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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    Counters are able to switch in safely and then threaten the ko/force it out, essentially taking all of their attacks and walling them constantly. Landorus can be KO'd on switch, while Genesect does not like taking a Fire Blast/Fire Fang on the switch. What you mentioned are checks, not counters.
  2. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Salamence by legend of DP OU is uncounterable because of dracometeor + fire blast + outrage.

    The thing is, pretty much no one runs draco meteor on Salamence anymore since walls aren't nearly as prevant as they where in DP. I am safely say that I have switched in Hippowdon and Slowbro into Salamence without care, only once in a long while will someone actually have a mixmence. I haven't seen mix mence at all in large numbers at all since this time last year.

    Even then, that kind of Salamence can't sweep, so yes it broke on of your walls, possibly opening up a sweep, but that is about the limit of mixmence. If you can stop the other sweeper well enough, that Salamence is left pretty much useless.

    This is me speaking from complete ladder experience, so if you try to go against it with theorymon, you are not going to get far.
  3. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Terribly sorry bro

    But I have my own series of ideas and thoughts concerning this game and i'm quick to let others know that. My intuition about the game is better than yours. Can i prove this? fuck no, it's fallacious claim, though that's just the way I feel. Does it really matter how I responded your post? Really??? The entire thing wasn't even necessarily directed towards you mind you, but ok let's make this about you. I heavily disagree with your main point that "kyurem-b puts a massive strain on team building" (at least, any more than other threats like RP Landorus or Terrakion Landorus) and gave my reasons to back that point up.

    Also, can you please tone down on the MASSIVE snark and elistism? The majority of your rebuttal is just an ad hominem directed towards me, for fucks sake. The smogon community is not some grand stage for enlightened theoretical debate wherein all logical arguments will play themselves out to their fullest extent and the greatest ideas shall take root in the end. To put it bluntly, the majority of us here talk about whatever the fucks on our mind. It's always been that way. I'm not going to sugarcoat my posts just to cater to people that disagree with me.

    EDIT: OH! Yeah ok. Hydreigon is uncounterable, but it's not broken. Excadrill is counterable(or at least it was before iron head*), but broken. That's basically the point i was trying to get across.
  4. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Maybe I'm picking the wrong point to talk about, but "broken" and "uncounterable" are not mutually exclusive. Yes, you pointed out two Pokemon that fit the bill of being mutually exclusive, but Reshiram in the sun is certainly uncounterable and broken in anything but the extreme heavyweight Ubers environment, and even then it's a stress to wall.

    As far as the conversation of Kyurem-B goes, I'd say he is not broken, though certain sets (not all, but some) are impossible to hard counter with a single Pokémon.
  5. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    shiit

    i wanted to say the other thing

    NOT mutually exclusive

    yeah

    though to be fair, my examples kind of made that clear >_>
  6. GaryTheGengar

    GaryTheGengar believe me sweety I've got enough to feed the needy

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    The main difference is that with salamence, you can predict and get your _____ in on _____ move, while kyurem-b just clicks outrage and 2hkos everything. You say landorus is uncounterable, but there are plenty of things that wall the standard rock polish set. You can bring up really obscure pokes like cresselia (actually walls mence too!) and spdef jellicent, or you can just bring up very common pokes like gengar, and latis, or occasionally used but still ou pokes like gyarados. Other relatively common pokemon that counter landorus include bronzong and chansey. Same thing with the other pokes you brought up, they all have very distinct counters (keldeo isn't breaking through psyshock latias ever, latias itself isn't getting through tyranitar).
  7. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    If you're going down that angle, how is that any different from Haxorus? It basically "clicks outrage and 2hkoes everything" and it actually has coverage moves that allow it to hurt the pokemon that checks it... CB Kyurem-b is literally CB Haxorus 1.5! And it's actually a lot less effective against things like Jirachi / Ferrothorn / Forretress because it can't hurt them if it's using CB. 3HKOing each of these threats with Outrage is cool, but outright OHKOing them is even cooler. Kyurem-B's outrages are really only relevant against Steel-types since CB Haxorus outrages also OHKO "practically everything in sight."

    RP Landorus was just an example, i didn't really place much stock in it tbh. I place each of these pokemon at a higher level than kyurem-b because they're harder to deal with when played right. Like with Latios, if you're not running Tyranitar / Jirachi / Ferrothorn, Latios will fuck you up. It's not all that different from Kyurem-B spamming Outrage, and you not running a defensive steel-type (and you can actually trap him).
  8. GaryTheGengar

    GaryTheGengar believe me sweety I've got enough to feed the needy

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    Haxorus has a hard time getting in vs offensive teams, due to it being so frail. Its also pretty solidly beaten by the omni-present genesect. Defensive teams will always have a skarmory or something that can tank two haxorus outrages. Now with Kyurem, it has absolutely massive bulk, and is difficult to revenge. It also isn't weak to anything genesect commonly carries, which is HUGE. Skarmory is destroyed by fusion bolt, leaving it to rampage through defensive teams with ease. I've played many matches where haxorus has failed to do anything, while kyurem-b most often gets at least one kill, often two.

    Latios is a different case than kyurem-b. Say both get in safely against an offensive team, and nuke a pokemon. Kyurem has to be revenged, as almost nothing can set up against it. Latios can be easily set up on, beginning a counter sweep. Latios can often become a liability, while kyurem-b never is. The worst it'll do is die without doing anything, which doesn't happen at all, while latios could allow your opponent to set up a dangerous sweeper.
  9. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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  10. Leader Fox

    Leader Fox

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    Well in my experience Kyurem-b has a hard time switching in just because of his Ice Typing not to mention he loses 25% of his health to rocks while haxorus can actually switch in and out, the thing is kyurem-b can only switch into Walls or semi Walls or Choice pokemon locked into a weak move for Kyurem-b to take advantage of while a haxorus can actually take stab moves from certain pokemon and Outright KO it. I also have a question, how come not losing to genesect 1 on 1 a bad thing -_- and also making Rain Offense a little less effective, i mean people make it seem like genesect needs to revenge the entire tier ( which it almost does).
  11. tehy

    tehy

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    Not to pile on you PK gaming, but RP landorus is... Well it IS hard to deal with when set up;my whole team can attest to it. On the other hand... Celebi can take a hit and fire back, as can rotom-w and the latis. So it's got plenty of offensive checks. The difference between that and offensive "Sack something" checks are totally different. Normally this here would be a dickish move of "HAHA UR OVERARCHING POINT IS RITE BUT NOT EXAMPLE SUCK IT NUB", except... the example sort of misproves the overarching point. Really, find me a few other pokemon that are generally only checked by a few other pokemon/sacrifice and counter KO. And they can't be easily pursuitable either, because that makes a strategy like this actually feasible.

    You also bring up haxorus. Let's start with the less bulk, continue on to the ability to run mixed sets and heal, and finish it off with skarmory, which basically counters everything haxorus runs except:
    Haxorus in rain(Can still stall for a miss)
    SD LO Superpower(And still a beautiful check to that)
    Your SD dragon plate taunt bulky set(Did anybody ever use that?).
    So yeah, there's a major difference right there. And again, 23 base attack goes a long way-it's nearly the difference between excadrill and sandslash. While there are other contributing factors , that's the difference between banned and I haven't seen in it a month in OU.


    Basically, any offensive team loses a pokemon, and it doesn't lock itself into outrage. And weather boosts one of its stabs to the point that it demolishes everything. Kyurem-B is not NEARLY as good in sun, because it can't just spam blue flare all day. Meanwhile, dragon/fire is kind of not a bad typing-you're still weak to ground and rock, but you're not weak to ice or fighting and you even resist steel, so no priority bailout except... aqua jet, i suppose.

    If your entire argument is that you can lose a pokemon, then revenge with a scarfer, and not even because you let said set up, you're wrong. At least kyurem-B has a couple checks that it needs to hit with a coverage move. Reshiram's stabs wreck everything but t-tar, who will be outsped sans scarf, which is pretty rare, and maybe chansey/blissey, who can still be slammed by outrage/pwned in the sun. Reshiram actually fucks over offense hugely, especially with a flame charge/sub set.

    TL;DR:Most pokemon in the OU metagame cannot force you to sack a pokemon quite so easily; haxorus is a bad example because it's got its own problems, and reshiram is just ridicuous and is only "not so great" in ubers because ubers has pokemon with ridiculous bulk to take its hits and ridiculous strength to dish out comparable hits.
  12. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    How many times does this need to be said? Ubers performance has dick to do with OU placement. Reshiram isn't as good as it used to be in Ubers, but so what? It's sure as hell something we shouldn't be testing, and I'd say that OU is far less hostile to it than Ubers. Kyurem-B isn't anywhere near as good as Reshiram, especially in sun. You can't compare giving a STAB to a 70 Base Power move to giving double-STAB to a 135 Base Power move. Reshiram doesn't have one stupidly powerful spammable STAB move, it has two. Reshiram easily pushes sun over the top. Dragon / Fire is one of the best offensive combos in the game, especially since TurboBlaze lets you pretty much ignore Heatran, who is typically a good answer to Fire-type-based offensive teams. Reshiram and Kyurem-B are not at all comparable.

    So, to make this perfectly clear since I'm kind of sick of seeing this crop up in this thread: Stop talking about dropping other things or why we should have dropped something else before Kyurem-B. This thread is for discussion of Kyurem-B's place in the current metagame and only Kyurem-B's.

    Now, to make this post more pertinent: How is everyone's experience with bulky or specially defensive Kyurem-B? I've run into it a few times and it can survive a surprising amount of shit. IIRC it tanked a +2 LO Venusaur Sludge Bomb and a Scarf Garchomp Outrage for about 65% each, certainly nothing to scoff at. I'm sure hail would be its favorite weather but it also seemed to be effective on weatherless teams.
  13. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Tobes brought up Kyurem-B's Specially defensive set. Okay I will add a fun calculation to that.
    OK, so was doing some random calculations and found out that Max HP/Max Spdef+ Kyurem-B can counter the most common variant of Tornadus-T if SR is off the field(which isnt hard;its OU after all, not ubers-Giratina/Arceus Ghost)
    Tornadus-T's Hurricane vs Specially Defensive Kyurem-B:
    319 Atk vs 306 Def & 454 HP (120 Base Power): 177 - 208 (38.99% - 45.81%)
    Tornadus-T's Superpower vs Kyurem-B:
    237 Atk vs 236 Def & 454 HP (120 Base Power): 226 - 266 (49.78% - 58.59%)
    Note: Superpower cannot 2hko because of the attack drop. Hurricane+Superpower cannot KO because of leftover's recovery
    Kyurem-B's uninvested Fusion Bolt vs Tornadus-T:
    372 Atk vs 196 Def & 299 HP (100 Base Power): 272 - 322 (90.97% - 107.69%)
    This is a OHKO after Life Orb recoil. Kyurem-B can also use roost to regain a bit of health before KOing it back.
    Another thing, its uninvested Outrage OHKOs Bulky Starmie.

    Anyway, the only reason Kyurem-B isnt as good as it should be is because it doesnt have a physical Ice STAB. It's a lot like how Ho-Oh used to be before HGSS.....no Brave Bird(you could only KO Kyogre with Sky Attack; charge attack? Sound familiar, right Kyurem-B?). I am hoping for Icicle Spear in the next game. It used something like this in the NDS game; then again, the move Kyurem was using might have been Glaciate.
  14. PryorConvictions

    PryorConvictions

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    So I got requirements earlier today and I wanted to put in my input on Kyurem-b and its effect on the metagame.

    First, and foremost, I don't believe Kyurem-b is in anyway "broken" in the current OU metagame. While Kyurem-b has nice bulk and amazing attack stat, I don't see any strengths that hugely overpower its flaws in this metagame. The flaws I see in Kyurem-b are the following: unfortunate ice typing, slow, weakness to common priority (mach punch, bullet punch), and (imo) a subpar moveset. I think that I should further elaborate on this; Kyurem-b is weak to all entry hazards, a terror when trying to run scarf or band sets. Additionally, I've found that suspect testing has been a generally faster paced metagame, which includes all the new BW2 toys that introduced a plethora of pokemon above base 100 speed. Kyurem-b has the power to steal a kill from the opposide side; however, it's weaknesses to common priority moves prevents Kyurem-b from sweeping often. From my own conclusions, Kyurem-b cannot do enough to be considered "broken" in this metagame.

    However, I think that Kyurem-b is still a pretty cool threat in this metagame. It has pretty good bulk that lets it take advantage of a mixed sub set, which in my opinion is the best set for Kyurem-b. Unfortunately, its attack doesn't gain any notable kills, but Kyurem-b's ability Teravolt allows it to completely neglect abilities like Multiscale (a lifesaver at times). Also, I think that Kyurem-b provides a splash of diversity in this metagame by providing hail teams with another threat, not to mention a decent check to rain threats.

    Overall, I think that Kyurem-b should be lowered down into OU and that Kyurem-b has a (mostly) beneficial effect on the metagame by providing a little bit of diversity. I think that a lot of people are over-exaggerating the staleness in the suspect metagame. If you go into OU and play a couple games there, you don't see Valentine's rain team everywhere or Deo-d + 5 sweepers and I think this is how the metagame would shape after the suspect test ends (assuming Kyurem-b comes down). The main reason why Suspect Test felt so stale imo is because of the lack of people searching for battles. I think that the OU metagame was already kind of overcentralized already and Kyurem-b just helped people realize to start using Deo-D teams more. Kyurem-b isn't even in most battles anyways, so I see no reason to fret about overcentralization BECAUSE of Kyurem-b. This thread isn't even about the OU metagame anyways :\. Therefore, I think Kyurem-b is a great addition to the current OU metagame and look forwards to the suspect test coming up.
  15. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Holy shit tehy, your entire post is filled with assumptions and responses to points i wasn't even trying to make(on a stealth skarmory brag, real slick.). Kyurem-b is better than Haxorus, we get it, there's no need to beat it over my head on a consistent basis. If you're trying to say that it's so much better than Haxorus, than talk about that.

    like... can we forget about haxorus & reshiram for a sec, this is the kyurem-b show thread.

    QUESTION: What is your favorite Kyurem-B set.
    QUESTION 2: What team type do you typically use Kyurem-B on.
  16. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
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    Mix set with Blizzard and HP Fire, Expert Belt.
    Hail teams. :s

    Damn, I suck.
  17. ChrisTehAwesome

    ChrisTehAwesome

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    So I got voter requirements and thought I'd share my thoughts.

    Personally I started out using Kyurem-B but as I changed my team around, I realized he was really the dead weight. As the test went on, the battles became more and more like regular OU, if a bit more offensive. Teams occasionally had Kyurem-B but I wouldn't be surprised if another mon (genesect, Deoxys-D, Terrakion) was #1 in usage on this ladder.

    My team ended up being Lead Terrakion, Banded Scizor, RP Genesect, Specs Magnezone, DDnite, and RP special Landorus.

    If anything, Kyurem-B was just an interesting addition to opposing teams in that it was a decent check to my genesect set, but ended up being destroyed by scizor or magnezone's flash cannon.

    tl;dr Cool pokemon, still weak to many common threats. Should make a nice addition to OU.
  18. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    favorite kyurem-b moveset:

    Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 56 Spd / 252 HP / 120 SDef / 80 Def
    Careful Nature
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Tail
    - Hone Claws / Earth Power / Ice Beam
    - Roost

    this thing is a replica of the set i used with kyurem when it was uu way back when. it is a boss cause it destroys rain and makes rain wish it was never born. seriously you can set up on a good majority of rain -- you can even set up on tornadus-t by bluffing a choice scarf set. if the rain team doesnt have ferrothorn then you utterly destroy them. if it does then thats not a real problem cause you can just switch out to your counter while they attempt to break your sub with gyro ball -- giving you free reign to DESTROY. if you pair this guy up with wobbuffet then you destroy rain even better, because you know that your opponent will attempt to perish song kyurem-b and you can just switch to wobbuffet and win the weather war. give it entry hazard support and you gonna win. plus this thing is bulky as f so even if you arent facing rain (which you probably will be) its still useful!! earth power if you wanna wreck jirachi but i like hone claws since it makes you super powerful zzzzzzzz

    edit: oh yeah the ev spread sucks but whatever i just wanted to make it bulky as possible while also outspeeding tentacruel in order to set up da sub
  19. tehy

    tehy

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    I don't think i really made any ridiculous assumptions. Haxorus and kyurem B are both physical dragons and have similar speeds;it ends there. Kyurem B, IMO ,is haxorus 2.0, not 1.5. The sheer versatility means you can't just go skarm trolol and GG;you can't even always sacrifice something, although it's a good bet. I guess priority weakness sucks, but i still think it's WAY better than haxorus.

    I think i responded to your points.

    And what was up with the "So many"? There were 2-3 assumptions/points, at best.
    I don't brag about skarmory. Skarmory is like a subcontractor that i hire to do work i, as a main contractor, cannot. I will recommend him to people and explain what he can do, but i don't care if he does well or not, as long as he does well for me.

    Fave kyu-B set is CB, because it's less scary. For reals,it's got to be a Sub/Ice beam/Outrage/Earth Power set. Basically, scizor or bust, with a side of Gyro ball Ferrothorn.

    Fave kyu-B team is anything that i can set up hazards on and isn't threatening. But fo' reals, a good stall team.

    Come to think of it, a volt-turn team. Blocks SR and gives him free switches for his KO's on bitches. If someone does that for real, we might see his bitch ass banned.


    Not to keep this running on, but in PO kyu-B is actually getting so low usage as to maybe drop to UU, usage-wise. Ladder sucks, sure, but sorta kills my point.
  20. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    My only preferred set after qualifying and bothering to lose enough with Kyurem-B to try it out (lol):

    Kyurem-B@Expert Belt
    252 spatk / 252 speed hasty
    ~Dragon Claw
    ~Ice Beam
    ~Earth Power
    ~Focus Blast

    Yea, that's 0 atk evs and -def nature and no outrage...I used this solely to set up my other sweepers and I hated losing it early game when locked into an outrage. I just used this to lower Jirachi / Ferro (using EP and FB respectively) for Double Dance Thund-t and doing things like switching it into Politoed / Tenta (and praying for no Burn fuck Scald and fuck Gamefreak for making that terrible move) and then playing mind games with the opponent cause he knew something was getting hurt.

    Again, sole purpose was to punch small holes in opposition to let my Thund-t set up...iirc the only things that can take this are WoW Jellicent / Mew / Sableye...and no fucking Jellicent is staying in on this unless it knows it doesn't have Fusion Bolt lol, so the first time I play someone I'm ok. Even Sableye is hurt by Ice Beam though so as long as you have some way to handle bulky Mew (hello Genesect), you should be good.

    I know people have been really making a big deal of Kyurem-B's outrages but...lol, as an offensive player (in a notably offensive metagame), sacrificing something to take out something isn't a "liability," it's literally expected every single game. When I see opposing Kyurem-B outrage, I jump for joy, cause it just means I sac something and take out Kyu-B easily. I'd honestly recommend not using Outrage that much in a meta as offensive as this (as counterintuitive as that may sound)...

    Even though I didn't use the Sub set much, I'd say the sets that scare me the most are Sub sets and 4 attack (non outrage) sets cause both put the onus on me as a player to make the best move or get wrecked by Kyurem-B (who also doesn't have nearly as bad a movepool as the other side has been claiming it does).
  21. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Funny how that works. You weren't complaining about Lava Plume back in 2007, now were you? :] (this is a joke, I've gotten 3 PMs about it...)

    Interesting, double dancing Thundurus-T...what's your set for that? I would assume you're running NP/Agility/Thunder/HP Ice @ LO, but I can't be certain...maybe Grass Knot? Please elaborate, this sounds like something I'd use.
  22. bubbly

    bubbly

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    Off topic, but Lava Plume doesn't hit supereffectively the only type which is immune to it's Burn chance. It also gets low distribution, almost exclusively limited to Fire types, which as we know is a terrible defensive typing compared to Water.

    Back on topic, defensive Kyurem-B is really great, especially the Dragon Tail set balla posted. I'm not sure though if it isn't outclassed by regular Kyurem, which can SubRoost with Pressure.
  23. yaya0

    yaya0

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    I expect even Ferrothorn to be less used than it has been predicted; Kyu-B's Outrage may not be a threat, but more Fire-types are the logical result of a Kyu-B unban.
  24. ske7ch6336

    ske7ch6336

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    With support, he rips through teams. Stealth Rock really hurts him, because a bullet punch could lower him to near KO range, and his defenses are super thin considering the vast amount of Ice type weaknesses, all which are common in OU.

    To make up for his lack of Speed, I use SubPass Ninjask with leftovers, it at least gives him a x2.5 speed boost to his low speed, and if Ninjask's Sub survives a hit (which is rare) I can get a Swords Dance in there, which is always nice. There is a few problems with this set though, it is not golden.

    -Stealth Rock. Stealth rock drops his HP down to 75%, which a Banded Scizor can OHKO with a Bullet Punch. Genesect can OHKO Kyu-B with a Flash Cannon. He needs to get in there before hazards are placed.

    -Politoed. Politoed may fall weak to Kyu-B's extremely powerful Fusion Bolt, but one Scald can make a mockery of his super high attack with a burn. Politoed's Perish Song is passed on through SubPass, which means if you are hit by Perish Song, you are left with a slow and and not so bulky ball and chain.

    -Steel Types. Steel types resist every single one of Kyu-B's physical STAB's, which means even if he survives a Bullet Punch from Scizor, he can easily kill him the next turn. Kyurem-B cannot learn Fire Blast nor Flamethrower to back up his also high 120 SpA, which means he is essentially screwed when it comes to Scizor and Genesect.

    -Movepool. His small movepool really hurts him. Kyu-B gets Dragon Claw/Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Roost as a recovery, and NO Ice type physical STAB's. If Kyu-B is put on a hail team he can send of nasty Blizzards, but no physical Ice STABS really hurts his game.

    In my opinion, while really fun to use when he works (Which is only 25% of the time), if Kyurem-B were to join OU, he should join his fellow pre-self Kyurem in the BL tier. Call me crazy, but he really isn't good in OU either. Even if he can't play in OU, PLEASE take this poor Poke out of Uber. He is probably getting crushed in there.
  25. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    I might as well share what I've been using now that the clock is running down.

    Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 28 Atk / 252 SAtk / 228 Spd
    Mild Nature
    - Outrage / Fusion Bolt
    - Blizzard
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    I've brought this point up in another thread, but I'll quote it here.
    With all that said, this set is built for a Hail team. It's just Mixed Kyurem but with HP Fire over DMeteor and a far better ability. Fusion Bolt just depends on how much Rain teams annoy you but Outrage is mostly for hitting Blissey and whatnot; just like the on-site Kyurem set.

    The other set I was testing is a Sun Kyurem-B.

    Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 52 HP / 56 SAtk / 252 SDef / 148 Spd
    Gentle Nature
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Roost

    Not quite as potent as the Hail set, but it is built to help deal with Rain threats and when Rain is around it does its job fantastically; not so much against Sand though. Of course its shared Rock weakness with Ninetales demands support but I've ran it with Landorus-T and never had the Rock weakness be an issue because of it.


    I'm not at all saying those sets are better than the physical sets. I wanted to see if Kyurem-B truly out-classes Kyurem as a Mixed Attacker and I found that it absolutely does and can very well replace Kyurem as a purely Special Attacker as well. Teravolt is just that good.

    I find that it's still not broken at all in the metagame, (I've of course used the Physical sets as well) but I will admit that it would be questionable if Genesect wasn't so common. I feel that it will take the same place that Lucario has always taken; it's a great Pokemon but it needs a fair bit of support to do anything...a lot like BW1 Kyurem now that I think about it.
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