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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    same story, at around 40+ games was with 3000+ glicko all this time with 230+ deviation. and I don't know if it's only me but the ladder is like...... empty. Hardly 4-5 people playing at a time (since I had a record no. of rematches). I could hardly manage at most like 7-8 games in an hour with that humongous waiting time.

    Even with that, half the matchups end up with my opponent quick-forfeiting to hit the reqs, which isn't helping my deviation at all.


    And yes, the first 10 matches are really important. I dunno why, but they seem to like set your glicko2 rating in stone. (I had to try with 3 alts before I got the ball rolling)


    This has kind of lost it's purpose, which is kind of disappointing since I was really looking forward to vote. And I don't really advocate the idea of gaming the ladder. Plus I have my grad exams coming up so I sadly couldn't continue grinding like this.

    I still don't regret all the wasted grind since I got to play some fantastic games, especially against yee's sand team (who was operating under the alt bwou, I believe) and got to refine many kinks in my HO team.

    I'll just need to hope that the other voters vote responsibly and I trust they will. Plus I have faith that the council will have a fair deliberation over the matter.
    I just hope that the issue is resolved before the next suspect test.
  2. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    I also trust the voters, and it is really sad to not have time to get the reqs.

    However,
    , this is really interesting, could you provide me with a screen, or just the name of your account. This case seems really incredible and I really want to see it by myself, and potentially, it could help everybody trying to improve the system =)
  3. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Whoops, my bad, dropped below 2750 after 25-30-ish games, I forgot to list it was just an unnatural peak. The deviation is actually what's really killing.

    Nothing extraordinary as far as W/L ratio is concerned. 65-70% win rate
  4. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Yeah, there is an annoying temporary setback when you are haxed against a lower rating player (although you could try to limit this somewhat by setting limits on who you battled) however with this glicko2 system there is a permanent setback caused by significant hax (how much depends on where you are at in your climb) that forces you to scrap the alt and start all over. There's also the fact that you must play high rating players early on if you are shooting for a strong peak because, otherwise, the low rating players will give you less points during the period that you can actually get them and then you have to struggle for +8s latter on. Basically, I don't like how the glicko2 values the first games more than the latter and would prefer an ELO sort of system. (although, with a better limit on how many/little points can be lost/gained from battles)
  5. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
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    The problem is that laddering is basically the best solution to the problem that we can get. No matter what rating system we use, the flaws will still remain inherit - we cannot make reqs too high because most people do not have the time to dick around, otherwise we will have to make the rounds last for too long which will make people complain. We can't drop the reqs because then how do we define who is a "qualified voter?" The other tiers only have a handful of voters due to the highly strict requriements (if they even allow public voting); should OU follow their example? Or is it still the better option to allow the masses to vote, with some effort requried?

    Honestly the entire system is a bloody crapshoot given how absolutely utterly random pokemon is, from the hax, to the players, to the meta-mechanics of "alts." As it stands it is entirely possible to continue to throw away "crap" alts until you make reqs, and is the very same reason the ladder is currently completely worthless - did you lose a few games early on? No big sweat, just keep restarting your attempted ladder climb until you hit the motherload!

    And don't even get me started on how much whining and drama there would be if we started to require paragraphs.

    imo no win situation here because people are looking at this all wrong. As it stands we should just take laddering and requirements for what they are - a show that a player is dedicated enough to burn the time to post a single line in a single forum about the fate of a single pokemon. We are fucking never going to get a perfect system which shows a player is 'good' or 'bad' - but we can get (and indeed already use) one that shows they give enough of a rattata's firm, purple buttocks about the metagame to put in the time required to vote, hopefully meaning they also did their homework beforehand.

    My 2pokedollars.
  6. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I would just make the the requirements like 2000 higher (regular ranking) or simply make it from 2000 to 2100 (the other thousand digit) and totally ignore the deviation. It's proven to be a pushover and force users to throw matches anyway. Why not make it that you need a requirement of battling at least 50+ (or even 60+) battles and maintain 2000 or higher ranking (in general)? It seems a bit more challenging and would help eliminate the voters by a lot imo. We could easily provide the two screenshots we already have to provide -- but if the W + L + T do not = 50+, then we don't count it. The deviation will be bound to be decent anyway if they can maintain whatever we decide to call req.

    I had to throw a few matches myself (though I'll admit to Meru I just plain lost against that sand stall: I underestimated Latias' bulk :o). Point is that something needs to be fixed. It was stupidly easy for me to get req., while (several good players) are struggling due to the variations / deviations / lack of players + draw button?
  7. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego This is what is technically known as a Firecat
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    @soul fly, remedy...you know you guys can send in special applications and will most likely be selected to vote with those stats?
  8. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    I believe Remedy already got his reqs, as for me my record isn't anything spectacular, the win rate was fairly ordinary, it was just that the matchmaking wait times + the bloated glicko was causing problems. It's not that big a deal, I'm sure you guys will vote according to what you think is best. I have full faith in you people. Plus I have exams so I will not be actively participating in the community for the next month or so.

    But I'm sure Lavos (having played 90+ games) and some of the people like him who have been laddering like supercrazy should definitely apply for it.

    EDIT:
    We must keep in mind that the Glicko Rating System was originally developed to rate games like chess, where Hax isn't a factor at all. While it is an excellent judge of skill, (seeing how on some levels Pokemon is like chess on crack, with a fair amount of luck involved) AFAIK it was simply not developed keeping in mind random occurrences which might supersede the skills of the said players.
    A small pool of candidates also seems to worsen the problem as there isn't enough comparison metrics to draw up and hence the estimation of 'deviation' doesn't narrow down.

    But I'll still admit it's better than ACRE and as for ELO... I don't know. As I have only seen ELO used for team games so far.
  9. Iconic

    Iconic
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  10. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    voted to ban deoxys-d for several reasons which i'll detail below:

    first, deo-d has the best overall defensive bulk of any hazard layer. this makes it much more difficult to take down than pokemon like forretress and ferrothorn, as well as more offensive rocks users such as terrakion and garchomp. the fact that even cb scizor's u-turn isn't a ohko makes me believe that the thing's just too bulky to stay ou.

    second, deo-d is way too versatile of a hazard setter to stay ou. when you look at other common hazard layers, for example, forretress or ferrothorn, these pokemon are essentially one-trick ponies, whereas deo-d can run basically any set to neutralize particular checks. forry and ferro aren't especially hard to predict, and neither is lead sr terrakion, all these pokemon basically run variations on the same set and they can't get past their reliable counters (i.e. taunt/sr/se/cc terrak isn't getting past tenta in rain). however, deo-d is uncounterable because nothing is safe from its versatility of moveset. forretress isn't safe because of hp fire. tentacruel falls to psycho boost. starmie loses to thunderbolt. faster taunt users can be neutralized by magic coat or taunt + mental herb. tyranitar can get donked by superpower. even xatu/espeon can have their ability used against them via skill swap. this makes deo-d completely unpredictable and extremely hard to play against until you know its set, there's no safe switch-in.

    finally, deo-d gets hazards up so easily that it makes ou battles mindless clicking of buttons. this decreases the competitive aspect of pokemon, which in my mind is what this game is all about. when you send out deo-d turn 1, 90% of the time you're just going to click sr, click spikes, maybe click an alternate move that you have on your particular set, and then die. it's so pathetically easy to utilize and take advantage of its massive defensive stats and cavernous movepool that it removes a lot of the skill element from the game. instead of having actual competition, all you're doing when playing against deo-d is trying to guess its moveset and then figure out what a safe switch in would be based on that moveset. it's an issue for offensive teams, but a flat out catastrophe for stall, since it's especially hard to take down deo-d before it gets a ton of hazards up when none of your pokemon are meant to have an offensive presence in the match. i recently played an spl game against shakeitup where i brought sand stall and he had deo-d offense. there was basically nothing i could do against his deo-d, so it ended up getting three layers of hazards before i finally killed it off, basically hindering me for the rest of the match and causing my eventual demise. stall as a playstyle is made practically useless by the presence of deo-d.

    so yeah, that's why i vote ban. i can understand the arguments for both sides, but the ban arguments definitely make a lot more sense to me. i get that it can't cover all its checks with only one set, but the fact that it can potentially beat any one of its supposed checks with a particular move or combination of moves is enough for me to see, in conjunction with its bulk and unpredictability, why it needs to go.

    also yeah 7th suspect vote! one more and my badge turns grey :toast:
  11. AJC

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    well voters have spoken a 59.34% uber vote means deo-d gets the boot from OU and into ubers.
  12. Hiphopanonymous

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    I never really cared about Deo-D, but I will admit this: It's rise to Ubers will hopefully mean that we all will see a little more variety in teams now. Deo-D + 5 sweepers was rather boring to see after the first six hundreds times.
  13. Shining_Latios

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    How can you say that was boring to see when rain is everywhere? You are over exaggerating. And Deo-D going to Ubers doesn't mean there will be more variety, imo. If anything, the ban will make people use weather even more.
  14. Magcargo

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    The rise of deoxys-d means that deoxys-d is now, once again, a mediocre uber pokemon.
  15. yondie

    yondie I feel a little bit, like, I'm the Braveheart of creativity.
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    [youtube]2zUWXKThqHw[/youtube]
  16. Scorpiopt

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    I agree with the ban , it was way too bulky and hard to counter
  17. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Can't say this vote wasn't obvious. Aw wells #rainspam -___-
  18. flamingfire77

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    My Tyranitar always easily 2HKO'd it, and it only got Stealth Rocks up.
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