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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    actually, here's the real 1337 stats from january (post 92), which are a far better indication of the metagame than base level ou showdown stats. anyways, these stats clearly indicate mental herb was used 13.862% of the time and magic coat was used 27.578% of the time, adding up to about 41% of deoxys-d that now use your sableye as setup fodder for their hazards (and i'd be willing to bet that tournament usage of magic coat and mental herb is even higher than the 1337 stats show). not exactly a solid check. that's like saying bandtar is a solid check for gengar as long as it doesn't get hit by the focus blast first.

    thunderbolt is actually a thing, with an electric gem it's a straight ohko on most builds of starmie, and while not exactly common, the point remains that deo-d can run basically whatever it wants to counter specific stuff. also, deo-d is extremely commonly seen paired with bandtar, so the standard sequence is: deo-d set up sr as starmie comes in, deo-d switch to bandtar on the spin, bandtar uses pursuit and kills starmie regardless of what it does. again, not exactly a fantastic counter.

    those are two really silly examples for such a serious issue. first, terrakion can barely even hurt golurk with earthquake, and golurk's not a metagame threat so ignore that...second, just because latios with eq is getting a set doesn't by any means translate to it being viable or good. i'm in ou c&c and i know for a fact we let some pretty awful stuff slide at times. also, you're making a fallacious argument here: just because terrakion and latios can run diverse movesets doesn't mean deo-d is any less broken because of it. anyways, this is simply dodging around the main point that deo-d can run specific moves to completely shut down pokemon that would otherwise wall it, and since you can't see deo-d's moveset in team preview, it's essentially a guessing game as to what it's running. ready to switch your forretress into deo-d, but afraid of hp fire? oh well, only one way to find out! long story short, deo-d's attributes of high base stats, an incredible movepool, and unrivaled versatility as a hazard setter combine to create a pokemon so definitively broken that i'm surprised it just now is getting suspected. thank you for your time, readers.
  2. BettaOffDead

    BettaOffDead

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    WTF

    Deoxys-D is good but not even close to being ban worthy. We have too many spinners and magic bounce users to handle Deo-D teams. Liek someone already said weatherless does not need another fucking nerf. With Deo-D gone the metagame will go to hell
  3. /B/utterfree

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    Are you even reading Lavos Spawn's arguments? Pretty sure he took the words right out of my own mouth, but Deo-D is a broken 'mon in a tier in desperate need of balance.

    Deo-D is the mascot of hyper offense, and its injustice is setting up hazards and then having moves which counter spinners easily, or otherwise partnering pretty well with Pokes who can take care of Zoroark, Tyranitar, or Sableye. I don't think banning Deo-D is going to be enough for hyper offense to cease, but it certainly would help make OU more balanced.

    Magic Coat is a thing, which means statusing it with Will-o-Wisp or Taunt can easily backfire. Then there's Electric Gem Thunderbolt laughing at Starmie and Tentacruel, or the equivalent for Donphan and/or Forretress coveragewise. It can handle spinners on its own or wear them down itself and resume its hazards operations.
  4. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    This test was inevitable simply because there are people torn on the subject, but in the end the chances of Deo-D being Ubers worthy are essentially none to none.

    It can successfully get Screens or Hazards up without dying, that's its sole goal and it does it extremely effectively. Just throwing up SR and 1 layer of Spikes before dying really isn't all that scary, especially if your team has a spinner. Even then, many teams have a number of SR resistant and spikes-immune mons, using a whole mon just for that makes the damage add up but it's not a huge detriment.

    It getting up Screens, or even worse, Screens AND SR before dying, however, is IMO the actual threat of Deo-D. They can sac it, carry 2 set-up sweepers that complement eachother, send one in, rip holes in the opposing team behind screens, and then that dies. That can't be stopped by the simple use of Rapid spin. I don't understand ANYONE that even implies SR/Spikes/2Counter move Deo-D is anywhere close to broken, because it provides nothing of value over a number of other mons in the metagame that can do something similar. Hazard + Dual Screens + filler Deo-D is what should be focused on in this suspect test because it's the only set that has a bigger than 0% chance of actually making Deo-D Ubers worthy. If that's not broken, nothing about Deo-D is.
  5. Cherub Agent

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    I was initially a little disappointed and annoyed that this suspect test didn't adress the drizzle issue, instead of deoxys-d, a pokemon that i have never really considered broken. But i must say, yee's post convinced me otherwisr. I'd never really thought about how deoxys-d can run two different moves to take out two different counters... and as said, in this meta if you start out with one pokemon down that had a high utility role (weather starter for ttar, spinner for tenta and starmie, multitool for scizor) in addition to two layers of hazards, the game may as well be over. This sheer reliability of deoxys and the guessing game that the opponent is forced to play and likely to lose now makes deoxys-d broken in my opinion.
  6. Sacaen

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    The point of Deo-D hyper offense is that it is actually quite difficult to spin against it. Also sure, Xatu can hard counter Deo-D and Espeon/Sableye can hard counter most Deo-D, that doesn't automatically mean it shouldn't be put up for suspect. There are Ubers with hard counters, that doesn't make them any less uber.

    Weatherless already has alot of viable options. It's not a "nerf" to weatherless if Deo-D were to be banned, it just means that there would be 1 less team archetype. <--- this is also the reason why I am against the banning of Deo-D, as it creates a more diverse metagame.

    Whether Deo-D is banned or not banned, I vehemently disagree with you that the metagame would "go to hell" without it. Deo-D is present in approxamately 1 in 15 battles per January's usage stats. That's not such a driving force of the metagame that everything is revolving around it (like it is for things like Politoed)
  7. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    What no Custap berry? Skarmory, Forretress and Crustle can easily replace Deo-D in making two layers normal battle conditions. They each have some cool perks as well; Whirlwind and Taunt/Rapid Spin, Gyro Ball and Explosion/Stone Edge and X-Scissor (anti Magic Bounce) respectively. It's extra easy since now they don't have to counter lead the DNA mon (cause nobody else thinks Custap leads are cool)
  8. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx

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    Really its a matter of excelling at something above everyone else, which make its broken imo. It is toxic for the metagame, much like Chansey in UU.
  9. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    Not wanting to argue since we both have our opinions and it's pointless to do so; I'm just wanting to clarify what I meant here. I meant that a Terrakion user can chose their set and 4th coverage move to eliminate a counter. It can to EQ to stop Toxicroak and Nidoqueen, it can run X-Scissor to stop Claydol in its tracks, and it can equip a Rock Gem to kill Gliscor. The only exception to that example - which is where I was unclear - is Golurk, who doesn't take squat from its STAB or coverage (but is easily worn down). You can't see Terrakion's, Latios', or any other example under the sun's moves in team preview either, and its list of counters change because of that, just like Deoxys-D. I'm not saying one justifies the other. I'm saying that the argument of "[X] can change its counter list with its moveset and should be banned" is a weak one to begin with. Don't make Deoxys-D conveniently have 7 moves and hold 3 items at once please. Everything has its counter.
  10. Soul Fly

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    Just my 2 cents on this discussion.

    I don't usually post in smogon, even though I have an account. But then I realized. Why not? If I can influence the discussion in any small manner why not take a stab at it?



    So on with the view...

    Though this may not come out right. but Deoxys-D has no 'true' counter.


    Let's see what counter means:
    "A counter is a Pokemon which can reliably stop the opposing Pokemon from doing it's job."

    What is Deoxy-D's job: Hazard Setting.
    Can anyone stop it at that?: Not really.




    It can almost ALWAYS reliably get hazards out. Multiple Layers at it. It was kinda nerfed in the Gene era, as lead genes could reliably KO it with a download boost, depending on their Set, or at best set it up for a 2HKO by U-turning in a appropriate Scarfer/Bander limiting it to one layer Now with him gone, this thing just runs rampant.

    Lets Consider this. The two of the Strongest Bugs in OU: Scizor and Volcarona both fail to OHKO it reliably, so even if you lead with then it will almost always get rocks out.
    The Specially Defensive Variety even survives Specs/Quiver Dance Volcarona at +1 (can't boost any more thanks to taunt). Bug Buzz will do a MAX 99% considering all favorable conditions which is damn impressive, considering it has a monster 400+ SpAtk Stat to begin with.

    Bulkarona which is more common in OU and depends almost exclusively on Quiver Dance and Fiery Dance to get it's Stats up don't do much.
    I believe many people have already done the Scizor calcs.



    What's worse? Red Card. Which can Effectively ruin your game and let it set up MORE layers as you're helplessly switched out to a pokemon you don't control and you essentially give it 2 free turns 9/10 times.



    Specs/LO Hydreigon is technically the only thing which can OHKO it in OU, without letting it set hazards, (and even LO cannot if it's the Purely Specially Defensive set) and we all know what kind of usage it is getting (around 5% as of the latest stats and around half of them using LO and are Mixed).

    Band t-tar is slower so it will always get rocks up at the very least, but Maximum T-Tars in OU are the Bulky Weather Warriors with a mixed set, which again is incapable of OHKOing Deo-D.



    Let us consider the other Options? Taunt it? Nope.
    For a Defensive behemoth it has a very broken Spe stat of 90. Couple that with it's own taunt and Magic coat (and the somewhat uncommon Mental Herb) means that your chances of Success with that strategy is very slim.

    Magic Bouncers?
    Again. It also has the very Fearful skill swap which will make it more dangerous than it already is if you somehow end up gifting it a permanent magic coat.

    Set Up on it's face?
    Nah. Taunt obviously stops you from reaching more than +1. That and you need an insanely strong SE+STAB attack in the first place to kill it. Not to mention you have to chance of being switched out thanks to red Card leaving you with no boosts and Deo-D's team with all the hazards.






    To summarize (tl;dr version)
    Deoxys-D has no true counters. But all it's Sets have certain checks. But even having said that it doesn't have any true 'universal check'. It can throw hazards at you face without any drawbacks for it will not be taunted and will certainly not be treated as set up bait. It's the defensive counterpart of Gene. All the sets are counterable but you never know what it is carrying. If Genesect was found Uber for that Reason alone, Deo-D certainly deserves a very thorough suspect test.
  11. Volty

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    The best partner for Deo-D is gengar with destiny bond. Basicly you get rid of the spinner early game you are guarenteed a full house of hazards. Now hazards annoy me alot so i guess im in favor of this lol. Still, this will be interesting.
  12. gengarsnemisis

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    Lol deoxys-d suspect test. You guys are so ban-happy its a wonder many players are ditching showdown and going to PO -.-. Seriously though, if you let deo-d get anything more than sr set-up, you probably suck. Its extremely easy to limit deo-d to only sr, example scenario lead with scizor (most used pokemon mind you) u-turn, switch in faster threat than deo-d, swiftly killl, only rocks are set up. So yeah he can set up stealth rocks really good, totally ban worthy.....
  13. RabidChipmunk

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    Fire Gem Deoxys says "Hello," and "Fuck you."

    That's what makes Deoxys so (potentially) ban worthy -- there is no one answer. Yes, obviously Deoxys can't handle everything that tries to stop it's hazard setting ways, but there's nothing that can stop him every time, either. There's a Deoxys set for everything.
  14. Woodchuck

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    I understand that Deoxys-D is definitely a great Pokemon, but some of these arguments are ridiculous. Deoxys-D can't run Taunt / Spikes / Stealth Rock / Magic Coat / Thunderbolt / HP Fire / Psychoboost. There ARE Pokemon that set up on and make life hell for Deoxys-D teams (Double Dance Thundurus-T, anyone?) and it's still possible to spin against these teams. Oh wait, Deoxys-D might have a coverage move that can KO your spinner? Maybe you could switch it out to scout for it. Deoxys-D, once again, cannot have all of those moves at the same time. Is the aggregate of its sets broken, or is Deoxys-D broken in individual cases in games?

    You can run gimmick sets to beat any set of counters for most Pokemon. This is not unique to Deoxys-D. Any Fire Gem Deoxys-D is now setup fodder for Double Dance Thundurus-T / SubSD Garchomp / any other random sweeper with decent bulk unless you do something retarded like Ice Beam / HP Fire Deoxys-D, and then you have no Taunt / Magic Coat. If Deoxys-D makes use of its "amazing versatility" then it leaves itself open to something else. Oh what, it's not fair because you "can't know" its moveset? There are plenty of other Pokemon whose moveset you "can't know", and that doesn't make them broken.

    So far, what I've seen from the pro-ban arguments is that Deoxys-D lays hazards exceptionally well.
    Yes. It does.
    What I'm NOT seeing is how one makes the logical leap from "Deoxys-D is a good hazard layer" to "Deoxys-D breaks the metagame". Yes, entry hazards are excellent and give the Deoxys-D team an advantage, but the tradeoff is they risk losing to Timid Volcarona / Double Dance Thundurus-T / Terrakion being played competently. Deoxys-D is not Deoxys-S. It cannot Taunt everything, no questions asked, and yet it isn't bulky enough to avoid being 2HKOed by strong attackers. What about Deoxys-D and its ability to set up hazards makes this worth it, or even broken? Why are hazards such an insurmountable advantage? At what point does "early game advantage" become enough to ban a Pokemon that is almost never an offensive threat in a match?
  15. oSeasons

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    U-turn from scizor followed up with another attacking move from a pokemon faster than deoxys-d easily stops deoxys from setting up more than 1 layer of hazards.
  16. Kidogo

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    I for one agree with lavos in thinking that this is by far the most reasonable suspect test we have done. Deo-D is already almost certainly broken in my mind, I won't go over the reasons again (for doubters, please read yee's and lavos's posts for a start).

    Looking forward to this suspect test, hopefully we can get rid of a totally unbalanced mon and improve the meta.

    EDIT: ninja'd, just have to reply. Yes it's true that deo cannot run everything on one set, but the point is that there is literally nothing in OU other than starmie and occa scizor I guess that is guaranteed to stop deoxys from getting up at least 2 layers of hazards. And while, yes, we can all run starmie, occa scizor, or chopletar, that is certainly overcentralization. Meanwhile, for the OU teams that don't employ ttar or scizor (read: the vast majority), deo-d is essentially guaranteed those hazards. And every spinner in the tier is easily stopped by gengar, deo-d's best friend, with the sole exception of starmie--who is of course massive pursuit bait. So take a core of deo-d + gengar + weavile, for instance. There is literally nothing in OU that can stop you from setting up several layers of hazards.

    As far as I'm concerned, setting up hazards this reliably is an incredible boon. Because the metagame is so offensively inclined, there are already a propensity of offensive threats that are just barely checkable. Add in guaranteed hazards, and that literally shrinks to nothing in many cases (going to try to stop an SD terrakion with your hippowdon while losing 25% of your health on the switchin? Be my guest). This is why deo-d's prowess as a hazard-setter leads to brokenness imo.
  17. gengarsnemisis

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    @RabidChipmunk Has anyone here honeslty faced a fire gem deoxys...? Anyway thats beside the point, the point is hes pretty damn easy to 2hk0 and only allowing rocks to set up.

    I'd also like to point out that without gengar, deo-d is utterly useless, and you know, gengar is such an amazing spin blocker an all.......

    And guys...Deo-d cant run pycho-boost, thunderbolt, hp-fire, taunt, spikes, stealth rock, reflect, light screen, skill swap, while holding red card, mental herb, rocky helmet etc etc, so please stop acting like it can (if it could than, yes, it would be bannable.)
  18. Sacaen

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    Unless it is redcarded and it switches you to something that can't do jack to it.

    edit: or as Gengarsnemisis above me said, Firegem Deo-D will outspeed and KO scizor.
  19. yee

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    @ Woodchuck

    Let me clear it up- yes it can't run all of those moves, BUT there is no way most of the time to even have a good guess at which 2 it selected. The win or the loss usually comes down to whether or not 1 or 2 of the moves was the right one which is a pretty dumb game.
  20. Soul Fly

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    Relevant Parts bolded


    Well Last Time I checked Genesect was Banned for the Very same reason. No it couldn't have had all] it's superb coverage moves in one set. but The unpredictability factor was enough to push it to Ubers. Going by precedent we shouldn't making that allowance for Deo-D..

    Laying up Hazards, you must realize is a very deft advantage. Getting rocks up without fail will almost always give you a decisive advantage. If you can ensure that no matter what Sash will always be broken, Volcarona will be made useless, DNite will lose it's multiscale with 100% guarantee and tons of other stuff like Reveral sets etc become non-issues it suddenly gives you an enormous advantage with little or no risk. Plus Volt-Turn cores are severely limited with Hazards up. This makes the Already very Popular Hyper Offense more OP.

    I find it funny how people gather with pitchforks to ban offensive mons but when it comes to making certain playstyles completely redundant you have arguments like this.
  21. gengarsnemisis

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    @yee running wacky sets like you've pointed out is going to leave your deo-d sub-optimal, its like the argument genesect could run hp ground to get past its counters, to bad that leaves him sub-optimal.
  22. Zentrius

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    Deoxys-D IMO isn't as broke as some mons in the current metagame, it isn't the most versatile pokemon in the metagame but it is the best pokemon to put the hazards up in the game. However, Deoxys-D suffers from a severe case of 4MSS. You don't carry Skill Swap? Espeon/Xatu. You don't neither have Mental Herb/Magic Coat? Walled by Sableye. You're not runint Rocky Helmet? Spinned away by Forretress.

    I completely, 100% agree with Woodchuck. Deoxys-D is an amazing hazard layer, but you are paying a risk to either get swept by common threats such as Timid Volcarona, Double Dance Thundurus-T, Swords Dance Weavile, and some other things. If you lead with Deoxys-D and your oponent is smart and goes right away into Volcarona then you are getting swept, unless you get lucky with the speed tie and Revenge Kill it with Salamence, since that's the most common Scarfer Hyper Offense runs.

    Also, Sand is pretty common and 90% of Deoxys' sets don't run leftovers so it gets worn down pretty quicly as ironic as it sound. Overall, Deoxys-D is an amazing hazard layer, but it's a 50/50 deal; you get your hazards, or you just serve as set-up bait.
  23. Kidogo

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    @gengarsnemesis
    But deo-d really has two free moveslots--3 even if you fit a SRer on the team. Gene was trying to sweep the whole metagame, while deo can basically spam spikes by virtue of its defenses and speed, using whatever moves it needs to to beat its supposed "counters". Also, you dont even need to hit other spinners when you can just pack a ghost like gengar, which beats all relevant spinners except for starmie, which, as I explained above, is massive pursuit bait.

    EDIT: ninja'd again
    One of the other viable moves deo can run is twave--if you SR as they go to volc, you twave it as it QDs. Then set up two more layers of spikes while it 2HKOs you, and send in you subSD terrakion to fish for a paralyze and then sweep. Just an example, but deo's ridiculously huge movepool means even stuff like volc can't set up on it safely.
  24. Soul Fly

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    Let me assure you. Fire Gem Deo-D is a thing. I've faced many of them in Standard OU. Because the only item Deo-D ever makes use of is Red Card. So why not just fit in fire gem to Surprise KO that Scizor and Proceed to lay up hazards like nothing ever happened? Teams hardly have more than one Bug Type STAB (and as I've pointed out earlier it hard to KO it even with that) so you're more ready than ever to just do full +3 spikes and rocks.
  25. Andeby

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    But then Deoxys-D goes for Hidden Power Fire and... Oops?

    It`s in many ways the playstyle Deoxys-D rather than the Pokemon we`re suspecting here (you can`t just throw him in any type of team, unlike Scizor). Most solid teams will take out Deoxys-D before he`s able to do much more than putting down SR and one layer of Spikes, if you`re not too unlucky when it comes to his two last moves, that is.

    The problem is that a well-built Deoxys-D team can and will create devestating results out of those close to guaranteed entry hazards that Deoxys-D lays. The fact that the viable counter-measures to his last two possible moves are so different, that you might as well just challenge your opponent to a game of rock-paper-scissors, will probably push this mutant over the edge.
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