Hazards win games? If you mean rocks+3 spikes then yes. But if you mean One single layer of rocks, which is all Deoxys-D is setupping most of the time then no.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard
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That's the problem with attacking Deo-D though Lavos, you don't have Taunt, and you don't even have all the 4th slot useful moves that let you fuck around with faster sweepers and Magic Bouncers. When using the variant you mention you have to carry something to take care of Starmie, Lead Terrakion, opposing Deo-D, DDNite, QD Volcarona, SubCM Jirachi, SubCM Latias, Sub Hydreigon, TR teams (which are a hard opponent for HO teams) and maybe more that i may be forgetting. You must also carry your own Rapid Spinner if you want to use SR weak Pokemon, or not use them at all, as attacking Deo-D can't prevent hazards from going up. This is why the non attacking Deo-D is the best set, because it needs way less support, and gives way less set-up opportunities.
Btw awesome thread title guys :D
To call this suspect test stupid is not very thoughtful. Though many may share the opinion of Deoxys-defense not being "ubers material", there is no reason to call the suspect test stupid. After all it's simply a test.
If the voters find it OP, then so be it. It will go ubers. The people here who say "this thing will NEVER go uber" obviously have not found the power of it, and therefore don't use it often. The reason its so good is, if a player forces many switches (like most decent players CAN do) the hazards will chip a lot of health away every time you are forced to switch or phazed.
The only reson Deoxys-Defense is getting tested is, basically because its one of the, if not the very best hazard setter. With rocks and spikes flying around all over the place, Deoxys is very underrated in my opinion.
If the voters find it OP, then so be it. It will go ubers. The people here who say "this thing will NEVER go uber" obviously have not found the power of it, and therefore don't use it often. The reason its so good is, if a player forces many switches (like most decent players CAN do) the hazards will chip a lot of health away every time you are forced to switch or phazed.
The only reson Deoxys-Defense is getting tested is, basically because its one of the, if not the very best hazard setter. With rocks and spikes flying around all over the place, Deoxys is very underrated in my opinion.
That extra ~12.5% on every switch in could very well mean the difference between a win and a loss, and it often is. If it weren't, Deoxys-D's setting hazards up consistently and maintaining momentum in the process wouldn't be as big of an issue to the competitive community, and this particular suspect test wouldn't be happening right now. But, alas, entry hazards are an integral and significant part of the game, and the best we can do to maintain whatever standard of quality we shoot for in OU (I've personally lost track) is to suspect test the monster that makes setting up said hazards almost too easy.
Thats debatable. You do realize you can do the same thing to your opponent too right? Thats why rocks are so common. The only time hazards can be game changing is in the situation where your field is filled with them. A single layer of rocks will hardly affect the outcome of the match.
One's opponent strives towards setting up hazards just as one's self because hazards are so game-changing. To imply that there being identical hazards on both sides may as well be the same as there being no hazards on the field at all is foolish. Different Pokémon are affected by hazards to different degrees, and not all battles (believe it or not) are fought with precisely the same 6 Pokémon on either side.
"My opponent has SR up? Pssh. My Reuniclus and Lucario couldn't care less. But my opponent's Volcarona will walk all over me if I don't set up Rocks myself..."
Just the same, there is such a facet to battling as Hazard Control: Spinners, MBouncers, and especially Hazard Setters, all of which are variables in the fight to keep hazards up. The goal of this thread is to discuss whether or not the premier Hazard Setter, Deoxys-D, is too good at what it does and deserves a ban to Ubers.
If you wish to be taken seriously in the overall discussion of the thread, then I'd suggest you quit resisting what everyone else with any competitive experience will tell you is the undeniable power of hazards and start providing actual reasons Deoxys-D shouldn't be banned for doing its job, setting hazards, so well.
I don't know about my opponents but I have lost count of the number of times I have lost a match because I wasn't able to get rocks out and my sweep was invariably stopped by Something stupid like sash or some heavily bulky pokemon (Example Conkeldurr) surviving with less than 5% and OHKOing back. My bulky set up Offence just needs that much to be broken down.
I have also lost count of the number of times volt-turn cores have manhandled my team with Rotom just whoring Volt Switch and Lando-T making a joke out of my Physical sweepers and U-turning out as I switch in a check... again, and again. Without any consequence at all. Just because I had failed to get rocks up.
And many many more where hazards have played Quite a major role in determining the outcome. And this is just rocks I'm speaking of here.
If I could guarantee that such factors do not interfere with my game, I can assure you that my win rate will go up... by quite huge a lot
There. You explained perfectly. There are a bunch of variables. Deoxys-D is one of them. Also id like to hear actual reasons why it SHOULD be banned. So far i heard none but i heard several that show how it is not broken. If this thing proves to be too much for the metagame then yes, ill totally be pro-ban, but so far its not what it looks like.
Deoxys should be banned because it outclasses every hazard setter in the game and allows teams to pump up a guaranteed SR every match even when faced with pokemon that are completely designed to prevent any hazards going up. Not only that, but deoxys takes extremely little skill to use at near its maximum level of play. No other hazard setter in the game can do this.
a lot of what i'm about to say might be repititive, but i couldn't take reading this whole thread when its so reptitive as is.
in theory, deoxys-d should be banned if 1) the hazards it gets up are gamebreaking and/or 2) if it can do so with as little support as possible.
when i look at the past bans, genesect could be thrown on to any team and win games, tornadus could be thrown onto any rain team and win games. deoxys-d mainly gets thrown onto any weatherless team and sets up. im just going to assume that sr + 1 or 2 spikes, despite being down 5-6, is an advantageous position.
past mons were banned because of overcentralization as well, like the rise of spdef heatran or need for a spdef steel who can take superpower like jirachi. for deo-d that mon is bug gem scolipede, and if you run that for deo-d then yes you are overpreparing, but thats your problem, thats not the only way to handle these teams. also bug gem scolipede is just fun to use, but thats another story..
what is annoying to me is the argument that deoxys-d has an answer for every check, and therefore is op. but its been said time and time again that deoxys-d cant run sr / spikes / taunt / magic coat / thunder wave / tbolt / psycho boost / hp fire with electric and fire gems and a mental herb, rocky helmet and red card. it can only choose a fraction of these, and odds are that it doesnt have the right combo for any given situation in a game.
but thats not the point - deoxys-d doesnt roll alone. support, pretty much from just gengar and weavile will make you win vs any rapid spinner barring really dumb play. dont say starmie - scarfgar and sashgar, or any weavile beats starmie (dont even mention scarf starmie that shits definetely not gonna get a spin off).
i'd argue that packing gengar and weavile is not overpreparing for a deo-d user either. weavile is a great utility check to tons of psychics and dragons, and venusaur who people have been saying deo ho is extremely weak to. ice shard is doing something like 70% avg, and with the hazards + lo recoil on venu its not living (dont even talk about bulky sub seed thats not a threat to ho). gengar is a solid mon that revenge kills as a scarfer (though pursuit bait) or beats other deoxys-d with sash + taunt, among other things.
so i just see deo offense as just another archetype, and is no way overpowered. if deo could run everything at once then it would be overpowered. but no it just uses its teamates to beat spinners. its teammates just happen to be good. it requires team support like many other threats and doesnt deserve to be banned just because it does its job with proper team support. stoutland sweeps with proper team support, so what.
in theory, deoxys-d should be banned if 1) the hazards it gets up are gamebreaking and/or 2) if it can do so with as little support as possible.
when i look at the past bans, genesect could be thrown on to any team and win games, tornadus could be thrown onto any rain team and win games. deoxys-d mainly gets thrown onto any weatherless team and sets up. im just going to assume that sr + 1 or 2 spikes, despite being down 5-6, is an advantageous position.
past mons were banned because of overcentralization as well, like the rise of spdef heatran or need for a spdef steel who can take superpower like jirachi. for deo-d that mon is bug gem scolipede, and if you run that for deo-d then yes you are overpreparing, but thats your problem, thats not the only way to handle these teams. also bug gem scolipede is just fun to use, but thats another story..
what is annoying to me is the argument that deoxys-d has an answer for every check, and therefore is op. but its been said time and time again that deoxys-d cant run sr / spikes / taunt / magic coat / thunder wave / tbolt / psycho boost / hp fire with electric and fire gems and a mental herb, rocky helmet and red card. it can only choose a fraction of these, and odds are that it doesnt have the right combo for any given situation in a game.
but thats not the point - deoxys-d doesnt roll alone. support, pretty much from just gengar and weavile will make you win vs any rapid spinner barring really dumb play. dont say starmie - scarfgar and sashgar, or any weavile beats starmie (dont even mention scarf starmie that shits definetely not gonna get a spin off).
i'd argue that packing gengar and weavile is not overpreparing for a deo-d user either. weavile is a great utility check to tons of psychics and dragons, and venusaur who people have been saying deo ho is extremely weak to. ice shard is doing something like 70% avg, and with the hazards + lo recoil on venu its not living (dont even talk about bulky sub seed thats not a threat to ho). gengar is a solid mon that revenge kills as a scarfer (though pursuit bait) or beats other deoxys-d with sash + taunt, among other things.
so i just see deo offense as just another archetype, and is no way overpowered. if deo could run everything at once then it would be overpowered. but no it just uses its teamates to beat spinners. its teammates just happen to be good. it requires team support like many other threats and doesnt deserve to be banned just because it does its job with proper team support. stoutland sweeps with proper team support, so what.
I'm wondering where you're getting this "Deoxys-D only ever gets a single layer of rocks". Is it because he's not that good? Or is it because you're packing very good answers because he's such a threat and therefore suspect worthy? Which is it?
EDIT: Lemme clarify here: For a long time my typical spinner was Starmie. It's fast and has good offensive presence, it's easily the best offensive spinner in the game, and I almost exclusively run some form of offense. In a generation and a half (I started playing competitive in October of 2010, the same time I joined Smogon), Starmie was all I needed. Even in BW1, before Deoxys-D became popular, Starmie did its job. It kept hazards off my field reliably and without me switching in half my team to take a ton of punishment. Starmie doesn't cut it against Deoxys-D. He would carry Rocket Helmet so I get KOd on the Rapid Spin and therefore don't remove the hazards. He would hit me with Seismic Tosses and KO me there and I would have nothing to stop him from dropping Rocks and several, if not three, layers of Spikes on me, sealing the game. Against virtually every other hazard setter, barring Ferrothorn, who is not even close to being as problematic as Deoxys-D, Starmie shoves it right up their butt.
On my last two teams I've been using Dual Screen Espeon, who by the virtue of Magic Bounce completely cocklestomps hazard setters... Except Deoxys-D, who STILL comes out on top sometimes. Granted, it is much less common now that Deoxys gets his hazards up, but he still almost always gets Rocks up. What does that say about Deoxys?
Very good point.
This actually Reminds me of the time I used to Carry a Lum Berry/Lefties Bulky CM Raikou in OU 2 months back JUST to counter Tornadus-T. (My team was already fire weak a lot, so no SpDef Jirachi)
You won't believe it how effectively he walls that shit. In fact I used to set up on that Dirty Torn-T's face as a metaphorical 'f*** you' to whatever brainless dude was hurricane spamming from the other end. And he was pretty useful against rain teams as well, given that he could easily outspeed Specs Keldeo and whatever whatever. But if it wasn't rain it was kind of a liability. Especially against Sand.
The same thing goes here. Magic Bouncers have the best chance to counter Deo-D (even they don't enjoy a 100% success rate.)
Does that mean it's mandatory for me to tote around one magic bouncer in every OU team I make to reliably check just a single Pokemon?
Regardless of what kind of team I have?
Regardless of what kind of pokemon I want to run?
What kind of Offensive/Defensive pressure I have in mind?
Pretty deal breaking I'd say.
Except Deoxys-D has an almost guaranteed Stealth Rock, as well as the ability to easily get up a layer of Spikes as well. In addition, it stalls your chances at getting up Stealth Rock (setting up alongside it just gives it more free turns to spike on your ass) with tools such as Taunt and Magic Coat. I know that personally, SR on the field is all iv needed to win games, and a layer of Spikes + SR is exceptionally tricky to play against when vsing an HO team. Oh yea, and it can shutdown set up opportunities with the threat of Thunder Wave / Taunt
Man why does the arguement come up EVERY SINGLE SUSPECT T_T. You would think its been done to death by now.
Anyway,
I am pretty darn sure that everyone knows Deoxys-D has only 4 moveslots and only 1 item slot, and thus cannot run all those moves. The problem is that the above moves / items all have a fair amount of usage, none of them are really not viable or suchlike, giving Deoxys-D a certain amount of utility. The problem I have when facing Deoxys-D is that I have 0 idea what item / moves its running, which means that sending in my Spinner / Taunt Terrakion / Scizor etc against my Deoxys-D could at the very least put me at a massive disadvantage. At worst, its just OHKOed my Scizor, or thunder waved by Terrakion, or is abusing Rocky Helmet against my Starmie. This makes handling Deoxys-D very risky, especially as "scouting" doesn't really work when every single free turn it gets is a free turn its getting down hazards. This, by itself, encourages people to bring more than one Deoxys-D check, because if they lack a counter / check for the Deoxys-D set they are facing, then they lose, its usually as simple as that. Quite frankly, I hate having to flip a fucking coin every time I ladder in OU and believe that its unhealthy fort he metagame.
Ginganinja bringing in a scizor isnt a good move logically. The best way to beat deo-d is to just blasted with boosted surfs/scalds or any other neutral move for a 3hko. Unless you scout the set then scizor is not good choice. Politoed in rain is one of the best deo -d counters because unless they have thunder they cant do anything back while being slammed with boosted moves. This is just like bringing in a dragonite on a heatran with hp ice. Sometimes super effective moves aren't the only answers for pokemon. I think people are over thinking this thing way too much. If we give every pokemon wierd items and hundreds of options than anything can be broken.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
probably because versatility is as good of an argument for banning a certain pokemon as anything. look at the past two or three suspect rounds, the things that got banned all had extreme versatility (genesect with like six different viable movesets, torn-t with a ton of different moveset options) and the things that stayed ou or were dropped to ou generally lacked versatility (kyurem-b supposedly only being able to spam outrage, keldeo having zero movepool). sure, for deo-d it's not the only argument to ban, since the thing also has fantastic stats and is the most reliable hazard setter that is still legal in the ou tier (hi deo-s), but it is certainly one of the better points that has been made thus far in the thread.
and i'd just like to point out while i have the time to do so, once again, the fact that deo-d can't beat everything with one set doesn't mean it is automatically unworthy of a ban. look at torn-t, it was purported to be this huge hitter and great momentum machine, when in reality it couldn't beat half its checks with one set and lost to the other half when running its other set, yet we still sent that thing to ubers by an overwhelming majority vote. what we need to be focusing on when looking at deo-d sets is the potential for it to overcome any of its suggested "counters" by running a particular combination of moves. add that to the fact that with very little team support, it has the ability to overcome any spinner game freak has to offer, and you have yourself a definitively uber pokemon.
Well we already determined that it cant beat all spinners. Putting a spin blocker on your team doesn't count because any hazard setter can do it with better synergy (ferrothorn loves gengar and jellecent). It cant beat donphan without psycho boost. It cant beat starmie. It cant beat forretress without hp fire or taunt. It has too much ground to cover to make it broken. Its a mess. I urge anyone to come up with 3 kill all set for deoxys-d. Just 3. The counters arguement is useless because mostly anything can kill it and all deoxys can do is stand by and not put hazards up. Hmm hazards....That is what the thread name is right? You aren't setting up hazards if you are attacking with the same special attack as a blissey. A similar pokemon to deo-d is crustle. With a custap berry you are guaranteed 2 layers of anything. Also you have to watch out for shell smash which can dominate its counters.
It isnt broken though. Not even OU. So maybe hazards aren't as good as we think. Is SR + 1 layer really game breaking enough to ban something for being able to do it? No.
Something has to be the best at everything
Any mon with a sash gets free rocks (id argue azelf being even more reliable in that regard)
3rd is just a complete lie. If you mean clicking sr and being done with it, then yeah. But the same can be said about a huge amount of other pokes. But if you intend to run skill swap/magic coat/anything non-hazard you need to predict. Period.
Azelf 100% of the time gets up rocks (and can usually explode or u-turn). Uxie can do the same but can use the yawn+uturn combo to do some huge momentum grabbing. Lead rakkion can always set up rocks and almost always prevent opponent. Etc
It's normal that Crustle isn't OU, since there is Deo-D (which can reliably bypass things like Sableye, unlike Crustle, which is 2HK0ed by far less things, which have ways to deal with magic bouncer/spinners, which is not setup fodder etc) or things like Ferrothorn ('cause hey, it seems more accurate to compare these two slow spikers, and Ferro is so better than compare it to Deo-D is worthless) And others.
It's Shell Smash is so bad in OU that I don't know why you mention it. Scizor, Bullet Punch, end of story if it is not at full health. Everything faster after it's boost (read : every scarfer with 75+ BS speed or every) too. Hippodown can beat it without many problems too.
It's Shell Smash is so bad in OU that I don't know why you mention it. Scizor, Bullet Punch, end of story if it is not at full health. Everything faster after it's boost (read : every scarfer with 75+ BS speed or every) too. Hippodown can beat it without many problems too.
The only issue being
If it can beat my starmie/forry/tenta/whatever (which is completely chance on the part of the deo-d user since there are so many pokes to beat)
Then my taunt poke shuts it down (as it does anyways)
Or i could just, you know, 2hko it with the many capable 90+ speed pokemon
Ok. Two interesting points. 1: And Reuniclus outclasses all trick room sweepers, and chansey outclasses all special walls, and mamoswine outclasses all ice shard users etc. Something has to be the best right? When did that became a ban argument?
2: It takes little skill? Youre implying even a newbie could effectively setup rocks + spikes with no trouble? So a newbie can outpredict the opponent and defeat its spinner with easy? Id like some proof on that.
I think several of us can agree on one thing: Deoxys-D is the best hazard-setter in the tier. As mentioned in the post above me, Azelf and Terrakion can also get Stealth Rock up with relative ease and both have access to Taunt. Both of these Pokemon require relatively less support due to the former having Explosion to act as a pseudo-spinblock while the latter has fantastic STAB's and offensive prowess to heavily damage spinners. Because of Deoxys-D's poor offensive stats and relatively low speed, it often has to either do one of two things:
As shown from the stance in my post, I believe that Deoxys-D is banworthy. The two other afforementioned common leads, Azelf and Terrakion, both have advantages over Deoxys-D for sure. Even though they do not have to run a spinblocker to give up Taunt, they do lack a few things. The first is Deoxys-D's fantastic bulk. Deoxys-D's defensives are, quite frankly, scary. Although base 50 HP is laughable, base 160 defenses are some of the best in the game. Everyone who has played in this metagame, which isn't every poster in this thread from speculation, knows that you cannot OHKO Deoxys-D. Banded Tyranitar fails to OHKO with Crunch by itself and has to rely on sand damage to finish off Deoxys-D. Many teams, if not the majority, lack a Pokemon to two shot Deoxys-D. Curtain makes my point quite clear.
Many people have been theorymon'ing counters to Deoxys-D, but in reality no such Pokemon can be called a clear-cut counter. As Curtains said, if you lead Scizor against it the Deoxys-D happens to have Hidden Power Fire, you can kiss your chances of winning goodbye. Thunderbolt.. Psycho Boost.. Magic Coat.. the list is rather extensive. Deoxys-D is a versatile Pokemon with SEVERAL options to use in Slot 3 and Slot 4 to make it de facto uncounterable. Take the previous mentions of Azelf and Terrakion as examples. If Deoxys-D has Magic Coat or Mental Herb + Thunder Wave, two very common items and move combinations, you will not be stopping it from getting multiple hazards. Magic Coat is often run with Red Card which shuffles your Pokemon attacking out so setting up with a faster Pokemon isn't a good answer either. I've seen many Gengar attempt to use Substitute Turn 1 versus my Deoxys-D and I laugh as I Stealth Rock and Red Card takes place. SubSD Terrakion setting up used to be a fad since it could get set-up relatively easy and then activate Salac Berry, but Red Card stops this issue. Volcarona is not hit super effectively by any moves that Deoxys-D will carry, but then again it fears the Thunder Wave. The set I popularized, Skill Swap in the 4th slot, even neuters Magic Bouncers from keeping hazards off of your field! How do you stop this menace known as Deoxys-D? The answer: you don't. Because of this, I will be voting to ban.
I have seen people in this thread scoff at the idea of Spikes making Deoxys-D broken, and I am astounded at how Spikes are underestimated. Assume that a team has 4 Pokemon weak to Spikes and all 6 neutral to Stealth Rock. Now assume that Deoxys-D sets up Stealth Rock + one layer of Spikes, something that typically happens in most matches. Although this is obvious Theorymon, I just want people to see the damage of the support Deoxys-D provides. If Stealth Rock + 1 layer of Spikes is in play with the afforementioned Stealth Rock and Spikes-weak Pokemon on your team, that is 125% damage if each Pokemon just switches in once. In more stall-based games, that number could double or even triple. If you're weak to Stealth Rock then the number will obviously go up as well. Keep in mind that 24% can be added if you set another layer of Spikes. In perspective, that is a little over 1/5 of your team's overall HP lost from just one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock. Deoxys-D sets these hazards exceptionally well without any counters.
Why should we not ban it.
- Forgo Taunt and run two offensive attacks to kill spinners, or
- Run a spinblocker alongside it to protect Deoxys-D's hazards.
As shown from the stance in my post, I believe that Deoxys-D is banworthy. The two other afforementioned common leads, Azelf and Terrakion, both have advantages over Deoxys-D for sure. Even though they do not have to run a spinblocker to give up Taunt, they do lack a few things. The first is Deoxys-D's fantastic bulk. Deoxys-D's defensives are, quite frankly, scary. Although base 50 HP is laughable, base 160 defenses are some of the best in the game. Everyone who has played in this metagame, which isn't every poster in this thread from speculation, knows that you cannot OHKO Deoxys-D. Banded Tyranitar fails to OHKO with Crunch by itself and has to rely on sand damage to finish off Deoxys-D. Many teams, if not the majority, lack a Pokemon to two shot Deoxys-D. Curtain makes my point quite clear.
He was arguing for Deoxys-D NOT being broken, yet he clearly states that you basically have to 2HKO / 3HKO it. What does this mean? If your Pokemonis slower, Stealth Rock and one/two layers of Spikes. If your Pokemon is faster, Stealth Rock and one layer. Deoxys-D's fantastic bulk coupled with Spikes, which Azelf and Terrakion do not have, makes it banworthy.
Many people have been theorymon'ing counters to Deoxys-D, but in reality no such Pokemon can be called a clear-cut counter. As Curtains said, if you lead Scizor against it the Deoxys-D happens to have Hidden Power Fire, you can kiss your chances of winning goodbye. Thunderbolt.. Psycho Boost.. Magic Coat.. the list is rather extensive. Deoxys-D is a versatile Pokemon with SEVERAL options to use in Slot 3 and Slot 4 to make it de facto uncounterable. Take the previous mentions of Azelf and Terrakion as examples. If Deoxys-D has Magic Coat or Mental Herb + Thunder Wave, two very common items and move combinations, you will not be stopping it from getting multiple hazards. Magic Coat is often run with Red Card which shuffles your Pokemon attacking out so setting up with a faster Pokemon isn't a good answer either. I've seen many Gengar attempt to use Substitute Turn 1 versus my Deoxys-D and I laugh as I Stealth Rock and Red Card takes place. SubSD Terrakion setting up used to be a fad since it could get set-up relatively easy and then activate Salac Berry, but Red Card stops this issue. Volcarona is not hit super effectively by any moves that Deoxys-D will carry, but then again it fears the Thunder Wave. The set I popularized, Skill Swap in the 4th slot, even neuters Magic Bouncers from keeping hazards off of your field! How do you stop this menace known as Deoxys-D? The answer: you don't. Because of this, I will be voting to ban.
I have seen people in this thread scoff at the idea of Spikes making Deoxys-D broken, and I am astounded at how Spikes are underestimated. Assume that a team has 4 Pokemon weak to Spikes and all 6 neutral to Stealth Rock. Now assume that Deoxys-D sets up Stealth Rock + one layer of Spikes, something that typically happens in most matches. Although this is obvious Theorymon, I just want people to see the damage of the support Deoxys-D provides. If Stealth Rock + 1 layer of Spikes is in play with the afforementioned Stealth Rock and Spikes-weak Pokemon on your team, that is 125% damage if each Pokemon just switches in once. In more stall-based games, that number could double or even triple. If you're weak to Stealth Rock then the number will obviously go up as well. Keep in mind that 24% can be added if you set another layer of Spikes. In perspective, that is a little over 1/5 of your team's overall HP lost from just one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock. Deoxys-D sets these hazards exceptionally well without any counters.
Why should we not ban it.
What prediction?
Its not like Deoxys-D requires a lot of prediction to use, if your moveset / item beats their Deoxys-D check, then you pretty much click SR, and then click spikes and shit until you die. Sure, I might be over simplifying things but Deoxys-D isn't really that tricky to use, just like most suicide leads.
I mentioned Scizor as an example pokemon that can check Deoxys-D with attack power alone, which people were mentioning as a way to check / beat Deoxys-D. I don't really agree that boosted Scalds and shit is the way to go tho. To begin with, you actually need Rain up (so you need to lead with Toed), which means that vs a Specs Toed / Defensive Toed, you are getting up 2-3 layers (not something you can just shrug off imo) while Scarf Toed limits it to just SR although it has to watch out for a Thunder Wave backed up with a SR and possible Spikes on the fp. Either way, vs toed its gotten down at least SR, likely Spikes as well and now can send in its "water resist boosting sweeper", set up, and provide enough offensive momentum to prevent the Starmie spin.
The only issue being
Yea I wouldn't have trouble with Deoxys-D if I ran 3 mons to beat it too (also note its still prolly getting up SR if you try and 2KO it). Again, no-ones denying you can beat each set Deoxys-D runs, its just going to utterly rape your team if you pack the wrong counter, and it can switch things up so dam easily.
EDIT
+1 to Bri who summed everything up that I wanted to mention, but 100% better.
suspect meta is full of dragmag and rain the true definition of a amazing metagame
im using my deo-d team but with crustle ove deo im currently sitting at number 1 on the ladder its hilarious. I actually get more hazards up with crustle then deo.
this basically sums my thoughts on deo-d
im using my deo-d team but with crustle ove deo im currently sitting at number 1 on the ladder its hilarious. I actually get more hazards up with crustle then deo.
this basically sums my thoughts on deo-d
I couldn't agree more with that quote, there are so many offensive threats in the meta atm that even without it there wouldn't be a decline in hyper offense, deoxys-d's usage stats alone are proof of that, I've seen tonnes of weatherless hyper offensive teams and a good 90% of them don't use deoxys.
Oh, and lol @ number 1 with crustle.
Except, im not running 3 (2) mons to beat it. A taunt user is just that and is completely optional (though no uncommon on things like terrakiona and such). And a spinner is, quite simply, a general staple on most teams. Saying that it is purely preparing for a pokemon used 5% of the time is absurd. And I most certainly hope that you don't consider running a pokemon with greater than 90 speed and some decent form of offensive presense in preparation for deoxys (as that is even more absurd)
Not to mention thaf a simple u-turn+90+speed pokemon chain beats it effortlessy
Beating it referring to it only getting rocks (which is completely unspectacular of a quality)
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