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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Oct 17, 2012.
Good job taking what I said out of context.
Definitely not the only one, I love Breloom! I've used all his sets; Low Sweep LO, SD Fighting Gem, Sub SD, and even the classic Sub Punch which is actually something I've been using on my current team to test its effectiveness in the current meta game, and surprisingly it does really well! Once a Substitute is up, something will always be put to sleep, and Focus Punch is dangerous even resisted. It can be a solid 2HKO to Max HP/Def Skarmory after Stealth Rocks, which is pretty impressive with Skarmory's insane bulk. Although it may not have the power to revenge kill, it acts as an extremely effectively wall breaker that if given the right team support, can wreck havoc on teams. Besides, I find Scizor a better Pokemon to take out Kyurem-B anyway, and isn't in trouble if it somehow doesn't OHKO it, unlike Breloom who has pathetic bulk and defensive typing. Still, Breloom is definitely one of the top threats in the OU meta game right now, and is a pretty good check to Kyurem-B.
made reqs yesterday as 4 kings
kyurem-b will usually kill something and then gets revenged, it doesn't really change the overall meta except make dragmag more usable. If anything it shows just how horrible ice typing is. this suspect test makes me hate rain and I cant wait till we test it
kyurem-b isnt broken in this meta, but it should be retested down the road if we ban some other suspects that hold it back.
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spd
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon
Has anyone else had success with this set? I find CM Wish Jirachi to be a highly dangerous threat in Suspect, especially considering how most of its counters/checks are very uncommon in the Kyube metagame. Aside from obviously being a great answer to Kyurem-B itself, this Jirachi is extremely bulky and can easily sweep unprepared teams. Wish also allows it to be more of a team player than SubCM Jirachi.
After playing about 70 matches and reaching reqs on the suspect ladder; I really haven't been enjoying the current metagame at all. It seems to have become rather stale and I often see the same teams over and over again. I believe that Kyurem-B has somewhat constricted the diversity of the metagame. However, although I think a metagame with no Kyurem-B would be a more enjoyable one, Kyurem-B is not broken in the current metagame, and banning something that isn't broken just because I don't like it would be rather foolish. I've tried to approach this with an objective state of mind, and I'm hoping that if Kyurem-B is released into OU and it's no longer the centre of attention; people will start straying away from the bog standard teams and bring some creativity into the metagame.
Honestly, I can't see him getting much usage in the future. With things like Scizor, Breloom, and Terrakion being on almost every team Kyurem-B's true power only seems to be unleashed when behind a Sub. Yes he's one heck of a powerhouse, but I don't see why people would rather use him over Dragonite who hits hard and has a great move pool. I wouldn't worry about him too much, as I hardly ever see him in Suspect. He'll see most of his usage in the first week or so, and then he'll die down if he's unbanned (which most likely he will).
I got requirements. I really didnt know how to upload the photo here, so I posted the link instead. I was using the alt TestKyurem. I will edit this later to post my thoughts.
EDIT: Guys stop blaming Kyurem-B. I asked people on the ladder,"Why do you copy teams?" Their answer,"I want to get requirements as soon as possible."
This isn't my theory. It's their answer.
I don't dislike Kyurem-B, I don't think it's broken in the current metagame at all, but the effect it has on the metagame is what I dislike. Even though Kyurem-B wasn't seen too often at all after the first few days, I still saw the same teams over and over again. Yes, I agree Kyurem-B will go down in usage even more if it's released into OU, but the last time it went down in usage it didn't change anything, I'm just hoping it will change this time and more people will try and bring some creativity into the metagame :)
EDIT: you have a good point Pocket, admittedly I was a little harsh on Kyurem-B. But, the metagame with chomp was much more diverse and I still believe Kyurem-B is at least somewhat responsible.
Great Mighty Doom >:| You can't blame the lack of creativity in the ladder on Kyu-B - it's the inherent culture of players to take the lazy route and spam teams that are known to be effective in the standard meta. Kyurem-B's presence has nothing to do with this at all. If anything Kyurem-B has made the life of Rain Offense slightly more difficult, yet it still hasn't stopped people from spamming bog standard Rain teams. Kyu-B has very little effect on the metagame, from what I've seen.
I have another dumb theory on why we're seeing less diversity, I think a reason the metagame was more diverse in the last suspect test was because we allowed Garchomp with Sand Veil on it. IMO it gave Sand teams a reason to exist other than removing Sun/Rain. Could that be a factor?
Blaming Kyurem-B for "ruining" this meta when he's not even all that active is just silly to me.
Ok, I've played matches in standard ou between suspect tests, the meta was much more diverse, and Valentine's rain team as well as DragMag was nowhere near as common. The only variable that has changed between the gap inbetween suspects and this suspect test is Kyurem-B, naturally, one would assume Kyurem-B is at least a bit to blame. Adding in another powerhouse is obviously going to decrease the viability of more defensively inclined teams, so seeing these super generic teams was of no suprise to me. I also see Kyurem-B about 1 in every 3 games, which is much more common than it seems to be for most people. I am starting to doubt my original statement on Kyurem-B, but I really don't care whether I'm right or not in saying Kyurem-B is a bit responsible for the less diverse metagame. I just hope than if it is released into OU; some creative minds will prove me wrong.
Doom and I share very similar opinions about this metagame, so I'll try to help explain (although doom has done a pretty great job....). If you look at the last suspect metagame, the meta was extremely diverse. While teams were copied, there was still a large amount of diversity and different team types. This metagame is almost the exact opposite. Teams are being copied, like always, but I feel it is in part because these are the only viable playstyles at the moment. Really the only attributable difference between the two metagames is Kyurem-B. That is why many people claim that he has a negative influence on the metagame, even if he isn't seen as much. I also remember PK Gaming saying that players had just "smartened up" for this metagame, but that's just not true. Everyone was trying hard last suspect period and doing their best, its also not like BW2 was new or anything and people were just testing random stuff. Players aren't gonna get infinitely smarter in 2 weeks. Doom and I are both just looking for some people to prove us wrong and show that this metagame is in fact creative, and that more than like 5 teams are viable in it.
P.S: I know this is pretty much a restatement of my reqs post/dooms posts but there really isn't any other way to say this, and I do feel like it needs the clarification/restatement.
I agree with this. It is not Kyurem-B, the reason about this metagame is the people. In my opinion, It is because the changes have been a lot in little time. People know that in some weeks the metagame will change and they choose the easy walk. "Why I do a new team which be effective only 2 weeks? I take this and I'm ready."
At the begining, I though that other styles were impossible; but then I saw others teams near of requirements (+1900 glicko2): rain stall, sand balanced, weatherless stall and I did "reqs" with a sunny balanced. So yes, others styles are possible, but they require effort.
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Got no time, i guess ill edit it later to talk bout Kyube, for now, same as everyone, not OP, easy to revenge, crappy typing and movepool you know the deal.
Lol I'm not calling you at all Stone, cause I'm glad this is where you have settled. But for all of you who still question "why we suspect"
Because things aren't obvious as they seem, and if people put a legitimate effort forward to try and also have an open mind, we can actually get to the bottom of these issues.
Just found the best Kyurem-B set!!!
Kyurem-Black @ Expert Belt
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
2HKOes everything in the meta with just SR, except from the blobs, and OHKOes plenty of stuff with SR + Spikes, or just SR. Honestly Expert Belt is sooooo good, as Kyurem-B's coverage is fucking exceptional, and almost every poke he kills, he does it with a super effective move. The best part is that so many people get fooled and believe that Kyurem-B is choiced when they don't see Lefties or LO, and they easily lose a poke when trying to set-up with a sweeper that resists Kyurem-B'S supposed choice locked move. Oh and Terravolt helps so much. Without Terravolt Kyurem-B would be walled by Rotom-W, which now falls flat to Earth Power, and would be unable to 2HKO Mamoswine, which he can easily OHKO now with SR + Spikes. This set is amazing people, seriously!
It's not like these common HO teams are particular effective against Kyurem-B (in fact some of them are VERY weak to Kyurem-B) OR that Kyurem-B has a particular stake in the majority of these team styles. Kyurem-B is not the reason why these teams are common, I really do think it's as simple as "Players smartening up" or a the very least, understanding just how strong these Deo-D / Genesect / Rain HO teams truly are. Last round was filled with Sand teams trying to make use out of Sand Veil Garchomp (which admittedly outside of sand veil hax, were fine) or Lavosoffense (which is also fine). Neither of these common team styles necessitated the use "powerful" teams which was why the last round was so diverse. This isn't uncommon; it took players a while to realize just how strong Sand Veil Garchomp is in BW1.
There's no concrete correlation between Kyurem-B & a bad metagame. It's just a good Pokemon, but it's in no way the single entity responsible for this metagame, and I guarantee you that banning it won't change a thing. After all, most of the suspect players laddering right now aren't even USING Kyurem-B, and they won't stop using those teams even after its banned. Can you honestly say the majority of your suspect ladder matches even included Kyurem-B? Off the top of my head, most of the ladders who also regularly post here didn't even bother using it.
EDIT: ok so pretty much what Pocket said.
Got the deviation low enough for reqs yesterday and figured I’d chime in to agree with dragonuser/doom/others. Kyurem-B clearly won’t be single-handedly sweeping through teams, but that isn’t the only justification for a ban. Virtually everything we’ve voted out of the tier can be checked, but the impact a pokemon has on both team building and battling is much broader than some posts in this thread seem to imply. Even though the detrimental effects might not be readily apparent in every match, closer inspection has led me to believe Kyurem-B’s presence actually does adversely affect our tier.
After some thought, I think Kyurem-B’s most grievous offense is the enormous restriction it places on team building. It may not be considered “fast” by the current metagame’s standards, but its unrivaled power and efficient coverage immediately make the inclusion of almost anything slower a liability in team construction. Ferrothorn, Forretress, Breloom, and Scizor are exceptions to this, but the first three checks lack reliable recovery, and Breloom can’t switch into Kyurem-B directly like the others. Players can theoretically avoid giving Kyurem-B a chance to fire off one of its obscenely powerful moves by packing multiple pokemon capable of outspeeding and OHKOing this behemoth, but this strategy is difficult to implement because of Kyurem-B’s oft-underestimated bulk. Assuming Kyurem-B doesn't have some (debatably more distressing) investment in bulk, Garchomp, Salamence, Terrakion, specs Keldeo, offensive Latios(as), Landorus, and Thundurus-T are the only things in the tier actually capable of doing this “reliably” (in quotes because the first two are forced to Outrage, while the last two have to rely on Focus Blast’s awful accuracy). We can factor Jirachi, another respectable check, into the equation, but we still aren’t left with much to choose from. Even disregarding this extremely small pool of viable options, nearly all of the vulnerable offensive checks are utterly ruined by scarf sets, and the few defensive checks are severely crippled by mixed variants. While other pokemon in the tier can certainly trip up common checks with alternative sets, Kyurem-B’s towering attack stat affixes far graver consequences to this guessing game. As a result, players keen on surviving all forms of Kyurem-B’s onslaught are often forced to fill already limited team slots with more than one pokemon off this brief list (a team building cap that, I'd argue alongside dragonuser, cuts down on the number of usable team archetypes).
While I highly doubt Kyurem-B is solely responsible for the metagame’s staleness, I do believe its existence is a contributing factor. Accordingly, I’ll be voting it out; I encourage others to consider doing the same. Like some previous posters, I agree that OU has some arguably bigger concerns (Genesect, Deoxys-D, Tornadus-T, etc.) at the moment, but I wholly reject the idea of keeping something problematic inside the tier simply because there are other, more problematic things surrounding it. Regardless of a problem’s relative size, if we’re given the opportunity to fix one, we should take that step towards betterment until we’re allowed to cast ballots on the even-more-monstrous remainder. At their most fundamental level, suspect tests are meant to improve the metagame—others are obviously free to disagree with my rationale, but I'm ready to start making that happen.
edit: yep, all threats restrict team building--the operative word in my sentence was "enormous"
Eet, any significant threat restricts teambuilding. The more pertinent question is "how much does it restrict teambuilding?" Greater restriction indicates the centralization caused by Kyurem-Black. I had to tweak my teams to better accommodate this new threat, sure, but not to the extent where I am packing counters specifically and exclusively for Kyurem-Black - my Kyu-B checks have more outreaching purposes.
I've been running Sub + HC Kyurem-Black for my suspect laddering, and it wasn't impressive. It has amazing bulk, yes, but its bulk isn't good enough to keep a sub intact from a moderately strong move. Its special bulk is mediocre, and it pretty much dies to any powerful special moves if unresisted. SR weakness and its exploitable weakness to Dragon, Fighting, Rock, and Steel-type moves makes it easily revenge-killed. Its bulk would have been exceptional if it was a Dragon Dancer, but not for an unboosted sweeper with subpar Speed.
Granted there are other sets with their respective flaws. CB Kyurem-Black is stupidly powerful, but easily forced out and SR damage will stack up. Mixed Kyurem must sacrifice its bulk. Sub + 3 Atks suffers from 4 MSS and finds itself walled by something. My biggest pet peeve about Kyurem-Black is that it cannot utilize Outrage without dying the next turn. From my experience in using and facing Kyurem-Black, it's certainly not a problem for OU.
Christ, can we drop the hyperboles?
I'm getting of tired of seeing the same "laundry list of points to prove that i'm right, and i'll come back with hyperbole just to make sure you're TOTALLY convinced!!" It's like you people have never played against CB Haxorus or Mixe Hydreigon/Salamence before. Being uncounterable and being broken are mutually exclusive!! Why are we focusing on the fact that Kyurem-B basically guarantees a Pokemon when this isn't even a new concept introduced in BW. I thought we abandoned those outdated concepts early on, but people constantly keep focusing on them, it's obnoxious. It basically boils down to this; Kyurem-B switches into a Pokemon it can force out, Fires off a CB and kills something (or not, doesn't matter it isn't any different than Haxorus in that regard) or acts like a mixed attackerand heavily damages/cripples something. (again no different from The mixed attacking Dragons)
That's not broken, that's called being a "good Pokemon." You know, like Rock Polish Landorus and it's ability to OHKO everything set up, Terrakion and it's, or Keldeo smashing shit up with Hydro Pumps or the Lati twins and their lightning fast Draco Meteors or even old boy Garchomp who despite living in a metagame that is totally primed against it, still sees use for being awesome. The argument that Kyurem-B makes the metagame is also bunk. I could just as easily make arguments that RP Landorus is totally unhealthy for the metagame due to its ability to practically OHKO everything after set up / it having very little counters. I can do this Latios, Terrakion... you name it. The OU metagame cannot handle the tremors of Kyurem-B's thunder?? Fuck no. Personally, I would rather face a Kyurem-B than a Terrakion any of the week.
I hate to say this, but if you have a problem with Kyurem-b then you need to grow a thicker skin. BW OU2 is filled with dozens of "difficult" to Pokemon deal with. Kyurem-B isn't the first and it (probably) won't be the last.
"Christ, can we drop" both the animosity and the unjustified write-offs of dissenting opinions?
The word "counter" was never once used in my post; dismissing an entire argument under the premise that it misunderstands a pretty elementary concept that it doesn't actually misunderstand suggests either a comprehension failure or a disappointing lack of attention on the reader's part. Since most people seem relatively convinced one way or another on Kyurem-B by this point, I'm not about to start a reply-chain conflict in an attempt to draw out distinctions between the effects of the mentioned pokemon vs. the effects of Kyurem-B and expand upon the subjects I touched on previously. Please, though...don't act like you hold the one objectively "right" answer to any of this.
For people complaining about lack of diversity, I'll be getting reqs with a trick room team if that means anything -shrug-
Most stuff that I want to say has already been said, whatever kyurem-B can do, another dragon can do just as well, or better generally. In the current meta it's too slow, and weak to way too many common attackig types to be a broken or even reasonable threat. Kyurem-B isn't restricting team building, it's just the nature of the suspect ladder that people want to use effective teams to win as much as possible.
The suspect meta is inherently different to the regular OU meta for many reasons, kyurem-b being the least important, so stop blaming it for the stale meta.
You may want to calm down a bit and consider rewording this, since you've just said that a Pokemon that is uncounterable cannot possibly be broken.
A lot of Pokemon are uncouterable. Salamence being one of them.
I'm agreeing with PK Gaming. There are a ton of Pokemon in the OU meta game that sometimes require something to be sacrificed or to take a hell of a lot of damage in order to deal with a threat. I agree that Kyurem-B may not have many counters, but why for that reason should it not be allowed a fair chance in OU?
Think about it this way, coming off of what PK said about RP Landorus. If something like a Heatran comes into a RP Landorus, and the only thing on the team that can revenge kill is your Mamoswine, then Heatran or something else on the team has to be sacrificed in order for the free switch to Mamoswine. However, even then Landorus can still switch out. With Kyurem-B however, CB Outrage will ensure a KO, but at the same time ensure Kyurem-B to get revenged killed as well. Same goes with any set up sweeper like RP Landorus. Some big examples Breloom, who can force a switch with Spore AND sometimes OHKO with Mach Punch, sometimes leading to 4-6 already.
A Pokemon should not be banned due to a lack of a solid (key word) counter, but a check is a different story, which there's plenty of those out there for Kyurem-B. A few examples of something that was uncheckable, or lacked any reliable checks were Speed Boost Blaziken and Sand Rush Excadrill. Kyurem-B may not have reliable counters going for it, but should that really be the one reason as to why it should stay locked up in Ubers when there's a variety of checks out there?