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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. Tassa

    Tassa

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    Main problem of Red Card is that, when you're OHKOed, it doesn't activate. I didn't see it mentionned in the previous pages, but it's worth to note, as it changes a lot of thing against setup sweepers.
    It's not in the object description (but as no effect of rapid spin when using kill user), and it might be a showdown bug, but in fact it actually limits effectiveness of Red Card's variant.
    Testing Deo-D to have a less theoric opinion, I faced one time a +4 Latias and another a +6 under a sub Terrakion. Even if I managed to win these match (and once these boosted threats were removed, the full layers I had set probably helped), I was let in a much worse situation than I thought being when using Red Card, forced to sacrifice a pokemon in order to force them out.
  2. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i'd like to jump in here and point out the important distinction between deo-d running taunt + mental herb, and deo-d running magic coat. taunt + mental herb is an option that completely takes the prediction out of playing around taunt users such as lead terrakion and sableye, since regardless of what move they end up going for, you just click taunt to neutralize them. on the other hand, with magic coat there's a certain element of prediction involved. if i have a lead terrakion out against magic coat deo-d, i can simply click stone edge three times and remove the threat as it tries in vain to magic coat the predicted taunt or sr. the risk to this is obviously that, since deo-d isn't taunted, it's free to not click magic coat and instead set up hazards or paralyze you or whatever it chooses to do with those free turns. however, the benefit of running magic coat is that your item slot is free, so you can use rocky helmet, red card, or whatever your heart desires. as i said in the auto weather thread a lot, teambuilding is all about trade-offs. with these two sets, the trade-off is mainly about whether or not the teambuilder has confidence in their prediction skills. just thought that needed to be noted.
  3. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Well great, here I thought that red card worked on contact, now I see you have to survive? That changes things against setup sweepers. But still, taunt can take them out, so I don't see too much of a problem with them. Only volcarona would pose any problems, but HO teams will always have a way to deal with this once deoxys is OHKOed. That's what the team wants, it's like a free explosion provided by the opponent.
  4. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    But this is the whole point about momentum! Nothing you are doing is preventing deo from getting up 1 layer if it's played properly, and the only ways to stop it from getting two are by using stuff that results in a tremendous loss of momentum! Because of deo-d's high speed and good defensive typing, the vast majority of band and specs users capable of 2HKOing it are slower, so you get 2 layers up anyway, 1 if you mispredict. This combination is very much not present with other hazard setters--as I noted, anything with a fire move outspeeds and 2hkos ferro and forry (ohkos a ton of the time too), limiting them to 1 or 0 layers.

    I also think thunder wave is not getting nearly enough hype here. Because the majority of deo-d run max speed since defensive investment is minimally necessary outside of HP, deo easily outspeeds the majority of set-uppers, and so can paralyze even substitute users. And the benefit is that it pays for the turn it uses if the opponent is faster--when the opponent leads a terrakion, you can use twave as the guaranteed best move (assuming mental herb, which is my favorite set). If the opponent taunted or rocked, you outspeed next turn and get 3 layers up while they SE you to death (not to mention that (.8 * .75)^3=.6^3=.216, so just over 1/5 chance that they'll hit you with SE 3 times in a row). If they use SE, you then outspeed them and can either set up 2 layers or taunt them and get 1 layer guaranteed, 2 if they waste a turn SRing. And if it's a band SE, you now outspeed and set up rocks while they are locked into SE with a paralyzed terrakion (not to mention that their chance to kill you even then is .8*.8*.75=.48 is less than half). Also, very few volc for example run max speed timid, so you can safely twave them as they QD, set up two layers at they fail to OHKO you at +1, and then revenge them with whatever you want since they're slowed.

    Also think lavos's post about magic coat vs mental herb + taunt is a great analysis, mental coat is hypothetically all you need but mental herb + taunt removes the need for prediction while sacrificing an item slot and being unable to block faster SRs. The item slot is worth it though imo, since you can use the extra moveslot for twave, which nullifies most set-up threats anyway as explained above.
  5. Nglittleguy

    Nglittleguy

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    First of all, if the ability to get hazards up makes a Pokemon ubers, then ferro, forry, etc should be sent too. I would argue that the ability to get up 1 layer of hazards is something that even sturdy forry can also do. The reason deo-s was sent to ubers was due to the dual screening abilities it possessed to support smashpass and baton pass pokes, not because of hazards.

    The most commonly run deo-d set is not the bulky set, so it actually is ohko'd by cb Scizor and ttar, not to mentioned fact that you don't have access to recover. Even if it gets two layers up, it will eventually fall due to the fast paced playstyle. Although it is true that deo will get at least 1 layer of hazards up if running the appropriate set, this does not make it ubers. As long as you are able to ko the deo, then you can always spin the hazards away. Remember that they are losing 1 pokemon put of a team of 6 when they sacrifice deo to set up a few layers of hazards, which through resistances and immunities are nullified by careful team building. This is also why we have moves such as rapid spin.

    In today's weather dominated metagame, deo d is truly a pokemon capable to reviving the usage of stall. It is not the metagame which has changed since gen 4, it is the preference of current players for a fast paced meta. Deoxys d was perfectly viable since the beginning of bw, yet it is only now that people are beginning to realize the potential of stall. Deoxy's classification as a fast hazard layer is no justification for sending it to ubers. Just as the metagame has adapted to sr, Pokemon which are considered viable must adjust accordingly with the tier. If a team cannot handle hazards, then it cannot handle the metagame.
  6. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    I'm sorry but I really don't think you have read this thread or know what you're talking about. We have compared deo-d to ferro and forry so many times and enumerated deo-d's advantages over them. Deo-d gets hazards on the field and keeps them there like no other, and is encouraging HO, not stall. IDK where you got that from, but please read the arguments in the thread that have been rebutted before :(
  7. Curtains

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    What a beautiful post. No theorymoning even needed. I think deo-d's basis for people wanting it ubers is that they don't like it. Now are suspect test to determine what is better for the game or for the likes of the community? Deo-d doesnt break the game not one bit. Genosect and even (even though i disagreed with the ban) tornadus has some gamebreaking properties worthy of debate. Most of the players say that they hate team building around it. Well there are a shit ton of other things that you have to pay attention to to build a successful team like rain...... Every successful team has an answer to rain. In gen 4 you needed an answer to stall. Now in gen 5 you need an answer to HO. No one can really pen point a set that breaks the game. The excuses are either 'it can use this item" or "i have this move". When using deo-d nothing is really automatic like the previous suspects. It is all about if you are lucky enough to have the right item to tackle your opponents approach to handling deo-d.

    Yet players that have reached reqs have stated that ferrothorn can do the same thing and deo-d is not a big deal. You can compare all you want but you are wrong. Stating an opinion as fact is wrong.
  8. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    The whole point is that deo is not being considered for a ban because of one set, but because of its versatility. No one gene set was broken, since every single one had hard counters. And however much you want to argue that people are arguing to ban it because they don't like it, I think you have to give the people here way more credit.

    Also @ yee's post if only there was a like button
  9. Curtains

    Curtains

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    yet its versatility is not really game breaking. Genosect had 2-3 distinctive sets. The main one was the choice scarf which was retarted and extremely hard to have an answer for. The other one was rock polish which was equally as dangerous. Deo-d has what? A red card. I don't even think its a good pokemon at all. It barely gets up sr and spikes and has piss poor attacking prospects. The only place it can do well is a lead spot and if you dont have the proper set you get owned. The burden is on the deoxy player to have the right item or moves not his opponent. Then you still only get SR and a spike up. Not to mention I also have a spinner you may or may not be able to damage.
  10. yee

    yee
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    Here is my response to Curtains. I knew it would need to be reposted at least once.

    Edit- In that case my response is go lurk if you're really that clueless. It's like you've literally never played a Deo-D game. I know I'm coming off offensive but that's just because of a lack of common pokemon sense, I'm not completely prejudiced against anyone because they think Deo-D isn't uber.
  11. Curtains

    Curtains

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    yeah i read it and it didnt make any sense. No one is running balls out move one switching a starmie, forre or tenta on a deoxys. You guys always don't recognize this. Tyranitar has always been superpower bait and chop berry crunch (sounds like a cereal lol) can do some damage and leave your deo open to an attack on move 3 which may result in you getting 0 hazards up and a weakened deo who cant attack worth shit. You do all that and you still have to deal with my spinner. Who is the pressure on again? I would be worried if i was a deo-d user and i had a red card and my opponent has the balls to taunt with his terrakion and ruin my set. Or if CB nite just owns me and leaves me down 5-6 with no answer for his spinner. Not to mention after red card is used that you better pray to fuck that you didnt allow me to randomly switch into a sweeper or another pokemon that can KO you.

    I think you need to go lurk because your assessment is incorrect. Please respond to my post intelligently instead of saying I haven't played the game or other pointless ad hominems.

    Well i have beaten i would think probably dozens of deo-d against solid ladder players over the last few months and it has never even made me flinch. Just kill it and move on. Not uber.
  12. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Just a little footnote if I might add. Many HO teams are still running around, especially at the top of the ladder. They have evolved to use Screens or resign themselves to a single layer. But in no way has HO become extinct or anything.

    For example X5Dragon's Hyper Offense RMT is a darn good example. Many people have laddered to the top 100 with it (including me, while learning HO peak #11), and this just goes to show that it is still perfectly viable.

    Their function basically remains the same. It's just that they just cannot take hazards for granted, which makes it possible to revenge/sponge blows more effectively with skillful play.
  13. Tassa

    Tassa

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    Mmm, note that the Terrakion and Latias didn't touch me, so it may be that I just wasn't enough careful about why it didn't activate. But it lets the fact that a lot of setup sweeper (namely Volcarona, Lati@s, Terrakion, Thundurus as I can think now, DDnite with Earthquake too) don't need to touch you so...
  14. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Complete BS. It will work for any move

    I can tell you from experience alone. My Volcarona using Bug Buzz has been phazed many times by the said Deo-D's. Even though it was a non contact special move.


    Even so just for the sake of clarification, here's the accurate item effect quoted

    http://veekun.com/dex/items/misc/red card
  15. Deglas

    Deglas

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    lol, most reliable mechanics source is wrong. The holder does not switch out.

    And I personally can attest, that it should activate on a KO. There was a glitch with Moxie that I discovered, where if a Moxie Pokemon KOs a Red Card Pokemon, the Red Card activates as usual, and the newly switched in Pokemon got the Moxie boost. I think that has been fixed though, and if Red Card isn't activate when fainted, that migh be an attempt to stop the glitch while they fix it.
  16. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    On PO, Red Card hasn't activated when DeoD is OHKOed. I speak from both setting up to +6 on Sub Terrakion and from being the one royally screwed from SubSD Terrakion. I don't know the mechanics nor will I be discussing my opinion of the suspect so take my experience for what its worth. Red Card doesn't active if the holder faints. Unless both that source and PO are wrong in those mechanics...
  17. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    You might want to.

    a) check the link
    b) brush up your grammar

    It is meant to be interpreted as

    it switches out (the opponent)for another random, non-fainted Pokémon in its party

    I think that much is pretty obvious. No one is confusing it for eject button or anything. That would be retarded TBH
  18. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Dude, it says "When the holder takes damage directly from a move and does not faint, it switches out for another random, non-fainted Pokémon in its party.
    This effect does not activate if another effect prevents the holder from switching out."
    "Prevents the holder from switching out"
    Before you go and insult people, maybe consider the fact that they could be right.
    You're right about the contact thing, though, whether the attacker physically hits the holder or summons rocks to hit it or uses fire is irrelevant, so long as it causes direct damage.
  19. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Oh boy.

    I've started some huge discussion about contact with a simple error. When I said "on contact" I meant "as soon as the move hits", be it a special, physical, non-contact, or contact move. Apparently, it activates as soon as the damage finishes and the holder is not OHKOed? There seems to be a lot of speculation about this, though, be it various glitches or other evidence. I still believe red card to be deoxys' strongest item, as if it carries taunt Volcarona or SD scizor will be able to OHKO it after one boost. This still gives time to set up hazards/survive and switch them out. It also has the benefit of switching out a spinner and letting you get up a layer of hazards against them. From there you can just switch right into your spinner and you have hazards up. Even if starmie kills your gengar on the switch, you have hazards up and positive momentum.
  20. Deglas

    Deglas

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    Just tested Red Card ingame, and Red Card does not activate if the holder faints. So PO has it right if things are not being forced out.

    EDIT @ Soul Fly: S'okay
  21. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Oh okay. that bit? I just noticed now. Sorry :P.

    But the topmost description in the site has it right. It is just the second description which is wrong. Pretty obviously a paradox. Must've meant any ability or move which when effected annuls the phazing out.

    But I still apologize to Delgas nonetheless. My bad. Sorry!


    Having said that it's pretty straightforward. Deo-D takes and hits and survives then the attacker is promptly phazed out, no exceptions to attack type or contact category.
  22. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Well, since PS still won't let me on I'll go ahead and share my thoughts just without the results of some of my experimental testing. (Been using Custap Forry and no Ghost type on my HO team successfully but haven't had enough play time to share it in detail)

    Deo-D consistently sets up at least SR + Spikes in the first couple of turns. These two layers allow the multitude of massively offensive Pokemon in the OU metagame to overcome typical counters and put immense pressure on the opponent. Here are some calcs to show the effectiveness of SR + Spikes.
    Show Hide

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Toxicroak: 353-416 (95.92 - 113.04%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 328-386 (78.09 - 91.9%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 286-337 (72.77 - 85.75%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 320-378 (76.19 - 90%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 265-313 (67.25 - 79.44%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 307-364 (87.21 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-307 (37.07 - 43.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 260-307 (36.93 - 43.6%) -- 89.84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    You can fiddle with the calculator yourself to find the rest.


    This is why Deo-D should be banned and why you can't compare it to things like Forry (outside of Custap) or Ferrothorn. See this list for typical team choices that can limit Deo-D to only SR. (Magic Bounce works for Standard Deo-D but they are far from something I want to consider on each of my teams)

    Real quick, please stop calling Deo-D stall. It's a support Pokemon, the bulky base stats are irrelevant. It is actually pretty mediocre on a Stall team but I won't bother going into that for now, just take mine and every other seasoned stall player's word for it. On the subject of Deo-D vs Stall, Stall has the worst match-up as the super speedy Taunt (from the sluggish stall team's perspective) shuts down their main form of damage (passive or it isn't Stall) while the massively aggressive team and the broken aspect mentioned above means that Stall has just about zero chance to spin later. Even if it does find the opportunity, giving HO a free turn is very risky especially after the significant damage you had to put up with before hand.

    Personally, I don't like this versatility argument but I'll address it real quick. Basically, the reason why Lavos and co. like to argue about how various viable Deo-D sets beat traditional counters is because they are looking at Deo-D from the point of view of one trying to deal with it. It is very difficult to build a team that can consistently deal with Deo-D as a solid answer to one set is setup fodder for another. The reason why others counter argue with the point concerning Deo-D's limited item/moveslots is because they are looking at it from the point of view of one trying to use Deo-D. It's all fine and good that LO HP Fire Deo-D gets rid of Scizor but the standard Taunt + Magic Bounce set that they are using is out of luck, they will only be getting SR up that match (if they opt for Lefties/Rocky Helmet). Neither group is wrong, they just aren't arguing from the same perspective.


    I want to go back to the standard (in this case Taunt + Magic Bounce) Deo-D's item slot. I've really warmed up to the idea of Red Card on the set as it is a really cheap way to throw your dice and beat typical checks. (since he'll be getting up SR for sure so no counter outside of MB which Red Card doesn't help much with) Although it doesn't activate when Deo-D is KO'd, his massive defenses and fastish Taunt makes sure just about nothing boosts to that point. If you look at the OU tier 30 out of 53 Pokemon are commonly slower than Deo-D. (ignore Venu in case of Ninetails leads) This means that even if you lead with one of the Pokemon in the above list, there is a strong chance that Red Card will force out a Pokemon slower than Deo-D that will be unable to prevent the second layer from going up. I would try to give an actual percentage of the total usage of such Pokemon but I'm not that good in Math. Using this 30/53 raw number I'm generalizing that about 3 members on a team are slower than Deo-D. That's not too much a long shot seeing as stuff like Scizor, Rotom, and a weather starter pretty much gives you 3 right there. So assuming you lead with a faster threat (let's say Gengar) you will have a 3/5 or 60% chance that Red Card will drag out one of your three slower teammates. If you maintain 3 members are a strict limit and you lead with Scizor then you have a 2/5 or 40% chance to have a second layer be setup on you regardless of your U-Turn. Obviously, real teams won't be so strict on this number but it goes to show that, in spite of the short list of viable answers, Deo-D still has a strong chance (it's like trying to hit with Hypnosis in the case of a Scizor lead) to get up two layers. This is why I think Deo-D is consistent in getting SR + Spikes up, even while using the very predictable standard set.
  23. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Melee Mewtwo, that is one of the best posts I've seen in this thread. I completely agree that deoxys should be banned based on the impact it can cause with just SR + spikes. No matter what you think about deoxys, you have to look at the end of this post and see the numbers. You then realize that just looking at percents deoxys has an extremely high chance to get up SR + Spikes, and this is a high chance against things that are trying to take it out. Against its "counters" it can still set up a pretty much guaranteed SR, and against anything not designed to take it out will probably be taking three hazard layers.
  24. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Deoxys D+5 poweful sweepers is broken judging by what ive been reading. Saying Deoxys D is broken implies you can just slap it in any team and steamroll your opponent.
  25. Tassa

    Tassa

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    Being broken does not necessarly implie that it will be extremely effective in any team. I can take Blaziken, Magikarp, Luvdisc, Caterpie, Unown and Skitty, even if Blaziken is broken, for sure I'll lose against any serious pokemon player.
    When you do a 6vs6 match, you cannot account one pokemon to do all the job no matter what you have with it. It's even more true when your pokemon is powerful by its support and not by it's raw power.
    Being broken means that even if your opponent know what you'll do (though he cannot be sure if you run something to counter his counter/predict WHICH deo set he faces), and even if he packs something to counter you, he'll not be able to stop your pokemon to do its job reliably. And this job has to have gamebreaking effect. (Calcs provided by Melee Mewtwo gives an idea in what it is)
    Note that if you pack 3 counter or something like Skill Swap Espeon, you'll may be able to stop it nearly always, but now you fall in overcentralization.
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