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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    So since the topic of the day is "What can set up on Deo-D while he lays hazards?" I figured I'd point out some of the way Deo-D, or his teammates, can handle certain set-up sweepers (at least on my HO team, anyway).

    In all these scenarios, Deo-D's moveset is Thunderwave/Taunt/Stealth Rock/Spikes, and his item is Mental Herb (AKA the set I run, since this is based on my experience).

    Deo-D vs. Terrakion:
    I use T-wave. If he doesn't set up a substitute, he's crippled. If he does, oh well. I'll just keep setting up hazards while he gleefully sets up Swords Dances. He kills me with Stone Edge whenever's he's done setting up, I switch in Gengar, Disable his Stone Edge, and force him out while I get to set up a Substitute myself. Threat handled.

    Deo-D vs. Dragonite:
    I taunt first turn. If he's banded, I guess I end up getting walloped. If not, threat handled.

    Deo-D vs. Garchomp:
    Much the same thing as with Terrakion. I just keep setting up hazards while he keeps Swords Dancing, and then after he kills me, I send in my Choice Scarfer (in this case, Latios) and threaten him out. Threat handled.

    Deo-D vs. Thundurus-T:
    Taunt first turn. If he set up a Nasty Plot before I could Taunt him, I can easily revenge kill him. If he set up an Agility, then I'm in a bit of a pickle. Fortunately I have two priority users on my team, one of which is Weavile.
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs 0 HP/0 Def Thundurus-T: 72.24% - 85.28% (2 hits to KO)
    'Tis unfortunate, I'll have to send in Lucario on the next turn to E-Speed it. So Thundurus-T is a threat.

    Deo-D vs. Volcarona:
    I T-wave as he Quiver Dances. If he doesn't have Lum Berry, I'm sittin' pretty. If he does, I get 6-0'ed. So Volcarona is a huge threat that must be more carefully handled.

    Deo-D vs. Tyranitar
    I just set up hazards. Regardless of whether or not he's Banded or Scarfed, I'm limited to just one layer. Although if he's Scarfed, I can tank the first Crunch, set up my rocks, and then send in Lucario on the second for a free Justified boost. Yipee. I don't rightly care about Taunting Tyranitar since it's too risky and if he sets up rocks, oh well, my team can handle it.

    So in all my experiences with Deo-D, only Agility Thundurus-T, Lum Berry Volcarona and CB Tyranitar are consistent answers to it / threaten the rest of my team. Now, I probably missed something here so feel free to decry my analysis and call me a noob, but this is what I came up with.
  2. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are here
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    @Fujiki If deoxys goes for taunt, then Tbolt doesn't OHKO and red card can send you out, letting two hazards going up. It's a 50-50 for more than one layer to go up, SR is guaranteed.
  3. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    So what if SR is guaranteed? Spikes is now not guranteed and that's the entire issue in question lol. See Azelf for guaranteed rocks plz
  4. preserve

    preserve

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    This can easily be played around with. Eventually people will start catching on an not use stone edge but another move to kill deoxys-D making disable on gengar the next turn useless as it terrakion is free to use stone edge.
  5. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    SubDisable Gar

    Only like the most common set on a mon that pairs absolutely amazing with Deo-D.

    I'm not for Deo-D for Ubers BTW, but seriously get your facts straight lol.
  6. Arash

    Arash

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    guys,

    bug gem scolipede OHKOs deo-D 100% of the time with megahorn, and it's faster

    you're welcome
  7. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Yeah, Scolipede doesn't really have much of a niche outside of that and fast Spikes. Its weak, its frail, it has horrible type coverage.
    Also, Megahorn has only 85% accuracy, which can leave you in horrible, horrible positions (not like any competent player is going to leave Deo-D in on something that obvious).
  8. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
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    Scolipede does not in any way have horrible type coverage. Megahorn, EQ, and Rock Slide give it near perfect coverage in OU, and it can also use SD to back up its offenses. Not saying that it's any good, but it certainly does not have bad coverage.
  9. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    if your proposed solution of dealing with deoxys-d is bug gem scolipede, that just shows the extent to which deo-d forces opponents to either run odd stuff to bypass it that's relatively useless otherwise, or just lose to it outright and be forced to play around three or four layers of hazards all game. not saying scolipede is the only answer to deo-d, but honestly you'd be hard-pressed in this metagame to find more than a handful of pokemon/sets that can reliably deal with deo-d and aren't completely useless outside of that specific function. as i've explained many times over, there's a ton of stuff that can potentially handle deo-d, but almost nothing can handle every deo-d variant. i'll give the example of sableye, which generally dumps all over deo-d, but if it happens to have either taunt + mental herb or magic coat, suddenly it's fodder for deo-d's hazards. almost nothing is safe against this thing, and that's only one of many arguments for its ban.
  10. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
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    I don't find it surprising that there are few things that can set-up against a taunt user, all those scenarios show is that a properly supported (choice scarf users, trappers) Deoxys-D is hard to stop. Same thing can be said about volcarona, lucario, keldeo, and a slew of other pokemon that aren't even offensive. It's like saying dedicated baton pass teams should be banned. No. They commit a high fraction of team resources to a strategy, being able to build a good team with Deo-D does not show that it should be banned.

    The best arguments for the banning of Deo-D are the ones that distinguish it from other pokemon that fill the same role, and what these arguments come down to is that Deo-D can do it earlier in a match than any other. Is that enough reason to ban it? I would say no, but if that is someone else's reason for banning it I can accept the validity of their opinion. I just find most of the other arguments presented to be either ridiculous theorymon that doesn't correspond to the reality of the game, or else they don't show anything special about Deo-D as opposed to Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, etc.
  11. Arash

    Arash

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    again, the only way deo-d comes out on top vs bug gem scolipede is either focus sash (lol) or the bug-resist berry (rofl)

    some other things worth trying if deoxys pisses you off; max attack ttar with fling+iron ball, DD crawdaunt / scrafty, heracross, SD weavile / bisharp, escavalier (assuming no HP fire), CMgothitelle

    don't you dare tell me all of those pokes are otherwise useless either. sure, things like weavile can be forced out easily, but don't sit there and cry about deoxys with all of these pokes that are at least viable in OU

    EDIT: myzozoa, if deoxys-D could be trapped and killed by magnezone we wouldn't be having this discussion:)
    EDIT2: if you can predict that deo-D won't magic coat, use something with block / mean look and boost up to +6
  12. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    @Lavos
    Terrakion's hard counters like Nidoqueen and Golurk are in the lower tiers.

    Discussion was made about NP Thundurus-T and Volcarona giving Deo-D HO teams a rough time. Scolipede beating it AND being able to lay down the Spikes that are apparently making people think Deo-D is uber is just extra. It isn't the ONLY thing you can do, it is just one of the better options for that particular scenario, like Golurk against Terrakion.
  13. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Deoxys-D is one Pokemon, you can't compare it with freaking Baton Pass teams, which require every single member to set up for one Pokemon. I would argue that Deo-D HO is the exact opposite of Baton Pass, seeing as only one Pokemon helps the others while they set up for themselves and then just try to smash holes in things and take advantage of the hazards.

    Its huge bulk from both sides allows it to use a Mental Herb to totally disregard Taunters, it can run a variety of moves to completely ruin its checks, its rather fast, and you basically have to use insanely powerful super effective Choiced/Gemmed users in order to stop it from doing its job entirely. That's not enough for you?
    All three of the Pokemon you listed are slow (well, Skarmory has mediocre speed), they're all shut down by Taunt, and they can be 2HKOed by many, many things that can take advantage of holes in their defenses. But if we look at Deo-D, we notice that there really are no holes in its defenses, and the only way to reliable deal with it is to knock it down is with incredible amounts of brute force. Given the options, there is really no need to pick another 'mon to set up for HO, Deoxys-D is literally the best option, and if you try to go with another you're just gimping yourself.

    Fling TTar is a horrible gimmick (isn't Iron Ball a steel move? why wouldn't you just Crunch?). Bisharp doesn't outspeed, guaranteeing two layers minimum, not to mention it can't Sucker Punch until Deo-D is done setting up. Weavile is raped by basically every Scarfer and priority abuse in OU. Crawdaunt has horrible defenses and Speed, so its in the same boat as Weavile, with emphasis on the Scarfers.
    And yeah, Diatom, I missed Earthquake and Rock Slide, they have good coverage. I just don't see you doing anything with it afterwards, seeing as Scolipede is unboosted, has 90 base Attack, has to run Jolly nature to outspeed Lati@s and Musketeers, and has no item.
  14. cjrocker

    cjrocker

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    I can't speak for him but I'm pretty sure he was referring to RapidChipmunk's post, who basically for most of his given scenarios said 'oh I'll just switch to x teammate, problem solved.' The support for DeoD he was comparing to Baton Pass teams moreso than DeoD himself, I think. Make what you will of that.

    Just my two cents.
  15. Arash

    Arash

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    fling is a dark move, iron ball gives it 130 BP. also, the point isn't always to OHKO deoxys, but rather to set up yourself, take out 1-2 mons (hint: use substitute if you're afraid of scarf/priority) and then rapid spin later.

    even better, you can lead with espeon / xatu. deoxys is forced to switch, unless of course you propose that he has attacks on top of SR / spikes / magic coat / taunt?
  16. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
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    Each of the pokemon I listed is different than Deoxys-D in many ways, Skarm has phazing, Forry has rapid spin, Ferrothorn resists water (super important for HO teams against rain). Each of these pokemon can do things Deoxys-D can't, but I won't argue that Deoxys-D isn't the simplest of these for hyper offense to use.

    As for my comparison with baton pass, when I build HO teams with Deo-D I spend a ton of time considering how to support Deo-D so it isn't good 75% of the time and utter trash the other 25% of the time. To bring it to a tournament or play on the upper ladder you can't just slap it on and expect it to allow you to win 85-90% of the time that you need it to. This manifests in my team building as Deo-D+2 pokemon to allow it to function, then 3 pokemon that abuse the hazards. So now I've dedicated a not tiny portion of my team to making my strategy work, sure a baton pass team does more, but my analogy is meant to show that one does not merely slap Deo-D on a team and win.

    I keep coming back to Ferrothorn because I will most likely use it over Deo-D if Deo-D is banned. Ferrothorn with spikes and SR + Land-t requires only 1 pokemon and Ferrothorn to afford Ferrothorn maximum affectiveness at laying hazards, I'm not saying we should be banning Ferrothorn, but there are other combinations that produce the same affects as the routine Deo-D combinations.
  17. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Umm just wondering, what would happen if you used my Espeon from the Next Best Thing thread against Deo-D. It is a set that functions well in OU(that's the point of that thread) since some say Scolipede does not.

    Espeon @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
    Modest Nature
    - Grass Knot
    - Hidden Power Fire
    - Psychic
    - Shadow Ball

    It 2HKOs Deo-D, OHKOs Gengar, has a chance to OHKO weavile and LO/CB Pursuit doesn't OHKO if you don't predict Espeon staying in, free switch if you overpredict, and it will do over 65% to mostly anything on a HO team with Psychic.

    Would this not completely derail Deo-D HO?
  18. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    sure that set beats deo-d completely, it's also fairly useless in actual competitive play outside of fulfilling that specific purpose. specially defensive jirachi, for example, one of the most common pokemon in the ou tier to date, walls your proposed espeon set completely. any base speed 110 or above pokemon outspeeds it and can probably ohko it (latios does, gengar does, starmie does in rain, jolteon does with choice specs or life orb, aerodactyl does, etc.), and espeon overall is an extremely weak pokemon with a rather limited movepool, so a lot of stuff can switch in pretty safely. tyranitar's another big deal espy has to worry about, with ttar in play espy can't ever psychic or shadow ball or hp fire safely since if it does that as ttar switches in it's as good as dead. it has to predict the switch correctly, grass knot, and then pray ttar isn't scarf or specially defensive, otherwise espy's still dead. the fact that this espeon set is really bad against like half of the top 10 pokemon in the ou tier to date is an indication that, yet again, an erroneous and overwhelmingly useless set is being proposed to deal with the hazard monster and huge ou presence that is deoxys-d.
  19. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Espeon actually beats sDef Tyranitar by Grass Knotting on the switch-in for the 2hko(with 1 hazard on the field) and scarf can't KO with Pursuit.
    252+ SpA Life Orb Espeon Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 179-213 (44.3 - 52.72%) -- 85.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Espeon's job is to be in against hazard layers, status users and such so it doesn't have to worry about 1v1 matchups, only threatening what it comes in against and smashing stuff on the switch-in.
    On the switch-in, it OHKOs half of the fast threats you listed and does around 75% to the others(which turns into a OHKO with SR on Aero or SR+Spikes on Jolteon).

    So... it isn't useless and you obviously judged it too quickly.

    I actually made the set with Tyranitar and Scizor in mind, not Deo-D so it isn't exactly fine-tuned to only be good against Deo-D teams and nothing else. It functions well in OU. Heatran and sDef Jirachi(only sDef, no other sets) are the only top 10 Pokes that trouble it and the other 8 and a half get murdered by it. So you made a bad assessment Lavos.
  20. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are here
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    This really sums up how I feel about deoxys all the time. It constantly forces you to always make the right play every turn, because if you don't deoxys remains totally fine and puts continuous pressure every turn from the increased hazards.
  21. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Azelf has crappy defenses IMO. Any Banded Priority user plays havok with it. So a very poor guarantee. And Azelf is JUST one layer. It rarely survives more than 2 moves. Espeon completely manhandles it and forces it out with Shadow ball, and it is forced to use explosion for a kamikaze because it doesn't have a super solid utility like Skill swap.

    It's good. But Really has a lot more ways to be shut down than Deo-D does.
  22. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    A minor investiment in defenses will make it able to take any priority except for the rare and extremely predictable Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak. BIt also resists Mach Punch, the most common priority attack.

    The argument here is whether Azelf can guarantee SR on the field or not, so let's not change the subject.

    Just enough moves to use Taunta nd SR successfully.

    I'm sorry, what? Azelf outspeeds and 2HKOs with Shadow Ball before Espeon can do anything.
  23. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    The argument here is if Azelf outclasses Deo-D in Hazards laying. Deo-D is consistent in getting multiple layers up unless you lead with U-turn Scizor + a SE attack or something like Banded Tyranitar.

    It's plain out 2hkoed/OHKOed by any offensive mon who can land a neutral hit. You ARE getting one layer only, BAR horrible misplays.

    I'm sorry what? I thought we were talking about the lead hazards set here. you have only one moveslot for anti-countering and you want to fill it with Horrible Coverage like Shadow Ball? Pull up usage stats, that's like never used. And with good reason, having a horrible coverage like that shit. Terrakion, Mienshao, Gengar, Infernape, Scizor, All the Offensive Dragons etc etc are basically getting free switch ins. Good luck being checked by half of the metagame instead of just Espeon.
  24. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    No it wasn't.

    Gato had said it didn't matter if Deod was 2hkoed by Thundyt because it got rocks up. I simply said a lot if things gurantee rocks and mentioned Azelf. I did NOT say it outclassed Deod. Learn2Read
  25. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Oh oops. Sorry. I confused your comment along the lines of SmashBrosBrawl's argument about Azelf being better than Deo-D
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