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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Feb 4, 2013.

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  1. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Thanks to its blistering base 115 Speed and great supporting movepool, Azelf works as the second-best dual screener in the game, falling short of only Deoxys-S. This set helps more frail Pokemon such as Sharpedo and Porygon-Z set up and begin their sweeps, as it supplies them with a temporary defensive boost from Light Screen and Reflect. Taunt shuts down opposing Taunt users, walls, and in extreme cases, setup sweepers. This can also help keep hazards off Azelf's side of the field until setup is complete. Stealth Rock is great for general team support, damaging the opponent upon switching in, and breaking any stray Focus Sashes that might delay the sweep of a teammate.

    Read this and tell me its not outright telling you this is a mini Deoxys-S, a pokemon that outclass Deoxys-D. Azelf is way more threatining than Deoxys-D, speed means everything simply put. Has Azelf ever been suspected for BL at least? No. What makes Deoxys-D any more ban worthy to ubers?
  2. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    You know what though? Deoxys-D actually has a set that reliably deals with every single spinner without having to be offensive. In fact, I'm kinda surprised that no one has brought it up because I started seeing it quite a bit after the Genesect ban. Choice Scarf Trick Doexys-D is a thing, and it sucks. A lot. I've been using Kyurem on my team lately and whenever there's a Deoxys-D lead, I usually just set up a sub with Kyurem, knowing that he is a huge threat behind a sub and I can maybe go into Tentacruel and spin later in the game if I have to. Problem is, I can't count the number of times I've gone for the sub only to get locked into it because fucking Deoxys-D was a Choice Scarf variant. This also helps it deal with Magic Bounce users (though it won't take away their ability, it will make them pretty useless). This set usually doesn't have Stealth Rock either since it would usually be better to lock oneself into Spikes instead. Point is, that's a really good set I've seen, and I'm kind of surprised no one had brought it up yet.
  3. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Probably because that...?
  4. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    You're so cute. I meant (and I'm pretty sure anyone with half a brain could tell from the context of my post) that it sucks to face. In other words, in case you still haven't gotten my point, it's annoying. How about, instead of highlighting a line taken out of context, you tell me why that set sucks. Cause I would love to lock Starmie, Forretress, Donphan, Tentacruel, Xatu, Espeon, etc into one move for the whole game (which, by the way, makes them much much easier to revenge kill)
  5. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    Deoxys was never used as a Screener. And NO. Azelf Definitely doesn't Outclass Deoxys-D, at what we're discussing here. Hazards.
  6. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    You know what else is very subjective? Brokenness! For example, in the Genesect suspect test, there were many people who thought Genesect was broken, and many people who thought it was not broken.

    The truth is, subjectivity is completely unavoidable in Pokemon. Some people may find a Pokemon game-breaking and some others might not find it game-breaking. There will never be full agreement on brokenness because brokenness is not an objective concept. Thoughts on brokenness are shaped by, you guessed it, a player's experiences with the Pokemon! I don't normally use Wikipedia for stuff, but...

    Judging by what I've seen in... well, every suspect test, I'm pretty sure this does not hold true with brokenness. At all.

    Anyway, I have not decided for sure on my opinion on Deoxys-D yet (I have to play the suspect ladder before I decide on if it should be banned or not), I can say that my experiences using Deoxys-D are... Well, Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes at the very least are unbelievably easy to get, and it's actually not that difficult to keep hazards up (at least I think it's easy). I think I saw someone saying "well Deoxys-D is the face of weatherless offense"... I have quite a few weatherless offense teams without Deoxys-D (my 1k RMT is one of them) and they all function perfectly fine in the metagame. We shouldn't let stuff like that influence our decisions anyway. I haven't decided on my opinion on Deoxys-D for sure yet, but I can see legitimate arguments for both sides. However, I lean slightly towards the "ban" side judging by how little effort it takes to win games with Deo-D teams, if any. I don't like having automatic win buttons in my metagames.
  7. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    But with brokenness you can actually find an overwhelming majority (due to usual obvioisness with better tier pkayers) whereas a healthy metagame..., you can't. Brokenness isn't as subjective as the definition to a healthy meta game.
  8. Rex Exploder

    Rex Exploder

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    Why not?
    Azelf is fast. With Focus Sash that he usually carries unless he is a double screener, he can survive Scizor and Azumarill and at least set up Stealth Rock. His only impedment are pranksters [rare], and bouncers [also rare]

    The fact is, unless you suck at it, it's hilariously easy to put rocks in the game with Azelf. If your whole argument against Deoxys-D is based around "he can put rocks 100% of the time!" then we might as well ban Azelf too
  9. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Define "overwhelming majority".

    Also, how do you know we can't find it for a healthy metagame? This post makes no sense. Please, explain to me what your thinking is, because I'm just not seeing it. I'm sure if you had the right metagame, you could get a consensus on "healthy metagame".
  10. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Lol @ deoxys was never used as a screener... That was its most threatening set and spammed on the ladder with shell smashers and dragon dancers
  11. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Subjective itself can be subjective. One could simply say that kyogre is not broken cause ludicolo and gastrodon wall it. Is this true? Deoxys-D doesnt do anything that other hazard users dont, he just happen to have good bulk. As i said he is a good mon who is just fine in OU. Theres no reason to ban it.
  12. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    @ the Guy above.
    If it were so easy. Azelf would be OU and Deo-D UU. But it the other way round.


    Deoxys-D***

    Sigh, I'm tired. Bed Time.
  13. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Goddammit people we're only six pages in, could we please at least TRY not to turn this into a shitfest so early this time?

    I do not want to see anymore useless or unsubstantiated posts, and I do not want to see any more ad hominem.
  14. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are here
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    The point that Deo-D outclasses Azelf is that while azelf can pretty much get SR up unless crobat or sableye, Deoxys has both ways to beat taunt that are perfectly within reason to use. Azelf must use a sash while deoxys has bulk for free, meaning deo can use mental herb or magic coat, very common items. Deo also has spikes, further increasing it's worth over azelf.

    But that's not the point.

    The point is that Deoxys has ways to beat each spinner or hazard blocker that comes in. This is similar to having "no counters" as an offensive pokemon. But while hydreigon can't be walled, it can still be revenge killed, blocked based on its moveset, etc. However, Deoxys-D is broken in my opinion because of the way it makes you play into its hand every time. Comparing it to hydreigon again, if it doesn't have Dark Pulse it's walled by Jellicent or psychic-types, no earthquake any steel-type in the rain, no fire blast ferrrothorn, no superpower blissey. These are all common defensive pivots found on many teams, including offensive ones. However, while there are "multiple" ways to beat deoxys, they are generally only good at beating deoxys. Sableye, Xatu, Starmie, and Forretress all have their place, but you'll never see more than one of these at a time. By maintaining CONSTANT pressure on you, meaning that if you do nothing you will have a huge disadvantage in the form of deo putting up hazards each turn, you must act immediately and quickly to disable deoxys as fast as possible. This means that the opponent knows exactly what you're going to do, and each of the possible deoxys checks can be beaten with the correct and viable move. If you lead with your taunter it reflects it with magic coat. If you don't then it gets one hazard up while you switch to your taunter. In a completely different scenario, if you have a magic bouncer that you switch to from your lead it can skill swap you and set up. If you switch to your dragonite or setup sweeper it gets one hazard on the switch and can twave you. If you lead with your setup sweeper it can twave you in the first place and get one hazard up next turn. Since nothing can reliably OHKO it outside of CBtar, which is slower anyway, it will always get up one hazard of its choice, or a status and twave and hazard off. When using other suicide leads the best-case scenario is to get up stealth rock and die immediately. When you face deoxys, this is your BEST hope with CBtar. At best for you, it gets up SR. At worst, it sets up all hazards among other things in your face.
  15. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    A Scarf set seems like an interesting option to solve these problems that Deo-D teams have with set-up sweepers like Volcarona and Thundurus-T. However, I am always forgeting if the mechanics would allow Volcarona to be locked on Quiver Dance if a Scarf was tricked to it BEFORE it used Quiver Dance (if the trick user is slower, the opponent can still choose which move it can use)

    The problem is that it could be potentially locked on one move and thus rendered useless against some leads. I will test this set and see which results it could bring.
  16. G-Von

    G-Von

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    Man oh MAN there is a bunch of hostility going on in this suspect thread. As for my opinion on whether Deo-D is broken or not, I'm not sure what I support. It definitely is a tough thing to bring down because of having an immense support move pool, reliable recovery, and many viable sets to choose from based on how someone's team is built. It is the face of HO much like Politoed and Ninetales being the faces of their weather play-styles.

    I also don't have too much experience using Deo-D, but on the off chance that I have used him, he was a major part of fucking over the opposing team. Magic Coat was a huge boon to the set. It's been a while since I've used it, but I'm pretty sure I used it with MC/Spikes/Recover/Night Shade with a Rocky Helmet and specially defensive.

    What are its downsides? Well it cannot really utilize an efficient offensive set with 70 base attacking stats. Xatu and Espeon are pretty solid stops to most Deo-D, too. I guess if they attack it while DNA has a Red Card they'll get forced out, but that still doesn't stop Xatu or Espeon from coming back in and bouncing back any harzards or status move. That Trick Choice Scarf set would be interesting to use against the MB'ers but Espeon is pretty powerful and wouldn't mind it too much.

    Looking at everything, this thing is pretty tough to stop. Depending on the set its running, it can be set up fodder, but Taunt/T-wave can ruin that. After reading most posts and typing this post out, I would be more inclined to vote Ban if I were to get reqs.
  17. thesynchrohero

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    252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Deoxys-D (+Def) : 67.11% - 78.95%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile (+Atk) Night Slash vs 252 HP/252 Def Deoxys-D (+Def) : 53.29% - 62.17%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    252 Atk Choice Band Weavile (+Atk) Night Slash vs 0 HP/0 Def Deoxys-D: 98.34% - 117.01%
    87.5% chance to OHKO

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-D Psycho Boost vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Kyurem-B: 47.8% - 56.39%
    2-3 hits to KO

    Problem solved via the speed of Weavile and the power of kyurem-b, plus Deo-D normally doesn't run max Def so you can do even more to him. The offensive LO set can't outpace adamant Weavile either.
  18. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    nonsense, the hazard setter was always the primary concern.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3967990&postcount=27
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3968044&postcount=33
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3968506&postcount=67
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3968809&postcount=87

    etc etc i could go on and on because i was active in that discussion at the time and know exactly how it went but i've just quoted a handful of recognised and accomplished players so i'm sure that's good enough for anybody reading this.
  19. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    THIS.

    Thank you sir. This is the tl;dr version of what I've been saying for the past 2 pages. (and an almost exact list of issues which I had originally listed on page 2)

    And before some one else says 'OMG just use rapid spin, spinblockerz in OU suck, you're doing it wrong'

    This is not about how easily you can spin away Deo-D.
    I'll say this again and probably for good. Deo-D gets it's job done and reliably. It's godly bulk lets it fend off most attacks and force you to use very niche sets to check it completely. Because of that you're under constant pressure to keep it at bay. Magic Bouncers, Taunters, CB-Tars, Set Up Mons all have their places but Deo-D has a movepool to deal with everyone of them. It's like the defensive metaphor of Genesect.

    I have made these points very clear very early on and evidently from the reply of some of my detractors all haven't read that.

    And 'We can work around rocks' isn't a very convincing argument. if you're good enough you can work around most of the past suspects which were declared uber. It is about how it affects the general metagame as a whole with all players, good and bad involved.

    Let there be peace and constructive enquiry

    And no Azelf can't hold a candle to Deoxys-D if you people are still going on about that.
  20. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    as a prelude i'll say that i voted deo-s uber, but i don't believe deo-d to be broken. i think it's important to consider and compare the factors that made the speed forme broken due to the essentially identical role they play[ed] as versatile and extremely efficient dual hazard setters that many deem to be a toxic presence in the metagame. also i've seen ppl say deo-d should be banned by extension from deo-s which is actually retarded.

    obviously the major component of its uber counterpart that deo-d lacks is the speed stat which filters into two huge setbacks that i think separate it and prevent it from being broken. first, the slower taunt causes it to be a setup fodder liability against a number of ever-present threats in high level play such as thund-t, terak, volcarona. in many cases you are taking a large risk by sending deo-d into the field because these powerhouses will pick you apart when spoonfed free turns. therefore, deo-d is not something you can just throw out and dgf set up hazards while not taking into account your opponents' moves, i.e. playing with skill, which was something you could do with deo-s.

    another crucial hindrance from deo-d's speed is the fact that there are plenty of hard hitters in this gen capable of 2hkoing it and limiting it to sr that both outpace it and aren't susceptible to a surprise ko such as latios. this is bw niggas we have the tools, unload your stabs on that subpar typing and call it a day. myzoazoa brought up that deo-d in preview evokes exploitable, overly honest lead play from the opposing side and i think this is more of a problem with the player in the same vein as not taking deo-d appropriately into account in teambuilding and being comfortable simply letting scizor eat a potential hp fire then saying o bw. i was huge proponent of deo-d in bw1, but the even greater offensive boom of bw2 has not been kind to it and there are a plethora of viable options to deal with it.

    last point ima make is that this is a tier where the spinners largely outclass the spin blockers so that deo-d's supposedly unstoppable support force is either impossible to sustain throughout a match or forces the deo-d player into a confounded strategy utilizing multiple team slots. 2 layers of hazards (which is the maximum you should be getting bar misplays) will not give you enough of an advantage if you are suiciding your deo-d, saccing your ghost, and dedicating another slot to pursuit trap my starmie.

    on a flavor note, i really don't like to post anymore but this newfag suffocation of these threads followed by brainless newfag masses bandwagoning has really corrupted the suspect process. imo being able to wade through the shit of ps for x hours isn't enough to determine competent voters that will represent this site with their decision. i'd feel safer with a council that added in eo/heist/mcmeghan and just keep a discussion thread for them to monitor... wutevz.
  21. Melee Mewtwo

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    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 200-238 (65.78 - 78.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 134-160 (44.07 - 52.63%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 160-188 (52.63 - 61.84%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 107-126 (35.19 - 41.44%) -- 78.13% chance to 3HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye in rain: 160-188 (52.63 - 61.84%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO

    4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 82-97 (26.97 - 31.9%) -- possible 4HKO

    0 SpA Tentacruel Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye in rain: 102-121 (33.55 - 39.8%) -- 25.1% chance to 3HKO

    0 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 160-189 (52.63 - 62.17%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO

    0 Atk burned Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 80-94 (26.31 - 30.92%) -- possible 4HKO

    252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 216-255 (71.05 - 83.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk burned Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 108-127 (35.52 - 41.77%) -- 86.84% chance to 3HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 142-169 (46.71 - 55.59%) -- 17.19% chance to 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 109-129 (35.85 - 42.43%) -- 91.21% chance to 3HKO


    Did I miss any relevant spinner? Seriously guys, if it wasn't for SpDef CMSableye and Custap Crustle I would have had a difficult time laddering for the Outsiders challenge. (Just providing an example to prove I'm not just theorymonin' here) These calcs show that Sableye can easily beat Starmie including LO Hydro Pump if it switches into Rapid Spin or some other irrelevant move. (LO Surf straight up loses) Tentacruel also loses to CM Sableye if it is the common T-Spikes variant (which sucks but people still use it) and even the SubToxic can't spin thanks to Sableye. Almost everytime I would just CM twice, bust their Sub, WoW and then Shadow Ball spam til I eventually died. Tenta normally comes out alive but it is so weakened (and lost Rain Dish thanks to burn) that you can just bring in one of your sweepers and you will never have to worry about him again. Donphan is rare but the defensive variants are too weak while the offensive ones have to catch him with EQ on the switch-in. However, Sableye isn't just some super specialized spin blocker. I actually started using him as a check to the dreaded Sheer Force Landorus. If you get Sableye in safely (after a kill or something, you are HO remember) you can CM up in its face and proceed to counter sweep. Priority WoW also cripples those annoying DD Dragons and Salac/RP Terrakion. I mention these as they are major annoyances for HO teams which means that you actually have a good reason to use him on one of yours. I'm not trying to say that Sableye is an uber level spin blocker or anything but if you are tired of relying on Gengar to get the job done, here is another option you can consider. (As for Rain LO Starmie's with Hydro Pump, there isn't anything you can do about that but I didn't want to talk about it much cause that requires the Starmie user to pick two members just to spin against Deo-D teams. At that point, you might as well count Weavile as we are getting into team vs team.)


    As far as Deo-D itself, I don't think that anything that can make SR + Spikes normal battle conditions to be healthy for OU. (So this also includes those Sturdy double hazards mons I mentioned earlier that can abuse Custap to get the same results.)
  22. Conflict

    Conflict And who are you, the proud lord said That I must bow so low?
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    So you are using 252 HP / 252 SDef Sableye with CM, WoW, Shadow Ball and Recover just to prevent the Spinners from spinning vs you in your Deo-D team. So asidem from starting 5-6 (Deo-D down) and with 2-3 Hazards up you also utilize a Mon with a rather 'bad' set (without defense Sableye cant switch into and consequently counter several threats like Terrakion or Scizor+no Taunt so everything fucks with Sableye) to protect these few Hazards. If you want to guarantee something that badly and put that much effort into it the more power to you. Good luck creating a team that can deal with everything being basically down 4-6 just to prevent spinning.

    and by the way: 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye in rain: 302-356 (99.34 - 117.1%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

    Will post more later when i have more time at hand, but so far badabing and myzozoa made some good points which i agree with.
  23. Melee Mewtwo

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    Nah, like I said, I used it in the Outsiders challenge to check RP Lando and DD Dragons. The spinblocking was a nice surprise I discovered after using it. It ended up being the MVP of the team, I had to get myself to stop trying to pulling an early game sweep cause he's too much of a hax magnet to get that 20 initial win streak for the high ladder ranking. He is incredibly hard to stop cause with WoW and 2+ CMs just about nothing can hit hard enough to wall break it leaving you to rely on indirect methods to stop it. In this HO metagame those weren't too common and the surprise of the set usually meant the opponent didn't take extra care to protect the only thing that kept me from a stupidly easy game. Before you knock it, at least try to test it out a bit (maybe you can find a better spread, I just used this one cause it beat Lando and it never failed me to a point that I felt it needed anything else.) and at the very least read my whole post as I addressed the Rain Starmie issue. (If you really need an example, I can link you to my Outsiders challenge peak. You can easily imagine how much easier it is to be successful with the titanic sweepers like Terrakion instead of stuff like Kingdra.)
  24. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Isn't CM Sableye a little, like, using Golurk and saying that Terrakion isn't a threat? Sableye might work but most DeoD's spin blockers are generally outclassed by spinners (namely Starmie, that spread you are using is the most defensive it gets, and after rocks it's ohko'ed in rain). I think it's more than safe to say spinners shut down DeoD, much like Sun. I understand that Sanleye works, but that's like, overboard out of your way support, much like Golirk.
  25. yee

    yee
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    A couple of points that need to repeated:

    1. Starmie is not that ridiculously hard to beat for Deo-D, you can just throw on a Ghost and ScarfTar and it's almost hopeless. It is definitely one of the easiest pokemon in the game to play Voltturn + Pursuit against.

    2. I'll have to talk for BKC here and say that what he means is Deo-D IS broken, because it clearly weakens the correlation between in game battling skill and victories. I'll be stunned if anyone actually tries to argue against that, but the point is it's a tailor made reason to call something unhealthy and / or broken.

    3. Myzozoa can only win a pokemon game because he uses this.
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