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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Enter Sandman

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Sep 12, 2012.

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  1. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    the reason to let chomp back into OU is simple: if a pokemon has no reason to be banned, why keep it banned? shouldn't we want to keep banlists as short as possible? we shouldn't be looking at a pokemon and saying "unless anybody has any reasons against, we're gonna ban this shit". otherwise shit like magcargo would be all that's left in OU. we should instead be asking "if you want this shit banned, you better step up for it". nothing deserves to be uber, and nothing deserves to be OU either, but the impetus should always be towards letting pokemon down and then deciding if they need to go back up. ESPECIALLY in the case of a mon like garchomp that was banned quite a few metagames ago.

    and again, sand veil is not being considered on the ban table because we want garchomp back. it's because sand veil is haxy and uncompetitive. garchomp is being dropped as a consequence of sand veil being banned, because one of the primary reasons for it to be banned was sand veil in past rounds. the previous ladder already tested chomp without veil, so the question is now whether or not veil is okay... a question to which there are many answers, but none of them have to do with garchomp directly.

    seriously can we just leave something along those lines in the OP? because EVERYONE seems to think "we just want chomp back omg it's our precious baby let's ban everything so that chomp is legal again because it's our precioussssssssss"
  2. superbadd

    superbadd

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    The hax is absurd. Before SV, garchomp was pretty normal, after it's probably the biggest threat when looking at a sand team. I don't know how one ability can just push something so far, but it did for garchomp.
  3. Stone RG

    Stone RG Megas are broke

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    Oh my lord, holy shit ive been laddering for 2 hours today and got the time for a post.

    Im so fucking mad because i didnt know we were actually testing Bright Powder, are you serious, man that thing turns along with SV your Ice Beam to less accurate than Focus Miss (which was nicknamed that way for a reason). That's my first argument, since whoever thought about this was probably under drug-induced effects.

    Second, Rough Skin Garchomp looks like Flygon inj comparison to Veil Chomp, it's the biggest and most ridicoulus threat ever yet to face, and now i really understand why people wanted it banned, i already have had a match where my opponent's Alakazam missed HP Ice twice in a row, to then miss with his Gliscor's Acrobatics against my sub, not that it really mattered, even without the sub Chomp still demolishes everything.

    Skarm is being runned by pretty much 3/4 of the ladder, since it is the only hard counter someone can find to chomp, since Bronzong doesn't have recovery.
  4. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Call me nuts, but I am ok with viel chomp forcing everyone to run more balanced teams to deal with it, its kinda like the spring 2010 metagame is back, but without Excadrill and Deoxys-D Deoxys-S and Thundurus-T Thundurus.
  5. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    What I don't like is that because the tier is an OU suspect test tier.. nearly everyone who is in the tier is there to try garchomp. Consequently you would expect almost every team (or at least the majority) to be some variation of a sand team, which is exactly what happened.

    And now because Garchomp almost always is on home territory, people are noticing the 20% hax more.. I seriously think it's more than manageable at the moment, but everyone that absolutely disagrees with it needs to consider the almost permanent sand in this tier at the moment.

    Let's face it, the tier hardly encourages rain teams to be designed (etc..) since everybody wants to try 'chomp.
  6. False Sense

    False Sense

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    Well, having laddered a bit now, I'd have to say that Sand Veil has lived up to it's notorious reputation. I've had a few games that were completely changed around because of a Sand Veil hax. While Rough Skin Garchomp was tested, it could be contained easily. This is no longer the case, as there is almost no possible way to 100% prepare for it. Not to mention that every person I fought on the server used Sand + SubSD Chomp.

    I feel like I can safely say the Sand Veil is the broken part of Garchomp. Hopefully I can ladder up to get voting rights...
  7. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    I was informed by one of my friends that I'm apparently the current #1 on the suspect ladder. I didn't know, because I wasn't checking, but yeah, I'd like to point out that I did it with a weatherless team...I don't know what this proves, I don't think I'd be wrong in saying that I'm an above average battler but I also thinks it shows that weather isn't necessarily critical to success in BW2 OU. That's just my two cents...take it as you wish.
  8. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    who are these people and why are they so high on the ladder, its like suspect tests generate random new people that are savants or geniuses at pokemon, seriously I am jealous

    I think Garchomp has the potential to absorb most of the useage of other dragons, Haxorus is slower which hurts it a lot, and Salamence and Dragonite suffer from a critical stealth rock weakness. Garchomp also has 2 reliable stabs, something other dragons can't boast. I'm not saying Garchomp totally outclasses him, but Garchomp has a lot of significant advantages that will make it much more popular than the dragons we are use to individually.
  9. yee

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    I'm gonna say now assuming I stay high enough to vote that I will almost definitely vote to ban Sand Veil Garchomp but not Rough Skin. Without Skarmory or Quagsire on your team (and even with assuming Mag / Goth sometimes) Sub SD Chomp with Sand Veil is getting around all of it's normal checks while "normal" Rough Skin Chomp can be played around like any other pokemon. Anyone with experience knows how Sub SD Chomp with it's awesome bulk and all around stats / STABs can snowball if it gets one crucial miss, and-

    .8^5th gives 32.8% of you breaking all of it's subs and being able to revenge kill it as normal, which means it basically will snowball and get wins when it takes out the important mon you needed later trying to revenge kill.

    Still insisting Garchomp shouldn't be our only priority for BW in case anyone thinks I've gone soft and accepted this as a passable metagame.
  10. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    I think I'm amongst the majority when I say I'd love to see Garchomp OU with Sand Veil banned.

    Leftovers + Substitute presents Garchomp with so many rooms for escaping the clutches of death, instantly taking momentum away from the player who deserves it most. By it, I also mean the match as well as other in-game factors which determine a winner and loser.

    So, you've missed a 100% accuracy move and reward Garchomp a free turn to set up Substitute, but the score favors you and you just need to break the barrier for a second opportunity to hit Garchomp. What happens? You break the Sub, typically lose a Pokemon in the midst of things, and then miss again because the opponent spends so much of his time abusing the chance of luck that it becomes a likely possibility you will then lose due to untimely, critical misses.

    It's uncompetitive by nature, and Rough Skin definitely proved Garchomp was managable and certainly OU material. However, its inhuman characteristics of previous experience come into play all too often because it is naturally one of the "go to" Pokemon in the tier; just now, it's all the more appealing if you're on the losing end of a game and resort to a cheap getaway tactic such as evasion.
  11. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    I'm agreeing with most of you, Garchomp itself is perfectly fine, Sand Veil on the other hand is uncompetitive, and very irritating. I mean, other forms of "hax" (think about Specially Defensive Jirachi with its paraflinch combination) are counterable in some way (like, for Jirachi, running Heatran or some resist, or just a Lum Berry user to shrug off status). Sand Veil is different since no matter how much you prepare for it, you can be screwed by the RNG anyway, and this affects the game in a completely undesirable way.

    I probably won't have the rating to vote on this, but a Garchomp back in OU and some sort of ban of Sand Veil is probably the way to go, and the better choice for our metagame.
  12. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    I decided to not use Garchomp and just use my normal OU team, which has a 1852 ACRE in standard OU so it's by no means a poorly made team.

    I have a Max/Max Def Mew with Ice Beam and Roar, a Latios, a Max/Max Def Ferrothorn, a Sandslash, a Dragon Tail Tyranitar, and I even carry Whirlwind on my Genesect/Heatran-counter Hariyama meaning Garchomp can't even set up on him. I should mutilate Garchomp and I certainly proved it on the Rough Skin Suspect Ladder having no trouble at all with him. Garchomp had a snowball's chance in hell of sweeping my team.

    Now enter Sand Veil; massive losing streaks. I'm talking 4 or 5 games dry at times and it is almost always on Sand Veil. I'm sure Bright Powder has "helped out" Garchomp a few times but the point remains: a team that seems almost tailor-made to counter Garchomp getting swept by it. And why? Dragon Tail becomes entirely unreliable and makes my Tyranitar set-up fodder. Sometimes my Mew's Roar or Ice Beam misses and Garchomp continues Swords Dancing up. And Mew, being the threat that it is, takes only 60% or so from +2 EQ but a Roar missing can basically end the game due to Chomp still being behind a Sub. I've of course thought of sending out Latios and force it to Outrage so Ferro can come in, but even then Power Whip goes from a minor chance to a massive chance of missing due to Sand Veil and even Leech Seed isn't reliable anymore.

    Long story short, if even someone that's as armed for fighting Chomp as anyone realistically should is still having problems with Garchomp, not even it's teammates just that one specific Pokemon, there's something horribly wrong. The most I could afford to add to my team to combat Chomp is a Toxic Spiker somewhere to at least get damage on him.

    Personally I would place Sand Veil Chomp in the same category as Moody as, while you're not fishing for boosts, you're fishing for misses with a Pokemon already so much more threatening than a Bibarel or Octillery could ever dream of being. And the thing that Sand Veil has over Moody is that the Evasion boost is a guarantee. You can take out a Birbarel should it not get the Evasion boost early and especially if Sandstorm is eating it's Lefties. We don't have that luxury against Garchomp; this is especially true with Garchomp being a late-game sweeper and if your counters are in any way significantly worn down, a late-game miss is absolutely game deciding.

    Of course other weathers have it easier than people like me that just like to use Sand for passive damage but if just changing the weather was a valid argument, we wouldn't have done anything with Swift Swim. I might be a little "out there" with putting Sand Veil in the same league as Moody but I'm glad I'm not in the minority about the entire Sand Veil topic. I want it gone but at this point, I'm not even sure if a vote would be worth the hassle of laddering against this thing.
  13. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    I can only agree with the above posters Rough Skin Chomp is perfectly fine to handle, but with Sand Veil it's getting ridiculous. I see absolutly no reason to keep Sand Veil in the meta game it's only creating another luck factor nobody wants (except for some NU players that don't want Cacturne getting nerfed). Sand Veil Gliscor was already annoying and something i hated to face everytime i didn't ran a Rain team, but if you give something like Garchomp a 20% chance for invincibility against virtually anything as long as Sand is up there is a good chance that everytime that chance activates the opposing player faces a completly undeserved disadvantage that can likely cost you the game. Comparing it with Moody might be a little too much however i don't see a reason why it shouldn't be banned under evasion clause together with Snow Cloak (wich would just be consistent and i don't see many relevant pokemon that would suffer from it now that Mamoswine got Thick Fat).
    I am usually someone who wants to keep the ruleset simple, but right now i would say either Garchomp leaves or Sand Veil gets banned, because right now i have no more desire to play on the suspect ladder as i would propably smoke one pack every 3 hours in order to keep calm ^^
  14. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    If Sand Veil is what's breaking Garchomp, then let's just keep Garchomp banned and bring back Brightpowder and Lax Incense.

    We are under no obligation to return Garchomp to the OU tier in any way, shape, or form, and if Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil, then why not just keep Garchomp in the Uber tier where it belongs? Sand Veil Garchomp and Rough Skin Garchomp are not two different Pokemon. They are not different "formes" of the same Pokemon. They are one Pokemon, and we should not consider RS Chomp and SV Chomp to be two separate Pokemon that are up for a simultaneous Suspect Test.

    It is beyond obvious that Sand Veil is not broken. Gliscor is fine in OU with Sand Veil. Sandslash gets Sand Veil as well, yet nobody clamors for its ban. Gabite, Cacturne, and Dugtrio all get Sand Veil, but we overlook that and claim Sand Veil is broken because there happens to be a 600 BST pseudo-legendary with fantastic stats, typing, movepool, and troll Speed tier that uses Sand Veil to become a teensy bit better. We all know Rough Skin Garchomp is not broken in OU. It's a good Pokemon, but it's obviously not broken. Sand Veil Garchomp may be broken, but if we do deem Garchomp to be broken, then it's pretty obvious that:

    Sand Veil is breaking Garchomp, not the other way around.

    Speed Boost broke Blaziken. We banned Blaziken. Drizzle broke Thundurus. We banned Thundurus. Sand Veil might break Garchomp, and we banned...Brightpowder? And now we're trying to ban Sand Veil because of it? We should show a little consistency in our banning procedure, and just accept that if Sand Veil Garchomp is deemed Uber, it's because Garchomp just wasn't meant to be in OU.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now, on to whether I think Chomp is broken or not.

    I (barely) voted Do Not Ban on Garchomp last time it was on the chopping block, but this time I'm not so sure whether it deserves another shot in OU. I'm leaning towards wanting Garchomp back in its entirety, as this metagame is a lot less kind to Garchomp than the Spring 2010 metagame was. This metagame has three great ways of stopping the Sandstorm called Drizzle, Drought, and Snow Warning, all three of which are viable weathers. Tyranitar, the poster child of Sandstorm, is much worse in this metagame than he was in the previous Chomp metagame because of Rain's resurgence, Sun's modest improvements, and Hail's newfound niche in OU. Hippowdon's twice the Pokemon it was in 2010, but it's probably still the fourth-best weather setter next to Tyranitar, Politoed, and Ninetales (only because Sun is the better weather).

    It's a lot harder to keep Sand up in this metagame, and winning the weather war is far from achieving a win condition. Garchomp has Skarmory as a prime counter, but now also has to contend with Genesect as the best revenge killer in the game, Thundurus-T's HP Ices, and the fact that Garchomp gets blown off the map by a well-made Rain team. Pokemon like Specs/Scarf Politoed, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo just blast right through Garchomp like bullets through paper since 102 Base Speed isn't what it used to be. 102 is a nice troll tier for Thundurus-T, but it's not nearly as nice when that Pokemon happens to be immune to one of your STABs, commonly runs Agility, and pretty much always runs Hidden Power Ice to crush Garchomp in a single blow.

    108 is the new 100, and Garchomp's been caught in the crossfire. Keldeo and Tornadus-T are the faces of Rain, and Rain teams just don't care that much about Garchomp.

    Sand Veil is a great ability on Garchomp, yes, and Garchomp is a menace under the Sand thanks to Sand Veil, but Garchomp just isn't what it used to be. I'm not going to definitively say that it should come back to OU, but I'm leaning towards Do Not Ban. I'll test it some more.
  15. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    My conclusion, after testing some SubSD Chomp on the suspect ladder, is that Sand Veil breaks Garchomp. I can switch in on any Pokemon that relies on a less than 100% accuracy move to hit Chomp (think Rotom-W), Sub until they miss, SD, keep Subbing until they miss again, then take out at least 2 Pokemon at +2. It's too easy. Unless the opponent has a Bronzong, Skarmory, or Gliscor (all 3 of which lose to my Specs Gothitelle), then they're forced to lose a 'mon or two to the hax power of Sand Veil. Don't give me the old "other weather beats Chomp" argument, because Politoed doesn't enjoy eating a +2 attack, and Ninetales flat out dies to EQ. Abomasnow can kind of switch in, but it's forced to flee in fear of my HP Fire Goth. I'll just predict the rise in Cloyster usage now, I guess, because that's the only offensive thing that can scare Chomp out behind a Sub. It can actually set up a SS and sweep, assuming it doesn't *ahem* miss Icicle Spear. That's the worst part about Garchomp in Sand, you don't even have an assured revenge kill because there's always that 20% chance that your Genesect's Ice Beam misses and suddenly you've lost the entire game due to that roll of the dice.

    When the suspect voting rolls around, I will vote for a Ban on this thing, no question about it.
  16. Skore

    Skore

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    Every single Keldeo I have run into on the ladder has been Scarfed. Is this a new trend or brought out solely for Garchomp's benefit?
  17. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
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    DetroitLolcat, we're not "playing favorites" with Garchomp as you're saying. Sand Veil is what's really at fault here, and Garchomp happens to be the most common abuser of it, but he's certainly not the only one. If we do what you suggest and ban Chomp but keep Sand Veil, we'll have a repeat of what happened in BW1 -- Sand Veil Acrobatics Gliscor will take its place as a Sand Veil abuserand continue to rob people of games they should've won. Don't give me any "Gliscor isn't as threatening as Garchomp with SV" bullshit because that's absolutely un-true and it'd show that you're missing the whole point.

    Sand Veil as a whole is what needs to go, not Garchomp.
  18. Jukain

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    I've come to the point where I am in support of banning Sand Veil. Now for clarification, I have never even ONCE been haxed out of a game by it, it's just me putting two and two together. I don't believe that a metagame should be totally based around skill, because luck is a very important factor in Pokemon. However, I'm just going absolutely crazy with Sand Veil available. With Sand Veil on Chomp, you literally have to have a plan and a backup plan JUST IN CASE YOU MISS. That's completely ridiculous. If I've got a check to Garchomp, such as Choice Scarf Haxorus, it should be able to work, not work 80% of the time. There's a fine line between luck and being uncompetitive, and I think that Garchomp has crossed it.
  19. Zowayix

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    And Moody broke Bidoof. We banned Moody, not Bidoof.
    The difference here is that Sand Veil, like Moody, is bad for the game. It may or may not be broken (as in too powerful), but it is uncompetitive. There is a distinction between something that is broken (Kyogre allowed in OU) and something that is uncompetitive (lol Double Team Luvdisc).
  20. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]

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    I'm all in support for banning Sand Veil. Sand Veil Acrobat Gliscor was a major pain for me in BW1, and I'd love to use Garchomp in standard BW2. I don't really understand what is wrong with banning Sand Veil-it is a very haxxy ability, and Garchomp is good for the metagame in that it counters Volt-Turn. It's certainly not over-powered in BW2-only with Sand Veil does it become broken. Sand Veil needs to go, especially when it hurts nothing really. Saying that just Sand Veil+Sand is also a bit silly really-since it means that all sand teams need to use Skarmory so they don't lose against SubSD Chomp. Kingdra has a very popular counter in Ferrothorn-and frankly a rain team that is destroyed by Kingdra isn't very good. Sand Veil as a whole is too broken-it's an ability that causes you to miss. What's fair about that?
  21. Lord of Bays

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    Strictly speaking, Mold Breaker will cancel Sand Veil, which leaves Dual Chop at a 90% chance to hit and Dragon Claw/Outrage at 100%, but if he's behind a sub then there's still that 10%. And that backup plan? That might also hock it because Sand Veil.

    Anyway, I'm also for banning Sand Veil and freeing Garchomp. He adds diversity to the metagame. How is that bad?
  22. Stone RG

    Stone RG Megas are broke

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    Didn't we ban Moody? If Sand Veil is so uncompetitive, so uncontrollable and so anti-skill that so many people want it banned, we should already end this up guys, even though we have only had 3 days with the Suspect Ladder, and more than a year of metagame changes that Chomp has to get used to, we already saw what SV can do, as everyone is saying, it takes away a game you have in your hands to the trash, and EVERY single pokemon that has a below-100 accuracy move becomes set-up fodder, i'm trying to ladder as much as to be able to vote it banned , but SV just turns this to a ridicoulus quest.

    I just wanted to ask when is the Suspect ending, and how many points we need to achieve, tho guys i think we have once more an unanimous ban in front of us.
  23. Zacchaeus

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    Being uncompetitive doesn't necessitate a ban. Acupressure and Quick Claw are about as uncompetitive as it gets, but under normal circumstances they simply aren't effective enough to make a noticeable impact on the flow of battle. If you used AncientPower Omastar, more often than not it would prove to be a slightly weaker HP Rock Omastar. Although, in a few circumstances, it would get a fantastic boost, and even less times than that it would get a nearly game-winning boost with +2 or +3 to all stats. Even though AncientPower could win you a game, it doesn't win enough games to be thought of as broken, so it won't be banned. A label of competitive or uncompetitive is only the first step in making the decision of whether or not something should be banned
  24. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Moody can also fish for evaision boosts by using protect; on sand veil that doesn't work.
  25. PDC

    PDC i zimbra
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    Here is the the deal with Garchomp. We previously tested out a version of Rough Skin Garchomp on the Suspect Ladder, who proved to not be broken. Rough Skin Garchomp not only lacked the hax factor it previously had with the omnipresent Sand Veil ability, but it also had a healthy impact in the metagame for the short time the ladder was up. Garchomp had the qualities that no other Pokemon could really fill in the metagame. Garchomp could be used as a bulky SR user who still packed an admirable punch, while supporting the team early game. Garchomp also performed as a pretty decent VoltTurn check, being able to take nothing from Volt Switch, while hurting Scizor with Rough Skin. Garchomp can also be a much more offensive role through Yache Dancer, or SubSalac, both strong sets that are formidable and powerful in the metagame.

    However, I think that it has come to our attention that Sand Veil Garchomp is broken, quite obviously. We need to do something about Sand Veil or Garchomp, and we need to come to a full decision. Our basic problem can be broken down into 3 separate options that all need to be addressed.


    1. Keep Garchomp Banned as a whole, do not introduce back into Overused.

    2. Comeplex Ban with Garchomp + Sand Veil. OR Complex Ban with SandStream + Sand Veil.

    3. Ban Sand Veil as a whole ability, meaning Sand Veil will be banned on Gliscor, Cacture, and Gabite along with other users.



    Now, as of the wide opinion it seems Garchomp is wanted back in the overused metagame, but just without Sand Veil that is. So basically if we are going to unban Garchomp, we then need to address the problem of the controversial ability Sand Veil. Now if we unban Garchomp we are limited to the final two options. We can decide to do a Complex Ban, but those are widely disliked among the community, despite the event that we have done it before. We could also do the option of a mock Aldaron's proposal, but i'm not sure that we should go down that road again, especially with something different like Sand Veil. If we do this then we can keep Sand Veil on other stuff like Gliscor and Cacturne, which are obviously not broken. However, personally I do not like this option. I dislike it because first of all we have to deal with another Complex Ban, and that is something that, as stated previously, is a disliked option.

    But the main point is that we have to realize Garchomp is not broken without Sand Veil. Without Sand Veil one of Garchomps best sets, SubSD, becomes useless as it relied on miss support through Sand Veil. Sand Veil is obviously the problem here. Sand Veil is the problem, but it is not just a problem on Garchomp anymore. Sand Veil robs people of games through the luck factor of evasion, which is completely unfair. Sand Veil should be counted under Evasion Clause as it does effect your evasion. We are here to minimize the luck factor in Pokemon, and banning Sand Veil keeps it more clean a game. It will always be a problem no matter if we do ban Garchomp and keep Sand Veil, as BKC stated AcroScor will just take it's place as a similar abuser.

    Also, weather does not beat Garchomp in any way shape or form. It may nullify the effect of the Sand Veil ability, but it does not "beat" or "counter" Garchomp. No weather starter can really come in on Garchomp aside from Physicall Defensive Politoed ( Scarf Can Revenge, but it can only come in on a Swords Dance unless it wants to get hurt badly from Earthquake or even a Dragon Claw in some circumstances ) and maybe Abomasnow, but even then Abomasnow doesn't like any damage from a stray Dragon Claw either, especially if Stealth Rock does happen to be up. Ninetails can't switch in on anything Garchomp has, and in fact just gives Garchomp some more Substitutes or Swords Dances. Politoed can't really provide a solid check either, especially frailer Choice Specs versions. Even defensive versions don't like taking any move from Garchomp.

    If we want to unban Garchomp, we have to ban Sand Veil first. Essentially when you face Garchomp, you stop playing the game of Pokemon and start playing the game of chance. You can easily lose the game due to a Sand Veil miss, which is what breaks Garchomp. If Sand Veil gets eliminated, we could put this factor aside and realize Garchomp is a good enough option for this metagame and is not broken with Rough Skin. As much as I do dislike Garchomp, I feel that it is not broken without the hax factor and should be put back into our OU metagame. Once again, Sand Veil gives the game more luck based factors, costs people games due to some absurd miss, and just makes the game in some parts a game of luck and chance. You shouldn't be relying on luck to win, which is the issue with Sand Veil Garchomp's premier set, SubSD.

    But again, this post is going on the premise we ARE unbanning Garchomp, which we may not 100% do, but by the looks of it we are on our way to re-introducing Rough Skin Garchomp back into OU with open arms. It is true the metagame isn't as kind to Garchomp as it once was, but it still has amazing presence, and even without it's notorious Sand Veil ability, it will still be a top tier threat, just with some different set's than it originally ran when Sand Veil was out. So in conclusion :

    - Ban Sand Veil as a whole and allow Garchomp to come back with Rough Skin
    - Reduce the luck and hax factor as a whole
    - Weather does not beat Sand Veil Chomp, only reduce it's effectiveness
    - Try to avoid a complex ban

    So, what are we going to be doing? When the voter thread comes around, are we going to bring up Sand Veil or Garchomp for suspect?
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