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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. Cyrrona

    Cyrrona blessed unrest
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    Got the deviation low enough for reqs yesterday and figured I’d chime in to agree with dragonuser/doom/others. Kyurem-B clearly won’t be single-handedly sweeping through teams, but that isn’t the only justification for a ban. Virtually everything we’ve voted out of the tier can be checked, but the impact a pokemon has on both team building and battling is much broader than some posts in this thread seem to imply. Even though the detrimental effects might not be readily apparent in every match, closer inspection has led me to believe Kyurem-B’s presence actually does adversely affect our tier.

    After some thought, I think Kyurem-B’s most grievous offense is the enormous restriction it places on team building. It may not be considered “fast” by the current metagame’s standards, but its unrivaled power and efficient coverage immediately make the inclusion of almost anything slower a liability in team construction. Ferrothorn, Forretress, Breloom, and Scizor are exceptions to this, but the first three checks lack reliable recovery, and Breloom can’t switch into Kyurem-B directly like the others. Players can theoretically avoid giving Kyurem-B a chance to fire off one of its obscenely powerful moves by packing multiple pokemon capable of outspeeding and OHKOing this behemoth, but this strategy is difficult to implement because of Kyurem-B’s oft-underestimated bulk. Assuming Kyurem-B doesn't have some (debatably more distressing) investment in bulk, Garchomp, Salamence, Terrakion, specs Keldeo, offensive Latios(as), Landorus, and Thundurus-T are the only things in the tier actually capable of doing this “reliably” (in quotes because the first two are forced to Outrage, while the last two have to rely on Focus Blast’s awful accuracy). We can factor Jirachi, another respectable check, into the equation, but we still aren’t left with much to choose from. Even disregarding this extremely small pool of viable options, nearly all of the vulnerable offensive checks are utterly ruined by scarf sets, and the few defensive checks are severely crippled by mixed variants. While other pokemon in the tier can certainly trip up common checks with alternative sets, Kyurem-B’s towering attack stat affixes far graver consequences to this guessing game. As a result, players keen on surviving all forms of Kyurem-B’s onslaught are often forced to fill already limited team slots with more than one pokemon off this brief list (a team building cap that, I'd argue alongside dragonuser, cuts down on the number of usable team archetypes).

    While I highly doubt Kyurem-B is solely responsible for the metagame’s staleness, I do believe its existence is a contributing factor. Accordingly, I’ll be voting it out; I encourage others to consider doing the same. Like some previous posters, I agree that OU has some arguably bigger concerns (Genesect, Deoxys-D, Tornadus-T, etc.) at the moment, but I wholly reject the idea of keeping something problematic inside the tier simply because there are other, more problematic things surrounding it. Regardless of a problem’s relative size, if we’re given the opportunity to fix one, we should take that step towards betterment until we’re allowed to cast ballots on the even-more-monstrous remainder. At their most fundamental level, suspect tests are meant to improve the metagame—others are obviously free to disagree with my rationale, but I'm ready to start making that happen.

    edit: yep, all threats restrict team building--the operative word in my sentence was "enormous"
    Meru and Princess Bubblegum like this.
  2. Pocket

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    Eet, any significant threat restricts teambuilding. The more pertinent question is "how much does it restrict teambuilding?" Greater restriction indicates the centralization caused by Kyurem-Black. I had to tweak my teams to better accommodate this new threat, sure, but not to the extent where I am packing counters specifically and exclusively for Kyurem-Black - my Kyu-B checks have more outreaching purposes.

    I've been running Sub + HC Kyurem-Black for my suspect laddering, and it wasn't impressive. It has amazing bulk, yes, but its bulk isn't good enough to keep a sub intact from a moderately strong move. Its special bulk is mediocre, and it pretty much dies to any powerful special moves if unresisted. SR weakness and its exploitable weakness to Dragon, Fighting, Rock, and Steel-type moves makes it easily revenge-killed. Its bulk would have been exceptional if it was a Dragon Dancer, but not for an unboosted sweeper with subpar Speed.

    Granted there are other sets with their respective flaws. CB Kyurem-Black is stupidly powerful, but easily forced out and SR damage will stack up. Mixed Kyurem must sacrifice its bulk. Sub + 3 Atks suffers from 4 MSS and finds itself walled by something. My biggest pet peeve about Kyurem-Black is that it cannot utilize Outrage without dying the next turn. From my experience in using and facing Kyurem-Black, it's certainly not a problem for OU.
  3. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Christ, can we drop the hyperboles?

    I'm getting of tired of seeing the same "laundry list of points to prove that i'm right, and i'll come back with hyperbole just to make sure you're TOTALLY convinced!!" It's like you people have never played against CB Haxorus or Mixe Hydreigon/Salamence before. Being uncounterable and being broken are mutually exclusive!! Why are we focusing on the fact that Kyurem-B basically guarantees a Pokemon when this isn't even a new concept introduced in BW. I thought we abandoned those outdated concepts early on, but people constantly keep focusing on them, it's obnoxious. It basically boils down to this; Kyurem-B switches into a Pokemon it can force out, Fires off a CB and kills something (or not, doesn't matter it isn't any different than Haxorus in that regard) or acts like a mixed attackerand heavily damages/cripples something. (again no different from The mixed attacking Dragons)

    That's not broken, that's called being a "good Pokemon." You know, like Rock Polish Landorus and it's ability to OHKO everything set up, Terrakion and it's, or Keldeo smashing shit up with Hydro Pumps or the Lati twins and their lightning fast Draco Meteors or even old boy Garchomp who despite living in a metagame that is totally primed against it, still sees use for being awesome. The argument that Kyurem-B makes the metagame is also bunk. I could just as easily make arguments that RP Landorus is totally unhealthy for the metagame due to its ability to practically OHKO everything after set up / it having very little counters. I can do this Latios, Terrakion... you name it. The OU metagame cannot handle the tremors of Kyurem-B's thunder?? Fuck no. Personally, I would rather face a Kyurem-B than a Terrakion any of the week.

    I hate to say this, but if you have a problem with Kyurem-b then you need to grow a thicker skin. BW OU2 is filled with dozens of "difficult" to Pokemon deal with. Kyurem-B isn't the first and it (probably) won't be the last.
  4. Cyrrona

    Cyrrona blessed unrest
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    "Christ, can we drop" both the animosity and the unjustified write-offs of dissenting opinions?

    The word "counter" was never once used in my post; dismissing an entire argument under the premise that it misunderstands a pretty elementary concept that it doesn't actually misunderstand suggests either a comprehension failure or a disappointing lack of attention on the reader's part. Since most people seem relatively convinced one way or another on Kyurem-B by this point, I'm not about to start a reply-chain conflict in an attempt to draw out distinctions between the effects of the mentioned pokemon vs. the effects of Kyurem-B and expand upon the subjects I touched on previously. Please, though...don't act like you hold the one objectively "right" answer to any of this.
    Princess Bubblegum likes this.
  5. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone

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    For people complaining about lack of diversity, I'll be getting reqs with a trick room team if that means anything -shrug-

    Most stuff that I want to say has already been said, whatever kyurem-B can do, another dragon can do just as well, or better generally. In the current meta it's too slow, and weak to way too many common attackig types to be a broken or even reasonable threat. Kyurem-B isn't restricting team building, it's just the nature of the suspect ladder that people want to use effective teams to win as much as possible.
    The suspect meta is inherently different to the regular OU meta for many reasons, kyurem-b being the least important, so stop blaming it for the stale meta.
  6. VaporeonIce

    VaporeonIce

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    You may want to calm down a bit and consider rewording this, since you've just said that a Pokemon that is uncounterable cannot possibly be broken.
  7. PDC

    PDC bitch please, you must have a mental disease
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    A lot of Pokemon are uncouterable. Salamence being one of them.
  8. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I'm agreeing with PK Gaming. There are a ton of Pokemon in the OU meta game that sometimes require something to be sacrificed or to take a hell of a lot of damage in order to deal with a threat. I agree that Kyurem-B may not have many counters, but why for that reason should it not be allowed a fair chance in OU?

    Think about it this way, coming off of what PK said about RP Landorus. If something like a Heatran comes into a RP Landorus, and the only thing on the team that can revenge kill is your Mamoswine, then Heatran or something else on the team has to be sacrificed in order for the free switch to Mamoswine. However, even then Landorus can still switch out. With Kyurem-B however, CB Outrage will ensure a KO, but at the same time ensure Kyurem-B to get revenged killed as well. Same goes with any set up sweeper like RP Landorus. Some big examples Breloom, who can force a switch with Spore AND sometimes OHKO with Mach Punch, sometimes leading to 4-6 already.

    A Pokemon should not be banned due to a lack of a solid (key word) counter, but a check is a different story, which there's plenty of those out there for Kyurem-B. A few examples of something that was uncheckable, or lacked any reliable checks were Speed Boost Blaziken and Sand Rush Excadrill. Kyurem-B may not have reliable counters going for it, but should that really be the one reason as to why it should stay locked up in Ubers when there's a variety of checks out there?
  9. dragonuser

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    Counters are able to switch in safely and then threaten the ko/force it out, essentially taking all of their attacks and walling them constantly. Landorus can be KO'd on switch, while Genesect does not like taking a Fire Blast/Fire Fang on the switch. What you mentioned are checks, not counters.
  10. Princess Bubblegum

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    Salamence by legend of DP OU is uncounterable because of dracometeor + fire blast + outrage.

    The thing is, pretty much no one runs draco meteor on Salamence anymore since walls aren't nearly as prevant as they where in DP. I am safely say that I have switched in Hippowdon and Slowbro into Salamence without care, only once in a long while will someone actually have a mixmence. I haven't seen mix mence at all in large numbers at all since this time last year.

    Even then, that kind of Salamence can't sweep, so yes it broke on of your walls, possibly opening up a sweep, but that is about the limit of mixmence. If you can stop the other sweeper well enough, that Salamence is left pretty much useless.

    This is me speaking from complete ladder experience, so if you try to go against it with theorymon, you are not going to get far.
  11. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Terribly sorry bro

    But I have my own series of ideas and thoughts concerning this game and i'm quick to let others know that. My intuition about the game is better than yours. Can i prove this? fuck no, it's fallacious claim, though that's just the way I feel. Does it really matter how I responded your post? Really??? The entire thing wasn't even necessarily directed towards you mind you, but ok let's make this about you. I heavily disagree with your main point that "kyurem-b puts a massive strain on team building" (at least, any more than other threats like RP Landorus or Terrakion Landorus) and gave my reasons to back that point up.

    Also, can you please tone down on the MASSIVE snark and elistism? The majority of your rebuttal is just an ad hominem directed towards me, for fucks sake. The smogon community is not some grand stage for enlightened theoretical debate wherein all logical arguments will play themselves out to their fullest extent and the greatest ideas shall take root in the end. To put it bluntly, the majority of us here talk about whatever the fucks on our mind. It's always been that way. I'm not going to sugarcoat my posts just to cater to people that disagree with me.

    EDIT: OH! Yeah ok. Hydreigon is uncounterable, but it's not broken. Excadrill is counterable(or at least it was before iron head*), but broken. That's basically the point i was trying to get across.
  12. Lord of Bays

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    Maybe I'm picking the wrong point to talk about, but "broken" and "uncounterable" are not mutually exclusive. Yes, you pointed out two Pokemon that fit the bill of being mutually exclusive, but Reshiram in the sun is certainly uncounterable and broken in anything but the extreme heavyweight Ubers environment, and even then it's a stress to wall.

    As far as the conversation of Kyurem-B goes, I'd say he is not broken, though certain sets (not all, but some) are impossible to hard counter with a single Pokémon.
  13. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    shiit

    i wanted to say the other thing

    NOT mutually exclusive

    yeah

    though to be fair, my examples kind of made that clear >_>
  14. GaryTheGengar

    GaryTheGengar believe me sweety I've got enough to feed the needy
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    The main difference is that with salamence, you can predict and get your _____ in on _____ move, while kyurem-b just clicks outrage and 2hkos everything. You say landorus is uncounterable, but there are plenty of things that wall the standard rock polish set. You can bring up really obscure pokes like cresselia (actually walls mence too!) and spdef jellicent, or you can just bring up very common pokes like gengar, and latis, or occasionally used but still ou pokes like gyarados. Other relatively common pokemon that counter landorus include bronzong and chansey. Same thing with the other pokes you brought up, they all have very distinct counters (keldeo isn't breaking through psyshock latias ever, latias itself isn't getting through tyranitar).
  15. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    If you're going down that angle, how is that any different from Haxorus? It basically "clicks outrage and 2hkoes everything" and it actually has coverage moves that allow it to hurt the pokemon that checks it... CB Kyurem-b is literally CB Haxorus 1.5! And it's actually a lot less effective against things like Jirachi / Ferrothorn / Forretress because it can't hurt them if it's using CB. 3HKOing each of these threats with Outrage is cool, but outright OHKOing them is even cooler. Kyurem-B's outrages are really only relevant against Steel-types since CB Haxorus outrages also OHKO "practically everything in sight."

    RP Landorus was just an example, i didn't really place much stock in it tbh. I place each of these pokemon at a higher level than kyurem-b because they're harder to deal with when played right. Like with Latios, if you're not running Tyranitar / Jirachi / Ferrothorn, Latios will fuck you up. It's not all that different from Kyurem-B spamming Outrage, and you not running a defensive steel-type (and you can actually trap him).
  16. GaryTheGengar

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    Haxorus has a hard time getting in vs offensive teams, due to it being so frail. Its also pretty solidly beaten by the omni-present genesect. Defensive teams will always have a skarmory or something that can tank two haxorus outrages. Now with Kyurem, it has absolutely massive bulk, and is difficult to revenge. It also isn't weak to anything genesect commonly carries, which is HUGE. Skarmory is destroyed by fusion bolt, leaving it to rampage through defensive teams with ease. I've played many matches where haxorus has failed to do anything, while kyurem-b most often gets at least one kill, often two.

    Latios is a different case than kyurem-b. Say both get in safely against an offensive team, and nuke a pokemon. Kyurem has to be revenged, as almost nothing can set up against it. Latios can be easily set up on, beginning a counter sweep. Latios can often become a liability, while kyurem-b never is. The worst it'll do is die without doing anything, which doesn't happen at all, while latios could allow your opponent to set up a dangerous sweeper.
  17. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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  18. Leader Fox

    Leader Fox

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    Well in my experience Kyurem-b has a hard time switching in just because of his Ice Typing not to mention he loses 25% of his health to rocks while haxorus can actually switch in and out, the thing is kyurem-b can only switch into Walls or semi Walls or Choice pokemon locked into a weak move for Kyurem-b to take advantage of while a haxorus can actually take stab moves from certain pokemon and Outright KO it. I also have a question, how come not losing to genesect 1 on 1 a bad thing -_- and also making Rain Offense a little less effective, i mean people make it seem like genesect needs to revenge the entire tier ( which it almost does).
  19. tehy

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    Not to pile on you PK gaming, but RP landorus is... Well it IS hard to deal with when set up;my whole team can attest to it. On the other hand... Celebi can take a hit and fire back, as can rotom-w and the latis. So it's got plenty of offensive checks. The difference between that and offensive "Sack something" checks are totally different. Normally this here would be a dickish move of "HAHA UR OVERARCHING POINT IS RITE BUT NOT EXAMPLE SUCK IT NUB", except... the example sort of misproves the overarching point. Really, find me a few other pokemon that are generally only checked by a few other pokemon/sacrifice and counter KO. And they can't be easily pursuitable either, because that makes a strategy like this actually feasible.

    You also bring up haxorus. Let's start with the less bulk, continue on to the ability to run mixed sets and heal, and finish it off with skarmory, which basically counters everything haxorus runs except:
    Haxorus in rain(Can still stall for a miss)
    SD LO Superpower(And still a beautiful check to that)
    Your SD dragon plate taunt bulky set(Did anybody ever use that?).
    So yeah, there's a major difference right there. And again, 23 base attack goes a long way-it's nearly the difference between excadrill and sandslash. While there are other contributing factors , that's the difference between banned and I haven't seen in it a month in OU.


    Basically, any offensive team loses a pokemon, and it doesn't lock itself into outrage. And weather boosts one of its stabs to the point that it demolishes everything. Kyurem-B is not NEARLY as good in sun, because it can't just spam blue flare all day. Meanwhile, dragon/fire is kind of not a bad typing-you're still weak to ground and rock, but you're not weak to ice or fighting and you even resist steel, so no priority bailout except... aqua jet, i suppose.

    If your entire argument is that you can lose a pokemon, then revenge with a scarfer, and not even because you let said set up, you're wrong. At least kyurem-B has a couple checks that it needs to hit with a coverage move. Reshiram's stabs wreck everything but t-tar, who will be outsped sans scarf, which is pretty rare, and maybe chansey/blissey, who can still be slammed by outrage/pwned in the sun. Reshiram actually fucks over offense hugely, especially with a flame charge/sub set.

    TL;DR:Most pokemon in the OU metagame cannot force you to sack a pokemon quite so easily; haxorus is a bad example because it's got its own problems, and reshiram is just ridicuous and is only "not so great" in ubers because ubers has pokemon with ridiculous bulk to take its hits and ridiculous strength to dish out comparable hits.
  20. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    How many times does this need to be said? Ubers performance has dick to do with OU placement. Reshiram isn't as good as it used to be in Ubers, but so what? It's sure as hell something we shouldn't be testing, and I'd say that OU is far less hostile to it than Ubers. Kyurem-B isn't anywhere near as good as Reshiram, especially in sun. You can't compare giving a STAB to a 70 Base Power move to giving double-STAB to a 135 Base Power move. Reshiram doesn't have one stupidly powerful spammable STAB move, it has two. Reshiram easily pushes sun over the top. Dragon / Fire is one of the best offensive combos in the game, especially since TurboBlaze lets you pretty much ignore Heatran, who is typically a good answer to Fire-type-based offensive teams. Reshiram and Kyurem-B are not at all comparable.

    So, to make this perfectly clear since I'm kind of sick of seeing this crop up in this thread: Stop talking about dropping other things or why we should have dropped something else before Kyurem-B. This thread is for discussion of Kyurem-B's place in the current metagame and only Kyurem-B's.

    Now, to make this post more pertinent: How is everyone's experience with bulky or specially defensive Kyurem-B? I've run into it a few times and it can survive a surprising amount of shit. IIRC it tanked a +2 LO Venusaur Sludge Bomb and a Scarf Garchomp Outrage for about 65% each, certainly nothing to scoff at. I'm sure hail would be its favorite weather but it also seemed to be effective on weatherless teams.
  21. Bossness

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    Tobes brought up Kyurem-B's Specially defensive set. Okay I will add a fun calculation to that.
    OK, so was doing some random calculations and found out that Max HP/Max Spdef+ Kyurem-B can counter the most common variant of Tornadus-T if SR is off the field(which isnt hard;its OU after all, not ubers-Giratina/Arceus Ghost)
    Tornadus-T's Hurricane vs Specially Defensive Kyurem-B:
    319 Atk vs 306 Def & 454 HP (120 Base Power): 177 - 208 (38.99% - 45.81%)
    Tornadus-T's Superpower vs Kyurem-B:
    237 Atk vs 236 Def & 454 HP (120 Base Power): 226 - 266 (49.78% - 58.59%)
    Note: Superpower cannot 2hko because of the attack drop. Hurricane+Superpower cannot KO because of leftover's recovery
    Kyurem-B's uninvested Fusion Bolt vs Tornadus-T:
    372 Atk vs 196 Def & 299 HP (100 Base Power): 272 - 322 (90.97% - 107.69%)
    This is a OHKO after Life Orb recoil. Kyurem-B can also use roost to regain a bit of health before KOing it back.
    Another thing, its uninvested Outrage OHKOs Bulky Starmie.

    Anyway, the only reason Kyurem-B isnt as good as it should be is because it doesnt have a physical Ice STAB. It's a lot like how Ho-Oh used to be before HGSS.....no Brave Bird(you could only KO Kyogre with Sky Attack; charge attack? Sound familiar, right Kyurem-B?). I am hoping for Icicle Spear in the next game. It used something like this in the NDS game; then again, the move Kyurem was using might have been Glaciate.
  22. PryorConvictions

    PryorConvictions

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    So I got requirements earlier today and I wanted to put in my input on Kyurem-b and its effect on the metagame.

    First, and foremost, I don't believe Kyurem-b is in anyway "broken" in the current OU metagame. While Kyurem-b has nice bulk and amazing attack stat, I don't see any strengths that hugely overpower its flaws in this metagame. The flaws I see in Kyurem-b are the following: unfortunate ice typing, slow, weakness to common priority (mach punch, bullet punch), and (imo) a subpar moveset. I think that I should further elaborate on this; Kyurem-b is weak to all entry hazards, a terror when trying to run scarf or band sets. Additionally, I've found that suspect testing has been a generally faster paced metagame, which includes all the new BW2 toys that introduced a plethora of pokemon above base 100 speed. Kyurem-b has the power to steal a kill from the opposide side; however, it's weaknesses to common priority moves prevents Kyurem-b from sweeping often. From my own conclusions, Kyurem-b cannot do enough to be considered "broken" in this metagame.

    However, I think that Kyurem-b is still a pretty cool threat in this metagame. It has pretty good bulk that lets it take advantage of a mixed sub set, which in my opinion is the best set for Kyurem-b. Unfortunately, its attack doesn't gain any notable kills, but Kyurem-b's ability Teravolt allows it to completely neglect abilities like Multiscale (a lifesaver at times). Also, I think that Kyurem-b provides a splash of diversity in this metagame by providing hail teams with another threat, not to mention a decent check to rain threats.

    Overall, I think that Kyurem-b should be lowered down into OU and that Kyurem-b has a (mostly) beneficial effect on the metagame by providing a little bit of diversity. I think that a lot of people are over-exaggerating the staleness in the suspect metagame. If you go into OU and play a couple games there, you don't see Valentine's rain team everywhere or Deo-d + 5 sweepers and I think this is how the metagame would shape after the suspect test ends (assuming Kyurem-b comes down). The main reason why Suspect Test felt so stale imo is because of the lack of people searching for battles. I think that the OU metagame was already kind of overcentralized already and Kyurem-b just helped people realize to start using Deo-D teams more. Kyurem-b isn't even in most battles anyways, so I see no reason to fret about overcentralization BECAUSE of Kyurem-b. This thread isn't even about the OU metagame anyways :\. Therefore, I think Kyurem-b is a great addition to the current OU metagame and look forwards to the suspect test coming up.
  23. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Holy shit tehy, your entire post is filled with assumptions and responses to points i wasn't even trying to make(on a stealth skarmory brag, real slick.). Kyurem-b is better than Haxorus, we get it, there's no need to beat it over my head on a consistent basis. If you're trying to say that it's so much better than Haxorus, than talk about that.

    like... can we forget about haxorus & reshiram for a sec, this is the kyurem-b show thread.

    QUESTION: What is your favorite Kyurem-B set.
    QUESTION 2: What team type do you typically use Kyurem-B on.
  24. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule Yo soy basura
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    Mix set with Blizzard and HP Fire, Expert Belt.
    Hail teams. :s

    Damn, I suck.
  25. ChrisTehAwesome

    ChrisTehAwesome

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    297
    So I got voter requirements and thought I'd share my thoughts.

    Personally I started out using Kyurem-B but as I changed my team around, I realized he was really the dead weight. As the test went on, the battles became more and more like regular OU, if a bit more offensive. Teams occasionally had Kyurem-B but I wouldn't be surprised if another mon (genesect, Deoxys-D, Terrakion) was #1 in usage on this ladder.

    My team ended up being Lead Terrakion, Banded Scizor, RP Genesect, Specs Magnezone, DDnite, and RP special Landorus.

    If anything, Kyurem-B was just an interesting addition to opposing teams in that it was a decent check to my genesect set, but ended up being destroyed by scizor or magnezone's flash cannon.

    tl;dr Cool pokemon, still weak to many common threats. Should make a nice addition to OU.
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