np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

[MMII]

Like I said, I used SpDef Sableye to check major threats to HO like RP Lando and DD Dragons. I was expecting (when I was theorymoning the team) that I would use offensive pressure to keep the hazards up (which works cause HO teams love the free turn you give them when you spin) with Sableye being a nice cushion. It ended up being the other way around with CM Sableye being an amazing win condition that would turn many games in my favor. This is the key difference with Golurk, who sucks at anything outside of countering Terrakion whereas Sableye can carry games.

As for Rain, you are now comparing Starmie + Politeod vs Sableye + Deo-D (or whatever double hazard setter you like). At that point, we are comparing the match-up of two teams instead of Deo-D versus other Pokemon.

Anyways, Sableye was just another way you can deal with spinners on a HO team. (Since nobody is happy with Gengar anymore) There are plenty of ways to keep your hazards up.

 

[Halcyon.]

Like I said, I used SpDef Sableye to check major threats to HO like RP Lando and DD Dragons. I was expecting (when I was theorymoning the team) that I would use offensive pressure to keep the hazards up (which works cause HO teams love the free turn you give them when you spin) with Sableye being a nice cushion. It ended up being the other way around with CM Sableye being an amazing win condition that would turn many games in my favor. This is the key difference with Golurk, who sucks at anything outside of countering Terrakion whereas Sableye can carry games.

I think this is really important to consider in this suspect test. Not only does Deoxys-D set up hazards, but it also forces you to spin. You have to find a good opportunity to send in your spinner and then also find a good time to actually spin, which, even if successful, means you've given a free turn to the opponent. In that one turn they can get a free switch, set up their sweeper, or take out your spinner (which is most likely either a wall of yours [Donphan, Tentacruel], an offensive presence [Starmie, Sandslash] or your own hazards setter [Forretress]). A free turn to a hyper offensive team is a Godsend, and it could very well be the turn that costs you the match.

 

[Soul Fly]

Yes this is a very important aspect. Some people are missing this.

All the suspect tests till now (Bar Deo-S maybe) have exclusively been about nerfing offensive threats so people often tend to correlate broken-ness to how long it can stay alive or how easy it is to eliminate. Just because this gen has had a ridiculous power creep making defensive pokemon less viable, Threats such as Deo-D tend to be underrated to a large extent.

With deo-d it is imperative to try a different approach. We must look at what all it brings to the table with that guaranteed hazard set up for all offensive/hyper offensive. Setting up requires one move, and that's it. With constant pressure from hazards up 100% of the time you are really pressured in your xwish (switch prediction) gaming or you tend to gamble away a free turn just because you HAVE to rapid spin soon to avoid wearing down your team. The Hazards don't even need to last like till the end of the match. The amount of pressure it puts on standard teams v/s the window of opportunity it gives to HO teams is very great.
I earlier talked about how maintaining momentum is key to winning matches, this is kind of an extension to that.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I've already made many good arguments earlier but here is a hard hard counter to deo-d guaranteeing that only with absolutely meticulously thought out prediction and the right movepool will ensure 1 layer of hazards at best:

Scarf Scizor + Xatu. (you need to have skill swap and predict scizor is faster than you...)

Also when even pokemon like crunch SD Lucario and standard Haxorus can prevent her doing more than 1 layer, you have a pokemon that you can almost always find a pokemon on your team accounting for. (Deo-D can not risk letting Lucario set up and so must taunt first turn for example).

We must stop drawing parallels to Deo-S, she was a true face of hyper offense with ensured screens, fastest taunt, being able to ignore scarf tricks and keep her light clay, offensive power superior to Deo-D and if you really wanted? You could even set up layers of hazards as well. Heck if you really wanted you didn't need to invest in speed to outdo Jolteon!

 

[Soul Fly]

Scarf Scizor + Xatu.

That right there is a very fine example of Overcentralization.

Scarf Scizor. Oh god.

Band and SD sets outclass it in every possible manner.

But then as gimmicky as it is. But I must admit it is a thing. A pretty questionable thing apart from a very nice techniloom/conkeldurr/virizion/Steel counter. It's like one of the least used offensive Scizor sets (at a paltry 2%) but a thing nonetheless.
I personally haven't faced more than one or two of those in 2 generations of OU play.

 

[Shurtugal]

If we're going to be mentioning Sableye than we can mention Scarf Scizor imo.

Though I wouldn't mention Scarf Scizor or Sabelye tbh

 

[Deluks917]

Posting to say I apreciate MM posting stuff he actually used to good effect.

Also I don't see what is wrong with Scarf scizor or Sableye. Both have been good for me personally (though not in context of Deo-D).

Also Deo-D + Jellicent is not bad imo. Jellicent does not have great sysnergy with Deo-D but the fact it is by far the best pokemon against rain goes a long way. I tried it and thought it was as good as most Deo-D teams I tried.

edit: Scrf Scizor was used alot in DPP and there was no Deo-d there.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I just mentioned scarf Scizor because this is literally what the thread has become.

At the end of the day I can not see a solid argument for banning Deo-D at all, I have not seen a single one compelling enough to convince me that Deo-D is a "better" (let alone broken) hazard user than other pokemon, just simply that it is "better" used in the lead position and with offensive teams. Yes it has reliable SR and unreliable spikes, but other pokemon have both yet are simply not geared to offensive teams.

Really as said earlier, a lot of the arguments for banning Deo-D really just sound like players don't want to deal with one of the better hazard users, it is not inherently broken nor overpowering nor overcetnralising as Excadrill, Politoed and Politoed inherently are.

 

[Schpoonman]

Habib, you are proving the idea that Deo-D is too much if we're reduced to Scarf Scizor. The only hazard setter who challenges Deo-D is Ferrothorn, but only in the rain to mitigate that brutal 4x Fire weakness, who cannot run two hazards reliably due to 4MSS, and not even close as a lead. Pro-tip: Having guaranteed hazards in the first three or four turns of a match with none on your side of the field is HUGE and you are showing how you don't have a clue what you're talking about in assuming that it's not that big a deal.

Look at the first page of the thread if you want a solid argument. Look at all the posts Lavos Spawn, Yee, and Ginganinja have left so far.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

Habib, you are proving the idea that Deo-D is too much if we're reduced to Scarf Scizor. The only hazard setter who challenges Deo-D is Ferrothorn, but only in the rain to mitigate that brutal 4x Fire weakness, who cannot run two hazards reliably due to 4MSS, and not even close as a lead. Pro-tip: Having guaranteed hazards in the first three or four turns of a match with none on your side of the field is HUGE and you are showing how you don't have a clue what you're talking about in assuming that it's not that big a deal.

Look at the first page of the thread if you want a solid argument. Look at all the posts Lavos Spawn, Yee, and Ginganinja have left so far.

Why are you ignoring my former post then. I gave plenty of examples of how to deal with Deo-D. I'll copy paste and add them here.

Hide

Why Deo-D is predictable:

-It is almost exclusively used in the lead position and will almost exclusively carry one or no attacking moves
-It is almost exclusively attached to the same team archetype (hyper offense or otherwise a similar hazard abusing/needing team structure)
-It is almost exclusively using the same set with a little variation, mental herb/rocky helmet/red card as items with hazards/taunt/magic coat/attacking move as its options.
-It is one dimensional as it is incredibly difficult to find another set to work on it.


How easy Deo-D is to counter:

-U turn lead + magic bounce
-Band/Specs/SE moves that can 2hko, Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar, etc
-Faster taunt users, Keldeo, Terrakion, Gliscor, etc
-Mons to set up on it, such as gengar
-Rapid spin user - (the Gengar switch in is SO predictable) (u can even lead with donphan.. of all pokemon... and spam rapid spin :)
-Team that doesn't mind SR

This is in a VERY VERY VERY strong contrast to the requirements needed in order to counter a rain team or a sun team, consider a weatherless team's building process.

1. How to manage Deo-D > Just use LO+Taunt Keldeo and smash holes in their team
2. How to manage rain > Said Keldeo + Celebi to check water/electric + Skarmory to check hurricane/Jirachi whilst making sure there are minimal fire attackers and minimal water weak pokemon
3. How to manage sun + hail + sand > Said keldeo + Celebi + Skarmory + Heatran to wall some Venusaur and fire sweepers/hail + Scarfed Latios incase shit hits the fan
4. How to manage everything else: Said Team + Landorus-T to give a more reliable check to pokemon that otherwise threaten the team.

Notice that countering Deo-D was the easiest part of the teambuilding process.....

As someone who has experimented with Deoxys-D and found it rather lackluster ESPECIALLY in higher tier games, I am not speaking out of my arse here.

ie: volcarona on your team? paranoid about SR? Just lead with it and 2hko Deo-D. Scarf scizor + Xatu was an example of how to ENSURE u beat Deo-D because in the thread peopler were reduced to: "Scarf gar will block Starmie and ermargherd Deo-D gets two moves to deal with as many counters as possible.

If you are running 2 or 3 pokemon to accomodate for rain (lets face it, if you go past 1800 you are) why is running 1 pokemon to accomodate for Deo-D so difficult? Anything that can 2hko it is a good start as a pokemon that can limit her to SR only! Hippodown is another viable sturdy SR user but is simply hardly viable in the lead position (thanks to being shut down by taunt).

The good thing about Deo-D is that it brings both of the important hazards to HO teams in ONE teamslot and does it VIABLY from the start. Give them a chance!

 

[Lavos]

If you are running 2 or 3 pokemon to accomodate for rain (lets face it, if you go past 1800 you are) why is running 1 pokemon to accomodate for Deo-D so difficult?

as i've been reiterating through the entire duration of this thread, deoxys-d is so hard to get around because it can run a plethora of different options, and depending on which options it chooses, your previously hard counter is now easy setup fodder. running one pokemon to accomodate for deo-d could mean a ton of different things, including bandtar, forretress, tentacruel, starmie, xatu, and espeon (and as for stuff like volcarona, who's going to lead deo-d when they see volc in team preview? cbtar says hi anyways). deo-d has moves and sets to beat all of those. superpower ohkos cbtar, fire gem hp fire ohkos forretress, psychic gem psycho boost ohkos tenta (and w/o gem still does 80%), electric gem tbolt ohkos starmie and xatu, and both the magic bouncers are also completely nullified by skill swap. not to mention stuff like sableye, terrakion, aerodactyl, etc. (faster taunt users in general) are also turned into free hazards by either taunt + mental herb or just magic coat. have i answered your question sufficiently? running one pokemon to accomodate for deo-d is so difficult because deo-d's versatility means that sometimes your deo-d counter is now deo-d fodder.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

as i've been reiterating through the entire duration of this thread, deoxys-d is so hard to get around because it can run a plethora of different options, and depending on which options it chooses, your previously hard counter is now easy setup fodder. running one pokemon to accomodate for deo-d could mean a ton of different things, including bandtar, forretress, tentacruel, starmie, xatu, and espeon (and as for stuff like volcarona, who's going to lead deo-d when they see volc in team preview? cbtar says hi anyways). deo-d has moves and sets to beat all of those. superpower ohkos cbtar, fire gem hp fire ohkos forretress, psychic gem psycho boost ohkos tenta (and w/o gem still does 80%), electric gem tbolt ohkos starmie and xatu, and both the magic bouncers are also completely nullified by skill swap. not to mention stuff like sableye, terrakion, aerodactyl, etc. (faster taunt users in general) are also turned into free hazards by either taunt + mental herb or just magic coat. have i answered your question sufficiently? running one pokemon to accomodate for deo-d is so difficult because deo-d's versatility means that sometimes your deo-d counter is now deo-d fodder.

0 Atk Deoxys-D Superpower vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 240-284 (62.17 - 73.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Lies.
Back on the reply, the same could be said about other pokemons. Run a specific move to get around its counters. As i said i want to hear a better argument, then ill agree with a ban.

 

[MMII]

Hide

ScarfPolitoed (Has to use Hydro Pump, though)
Landorus-I
LO/CB Landorus-T
SpecsJolteon
CB/Scarf Scizor (make sure you have something else after the U-Turn to finish it off)
LO Alakazam
Jolly/Scarf Haxorus
Specs Starmie
SD Rock Gem/CB Terrakion
CB Infernape
Volcarona
LO/Specs Keldeo
Salamence
Gengar
Scarf/CB Tyranitar
Scarf Victini
CB Staraptor
Weavile
Specs Kyurem
Specs Lati@s
Timid Hydreigon (Dark Pulse is a must for LO)
Offensive Ninetails

Here's a list of all the OU Pokemon that limit Deo-D is SR via brute force + speed. (I ignored most UU sets, stuff like Chandelure, Heracross, Accelgor, etc.)

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

as i've been reiterating through the entire duration of this thread, deoxys-d is so hard to get around because it can run a plethora of different options, and depending on which options it chooses, your previously hard counter is now easy setup fodder. running one pokemon to accomodate for deo-d could mean a ton of different things, including bandtar, forretress, tentacruel, starmie, xatu, and espeon (and as for stuff like volcarona, who's going to lead deo-d when they see volc in team preview? cbtar says hi anyways). deo-d has moves and sets to beat all of those. superpower ohkos cbtar, fire gem hp fire ohkos forretress, psychic gem psycho boost ohkos tenta (and w/o gem still does 80%), electric gem tbolt ohkos starmie and xatu, and both the magic bouncers are also completely nullified by skill swap. not to mention stuff like sableye, terrakion, aerodactyl, etc. (faster taunt users in general) are also turned into free hazards by either taunt + mental herb or just magic coat. have i answered your question sufficiently? running one pokemon to accomodate for deo-d is so difficult because deo-d's versatility means that sometimes your deo-d counter is now deo-d fodder.

As an OU player, clearly you will know that many pokemon have options to break past "counters". Is a Deo-D with a built in way of dealing with or two of its counters going to be as successful otherwise? When you teambuild, you build for what you are most likely to expect. I mean Lucario can run nasty plot with HP ice to get past Gliscor or perhaps it can use agility to troll scarf magnezone.

But just as most Lucario are SD with bullet punch/crunch being the only variation to the set, the vast majority of Deo-D will have taunt, 2 hazards and a choice of an attacking option or non-attacking option.

Even if you do run into something "you don't expect" why not just run something foolproof, like a banded Garchomp or even standard special attacking Landorus, neither even fear the occasional thunderwave.

Again it's becoming an issue of "I don't want to deal with Deoxys-D", the funny part is if you can prevent a Deo-D from doing its basic function of 2 hazards you are basically beating the whole team.

Inb4 I suddenly encounter HP ice ice gem Deoxys-D because it "deals with Garchomp" ... lol.

 

[Schpoonman]

Because even one layer of guaranteed hazards is that good. Excadrill ran one set and we banned it. Blaziken ran one set and we banned it (I've been swept by it Baton Passing to something else, but last I checked that wasn't actually legal). Torn-T ran two sets (LO or Specs) and we banned it. Predictability does not mean a Pokémon is not broken.

Lemme break down why each of your "counters" is not a good answer.
1) "U-turn lead + Magic Bounce"

This not only requires two Pokémon, but it requires two highly specialized Pokémon that are NOT very viable beyond this "counter".​

2) "Band/Specs/SE moves that can 2hko, Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar, etc"

This does nothing to stop Deo-D from getting his first layer of hazards up, nor does it prevent him from switching into something that makes your Choice user incredible set-up bait, NOR does it prevent Red Card from activating.​

3) "Faster taunt users, Keldeo, Terrakion, Gliscor, etc"

Mental Herb and Magic Coat shut down opposing Taunts, and with Mental Herb Deo-D very often carries Taunt on his own which means you just let Deo-D get potentially multiple layers of hazards up.​

4) "Mons to set up on it, such as Gengar"

Once again, Red Card exists and is a very common item on Deo-D specifically to fuck over Pokémon that try to use it as set-up fodder. And while you were boosting up to +6 or whatever bullshit you need to OHKO Deo-D, he set up full hazards and your forced switch-in is about to get cut in half by all that free damage.​

5) "Rapid spin user"

I can attest to how STUPID Rapid Spin has become in Gen V. You have to find a turn to bring in your Rapid Spinner, predict around the Ghost that is very likely accompanying Deo-D, and then find a turn to Spin, by which time one of Deo-D's other teammates have probably torn your team in half, because yes, Deo-D is most common on Hyper Offense.​

6) "Team that doesn't mind SR"

Teams that don't mind Stealth Rock are extremely rare and often don't like Spikes which ignores resistances to deal full damage, and whaddya know! Deo-D is the most infamous Spiker in the game.​

 

[Lavos]

0 Atk Deoxys-D Superpower vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 240-284 (62.17 - 73.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Lies.
Back on the reply, the same could be said about other pokemons. Run a specific move to get around its counters. As i said i want to hear a better argument, then ill agree with a ban.

that's not the only argument, as i've been saying if you actually go back and read my previous posts, deoxys-d is broken not only because of its unrivaled versatility as a hazard setter, but also its fantastic base stats plus its unpredictability. there's no other pokemon that gets sr and spikes that is ou or below that has a base speed as high as deo-d, nor base defenses as high as deo-d, nor a movepool as diverse as deo-d, and that's the issue here. when you see a forretress in team preview, for example, two sets flash through your head: gyro ball and hp ice sets. that's basically all there is. forretress has no way of dealing with counters like, say, defensive tentacruel. deo-d, however, handles almost anything.

also, superpower deo-d isn't running 0 atk evs, and it also happens to carry a fighting gem, so if you do a legit calc instead of your false one:

64 Atk Fighting Gem Deoxys-D Superpower vs 180 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 100.52% - 119.17%

you only need 64 atk evs to ohko standard cbtar. that's practically nothing. enjoy maxing out hp and putting a ton of evs in speed and/or defensive stats while still ohko'ing the only thing that can actually ohko you...

 

[Schpoonman]

Because even one layer of guaranteed hazards is that good.

I'm gonna quote myself here because you people seem to be missing a very important point. Have you ever found it weird that the VAST majority of 4th Gen teams ran Stealth Rock and not a single hazard more? Did you ever wonder why, if they were going to run hazards, why not go full-hog and run Spikes, and maybe even Toxic Spikes, as well?

It's because they don't fucking need it. Rocks, and Rocks alone, are enough to turn the tide of a game. So shit like Garchomp, Lucario, and Terrakion don't care about Stealth Rocks (well, Sash Lucario does, which just reinforces my point), but they sure care about Spikes. Deoxys-D is also extremely effective at getting Spikes up.

There is so little a player can do to STOP Deo-D getting hazards up (and that's what's important here) and he does it for so little cost that the rest of his team is free to manhandle you.

 

[Vemane]

I'm gonna quote myself here because you people seem to be missing a very important point. Have you ever found it weird that the VAST majority of 4th Gen teams ran Stealth Rock and not a single hazard more? Did you ever wonder why, if they were going to run hazards, why not go full-hog and run Spikes, and maybe even Toxic Spikes, as well?

It's because they don't fucking need it. Rocks, and Rocks alone, are enough to turn the tide of a game. So shit like Garchomp, Lucario, and Terrakion don't care about Stealth Rocks (well, Sash Lucario does, which just reinforces my point), but they sure care about Spikes. Deoxys-D is also extremely effective at getting Spikes up.

There is so little a player can do to STOP Deo-D getting hazards up (and that's what's important here) and he does it for so little cost that the rest of his team is free to manhandle you.

But this is not true at all. 1 hazard will do shit, or at least nothing spectacular. If it did, not only would a ton of other pokes be "broken" like deo-d, but rocks themselves would be banned.

The argument for deoxys is that it can set up multiple layers and, thus, fuel hyper offense and circumvent the need for skill in matches.

I really don't understand the need for a suspect test ladder w/o deo-d though.

| 39 | Deoxys-Defense | 6.27287% | 54854 | 5.771% | 50248 | 6.559% |

It's not like he's really prevalent in the first place

 

[GatoDelFuego]

-U turn lead + magic bounce
-Band/Specs/SE moves that can 2hko, Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar, etc
-Faster taunt users, Keldeo, Terrakion, Gliscor, etc
-Mons to set up on it, such as gengar
-Rapid spin user - (the Gengar switch in is SO predictable) (u can even lead with donphan.. of all pokemon... and spam rapid spin :)
-Team that doesn't mind SR

Ok, here we have 6 "solutions" to deal with deoxys. I'll ignore the team one, because that's pretty silly and you'll still care about spikes. U-turn lead + Magic bounce is, as Bays said, inefficient in the requirement of two pokemon to break one hazard setter. I know this is grasping at straws and fills the moveslots, but skill swap is also viable. Let's take that off the table.

So, 4 methods: 2HKO with powerful moves, faster taunt, set up, or rapid spin.

Assuming deoxys has Spikes, SR, and Taunt, that means it has open one move and one item. This means it can beat two of these four strategies.

Let me break down rapid spin first: I'll focus on Donphan, as you mentioned that, as well as starmie. Let's say you have Donphan: the "so predictable" gengar switch results in you doing what? Stone edge? Donphan is pretty starved for moveslots as is, I'd say the most common one would be EQ+Rapid Spin+SR+Roar/Ice Shard. Even so, gengar can get a switch in for free, set up substitutes and disable your move to hit it with, unless roar in which we really got nowhere. It can also hit Donphan for some damage. Leading with donphan? If deoxys has psycho boost, then you're done. However, I think this is rare and donphan is better handled with gengar anyway.

Starmie: this has really been covered already, if deoxys has thunderbolt then you're in a bad position, meanwhile you can either attack or spam rapid spin, spamming rapid spin leaves you open to gengar, as I wouldn't think starmie can OHKO it. Attacking lets deo get a hazard off, and then if you spin they can just switch to gengar. There's lots of evidence already as this has been discussed a lot.


Moving on, we have 3 methods: 2HKO, fast taunt, or set up. Setting up, with gengar as you say? Deoxys will throw out all hazards in your face while you put a substitute up and won't really care if it dies. Boosting sweepers, such as volcarona or dragonite, can still be crippled by a twave.

Now, fast taunt. This can be beaten 2 ways: Magic coat and mental herb. Magic Coat will take the place of the fourth move and allow deo to taunt your taunter, and then set up. Mental Herb accomplishes the same result.

2HKO Deoxys: All made or broken by red card. Deo will at best get SR up already, and if it has red card then luck will result in a random switch, most likely resulting in another layer, maybe 2.


So, as I said before, we have an open moveslot and item slot on deoxys, as well as 3 strategies to shut down deoxys, excluding rapid spin, because I'm really not convinced it keeps deoxys from doing it's job and there have been lots of arguments made on it (it's also screwed by red card).

Setting up is counterd by a twave, 2HKO is countered by red card, fast taunt is countered by magic coat and mental herb. Assuming deoxys has a random combination of these four items/moves, excluding both magic coat and mental herb together, it has a 66% chance of beating things that are meant to shut it down. That means 2/3 times deoxys will be in a winning position against its "counter" methods. It may even get up SR against the one it is not prepared for.

That seems unhealthy to me.

The bottom line is that there are many "viable" strategies for beating deoxys, but it only needs to run one move/item to ruin each one. While deoxys can't beat all of them at the same time, it has a VERY high chance to beat the one you're using, and it's extremely pointless to use more than one of these strategies to beat deoxys; if anyone is going to say that this should be a step taken then look up the definition of overcentralizing.

 

[Schpoonman]

But this is not true at all. 1 hazard will do shit, or at least nothing spectacular. If it did, not only would a ton of other pokes be "broken" like deo-d, but rocks themselves would be banned.

The argument for deoxys is that it can set up multiple layers and, thus, fuel hyper offense and circumvent the need for skill in matches.

I really don't understand the need for a suspect test ladder w/o deo-d though.

| 39 | Deoxys-Defense | 6.27287% | 54854 | 5.771% | 50248 | 6.559% |

It's not like he's really prevalent in the first place

The argument, to my understanding, was guaranteed hazards. Any Pokémon with Spikes and Stealth Rock can set up multiple layers, that's not what the problem is. Deoxys-Defense and Deoxys-Speed are the only two Pokémon in the game that can be argued to guarantee entry hazards on your opponent's side of the field. That certainly contributed to Deoxys-S' ban, and it's becoming more and more apparent that Deoxys-D is the second coming.

 

[CatTurtle]

But this is not true at all. 1 hazard will do shit, or at least nothing spectacular. If it did, not only would a ton of other pokes be "broken" like deo-d, but rocks themselves would be banned.

The argument for deoxys is that it can set up multiple layers and, thus, fuel hyper offense and circumvent the need for skill in matches.

I really don't understand the need for a suspect test ladder w/o deo-d though.

| 39 | Deoxys-Defense | 6.27287% | 54854 | 5.771% | 50248 | 6.559% |

It's not like he's really prevalent in the first place

So maybe I'm wrong, because I am new and new are typically wrong but I don't think the fact that it can always get rocks up is entire reason it's broken.

The reason it is broken is because it can rather consistently get up multiple layers of hazards AND will always get up rocks. It is that no matter what rocks and that is enough to make him viable. The extra layers make him broken.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

that's not the only argument, as i've been saying if you actually go back and read my previous posts, deoxys-d is broken not only because of its unrivaled versatility as a hazard setter, but also its fantastic base stats plus its unpredictability. there's no other pokemon that gets sr and spikes that is ou or below that has a base speed as high as deo-d, nor base defenses as high as deo-d, nor a movepool as diverse as deo-d, and that's the issue here. when you see a forretress in team preview, for example, two sets flash through your head: gyro ball and hp ice sets. that's basically all there is. forretress has no way of dealing with counters like, say, defensive tentacruel. deo-d, however, handles almost anything.

also, superpower deo-d isn't running 0 atk evs, and it also happens to carry a fighting gem, so if you do a legit calc instead of your false one:

64 Atk Fighting Gem Deoxys-D Superpower vs 180 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 100.52% - 119.17%

you only need 64 atk evs to ohko standard cbtar. that's practically nothing. enjoy maxing out hp and putting a ton of evs in speed and/or defensive stats while still ohko'ing the only thing that can actually ohko you...

K. What do you do with tentacruel? and starmie? You cant handle EVERYTHING. Thats what im getting to. This is not a good argument. If Deoxys-D could handle everything then i would be pro-ban. But it cant so its just a good mon. Nothing more, nothing less. Also for the posts talkng about the awesomeness of rocks+1 layer of spikes. Please stop saying it is easy to lay hazards with Deoxys-D. ITS NOT. Its frustrating reading posts like ''deoxys-d can guarantee hazards up''. Just stop saying it. I've been used extensively and its retardly hard get anything more than rocks up. CBTar is quite common, espeon is annoying as fuck, theres prankster sableye and tornadus-i, a lot of stuff can surprise you (specstoed instead of bulkytoed), if your gengar goes down (easy to accomplish) and the oponent spins your hazards youre completely screwed. This happened a lot to me so just stop saying its easy cause its not.

 

[taxi driver]

My favorite team style is Deo-d so im kinda biased, but just from experience most good teams or battlers can usually limit deo-d to just sr most of the time. Also i've never seen superpower or thunder deo-d ever, in fact i've barely seen over half these sets people keep posting. Maybe thats because of deo-d 39th ranked usage idk.

Also sun is amazing on the suspect ladder atm

 

[ginganinja]

At everything in that hide tag. First I get "Taunt doesn't counter mental herb" and now I get "2hko doesn't counter red card", next i'll get "Offensive mon doesn't counter coverage move" but the reality is despite the burden being on your part to prevent Deo-D doing her job, she really can not run 4 items and 8 moves in a grand total of one item slot and 2 move slots...

Your missing the point. Deoxys-D IS BEATABLE, lets be clear here, its not like fucking Arceus or something. The point I (and I think others) are trying to make is that if you don't pack multiple counters to Deoxys-D, you will lose to Deoxys-D if it just changes its item or something minor such as this. This isn't like EQ Latios, Deoxys-D has many viable and effective methods of getting past its counters, all it needs is a single item change, or a single moveslot change, or a slight EV change, and suddenly the counter you packed just got owned by Deoxys-D. Remember, you ahve no way in hell at knowing what item / moveset / EV spread its using, and that is the heart of the problem. It was part of the reason we banned Deoxys-S, and its why Deoxys-D is being considered a suspect, because their are common, simplistic, minor variations which fuck with its counters, and it makes it a bitch to ladder with since you never really know what its running, Their is no "Bo3" on the ladder, no "side Deck" you bust out to teak your team mid-battle, if Deoxys-D has the right item / moveset / EV spread to bypass your counter then 9 time outta 10 it gives the HO team a massive advantage, which usually leads to a win.

But this is not true at all. 1 hazard will do shit, or at least nothing spectacular.

Did you seriously just underrate SR / imply its "shit"???

| 39 | Deoxys-Defense | 6.27287% | 54854 | 5.771% | 50248 | 6.559% |

Yea because those current usage stats are SO excellent at telling us whats good or not. Keldeo and Deoxys-D were used by the top tourney battlers and both still sat low on the usage stats due to the general playerbase not using them (no idea why). Go look at the 1337 (or whatever the high ranking stats are) usage stats to get a better look at the usage of Deoxys-D please. (IIRC I think Lavos Spawn posted them)

Lastly claiming something has low usage so we shouldn't ban it is one of the most useless arguments ever. We have a precedent, as we banned Wobbuffet in Gen 4 despite it having "low usage" it was deemed broken so we banned it. Deoxys-D allegedly being low in usage is no different.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

K. What do you do with tentacruel? and starmie? You cant handle EVERYTHING. Thats what im getting to. This is not a good argument. If Deoxys-D could handle everything then i would be pro-ban. But it cant so its just a good mon. Nothing more, nothing less. Also for the posts talkng about the awesomeness of rocks+1 layer of spikes. Please stop saying it is easy to lay hazards with Deoxys-D. ITS NOT. Its frustrating reading posts like ''deoxys-d can guarantee hazards up''. Just stop saying it. I've been used extensively and its retardly hard get anything more than rocks up. CBTar is quite common, espeon is annoying as fuck, theres prankster sableye and tornadus-i, a lot of stuff can surprise you (specstoed instead of bulkytoed), if your gengar goes down (easy to accomplish) and the oponent spins your hazards youre completely screwed. This happened a lot to me so just stop saying its easy cause its not.

I'm sorry, but "It can't handle everything" is not a good argument. Excadrill couldn't handle everything. Blaziken couldn't handle everything. Look where they are now. The number of checks and counters a Pokemon has has absolutely nothing to do with how broken/not broken it is. Hydreigon has no counters, and it's not broken. Excadrill had quite a few counters, and it was eventually deemed broken by a supermajority of suspect test voters in Round 5.