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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. Frochtejohgurt

    Frochtejohgurt

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    Your last sentence is wrong. Many of the the banned suspects were banned, because they were only broken under certain circumstances. for example Excadrill was only broken on sand teams and Tornadus-T only on rain teams.
  2. boo836

    boo836

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    Do you guys remember when people wanted entry hazards to be banned? This feels just like it, seeing as that's what people seem to keep complaining about. Although it isn't the sole reason why Deoxys-D is being discussed, it seems to be the one part almost everyone focuses on. Melee Mewtwo for example, just gave a few calculations of how really strong sweepers can OHKO walls after a layer of SR and Spikes. However, they are ignoring that there are multiple Pokemon that can set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes. Off the top of my head, Forry, Ferro, Skarm, Crustle, Smeargle, and Omastar can use both moves. Out of these six, three can easily abuse Sturdy+Custap to ensure that they have two layers of hazards. One of them can also shut down an opposing Pokemon with Spore. The other two are just bulky Pokemon. If Deoxys-D is gone, ten people will just abuse another Pokemon that can do the same thing.

    Of course, the real reason Deoxys-D was put up for discussion is because of the other things it can do (basically Dual Screens and lol Cosmic Power). Just as I said before, nothing will stop anyone from using something else. Mew, Azelf, Bronzong, and Virizion come to mind.

    So instead of trying to get rid of stupid bullshit, how about we actually get fix the metagame?
  3. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Well if it makes a certain playstyle a near no-brainer with a decisive advantage.

    Drizzle + 5 swift swimmers was considered broken. Swift swimmers by themselves are no way broken. You couldn't just slap kingdra, Kabutops and Ludicolo together in any team and hope to be rad at OU. But pair them up with Politoed and we have a very OP cocktail.

    Don't try to judge Deo-D like you would judge Torn-T or Genesect.
    It's a very different creature, not an offensive powerhouse.


    Oh god comments like these are starting to sound like a broken record. We get through these and someone else MUST make this same argument again.


    NO we HAVEN'T ignored any of these if you have cared to read the previous 15 pages. ALL these substitute pokemon you've mention have been discussed... very thoroughly.
  4. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    This is just awesome. You summed up that up really well.

    Being a part of "Lavos and Co", I am, as MM states, looking for ways to beat Deo-D. The thing I look for when doing these tests is in the teambuilding itself. I look at Ferrothorn and see it being shut down by Fire types, Fighting types, and users of Taunt, and I see that while Ferrothorn is without a doubt a great Pokemon, it can be beaten with a few minor changes to a team. I look at Terrakion, and see it inable to switch into the Rain boosted attacks in this meta, being prone to revenge killing, and having a rather unreliable STAB, and while it is an incredibly strong Pokemon, it generally has several things that can take it on, so I don't see it as broken.
    With Deo-D, I see it having multiple checks, but basically all of them can't beat it all the time. It has no real counters, and all of its checks can be beaten if it happens to have the right moves, which are all real, viable choices. I look at my team, and I ask, how can I shut down Deoxys-D every time? Do I need to use a Taunter, Rapid Spinner, Bander, and a set up mon, to cover all of Deoxys' viable sets? How do I tell which one to send in first? Can I recover from making a mistake? The answer to these questions, as I see them, is resoundingly negative. That's the point of HO, in that one mistake early on can have massive effects on the endgame. It is possible to lose Forretress to Deo-D and still win, but I don't like the odds at all.
    So. Yeah. There're my thoughts on it. Don't really have much else to say, so I'll leave it at that for now.
  5. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego This is what is technically known as a Firecat
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    Except that sturdy + custap doesn't prevent you from taunt. Or spinners. Deoxys, while I hesitate to say this, can protect itself from both, with magic coat and red card. Also, offensive moves etc etc but I don't think this is the proper set to use. One of them that can use spore does not have base 90 speed and base 160 defenses. It doesn't matter that other things CAN set up stealth rock and spikes, it's the fact that none of them can set them up with such guaranteed ease.

    And no, deoxys is not suspected because of cosmic power or even screens. it is suspected because of its guaranteed ability to set up hazards in the face of anything. It has the tools to beat every one of its countermethods, albeit not all at once, but all are viable and there.
  6. boo836

    boo836

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    Except those sweepers don't even rely on Dual Screens as much as Kingdra and co. relied on Rain. Comparing a two turn set-up so something lives long enough for an attempt at a sweep to an ability that acts as a permanent +2 in Speed to Swift Swimmers and boost in STABs is a little bit silly. Besides, if Drizzle+Swift Swim was comparable to Screener Deoxys+5 Sweepers, then we might as well ban Dual Screens or something (which is ridiculous).

    Saying "Use taunt" doesn't exactly cut it. You could easily just run a Magic Coat/Bounce user for Deoxys-D and stop it that way. I mentioned Spore only because it had multiple options, and one of the most common ones is to completely shut down a Pokemon and set up at least one layer of hazards. If they stay in, then there's probably two layers.

    Red Card doesn't really ward off Spinners, and it's pretty damn easy to play around. Once Red Card is gone, then spinners are just as much of a problem with a Deoxys team as they are a Forretress team. As for "beating" those countermethods, you're talking about using some of the most gimmicky things ever. The same could be said for quite a few Pokemon, like Garchomp, Dragonite, Thunderus-T, or Keldeo.

    You can't just assume Deoxys is running @:Red Card/Rocky Helmet/Light Clay/Leftovers/Mental Herb/Life Orb/Electric Gem with Spikes/SR/Taunt/Mirror Coat/Hp Fire/Thunderbolt/Psycho Boost/Light Screen/Reflect as the moveset.


    They've been mentioned, but the only responses I've read have been "Taunt shuts it down" or "spinners." I've read several pages (though I've been a bit too busy to read each and every comment), and I didn't really see any notable discussion about it.
  7. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego This is what is technically known as a Firecat
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    First off, I think any set that is not

    Deoxys-D @ Red Card
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Spikes
    - Magic Coat

    is inferior to others. I believe this to be the best set, and while others may disagree on the best moveset, they all agree on the fact that nobody thinks deoxys can run all of these at once. Really. So many people have said "but deoxys can't run all of these at once, it can't be broken!". Obviously it can't. But deoxys needs only a few moves to demolish its counters. Many of the items/moves you list cover the same bases, so it's redundant to put them both there, as well as some of the moves not used at all. Leftovers? Screens? Everyone agrees these are bad ways of using deoxys and hence do not talk about them. Nobody thinks that deoxys can run all of this at once, because it doesn't need to.

    Take a look at the set I've posted. The only thing that will 100% prevent deoxys from its job is a magic bounce user. Let's face it these are garbage anyway. You want to beat them instead? Replace Magic Coat with skill swap. You now lose against taunters, but beat magic bounce users. Do you really want to have to run both of these to beat deoxys?

    Setup sweepers and some offensive powerhouses give this thing a bit of a problem, but none can OHKO deoxys before a boost/are slower, in which they are taunted the turn they set up. Even then, most are unable to OHKO deoxys after the boost, only volcarona manages this. They are then sent out by red card and hazards go up.

    Spinners: assuming starmie, since it's really the most common and most talked about, if you lead with it, what do you do? You attack, because you are faster and don't want to spin on nothing. So let's say you surf, you're sent back by red card, Sr goes up, you switch into starmie next turn, spikes go up, the deoxys user switches into gengar. 2 layers are up against a spinblocker, you're in a bad position. Even if you predict the gengar switch you can't OHKO, in which you are dealt with by a combination of scarfgar + whatever sweeper the HO team sends out next. Forretress pairs better, but cannot stop a layer of SR going up with all of the above factoring in. While deoxys may not be able to set up full hazards all the time, it can maintain a huge amount of pressure and begin the HO sweep cycle while putting up hazards.

    The point I make is that these scenarios involve direct counters aimed to prevent deoxys from doing its job. Do most of them work? NO! Even when you have a best-case scenario, such as CB tyranitar, CB scizor, or leading with a starmie, the most used spinner, you can't even prevent SR, and in starmie's case SR plus spikes. This is assuming you led with your deoxys "counter". I don't really understand how these things can be called counters anyway, because they don't prevent hazards.

    Now, I know the counter argument for this is "lots of poke can guarantee SR"! Yes, this is correct. The difference is that these pokemon (azelf, aerodactyl, forretress) can do this only against "normal" leads, such as politoed, ninetales, rotom-wash, etc. Against counter-hazard strategies, such as starmie leads or prankster taunters, these "guaranteed SR setters" fail to do their job, where against even its best counters, deoxys guarantees SR and then some.

    I'm getting really tired of posting pretty much the same argument every few pages or so. Every time I do this I think that people will actually understand, but no, they seem determined to make me reply again and again with my same argument, saying exactly the same thing. Please, people, do yourself a favor and read opposing arguments thoroughly before you post.
  8. supersie

    supersie

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    This post might have already been posted but if we are testing Deo-d cause it can always get hazards up, why not ban Focus Sash and hazards on the same pokemon or hazards altogether
  9. GatoDelFuego

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    Because there are several ways to prevent hazards going up against these focus sash users, and deoxys gets nearly all of them as well as ample moveslot and item space to abuse them. It's not that it can always get hazards up, but that it can do so in the face of opposition that would halt other hazard users in their tracks.
  10. boo836

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    I'm going to admit that I assumed people were referring to Dual Screens when they said Deoxys+5 sweepers was broken, mostly because it was the most reasonable statement. The random moves such as Psycho Boost and Electric Gem Thunderbolt were among a few of the more silly moves I saw in arguments. Using stuff like Electric Gem Thunderbolt will leave you wide open to much more, just to beat Starmie.

    The rest of this just seems to be little more than a complaint about hazards. You could easily activate the Red Card, switch out, and then switch in something that threatens Deoxys. If it sets up, use your spinner. If they bring in a spin blocker, then it's really no different than if Forretress came in and set it up. The only difference is that Deoxys-D finds it a bit easier to set up than Forry or Skarm in most cases. Taunt may shut them down, but they (especially Skarm) can still lay down hazards on the switches that they can cause. Really, the only difference is that using Skarm or Forry slows down the game by a turn or two.

    Deoxys-D doesn't reliably stop the best method for getting rid of hazards-spinning. Nor does it stop Magic Bounce or Magic Coat users. You still require a spinblocker no matter what. Gengar is incredibly risky, being OHKO'd by LO Hydro Pump, and Deoxys takes just under half from it. Starmie isn't even the only Pokemon that beats Deoxys-D. Specs Latios pretty much kills it with Draco Meteor, Scizor puts a huge hole in it (Bug Bite OHKOs), CB Tyranitar can OHKO it, Garchomp sets up and hits with Outrage, Gengar 2HKOs, Terrakion has the potential to OHKO it with +2 Stone Edge. Although it's not the best, Rotom-W also gives Deoxys a big "fuck you" with Trick. Thanks to Red Card, Deoxys will most likely get Stealth Rock and Spikes up, but that's it.

    So yeah, there's 6 Pokemon in the top 20 that can effectively take on Deoxys (9 in the top 25). 5 of the 6 and 8 of the 9 have the potential to OHKO or 2HKO after a turn of setting up, and again, only SR and Spikes goes up. Deoxys is a guarantee that hazards go up until a spinner arrives, so if it's really banworthy because of two layers, then perhaps we should take a look into hazards themselves.
  11. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Quick Mention: Double Dance Thundyt pressures DeoD so badly lol. It's a good check thought I'd mention it

    Also I'm agreeing with Boo, though Lavos has a good point
  12. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Adamant Cloyster can 2HKO fast Deo-D so it only gets rocks up after taunting you and can Shell Smash+OHKO sDef Deo-D.
    To go along with the Double Dance Thundyt comment.
  13. taxi driver

    taxi driver
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    here's reqs
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    used crustle over deo-d only a little bit less effective only taunt user i saw was tera which i just 2hko. I stayed in the top 10 the entire time even with my crap internet, reuniclus is such a beast right know sad i didnt see one on the suspect ladder.

    none of the arguments for banning deo-d really convinced me it was more or less theorymonning of weird and not used sets i've never seen and crappy examples of deo-d getting every hazard up and ko'ing spinner were the opponent played bad. Every good team should have a way of beating deo-d weather is spinning,magic bounce,ohkoing,our outspeeding and 2hkoing which isnt hard.


    my deo-d team was so weak to dd thund-t then i used crustle :pimp:
  14. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

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    ^Current Top player (biter24) on the ladder has a Reuniculus too. And he was at like 2400 +- 82 or so for awhile. So seems like you are right about Reuniculus.

    Rain offense has not been super oppressive on suspect so maybe this is why Reuniculus is doing well?
  15. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i really don't get what the big deal about reuniclus is, i don't think i've ever made a team that lacks a check to the trick room set, and calm mind is super irrelevant with such big offensive threats to it running around like scizor (which is #1 in usage). but back on the tr thing since that's the way more common set, i think the reason you're not seeing way more usage is that basically its biggest counter, jirachi, is still hovering up there in the top 5, plus scizor is currently #1 in usage so that's not helping its case either. and in addition to that it really lacks power and doesn't ohko a ton of stuff even with the help of rocks because of its mediocre (for a sweeper) 125 base satk. for example, shadow ball isn't even ohkoing latios after rocks which is pretty sad since specs latios will be taking reun down with a dmeteor and there's nothing it can do about it. in order to sweep with reuniclus, you need to essentially remove sdef rachi, which anyone will tell you takes more than a smile, and then weaken scizor, latios, and whatever else is standing in the way of you and a sweep. i guess my main problem with the thing is that it requires so much stuff to be dead or thoroughly weakened in order to have a chance at sweeping, and even then it's often reliant on consecutive focus blasts hitting etc., which is never a solid plan for winning because of trash accuracy.

    and as for crustle, i really like the thing and i've been using it as a substitute for deo-d on ladder, i just can't stand how bad it is against stall teams, especially those with a faster taunt user (jellicent, terrakion, sableye) or forretress, which crustle can't do jack to, and since your only real spinblocking option is gengar there's not a great way to deal with forre outside of wasting teamslots on magnezone or gothitelle. it also has trouble with tentacruel, even though like taxi driver i run earthquake, it's still barely a 2hko even with max attack on crustle against your standard defensive tenta, and rain dish puts it out of 2hko range, plus it can scald you down to sturdy, protect when the custap activates, then spin and kill you plus remove all hazards, which is super lame. it does handle starmie well though. basically what i'm saying is that crustle may have its uses but overall it's just a subpar deo-d replacement.
  16. Nglittleguy

    Nglittleguy

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    What are deo-d's advantages? Speed, bulk? How does deo keep hazards on the field when it goes down so quickly? You are not trying to retain the hazards, you are merely tossing them onto the field. I have yet to see a deo d in ou run for HO purposes. You may correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are using this against a stall team, they will most likely be able to spin your hazards away. If you are using this against HO, you would have lost 1 poke for sake of hazards which may or may not affect the opposing team, which should be built to handle hazards anyways.
  17. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
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    I gotta agree with Lavos, I've never really had a problem with opposing reuniclus'. The thing is is that I love the idea behind TR reun, it seems like the ultimate "anti-offense" 'mon and maybe sometimes it is, but an offensive team barely gives it any room to breath and thats the only type of team its going to be effective against. If reuniclus was just a little bit stronger it'd be great! But it just seems like one of those 'mons where its only awesome! when it has all the right support, which can be said for pretty much every OU threat. Plus, sometimes your own TR comes back to bite you which is the worst xD

    Also I didn't realize that biter24 was top of the ladder, I didn't really find his team that threatening, and reun was practically a no show in my two battles with him, just for reference. Though in one of them Reun had a lot of bad para hax..

    In the little amount of time I've spent on the suspect ladder I've actually enjoyed myself more than on the OU ladder. I really didn't think it'd be much of a difference at first, to be honest, but Deo-D really just puts so much pressure on teams from the get go, no matter what your team is like.
  18. Magcargo

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    Deoxys-D is quite a pokemon. It has many redeeming traits, such as being a great lead, while also preforming well as a bulky spiker. It has many advantages as a spiker, but faces major competition with ferrothorn and skarmory. With low attacking stats, you would think that the alien has no offensive presence, but if you have a life orb and invest in special attack, you'll be quite suprised. It can OHKO haxorus, salamence and sand terrakion with pyscho boost after SR. I don't support the ban because deoxys-d is an effective pokemon, but certainly not as broken. Like all spikers, it can set up hazards, but is afraid of xatu, starmie and others. It can get past them however.
  19. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Guys, guys guys.

    I have been playing around in the ladder with a few teams (ugh, my rating has suffered terribly) but I have found another uncoventional way to scout Deoxys-D while not giving it the chance to lay down spikes.

    This has served my purpose brilliantly......




    [​IMG]

    Smeargle @Focus Sash
    Own Tempo
    Timid
    80 HP / 96 Def / 80 SpD / 252 Spe
    - Baton Pass
    - Shell Smash
    - Magic Coat
    - Spore


    Pretty self explanatory.
    Magic coat is an excellent scouting tool, using it in the first turn allows Smeargle to lay deoxys-d bare. Rocks/Spikes/Taunts and T-wave all get reflected back in the first turn if there are any, and Sash allows it to survive any Gemm'ed anti counter/psycho boost it may have. And with little luck I can get rid of Magic Herb. This pretty much allows me to guess Deo-D's spread and so it leaves itself open to counterattacks. If it is the slower taunter, spore pretty much leaves it GG (SS + BP), if it's the fast offensive type I can survive with sash and then proceed to check it with Volcarona (who can OHKO non defensive speedy spreads) and proceed to sweep after a quiver dance boost. OHKO doesn't allow Red Card to activate which is always a plus.

    The only variant that gives me a problem is Magic coat+ Mental Herb + Timid, because it ouspeeds Smeargle but since these sets usually don't have any reliable damage beside Night Shade, I can still scout them out with a little prediction.

    It's not a surefire 100% check, but At least I'm on level ground, and the person using Deo-D ALSO has to indulge in mind games along with me. He can't just sit there and smirk, waiting to surprise me with his item+moveset combination.




    But then Smeargle again is a pretty gimmicky pokemon, and it is terrible with Sand/hail (sash broken = useless). As of now I'm running a Smash Pass team so it works fine, but it isn't ubiquitous enough to be included commonly in OU teams tbh.



    A little research from my side to work out ways to neuter this broken thing.
  20. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
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    If this is what people use to beat Deo-D, no wonder they think it's broken. Nothing so elaborate is needed.
  21. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    I know. But this is one of the VERY few ways IMHO that I can get away with guaranteed no hazards at all. Unlike magic Bouncers, skill swapping also (obviously) doesn't help with this. One of the very few things which can shut down Deo-D + capitalise on the opportunity with reliable consistency. I'm just showing how darn specialized you'd have to be to stop it.
  22. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    It's at best a 50/50 against a classic Deoxys-D, this set is just not even good for the job you give him. And it's gimmick as hell because Deoxys-D is really not played enough to justify the need to take a team slot just for it.

    Seriously I don't know what you're trying to prove by posting this kind of stuff, and I really don't see your point.
    You're trying to say that we're forced to play this kind of crap to not have a bad matchup Deoxys-D ? Do you really think that we're that easy to fool ?

    Oh I see... But any pokemon with Magic Coat can do that and... No, wait, why in the world would you use a specific set JUST to not let Deoxys-D set a single layer of hazards ?
    "Oh god, he got SR now, autolose gg, I need to get a full counter for every SR setter".
    Is your team made of Charizard/Yanmega/Volcarona/ButterFree and Delibird to justify to be so badly afraid of SR ?
    This would explain those 50 posts over 18 pages.

    There are few ways to prevent a Sturdy Pokemon with White Herb to set SR on the first turn, I don't think they all need to be banned from OU.
    And now you'll jump to another argument like "Yes but Deoxys-D can damages spinners with random gem boosted move".

    I'm not even against the ban, but I find the logic summoned by some Deoxys-D haters really questionnable.
  23. Kawaii Kyouko

    Kawaii Kyouko

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    Alright, I read up to page 11, so I'm not sure what people have said after that. But up till' then, most comments I've seen about Deo-d is "It can check counters, it is unpredictable, it limits teambuilding, it is excellent at doing it's job, nothing but gimmicks can OHKO it".

    Now, I'm not gonna go into the two first parts, because they are all about people running custom sets to counter a pokemon that otherwise would check itself. Much like how I use a Work Up Leafeon in sun with HP Fire to deal with Ferro/Forre in a team. It's a gimmick, and there is obviously no need to bring it up in a discussion about the brokeness of a Poke.

    Now for the latter parts, however, in how "teambuild-limiting" it is and how good it is at doing it's job... Alright, I admit, that thing is seriously good at annoying us all with hazards. What about it? Amoonguss is terribly annoying with it's Regenerator+Dual-Spore shenanigans, it's still possible to handle it. Although something is terrifyingly good at doing a job, doesn't mean it's broken. Me, for once, have never ever made a team with a way to stop Deo-d, simply because... I don't consider it a big problem. I have a tendency to carry a CB Weavile to revenge-kill dragons and Chlorophyll users, so that may be a reason that I don't bother it, and sure... Deo-d may run a Superpower set... and there it's already weakened it's own defensive prowess, allowing any physical attacker faster to nail down the last HP he has (After taking a CB Night Slash). Hell, anything faster. And, alright, I lost my Weavile... He stopped Deo-d from setting up any layers, because the Deo-d considered Weavile the priority. If he, however, is the standard set which he should run, then I've limited him to SR. Cool. All I need is to either finish him off or get off my own rocks and that's a deal done.

    As such, I've got him covered without really having dedicated myself to do so. And this seems to be a running fad (for me), me having a check to Deo-d without even thinking about him. Annoying foe, yes, but never been a win-condition in any of my matches. In fact, most of my matches I win when I face a Deo-d.


    To the last point about "nothing can OHKO Deo-d"... well, not many things can OHKO Shuckle. And these conditions for an OHKO usually either need rain or hazards as a factor. Honestly, facing a Toxic Stall Shuckle is way more frustrating to me than facing a Deo-D. And oh God, toxic stall Gliscor.... Fuck that thing.


    Anyways, the point is, from my personal experience (I emphasis on this), I see absolutely no reason for a ban of the bulky alien. No reason. None. Nada. Njet. Ie.


    EDIT: I honestly don't care whether it is banned or not, so I'll just add in that, as a huge fan of Weatherless teams, I have only a few times used Deo-d without much success. It's not the face of weatherless, nor is it the face of HO, stop acting like it is. It's a defensive motherfucker with brilliant defenses and the capabilities of setting up hazards efficiently. Deo-d just happens to be included in a lot of these team structures.

    That was to those Anti-Ban people stating that they don't want to remove Deo-d for the purpose of killing weatherless teams.
  24. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    a.) I was just running a smash pass team and I found it to be effective so I thought I'd share it. I'm not Ban mongering here. I just thought people might be interested in finding innovative ways to counter it. I'm not claiming it to be a holy grail.

    b.) you are indulging in ad hominem here.

    c.) feel free to enumerate all the (2) viable pokemon who can use magic coat+ effectively shut deo-D down with a status + set up on it, with a single moveset, while not being affected by ANY of his anti counter moves (the only other pokemon who can maybe do so is Porygon-Z) Then you can to slander my post.

    Haha. No. Bad analogy. No one should take rocks for granted in the field. That's like saying dragonite will always use dragon dance. 'deal with it'. The fact that 9/10 times you cannot do anything to stop it, besides packing dedicated checks (even then getting to 1 layer), is a decisive advantage.
    Hell. I could pack a bulky Raikou and never be afraid of Tornadus-T again, doesn't make it any less broken.
  25. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    using Smeargle to counter DeoD is signs of overcentralization.

    I can see Lavos' point when he says that as a teambuilder, there technically isn't a surefire way to beat it. However, I feel DeoD in this situation is most comparable to Dragonite. There is no way in hell that anyone can prepare for all of its 8 sets, yet its completely managable. I know DeoD can set up hazards and that kind of support is great and all, but I feel that considering EVERY option like Thunder, etc. is kinda obnoxious. That would like trying to counter mixed Dnite, or the event someone uses Dragon Dance Latios. These options are viable, but usually not used in the metagame.

    Lavos, I can see your point, but I would not want to overexaggurate DeoD either. I relaly don't think DeoD needs to be banned; at least, not until rain and sun get suspected since they are way more of an issue and they are way more powerful than the suspect. As long as they are in OU I can't believe in its ban, but that's just me. When we ban Rain and Sun I'd be more than happy to ban DeoD js.
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