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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. Iconic

    Iconic
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    I don't have much time so this will be short and to the point! Our next suspect is Deoxys-D. In order to vote, you must obtain a Glicko2 rating of 2000 or higher and a Glicko2 deviation of 55 or lower on the "OU (suspect test)" ladder. Bullet Punch Time:
    • Monday, February 4th: Suspect Ladder, called OU (suspect test) on Pokemon Showdown, is reset. Big thanks to Zarel for setting it up!
    • Wednesday, February 20th at 11:59 p.m. EST: The Suspect Round ends. A screenshot of the ladder will be posted at that time in the Voter Identification thread.
    • Thursday, February 21st at 11:59 p.m. EST: Special applications are due, and the voting thread will be posted. It will most likely be up for around two days.
    We'll most likely post a Voter Identification thread for your ladder screenshots later. Be sure to take a screencap of your rankings once you reach the 2000 +/- 55 threshold. Have fun friends!

    Keep in mind details are subject to change. I'm just getting the thread up now because the ladder has been reset. We are also taking suggestions for the np title!

    Credit to kd24 for the excellent song choice!

    [youtube]gdmHHoI9beM[/youtube]
  2. undisputed

    undisputed
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    oh boy, looking forward to this! hope we can have some good discussion this time
  3. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Will post some thoughts later. Should be an interesting round.
  4. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest Fletchinder FTW
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    Hmmm....So now Mr. DNA is our next victim.

    Deoxys-D is a hard one. I was against a Sect ban but was in favor of a Torn-T ban. Now, as for Deo-D. Let's get to it. Deoxys-D is pretty much the epitome of hyper offense. With those amazing defenses and usable speed to boot, it can set up numerous layers of Spikes and a Stealth Rock. This is its big point. It also has Taunt to prevent setup and shit, and Magic Coat to block faster Taunts. It can also be a Dual Screens user to soften hits for it and the team. Not to mention with its stats, Deoxys-D is very flexible with its EV's. Now, this is gonna be a hard decision. I don't know as to whether Mr. DNA is broken. Either way, this is gonna be an interesting suspect test.

    Also, make the name so that it has "DNA" in it.
  5. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
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    Awesome! This should be interesting.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    This was bound to happen. I am very curious to see what will happen, as i really have no idea how the community in general feels about it.
  7. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Currently experiencing a serious case of Dance Kittens
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    Well, here I thought that this thing was broken months ago when genesect could smack it with U-turn or Bug Buzz. Now the only sure-fire way to kill it is probably CB tyranitar. After all this time, it started to fade away, people started forgetting about it. I sure hope this gets banned, because otherwise Deo-D offense will get put right back to the forefront of the game.
  8. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Interesting... I'll admit, when I first saw this, I thought "Wow, we really have nothing better to suspect, do we?"

    After some thought, though, I think this might actually be a good idea. Deoxys-D is the face of Hyper Offense; without it, the teams will struggle much more since their easy go-to hazard setter is gone. This in turn might make Stall somewhat more viable....

    This is going to be fun... : )
  9. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star
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    I'm not even convinced Deo-D is especially good. Beating Rapid Spin seems very hard to me. Does anyone have suggestions on how they handle spinners?

    A serious problem with handling Deo-D is that it is almost impossible to outspeed and OTK it. Even things like Specs (timid) Hydreigon Dark Pulse don't work.
  10. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn the hidden heart of the ocean
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    this was a long time coming for sure. thank god we're finally at the point where we can put real suspects on the table and have a mature discussion about them. i'll touch just a few brief notes about deoxys-d before i start laddering. first, the space virus is the undisputed king of laying hazards in ou. when played correctly deo-d almost always gets two to three layers of hazards, meaning rocks plus one or two layers of spikes. its amazing bulk ensures that it's living even a choice band scizor's u-turn, which is mighty impressive. if that weren't enough to convince you, the thing has an extremely diverse movepool, even outside of sr and spikes. it gets taunt and magic coat to shut down other hazard users, seismic toss and night shade for consistent damage (lacks great offensive stats which is one drawback), thunder wave and toxic for status and being annoying in general, and the recently noticed skill swap (hi alexwolf) which basically ruins any chances espeon or xatu previously had of walling deo-d. finally, despite the low offensive stats i mentioned earlier, it can run some interesting offensive combinations with hp fire to pop forre for an ohko, thunderbolt to ohko offensive starmie, and psycho boost doing about 85% to tentacruel, none of which are bad options by any means. finally, unlike most bulky hazard setters like ferrothorn, forretress, and donphan, deoxys-d is actually pretty fast, capable of getting up to 306 speed, enough to outrun anything without 90 or higher base speed and a speed-boosting nature. in summation, deoxys-d is so bulky, so diverse, and so quick that in my mind it's a definite uber.
  11. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    This is really a tough one. Deoxys-D isn't the same as some of the past suspects we've had. He isn't like Genesect or Excadrill who could rip through unprepared teams. He isn't like Tornadus-T, who could outlast its counters and hit hard with 100% accurate STAB Hurricane. He isn't like Sand Veil Garchomp, who could give wins to unworthy players who happened to get lucky. The closest thing to Deoxys-D we've had would be Deoxys-S, who was banned because he was guaranteed to set up at least two layers of hazards. And if that were the only thing that Deoxys-S was banned for, then it would only make sense to ban Deoxys-D as well.

    But that wasn't the only reason we banned Deoxys-S. Part of what made him ban-worthy was his ability not only to go the "lead" route and set up hazards, but fool the opponent and use a more offensively inclined set. Deoxys-D can't really do that. Not only that, (and I really hate to appear biased here) but Deoxys-D is THE face of Weatherless Offense. With Deoxys-D gone, it would be another hard blow to that playstyle, which already pales in comparison to Sand/Rain/Sun Offense. Then again, that has nothing to do with whether or not Deoxys-D is broken, and won't affect my final decision if I get the requirements. Like I said, this is a tough one.
  12. Lord Moet II

    Lord Moet II formerly MOET
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    This thing is an absolute menace in ou. and to say it's the face of weather less teams is simply not true. I've abused this thing on sun teams with a fighting gem superpower to ohko ttar and guarantee my sun. I've also abused it on rain and with hydro support from both specs toed and keldeo making it hard to fight back. As much as I enjoy using it it's probably for the best that it goes.
  13. yee

    yee
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    For those unfamiliar with Deo-D and why it was suspected, what it does is-

    Max Hp / Max Speed
    +SPE Nature
    @ Rocky Helmet / Element Gem / Red Card
    -Stealth Rock
    -Spikes
    -Anti-counter move 1
    -Anti-counter move 2

    The reason you would think it was broken is because it can reasonably get up SR + a layer of Spikes and prevent you from getting anything- all of its counters are bait if it has the right anti-counter move. Psycho Boost / Taunt / Magic Coat / Skill Swap / Superpower etc., seeing Deo-D in Team Preview usually tells you nothing about which of the moves it's running, so it could very well be carrying the move that beats your counter. Granted, it might not be but how fun is that, you wait until Turn 1 when it reveals move 3 and 4 to figure out if you won or lost?



    The viable attempts to counter you may see are things like Tentacruel, Starmie, Xatu, CB Tyranitar etc. There are more, but just look at these as typical examples. All but Starmie are turned useless or near useless by the correct anti-counter move, and Starmie is Voltturn / Pursuit bait. If you end up down 5-6 or even up 6-5 with SR and a layer of spikes against you with nothing for yourself, you are at a practically insurmountable advantage in this metagame. You will either end up in one of those spots or at a fairly even / maybe slightly advantaged matchup, depending on how lucky you are guessing the Deo-D's moveset. Because there is no way to just play around it (you only get a guess as to what moves 3 and 4 are) and it can basically end the game within the first turns, I see no reason to keep it.



    Secondary thing, please don't worry if this nerfs weatherless offense. If it's unable to keep up with Sand / Rain / Sun because they are too powerful, they are very arguably broken on their own and we will get to them with almost no doubt. If you hold back because of this worry you are only hurting us.

    Edit- This post lacks my usual touch of flavor, so; I'm absolutely stunned we hadn't tested this yet. How is it possibly justified to test things like Garchomp / Kyurem-B which are just normal BW threats at this point when we still have things like this in OU to test?
  14. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn the hidden heart of the ocean
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    or, taking a different approach, you can just view deoxys-d offense as another form of weather since it's basically an entire genre of playstyles in itself, not to mention it's just as powerful as some weather and can even get a matchup advantage in certain scenarios (skill swap deo-d v. xatu sun, etc). agreeing with yee that if you think you're going to vote ou on deo-d because if it's banned weather will become even stronger; weather's already op, it can hardly get any worse.
  15. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    Nothing stops it from doing its job. Virtually impossible to OHKO, and it has all the tools it needs to beat its "counters". That alone means it should be banned IMO.
  16. SlimMan

    SlimMan

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    I've always been conservative about banning. I even think we should keep Drizzle/Drought, despite how badly they screw over the metagame.

    But for once, I am on the ban crew. Get this shit out of OU, and improve the meta already! I am so happy with the OU Council at this moment, you don't even know!

    edit: dang, just realized I won't be able to ladder up to reqs for like two weeks. ah well, at least it's just a single-day venture...
  17. .Robert

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    Tyranitar band is the only pokemon capable of ko Deoxys-D, iirc.. but even if Tyranitar KO it, Deoxys-D can put stealth rock up (is faster than tyranitar). So yeah, interesting round!
  18. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    Lol, Deo-D is a threat???

    I will say that on teams I don't use Sableye on that Deoxys-D is rather annoying. The way it can stack the hazards it can is nuts. Broken though? I dunno. I'm biased from having never had trouble with it thanks to Sableye (and that no one runs Magic Coat/Mental Herb Taunt thank God) and a Spinner on nearly every team. Also, little is as satisfying as watching Deoxys-D set up all the hazards it can, finally die from 4 or 5 hits as it sets them up, and then Starmie comes in to Spin away its work (scaring off the Gengars that Deoxys are often friends with), leaving the match 5-6.

    Again, biased badly to the not-really-broken side cause my teams are normally prepared for it just by happy accident. I love Volcarona. It's all its fault I'm so Deo-prepared.
  19. Goodra

    Goodra

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    Yeah I see this thing getting banned considering you can't one hundred-percent guarantee stop this thing from setting up thanks to it outrunning slower threats, reflecting taunt, surviving OHKO from everything bar Ttar or turning Magic Bounce against it's foes. My lead Gliscor can stop it dead in it's tracks with Taunt but most carry Magic Coat and only the less savvy players don't realize my Gliscor is ment to shut down hazard setup.

    If this thing really was the only Pokemon letting weatherless handle weather then I'm sure that will become apparent fast to everyone and weather will be suspect next.
  20. Enguarde

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    Not to mention that when running a Deoxys-D team you could potentially run an offensive Stealth Rock user alongside it. So if you realise that Deoxys-D will "only" be able to get up 2 layers, you can opt for spikes twice and gain Stealth Rock soon after its defeat. Being able to add even more pressure, that essentially means your opponent must switch out and let whatever they bring in faint, or sacrifice whats currently in play. Since after that amount of hazards early on, resistances can become somewhat negligible.

    When you can put your opponent at such a horrendous disadvantage like that early on, it pretty much defines an unhealthy style of play.
  21. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    As much as I hate to admit it (since I love using Deoxys-D), it really is unhealthy for the metagame. It's another Pokémon that's just too easy. Genesect was banned because it was "click Rock Polish and then sweep teams." Well Deoxys-D is pretty much just "click Stealth Rock and then Spikes, because nothing is going to be able to stop you." Even things like Xatu are stopped by the rare Skill Swap. Banded Tyranitar can OHKO, it is ridiculous that only he, Bug Gem Scolipede, and Weavile are capable of stopping him from doing his job. Two of those Pokémon are only barely viable.

    Plus, just take a look at team building. If "easy rain" teams are a problem, then "easy HO teams" are also a problem. DeoGar gets really old really fast. There's not much to separate that form of team building from Genesect-spam or Tornadus-T-spam. Maybe banning it will make team building more of a thought-provoking process, as there really is little reason to run a weatherless team without Deoxys-D. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I don't like Deoxys-D in OU. It's funny, I remember using him all the time in the early days of BW1 in UU before anyone realized he was as good as he is. Now I'm advocating for him to be moved to Uber.

    EDIT: Hey, I use Mental Herb Taunt Deoxys-D all the time. In fact, it's kind of a waste to NOT use that or Magic Coat. The best set I've used with him is easily Stealth Rock/Spikes/Taunt/Thunder Wave with Mental Herb. Shuts Sash Terrakion down completely, and Thunder Wave is a really underrated option on Deoxys-D anyway.
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn the hidden heart of the ocean
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    actually, seth, tons of people including me run magic coat or mental herb, which turns sableye from a hard counter into a free layer of hazards. as yee and i have both been emphasizing, deoxys-d can tailor its set to counter whatever the supporting cast has trouble dealing with - another reason why it deserves the boot.
  23. Goodra

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    I can vouch for this comment. As I said in my previous post many of my battles my lead Gliscor's Taunt would get reflected back thanks to Magic Coat. Leaving two layers of Spikes and a layer of Stealth Rock. At the very least I'd say eighty percent of the Deoxys-D's I fought had Magic Coat.
  24. Seth Vilo

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    While the statement looks to hold truth, here's the actual stats this month:

    Mental Herb 9.424%
    Magic Coat 25.047%

    Assuming they're not the same set that has both of these, that's a "whopping" 34.471% that Sableye can't completely stop. Meaning it cold-blocks 2/3 of all Deo-D sets in the weighted January stats. So not "tons".

    Still doesn't negate that fact that Starmie, number 12 on the ladder, kinda ruins most of the Deo-D+Offense teams (which, if you missed it, Deo-D is 39th on the January ladder...), assuming it's not the Choice Scarf Gengar-wielding 11.355% of teams Starmie has issues with.

    The fact that it can tailor its set to stop its would-be counters is also not a new thing to the world of OU. Say hello to Terrakion, who only can't touch Golurk with STAB and variable coverage moves in X-Scissor or Earthquake. Or Latios, who's getting a set with Earthquake added to its analysis so it can stop Heatran, Tyranitar or Jirachi. Or anything really that has any kind of slashes in its set analysis.
  25. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
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    Playing OU in PO before, I never really saw Deo-D nor did I use him, so I don't really know how good Deo-D is. However, using Deo-S A LOT in Ubers shows me just how important hazards are in securing wins. All right. This seems like fun! :) My first suspect test! I can kind of see this thing getting banned just because of its bulk and effectiveness in getting hazards.
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