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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Jun 14, 2013.

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  1. superstar

    superstar

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    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 250-294 (77.16 - 90.74%)

    That extra little bit of damage Psychic gives is not worth losing the essential coverage Focus Blast provides against Rotom-W (Psychic fails to 2HKO even after rocks), Ferrothorn (it can tank an Earth Power and KO with Gyro Ball), Hydregion, Blissey, and SKARMORY.

    Having max speed isn't for after you boost, it's used to tie Thunderus-T, and beat Jirachi and Salamence.

    While your set is certainly good for certain teams (such as those that have trouble with Gengar or Gyarados), I think it's far from optimal.
  2. DC.

    DC. Eu estou aqui

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    Are you even trying to be taken seriously?
  3. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    [​IMG]
  4. VN.

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    Fblast is probably most important because of Skarmory. Skarmory won't come in on you and try to get free spikes if Lando has Fblast, which helps out the other members of the offensive team infinitely, especially Tyranitar as part of the TTar/Landorus core. Landorus without Focus Blast is just giving another check to Landorus on defensive teams, one that doesn't mind a U-Turn, which is really bad since Landorus thrives on putting a ton of pressure on defensive teams and having them struggle to even force him out.
  5. Aldaron

    Aldaron wu tang clan ain't nothin to fuck wit
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    I'm undeleting dc.'s and lavos spawn's posts because yes, porii sames' post was that dumb.
  6. Hydro Pimp

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    Got the reqs, undecided as of now. Considering that the team I used has no Landorus counter, and only situational checks, I think it says something about Landorus that I was still able to do well with it (True, a lot of the opponents were pretty bad, but the quality of the ladder before the reset was higher and the team was on the ladder then too).

    I guess to get a better picture of whether or not Landorus is ban-worthy, I'll try out the Lando-Keldeo-TTar core everyone's talking about. I've never had much trouble facing it, but seeing the core from both sides is probably the best way to make a decision.

    As far as everyone talking about U-turn goes though, Landorus with U-Turn is only really better against stall teams. Sure, it just U-Turned and your Celebi went down, but now your Keldeo, Starmie, Terrakion and whatever scarfer now outspeed it all the time and don't have to worry about Rock Polish, which makes it way easier to check. If I see a Landorus use U-Turn, I breathe a sigh of relief, since I know my Keldeo will always be there to revenge kill it.
  7. Luckstard.

    Luckstard.

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    I got reqs on OU current. And I've seen some Lando, no problem with it.

    If U-Turn : Some outspeed in my teams.
    If RP : I always succeed to keep an offensive pressure to can RK it easy.

    I've seen some Ttar + Keldy + Lando core. No problem with it again.

    I've used U-Turn Lando for this ladder and I was surprising to see it is powerful but it isn't broken at all. In the past I've used RP and it's not easy to come and to set up RP, and when you set up it, you are still weak to priority.

    I don't really think Lando is broken, I'm going to see what the metagame being without Lando in the second ladder.
  8. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Well, I got the everloving fuck haxed out of me tonight on the OU Current ladder so I'm probably out of the running unless I feel like starting a new alt (hint: I really don't, I'm fucking sick of BW2 OU).

    Here are my thoughts anyway: Landorus is a problem for balance and stall, which are both struggling to stay alive in the metagame anyway. Offense teams (by far the dominant OU team archetype, with all the sub-archetypes that entails) keep up significant enough pressure to keep him from setting up unless you're outplayed (in which case Landorus isn't broken) and they don't give a damn about the U-turn set anyway as he's not sweeping in that case.
  9. ShiryuExcalibur

    ShiryuExcalibur

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    As I got the reqs, I am going to say my opinion. I'm still not sure to ban him or not.

    I'm currently not seeing him as broken and uncompetitive, I see he is part of a combo that's very good and is the cookie-cutter team. But I don't know exactly and I am in doubt if Lando or Keldeo is the real problem, just that.

    Of course Lando has a lot of good things, Sheer Force+Life Orb gives him a high special offensive with no boosts, has a good coverage, he can U-turn and with his teammate can trap the check/counter, can set up rock polish for a good speed too, making him almost only Revenge Killed by priority. Also, he still is a very good physical pokemon that was used all the BW1 with StoneQuake and Sand Force. Packed this with Ground and Eletric imunities and Fighting resistance.

    It's of course ridiculously strong, but I still need some arguments to make me decide my vote.
  10. Curtains

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    I have been laddering recently and have been getting just destroyed by the RNG. I have had 3 accounts where i was very close but I get this period where I cant hit a move..(I even miss icy wind 2 times in a row).

    My opinion is that lando isnt broken. I know it is impossible to say something isnt broken because the return arguments will always have completely unfair scenarios. But my reasoning is that it can't mow down defensive teams easily. Now you might say "well it has u-turn" , but then I can say that it won't have rock polish ( RP is a great set and should be considered)...Very predictable on that end. The best way to beat lando is to just stay in on it. My observation is that the metagame is so much based on death fodder and momentum that you have to calculate more moves ahead than ever before. So if you know a lando is about to come in on a double switch you might as well stay in depending on the scenario.... If your pokemon dies then you can bring out a pokemon on your own and regain that momentum. I don't think u-turn is harmful to the metagame.... I actually agree that more things to calculate is actually makes a better skillful game. Now back to defensive teams... Defensive teams always have this killer move called protect.... Now protect is very important because it gives away your set first of all (you are either physical choiced or special no RP) and it turns the momentum to the opponent. Lando fails to nab the KO on key defensive pokemon and gets KOed in the process. The problem is that many players dont like to use defensive pokemon... They think that defensive pokemon won't be enough to stop the big threats.

    I feel that by itself lando is not broken. Now we can give lando a million teammates and say that it has this core and that core but I can guarantee you that a good opponent will have a solid response to that. It is a good pokemon that can dominate with team support but it doesn't seem like a pokemon that is damaging the game. It is a good pokemon that can bust up the 2-3 guaranteed pokemon that you need to stop rain.
  11. ShootingStarmie

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    I think you under estimate how bulky Lando-I actually is. Even if Lando-I fails to nab the KO, it will not be KOed in the process.

    4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 127-150 (39.81 - 47.02%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 97-115 (30.4 - 36.05%) -- 49.41% chance to 3HKO

    0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 182-216 (57.05 - 67.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    By the way, I'm only using these calcs because we're talking about defensive Pokemon here, and I consider these to be the best checks to Landorus-I.
  12. Curtains

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    Of course you would cherry pick attackers hace have no special attack investment and use neutral effective moves. What if those pokemon had ice beam or hp ice? Hp ice celebi isn't especially bad or anything... What if latias actually had the normal 252 spatk ev's and it used surf? I just had today a lando fail to ko an ammongas and get koed by hp ice.
  13. ShootingStarmie

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    Wait a sec, I thought we were talking about stall here, you know where Celebi NEVER runs HP ice (lol), and Latias isn't running full SpAtk.

    Spreads (for Latias)
    | Timid:252/0/0/4/0/252 23.096%
    | Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252 13.403%
    | Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 5.653%
    | Timid:252/0/4/0/0/252 5.243%
    | Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 3.483%
    | Timid:224/0/44/0/0/240 3.389%
    | Other 45.733%

    The amount of Celebi that run HP ice.
    Hidden Power Ice 6.044%

    What's the point in pointing out things that barely exist? Giga Drain and Psychic are much more common on Celebi, and the defensive spread for Latias is much more common too.
  14. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs

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    Yeah, lots of things wrong with this post.

    First of all, those aren't just a bunch of random attackers with no investment. That was a list of Pokemon that are often considered some of the best counters to Landorus in OU. I'm also not seeing where you're getting that they're only neutral effective moves when one of the moves was Jellicent's STAB Scald.

    As far as your move suggestions, HP Ice is rare on Celebi (and it still doesn't guarantee a OHKO, maxing out at ~90% damage), and Ice Beam on Jellicent is pretty uncommon (and it only OHKOs 37.5% of the time). Even with those included, you still have examples of Landorus surviving attacks from defensive Pokemon. In addition, as ShootingStarmie already mentioned, 252 SpA Latias is less common than the 4 SpA spreads often used for CM sets, so I don't know where you get that 252 SpA is "normal."

    As far as Amoonguss goes:

    28 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 220-260 (68.96 - 81.5%)

    Amoonguss can't even OHKO after Stealth Rock, so your Landorus would have had to have significant prior damage. For someone who complained about "unfair scenarios" that pro-ban people give Landorus, you didn't have any problem using that as an example.
  15. Curtains

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    Defensive pokemon does not mean stall teams. What does it matter that it is rare? If i kill your lando in an important match with hp ice celebi will stats matter then? If you haven't noticed that is how good shit comes out... people never use it and when someone does it gets popular. Plus don't always trust the ladder rankings because they can be heavily misleading. Also you say that I am pointing out things that barely exist... latias is 28 spots lower than latios on the entire ladder... so who was doing what? I know I said defensive pokemon but latios isn't too far off latias defensively as it can still take some not very effective hits and recover it off. If you haven't noticed there are many more defensive pokemon that can take on lando besides jellicent, celebi and lati@s. There are not alot that can just stupidly come in on an earth power but if you play smart you can bypass alot of its bullshit and beat it.

    You guys are contradicting yourself... If celebi is such a great counter to lando why are you blasting the best way to beat it one on one. My celebi can be scarfed to outspeed the u-turn.... "but curtains no one the fuck uses scarf"... Well we should cancel competitive pokemon for 6th gen because everything that shows up wont be good because it is not backed up by ladder stats. That example where I talked about moongas beating lando happened in a real battle situation. it was cleanly Koed after I beat it pretty easily just playing my game. After 2 SR and one u-turn it is dead after a HP ice. I know when you theorymon the suspect has to be at full health and no SR are up and its shiny but that is not how a real battle works.
  16. Agent Gibbs

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    No I'm not. If you reread my post, you'll notice that I said they are "often considered" to be some of Landorus's best counters, although whether or not they actually are has been a subject of debate. Even without that taken into account, you seem to have lost the point of this discussion. This wasn't about blasting through Landorus's counters, it was about your assertion that Landorus fails to get the KO on key defensive Pokemon and just gets KO'd in return. As far as "key" defensive Pokemon go, you don't get much more "key" than Landorus's most popular counters, and as ShootingStarmie and myself have demonstrated, Landorus is not always KO'd by these defensive Pokemon.

    Look at this argument from the opposite side. What you're pretty much implying is "Landorus isn't broken because I can beat it with some rare set that no one uses." That aside, Scarf Celebi isn't a great counter to Landorus seeing as how it lacks reliable recovery and loses at least a third of its health to even Earth Power, not to mention that HP Ice does 53% minimum.

    Funny you should mention. You seemed annoyed at people theorymonning by giving Landorus "a million teammates" (when in reality, the only teammates people really assert for Landorus are Tyranitar and possibly Keldeo), so I'll respond to this in the following way: I know when you theorymon the suspect needs to be isolated without taking into account its teammates and it's shiny, but that is not how a real battle works.
  17. Curtains

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    That means most people think its a counter. Lets cut out all the double speak tricks. You say that celebi , latias and jellicent are a subject of debate then 2 sentences later say that you don't get much more "key" than those same pokemon under debate what the fuck.

    You can't tell me what I am implying. All I did was give an example of how it could be used. If you are going to attack an arguement don't take one statement and make it look like that is the entire bases for my argument. Scarf celebi is a good counter to lando. If it doesn't use u-turn you can come in on any of its attacks and get the surprise KO.

    well to be honest if it wasn't for tyranitar we wouldn't even be suspecting this guy. Genesect was broken with or without dugtrio... Genesect's only counter was heatran flat out..... All people have been saying throughout this thread that repeatedly gets avoided is that you can't give the opposing team one pokemon and one playstyle and one scenario and call lando broken based on that.
  18. Spirit

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    Ironically, that whole thing about Scarf Hidden Power Ice Celebi is working against your argument. When you get to the point were you have to use an otherwise shitty set and a niche move on something just for the sole purpose of countering one Pokemon, that shows how blatantly dominant it is. If anything, you having to resort to such a set or a move doesn't mean that Landorus isn't broken(or this is some new way to deal with it), it means the exact opposite. Not sure if you were able to see that halfway through your debate.
  19. Curtains

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    for fucks sake have you guys ever heard of a lure pokemon. That was just one example. Im not saying scarfed celebi is the end all be all to landorus-i. But Its not a bad choice.... Objectively it is not a bad pokemon to use.... It does have a smogon certified analysis on it. Scarfed celebi does have other uses as well besides nailing lando sometimes. its just always good to have that option in your back pocket. It doesn't have to be the primary lando choice... The battle and team matchups will dictate that naturally.

    @ lavos... i didnt say it was good... it can work as a good counter to lando if your opponent slips up and goes on with u-turn. There are plenty of pokemon that blow but are usable. I for instance think xatu fucking sucks... but on some teams it fills a specific role. I know you have been playing for years but I know you know that this game is all subjective when it comes to teambuilding.... Just peep that last podcast.

    @Shurtugal: just because lavos says it sucks doesn't mean it sucks. That is just his opinion.
  20. Lavos Spawn

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    scarf celebi blows idk what youre talking about
  21. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Give me an example of a Pokemon that blows that is usable. Why would you want to use a Pokemon that blows (and surprise factor does not count as a reason)?

    EDIT: I agree with ShootinStarmie. I mean, can you show logs of Scarf Celebi working? That also seems like the most pursuit trapped shit ever invented. If you're locked into Giga on TTar you are fucked.
  22. ShootingStarmie

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    I'm pretty sure it's everyone's opinion
  23. Agent Gibbs

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    I'm sorry, do you have a list of Pokemon that make better switch-ins to Landorus? Better "key" Pokemon, perhaps?

    The reason they are debated isn't because they can't usually take on Landorus. The main reason many people have challenged their status as true counters is because of how easily they can be trapped and killed by Tyranitar, Landorus's most popular partner by a good margin. Obviously the exception to this is Celebi, who can be heavily damage by U-turn even without the need for Tyranitar, but it still takes on most special Landorus lacking U-turn.

    But I think you're still missing the point of all this. Regardless of whether or not their statuses as counters are under debate, they are still some of the best switch-ins to Landorus in OU. If you were to ask me to name some of the "key" defensive Pokemon that Landorus might have to deal with, Celebi, Latias, and Jellicent would be the first three I'd think of, and I'm sure many other players would name some or all of these as well. And again, as demonstrated, Landorus doesn't just get KO'd by these three. If you have other "key" defensive Pokemon that you think Landorus is going to have trouble with, then please name them.

    To be honest, if I saw Earth Power do between 33% and 39% to a Celebi of all things, it would be enough to warrant suspicion. Not only that, but if Stealth Rock is down, Celebi only needs to switch into Earth Power once before it is guaranteed to be OHKOd by HP Ice. The next time I bring Landorus in, I can just set up Rock Polish, and if you switch Celebi in as I do, I just KO with HP Ice the next turn.

    Also...

    ...quoting this for truth.

    How are you so sure that Landorus would have never been suspected without Tyranitar? You're still dealing with a very powerful special attacker with few counters (some of which can be dealt with by the appropriate coverage move), a decent speed stat, Rock Polish to outspeed all Scarf users, great coverage, U-turn, and good typing with respectable bulk. That aside, even if the effectiveness of Tyranitar's support is the breaking factor for Landorus, the fact is that it still exists and it's still Landorus's most popular partner by far.

    Yeah, but generally when I use a lure, it's to lure in a specific check to a teammate and hopefully remove the check, allowing the teammate to sweep. What you are suggesting is using a lure in an attempt to keep one specific Pokemon in check. In fact, I wouldn't really call it a lure in the same sense as something like Expert Belt Keldeo since it isn't designed to actually lure Landorus in and remove it like other lures do. Other than that, though, Scarf Celebi is a very mediocre set that honestly doesn't much that another Scarf user can't do besides switch into Landorus maybe once.
  24. Curtains

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    depends on the situation... most pokemon don't have pokemon you can just switch in on. that is why they are OU. Scizor can switch into HP ice for instance. Gengar can switch in to EP and FB. Any flying or levitating pokemon can switch into EP. All rotom formes can come in basically for free.... It just depends. If I were to say anything you would come back with a scenario where you just made an amazing move or you have such and such counter. Landorus has plenty of switch ins. unless your opponent has u-turn which is a plus for me because now he loses 10% and another 12% on the switch in so he probably won't do that again.

    I just bring it in on the revenge...Having one of your pokemon just get killed is one of the most useful momentum gainers in the game. since HP ice choice scarf is so shit you would never expect it... Dead landorus-i...He gone

    you and him don't get it

    Because the biggest arguement is that landorus has tyranitar to systematically remove it's counters... (although celebi doesnt work anymore because of baton pass). Do you think tornadus would have been uber without rain? Fuck no. It would have been in FU tier without rain.

    who cares what you do thats not the only way to do a lure.

    @Shurtugal: im not going to think for you... just use your imagination... everything from abomasnow, sableye to fucking ninjask blows but can still be used. im not about to state everyone.
  25. PDC

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    Unlike Tornadus-T, Landorus-I functions perfectly well in basically any weather. Rain, Sun, Sand, Hail, it still gets the job done no matter what. Not to mention momentum it gains, and how it can basically destroy sun teams completely.
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