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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    No I'm not "indulging you ad hominem".

    And I'm not gonna bother nominate every single Magic Coat user. You want a good answer to Deoxys-D using Magic Coat that fit on many teams ?
    Quick example, use Jirachi. Usually in a SpD set you have a remaining slot, so go for Wish/BodySlam/IronHead/MagicCoat. It can even be useful to not let annoying staller like Ferrothorn put their hazards, or to not let Rotom-W burn your Achi.. something like that. Overall, it HAS surprise power and can be useful in almost any situation.

    I don't see why you want status and set-up.. to set-up on Deoxys-D? Once again, why in the world would you use a slot just for this specific situation. "Yes there is a Deoxys-D I can finally set-up !"
    There are many good pokemons that can set-up on Deoxys-D. For instance, I start Deoxys-D and there is a Terrakion against me.. I'll assume it's a Lead set and Magic Coat because I'm afraid of the taunt. He did substitute and he SD the next turn while I realise that I'll probably have to sac almost half my team.
  2. Magcargo

    Magcargo Behold my power
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    Came here to point something out.
    Deoxys-D isn't on the suspect because it sets up entry hazards, but because it can usually garantee at least a few hazards and beat most spinners with certain moves.
    I completely agree with the drizzle and drought ban.
  3. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    **indulging in
    and if you're not, then stop passing remarks about my xyz posts over xyz pages because that proves nothing besides the fact that I'm really involved with this discussion.

    Yes and Forgo a very essential coverage. Good luck reliably sweeping with only that with all the Earthquakes running around the tier.
    And no apart from these 3, the aren't any decent magic coat users in OU (Bar Alakazam; who is in no fit condition to abuse it)


    It has merit, agreed.

    So when do you set up? when that keldeo is throwing hydro pumps or when that Terrakion is spamming stone edges? Set Up opportunities are few and far in between and if you cannot set up on slower pokemon it's highly unlikely you'll get to set up at all against an HO team.

    OR he can just T-wave. You must realise it's also just as unpredictable. What you're describing here is akin to flipping a coin.
  4. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    You do realize that Substitute blocks Thunder Wave right...?

    On behalf of Remedy, I'll reword his sentence:

    Basically, its a 50/50 chance for both the Terrakion player and the DeoD player. If you taunt as he subs, you can abuse your Red Card to force it out. If you Thunder Wave as he subs, he can set up +2 and continue to rape your Mental Herb DeoD.

    Like I said I'm not going to really argue a side; only the facts. Fact is that Terrakion is a fantastic check as well as DeoD being able to play around it as well. 50/50. Don't overexaggurate DeoD's ability to beat Terrakion just as I am not exaggerating Terrakion's ability to beat DeoD. Its a coin toss, and Lavos + Co. are arguing that its the sheer unpredictability (in-between HP Fire / Thunder / Magic Coat / Skill Swap / Thunder Wave) that makes it broken.

    Like I said, I feel that is a bit obnoxious when there are many other Pokemon like Dragonite, Keldeo, and Terrakion that also have a lot of sets and can't all be countered. Furthermore, its because both Politoed and Ninetales are more "broken" than DeoD. I'm on and off about whether or not rain and sun are broken, but I feel that if Rain and Sun are still in the metagame that we have no right to ban DeoD either.

    EDIT:

    Also, when Remedy says "Why would you want to prepare for that specific scenario", I think he was trying to imply that DeoD is not that common on the ladder so why would you try to create that specific situation. Although I agree with you that setting up Set-Up opportunities are good since HO teams want to set up ASAP. I must say I think DeoD is rising in usage due to this suspect test, so if that is the case on Remedy's part, I will have to disagree.
  5. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Damn son, where'd ya find this?
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    @shurtugal while one people may have issues banning deoxys before weather, there are people who feel exactly the same way but reversed. The point is, you have to start somewhere if you want to take steps toward a desirable metagame. While deoxys being gone will certainly harm weatherless, or at least HO, this may only make rain and sun more apparently broken. I really don't like the idea of using something broken to check something else broken, although deoxys doesn't really check wether at all aside from buffing another playstyle.
  6. Shurtugal

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    My point is that I don't think DeoD is broken in a weather-infested Metagame. I'm not saying to use Sun or Rain to check DeoD; rather, that in a metagame where such teams are common DeoD can hardly be found broken.

    DeoD isn't going to harm weatherless, as there are plenty of other suicide leads for us to use. I'm not concerned about that whatsoever. DeoD can't even counter Rain or Sun (directly anyway) like you pointed out so I'm not saying to use these "broken" weathers to check "broken" DeoD. I just think if Sun and Rain are not found broken, than DeoD can not possibly be found broken either. Thus why I don't believe in this suspect test.

    The equivalent would be like suspecting Sand teams over Rain and Sun right now.
  7. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Damn son, where'd ya find this?
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    I also disagree with the placement of the test, but things can always be brought down later, as no weather would change a lot of former ubers. I think deoxys is broken even if some ubers were in ou
  8. ZandgaiaX

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    That's indeed an idiotic thing to say, same thing goes for amoonguss: it counters Keldeo right?! Totally means Keldeo isn't broken!

    Alas if Deoxys-D is up for a suspect test under the support-clause, then so should Drizzle (and Drought I guess). A suspect for a pokémon that can support easily without any form of effort and without any turn loss? That's Drizzle and Drought lads, all they need is to switch in. Deoxys-D needs Actual turns to set up those hazards, all of which may or may not be for naught with a rapid spinner.

    Also, as noted: Terrakion can 'somewhat' beat it, but pretty much anything with a set-up move that boosts stats can easily use Deoxys-D as set-up bait, and then what? As if Deoxys-D is going to taunt a Scizor, and if they stay in on a Scizor then they are idiots.

    One more thing about the Drizzle and Drought suspect thing: if people are afraid a whole bunch of pokémon are going to be banned because Drizzle was the only thing stopping them. Then they were broken all-along, and as far as I know we are meant to strive for a healthy metagame.
  9. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    Yeah, set up sweepers in general. See DubDance ThundyT
  10. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Have you people considered running two rapid spinners in the same team?
    It's not like they're useless if they're not using RS and at worst you give up a moveslot. Does that count as "overcentralization" too? Because that word is slapped on everything these days.
  11. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

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    Can we not say X isn't broken because drizzle is more broken. I am on the borderline about Deo-D. But drizzle really is a sperate issue. Also the two can be combined on one team.
  12. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Just want to point out that Deo-S was banned for its ability to set up SR + Spikes early game as well. This was also around the time when Rain and Sun was actually voted on so I wouldn't let the arguable brokenness of weather prevent you from banning something that has already had a precedent.

    On the subject of DoubleDance Thundy and SubSalac Terrakion here are some noteworthy calcs.

    Show Hide
    +2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 216-255 (71.05 - 83.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-D: 289-341 (95.06 - 112.17%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

    +2 252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-D: 222-262 (73.02 - 86.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    So Red Card Deo-D doesn't have such a bad matchup against these guys. You can setup SR turn one as they Sub/Dance the first turn and then taunt as they SD/2nd Dance the second turn (cause the whole point behind the sets is to get double +2 or a Sub and +2) forcing them to attack the following as you set up Spikes and phaze them out with Red Card. (and maybe get a second layer of Spikes cause their Rotom was dragged out) Sure they can go for a second Nasty Plot/Swords Dance to score the OHKO and limit you to SR but then they are open to revenge killing and that defeats the purpose of the set. (at least Double Dance Thundy) You can also Taunt them right off the bat and get similar results. SubTerrak is probably the most annoying to face just because it could be packing Rock Gem over Salac Berry or Taunt over Substitute. It's not a completely one sided matchup for either mon but I think it leans in Deo-D's favor.
  13. Vemane

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    That's not overcentrilization (it's not like they are specifically for deo-d anyways), that's just paranoia. The reason that it is somewhat difficult to fit a rapid spinner on a team is that your good options are forry, starmie, and tenta pretty much, and it often comes down to /sacrificing/ a spot for spin support. Adding yet ANOTHER arguably mediocre mon to spin is not only sacrificing 2 spots, but it will nearly 100% of the time be unnecesary, especially when facing ho when there isn't time to spin anyway.

    Actually, deo-s was banned for its ability to, truly, be unpredictable with three (lo, hazard, screen) incredibly strong sets. It could set up screens pretty much 100% of the time, set up rocks+spikes far more consistantly than deo-d, and then when attmepting to prepare, you are risking being smacked by a 95 base spatt (think starmie) life orb boosted move that is ridiculously hard to outspeed.

    Not to mention that its speed made it virtually impossible to attempt to 1st turn taunt





    There is a huge differnece
  14. youngjake93

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    LOL, Scizor vs Deo-D, better taunt in case it is SD, hahaha.

    Then again, that is just the sort of shenanigans backing the ban Deo-D argument.
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    Pointing out you can get +4 with NP on Thundy....
  16. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

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    Sub/SD terrakion vs Deo-D is actually less good then I expected. Sd SE does not OTK without LO. Between pressure, SE misses and gengar you can actually run out of SE. Which is a really terrible situation.

    Jolly Sub/SD Lando-t works better imo. Especially since it cannot be affected by t-wave if you mispredict.

    (sub/Sd Lando-t seems good right now in general. Can do alot of dmg to balanced/stall rain team.)
  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Yep, I mentioned that in my post. The problem is that it kinda defeats the purpose of using DoubleDance Thundy as you are using an arguably inferior set (didn't make it on the analysis) to set up on a specific threat and you can't even pull that off thanks to Red Card.

    Yee made an excellent post concerning the Deo-S ban.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4569422&postcount=143
  18. Vemane

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    Some highlights:

    "C) No rocks for Volcarona. NO ROCKS FOR VOLCARONA

    D) No rocks for Dragonite.
    I mean, what can you do? He can threaten everything in the game or otherwise, stop it from setting up while he does so."

    Unlike deo-s, deo-d CAN'T outspeed and taunt everything in sight

    "it also kills all the common Rapid Spinners with HP Fire / Thunder.

    and screens "

    Deo-d can do this to an extent, but the difference is that Deo-S can OUTSPEED them all so it isn't a matter of "hitting (maybe) starmie on the switch with electric gem thunder" plus you don't have to use electric shit gem...

    "Dual Screens Deoxys-S makes setup sweepers extremely difficult to handle. BW introduced a gigantic power creep to the game with sweepers like Volcarona, Haxorus and Shell Smash users. Covering these threats individually is possible, but doing so when they are placed on the same team with screen support is unreasonable. "

    Screening Deo-D isn't a thing

    "no, its the entry hazard set (and particularly dual screen) that makes me shit my pants when i see a deoxys-s in team preview

    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    - Stealth Rock / Spikes / Taunt
    - Stealth Rock / Spikes / Taunt"

    Note the screens as staples, and the hazards as interchangable

    Each of those posts claimed deoxys was made broken by something that deo-d CAN'T DO.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here's a replay of a battle I just had... take it as you will:

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9781872

    Commentary:

  19. Shurtugal

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    Just wanted to say: doesn't tbolt 2hko? Just tbolt as it SR's and you can set up on the switch. Not to mention every other Deo set from offensive to mental herb falls to DD ThubdyT. Solid check imo
  20. Melee Mewtwo

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    252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-D: 144-172 (47.36 - 56.57%) -- 82.81% chance to 2HKO

    Yeah, you have a shot to 2HKO but like I mentioned in my earlier post even checks are shaky as Red Card can easily force out one of the 30/53 OU Pokemon that Deo-D can set up a layer of Spikes on. You already don't have the sure fire chance to 2HKO with LO and then you run the risk of Red Card foiling your check attempts, anyways. It's a check but it isn't really stopping Deo-D from consistently setting up SR + Spikes. Besides, you don't need Double Dance to do this so I would prefer just using standard NP or Agility.


    As far as Deo-S is concerned, I only brought him up to show that we already had a precedent of banning a Pokemon who could consistently set up SR + Spikes in the first few turns regardless of the public animosity towards Sun and Rain. I'm not really qualified to talk about how he compares to Deo-D and nitpick the exact reasons for which he was banned as I didn't participate in that suspect test. (which was why I referenced Lee who had)



    Edit: I have absolutely no clue as, like I said, there isn't a Double Dance set on the Thundy analysis. (it just gets AC mention on both NP and Agility) Besides, Modest Thundy is outsped by Deo so he now has no problems getting SR + Spikes up.


    Edit 2: Yeah, I just said SR first as it'll let you Spikes as they are forced out if the opponent doesn't think to double up on Nasty Plot. You can obviously Taunt first and go for the Spikes on the probable chance that the forced in Mon can't finish off the job. (especially since Thundy-T hits so little that you can go ahead and include the Choice Scarfer with those 3ish Spikes fodder mons on the rest of the team) My goal was to disprove the idea that DoubleDance Thundy and SubTerrak can setup a sweep on Deo-D since they can't go for the speed boost/buffer and the (Sp)Atk. Boost without being forced out and SR + Spikes being set up. All they can do is try like everybody else to muscle past Deoxys and hope Red Card doesn't screw everything up.
  21. Vemane

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    Detailed Result:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Deoxys-D: 52.63% - 62.17%
    2 hits to KO

    If I'm not mistaken, it is generally standard that dd thundy uses modest

    252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Deoxys-D: 104.93% - 123.36%
    Guaranteed OHKO

    But if he is setting up hazards rather than taunting (which is likely), then it doesn't exactly work well for the deo-d user to have a +2 +2 thundurus up against their frail ho team, no matter if they have 4 layers of hazards or none.
  22. GatoDelFuego

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    Doesn't red card + taunt beat DD thundurus? Taunt first turn, they set up whatever they want, SR next turn while they attack and they are switched out. +2 Tbolt doesn't OHKO, mewtwo was right, he just had the wrong moves selected.
  23. Kawaii Kyouko

    Kawaii Kyouko

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    No, a +2 LO Tbolt from Modest Thundurus is a 100% OHKO
  24. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Standard Deo-D outspeeds Modest Thundurus-T, so you can't get +2 against it, you'll be taunted. Timid fails to OHKO 100% of the time.
  25. Kawaii Kyouko

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    It's a coin flip, that one. If the Deo-D goes for Taunt, 2HKO Tbolt. Only Rocks will be up.
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