1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Oct 17, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    822
    Might I note that with stealth rock you have a chance to ohko with brellom and it's a straight up ohko with scizor.
  2. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    462
    There's something a little strange here in the idea of "broken for the current metagame". The thing is, if we just keep unbanning ubers, the metagame will get closer and closer to the uber metagame, meaning that by definition, all the ubers would eventually be fine for the current metagame. It just so happens that the current OU metagame is very offensively inclined and that the ubers that have been suspected have been offensive--garchomp starting the trend--which means that the offensive level of power in the OU meta is pretty close to the Ubers level, whereas the defensive hasn't gotten any boosts at all and is still down in "OU level". This is of course going to make stall pretty much non-viable. So I think we need to change our definition of what makes something broken in a metagame to broken in the "ideal metagame", not the current one.

    All that being said, I very much am not specifically against kyurem-b being unbanned. I haven't laddered with it much but probably will soon, but I think it's pretty clear that it on its own is not going to break the metagame. So I think the problem here is that there are two issues at hand:
    One, is kyurem-b broken? As I've said, It seems the answer is pretty confidently no (and this could easily still change).
    Two, is it a good idea to introduce pokemon that are not broken in the current metagame but will continue to make (continue to, not singlehandedly make) the metagame off-balance by essentially raising offense to an Ubers standard while doing nothing to improve defense? In my opinion, the answer seems to be no, but this seems like an issue that could merit further discussion.

    Anyway, that's what I see as being a big issue here, and I think we have to decided whether those two issues are separate or not.
  3. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2010
    Messages:
    825
    alright first i should apologize for being so hot headed about it, your post DID get me mad so thanks for clarifying

    people have complained about this, but it was a long time ago, in gsc when stall first formed. that meta is basically all stall (adding skarmory and spikes tends to do that kind of thing lol), and sure as hell people bitch about it, just that seeing as it's second gen, the playerbase makes a lot less noise than OU. pokemon has never been that defensive ever since, and stall has never ruled the game since that era, so there's been no need to complain. thus this comparison is hardly reasonable - the meta has never been too defensive in the first place (barring gsc). granted, people still complain about how playing against stall is boring and how that gets them up in arms (just look at the thread that i linked)

    as for stall coming back, lol i'm waiting to see it happen. i have tried, and better players than me have tried (MUCH better). but you don't get full stall no matter how far you push. the closest i've seen and remembered was the sand team that yee always tells me about, sr terrak/cb tar/scarf tran/cm latias/jellicent/skarmory. let's also remember that yee is quite a credible player, and a much better one than me although that doesn't say much. yet this is obviously not stall. the use of 2 choice mons and a terrakion on it precludes any possibility of it being stall. at best, it's balance, or spikestacking offense.

    full stall is something else entirely and i have yet to see it executed successfully. the definition of any playstyle is nebulous, but for me it would definitely be defined as a team composed almost entirely of defensive threats focused on hazards, phazing and outright walling. every full stall team i have seen, my own included, has a glaring weakness that is pretty easy to single out. it's not like how terrakion's best counters (golurk, nidoqueen, claydol) are all in lower tiers. if you make a full stall team right now, it will have a fatal weakness to something in OU, basically guaranteed. if you can predict the future i guess you could win anyway? but right now it's ladder roulette - wait until you get matched up against someone running the threat that kills you, lose to them, and move on. if you're so certain that stall is going to come back, then prove it by making that comeback (this call out is admittedly unfair because you don't like playing stall - we all have our own preferred playstyles). i have yet to see any evidence of it happening, and boy are people trying.

    and finally, as others have observed - it is completely true that cube is not the heart of the problem that stall is facing. nor is it garchomp, nor is it terrakion, nor is it NP thundurus-T or sd haxorus or any other one mon (although genesect and tornadus-T could both come pretty close lol). it's the ensemble of all these things at once, and many others besides, that makes stall unviable. therefore it would be inappropriate of me to complain about cube in particular when it is clearly not the originator of the issue. as PK said, if you're unhappy about cube, you should really have had issues with bw2 since it began, which i have had (although they were magnified when i started seriously thinking about suspects).
  4. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Look, OU is broken. It is broken and it will be until it's fixed. Garchomp was a step backwards, in my opinion. The problem, ironically, with Dragon/Ice is that the typical Dragon counter, Ice, is neutral, and you sure as hell aren't going to do much with a neutral HP. This only makes stall harder, honestly.

    The problem with Kyurem isn't just its offenses, which can be countered by only few Pokemon already, but its decent bulk. 125/100/90 defenses aren't that bad, and make it so it can't be KO'd as easily. Of course, CBand Bullet Punch Scizor and Guts Adamant Conkeldurr can 2HKO it, so it might not be as much of a threat as we thought. Just keep in mind that not much else will be able to be able to KO it.

    Bulky Metagross, of all things, can counter it:

    And hit back fairly hard:

    So we finally found a niche for Metagross. Welcome back to decency, old friend.

    TL;DR: It's a mixed bag. There are reasons for and against it, I'm just trying to give my opinion.
  5. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    940
    i dont understand this whole "kyurem-b makes shitty metagame shittier argument". i personally thought bannings only happened to pokemon that were deemed broken. last time i checked, making a bad metagame even worse does not qualify the pokemon for being broken. honestly if you dont like how ou is played there are plenty more tiers you can try out.
  6. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    462
    Well, in regards to the whole discussion on how the metagame should be rebalanced, I think there are two obvious ways to do it. One way would be do bring stuff like lugia down from ubers, which certainly would give stall a better shot. thb, this could pretty quickly shift the metagame in the other direction, as a single Ubers wall like lugia or giratina could wall essentially the entire metagame on its own. Of course, the solution to THIS problem would be to bring down more pokes like kyurem-b with stats that are able to compete with uber walls. This would be exactly what I mentioned above--essentially uberifying OU. The other solution, it seems to me, it pretty simple: change our definition of broken and lower the level of offensive power in OU by banning stuff like kyurem (and, possibly, genesect or torny-t or terrakion--I'm not so sure about these though, particularly the former two, as a great ability and versatility isn't the same type of power creep in my mind as what we've been experiencing. Terrakion is almost over the top though IMO, given its ridiculous stat spread, typing, and movepool--crucially, great set-up moves--, I'd be tempted to say things like terrakion are part of the offense-centralization of the metagame. Don't feel so sure about stuff like gene and torny though, primarily because they can't set up despite their incredible utility potential).

    IMO, this second option could be the solution to creating a more balanced OU metagame if that is what we want. Alternatively, if the powers that be determine that the ideal OU metagame is an offensively leaning one, then, our standards of what is broken offensively are less stringent. This comes with the logical repercussions though, one of which is that stall becomes essentially non-existent. There are many who would argue that this is a better metagame, and if that is the general consensus, I think this is exactly what the process will be.
  7. Leader Fox

    Leader Fox

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    33
    Stall is already if not dead so banning Kyurem-B just to prevent stall getting even lower is a bad argument as stall is already bad as of right now. I have played on the Suspect Ou ladder and i think Kyurem-B is not uber material , even with his Massive Attack stat i would prefer to use other dragons as they are much more reliable and probably can do more things to teams then a Kyurem-B can. All in All i think just because of the simple Power surge in B/W and with B/W 2 was going to Doom Stall inevitably, All in all Kyurem-B is not Broken for this metagame as that Ice typing meaning priority will always hinder Kyurem, along with a 95 speed stat to prevent the monster from sweeping, and also DAT Ice typing ;-;
  8. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2010
    Messages:
    825
    in case it was not clear, this is a statement that i unequivocally agree with. i honestly don't really care where cube lands right now - whether it falls to OU or remains uber, meta's basically gonna be the same before and after. dragon spam has skewed popularity right now due to novelty of cube, but in the long run, it might be a little more popular once that novelty dies down. but cube doesn't really bring anything new to that table, so we're still back where we started
  9. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,987
    As a past stall player myself, I really do believe the pokemon that hurts stall the most is Genesect (Garchomp treated the same as any other offensive dragon). I do realize this thread isn't about Genesect, but the topic has moved to why stall isn't viable, so its appropriate to bring up. Genesect really hurts a stall teams creativity and forced options down our throats that make team building nearly impossible. I made some fine creative stall teams in early BW2 before Genesect, but I can't do that any more. If you want stall back, get rid of the Genesect. Heck I would rather swap Kyurem-B with Genesect as a trade, as least there are a few pokemon I can use to wall it.

    Kyurem-B does seem like a massive pain though, every other team being drag-mag is just as good for a metagame as every other team being swift-swim offense 2 years ago. I would appreciate if we did not add Kyurem-B, but I don't even play this meta any more because of Genesect, so go nuts. Giratina and Lugia would be cool, but then we are just playing psuedo-ubers, after that are even more pokemon going to drop down.

    Overall: if your considered about stall, look at Genesect, not this thing, if not, then bring this down, your not changing anything.
  10. Nachos

    Nachos Good player alert!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,487
    The idea that "something without counters = uber" is so long ago and dead that I'm reading your posts in this thread and wondering if you're trolling. If you could also point out the other supposedly broken dragons (there is none) then that would be insightful.

    I basically agree with this post. Kyurem-B is the focus of the round, of course people are going to be trying it out in what they think is its best environment, that being dragmag. Not to mention it's day 3, so it's early on and everyone wants to try out the new 170 base attack dragon. What PK says about dragonspam stands as well, I don't see how the inclusion of Kyurem-B has suddenly made it better. Enter The Dragon is about as good of a DragMag team as you can get, any more dragons and you're suddenly weak to something like Terrakion. I'm not even sure which of the dragons that have been staples on dragmag teams for over a year you'd replace with Kyurem-B anyway.

    The idea that it should stay banned just because its another offensive thing to deal with is somewhat worrying, as that is probably the most ridiculous reason I've seen for banning something since participating in these suspect tests (and I've been here since the start). The viewpoint is moot anyway, because if you're prepared for Haxorus, Salamence and Dragonite, then you're already prepared for Kyurem-B (and I'd rather face Kyurem-B than Haxorus).

    If you're looking for a scapegoat to blame for all the offense in OU, then it by far and away shouldn't be Kyurem-B.
  11. Agastya

    Agastya

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Isn't "selectively" banning things the entire purpose of BL/Ubers though? Banning things that are too powerful to allow a healthy meta? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I got during all my time lurking.

    Anyway, Kyurem-B. I'm going to idly theorymon here without actually testing it since I don't really see these things being pointed out that much. Maybe something that's actually better than me can point out how wrong I am.

    While the 170 attack might seem "overkill" because it's not netting any more extra OHKOs/2HKOs, you're ignoring the fact it doesn't need as much EV investment to reach the same Attack scores as Haxorous. What Hax needs 252 EVs to hit, Kyu-B only needs 68. This allows room for investment in its respectable bulk (regardless of its terrible typing) or for investing its Speed if you really want to. Hax is listed as Adamant in a lot of its sets (yes I know many say Jolly as well, but the first two say Adamant) and Jolly 224/168 Kyu-B has the same Attack score with one more point of Speed, while still freeing up 118 EVs to put in HP pushing him up to 420. It lets him survive Jolly Techloom LO Bullet Punch with SR (I THINK, my damage calc is out of date and I had to apply the 1.3x manually and I got 261~306), but not SR + any form of Spikes, and he'll die anyway if you Orb him instead of Banding him, so eh. Jolly is probably the norm on Hax now though, and Kyu-B can't compete in that regard, but that's something to consider I guess? It's still not changing his terrible physical pool.

    Another thing is he still has a cool 120 SATK stat. If 95 Speed is so "unusable" in this meta, you may as well just click Brave and invest enough ATK to reach Haxorous tiers of carnage and then fully invest his SATK to soften switch-ins with Ice Beam/Earth Power. If you're going to go that route you may as well just be using regular Kyurem though since he doesn't want to do a lot of switching in and out with that SR weakness.

    People seem to be looking at Kyu-B from one angle (252/252 attack/speed, click outrage, get revenged) and I dunno, I think it just has other things it can do? It's just a lot of them are outclassed by other things if you don't want to worry about that bulk investment stuff.


    I'm kind of saddened, every time I want to consider trying out B/W I see discussions like this and it scares me away. A lot of my favorites are low OU and would get smashed to pieces by the current meta.
  12. STEELDRAGON

    STEELDRAGON

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    453
    Kyurem-B @ Salac Berry
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    - Substitute
    - Hone Claws
    - Outrage
    - Fusion Bolt

    This set I have found to be very useful in the current metagame. You can set up on weak scalds/resisted moves, and it becomes very powerful, you should be to get to at least +1/+1, and then smack around many of your faster pokemon. It still has problems with scarfers, and Priority moves though. Anything that can't break your sub, be set up bait, and have to deal with a very powerful hit. Outrage+FB will hit most pokemon for neutral damage, ferrothorn will be a bitch though if it has Gyro Ball.

    I also want to test out a bulky set, 125/100/90 defenses are very impressive, Dragon/Ice may not be very good defensive typing but it will easily be able to take most moves that aren't SE. Roost/Sub/Dragon Tail/Light Screen or Hone Claws or something like that. I feel like it could be a Special tank, easily taking Hydro Pumps and Thunders with ease.

    I feel like testing Kyurem-B is a good idea because it after a few days, it just overrated, not ubers material, but it does have a niche of easily slaying Skarmory/Water types, and being very bulky, which many other dragons can't pull off on the physical side of things.
  13. peng

    peng

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    470
    [00:04] penguinx: what is the point of suspect
    [00:04] penguinx: is it to get a meta where every unbroken pokemon is allowed in ou
    [00:04] penguinx: or is it to get a favourable metagame?
    [00:05] penguinx: because they are both very different and this seems to be where every argument revolving around suspect starts
  14. Olijolly

    Olijolly

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    162
    I always believed it was to get a metagame where every unbroken pokemon is allowed to be used whether the metagame enjoyable or not.
  15. flea

    flea

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    43
    As much as I like seeing all the discussion about the metagame here, and how discussion regarding a new, powerful, thread will undoubtedly lead to these things being brought up, this is the thread regarding Kyurem-B's suspect test, is it not?

    A legitimate argument to ban Kyurem-B cannot be made based on changes to the metagame that you think will happen later (in this case, Genesect, Tornadus-T, Terrakion being banished to ubers). The question here on this thread is not whether the metagame should take its foot off the offensive gas by removing some of the big threats that kill stall, but whether Kyurem-B is broken in the current metagame.

    In short, I think statements like "It's not broken in today's metagame, but it wouldn't be broken in a metagame that doesn't suck" are really out-of-place in this thread and aren't really usable criteria for banning Kyurem-B at all. Maybe Kyurem-B would be broken in a metagame without Genesect, Politoed, Tornadus-T, Deoxys-D, Terrakion, etc. But that is not the purpose of this thread- those changes have to be made separately. It is not broken in this metagame. I think people who would rather attempt to revive a playstyle that's been effectively dead for 2 years should probably turn their attention elsewhere.
  16. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex This game sucks. Ban everything and it might not.

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    567
    I think a clear, concise definition on what the purpose of suspect testing is would be useful in determining Kyurem-B's placement. If the intent of suspect testing is "to create a healthy metagame," then Kyurem-B, by this definition, should not be introduced into OU. There's absolutely nothing positive that Kyurem-B is going to add to this metagame. It doesn't alleviate pressure from any of the really powerful threats that exist right now and won't create more diversity in the tier. If the purpose of suspect testing is "to allow every pokemon that isn't utterly broken in OU," then, by this definition, there's no reason not to test Kyurem-B. As long as someone could find a legitimate reason not to add X pokemon to their team, it isn't utterly broken, yes?

    I concede that the topic has veered from being solely about Kyurem-B, but I find it laughable that you say stall has been dead for 2 years. Have you actually been playing in the last two years?
  17. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    955
    Played only a couple of games so far (like 15 I believe) and in that limited amount of games Kyurem-B did not appear to be broken at all. Besides Outrage (and the rare Freeze Shock or whatever that move is called) I found him pretty weak (yes I know 170 Base attack and stuff), and it was pretty hard for him to switch in with the U-Turn/Volt Switch, SR, SE moves being thrown around. Pretty sad that a Pokemon with 700 BST can be so underwhelming. Then again it is pretty early to fully determine anything yet.

    Besides the Kyurem-B spam what have you guys noticed in the metagame?


    Seems like Deoxys-D with 3/4 Dragons and a Magnezone is a very popular team choice at the moment. And I'm still seeing that weird ass Focus Sash Terrakion set.
  18. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,562
    Here's some clarification:
    • Kyurem-B is being tested right now, because PO has tested Kyurem-B in their OU. As the most competitive online Pokemon community, we had to test Kyurem-B, too, lest we leave Kyu-B's designation to theorymon (ie not so competitive). Rest assured, we wont start bringing down Reshiram and Zekrom, because the councilmen are smart people, so RELAX
    • Defining what makes a healthy metagame is a straight-forward answer. It's a metagame that is diverse and not stiflingly centralized. If Kyurem-B is making your past teams unviable, then that's a proof of its major influence to the metagame, and may be considered as a negative centralizing & restrictive force. This is a rational reason to scrutinize Kyurem-B's role in OU and decide to ban it or not. "Kyurem-B is unimpressive, but I don't want another offensive mon in the meta." is NOT a reason to ban a Pokemon
    • Stall, or any playstyle, is NOT prioritized over other team archetypes. We wont start "balancing" the metagame, just because stall or defensive teams are harder to build (but still possible, as I have found out myself).
    I hope most concerns have been answered. If you still have more policy questions, please PM the OU council members (Aldaron, iconic, Bloo, JabbatheGriffin, and Haunter). Below this post, only responses concerning Kyurem-B and the suspect ladder metagame are allowed (all other posts would be deleted & infracted).
  19. Haruno

    Haruno

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,893
    So am I the only person that thinks kyurem-b has much more potential when it gets baton passed a speed/attack boost? Since a +2 Atk kyurem-b wrecks the whole tier with outrage and/or fusion bolt from what i've seen it certainly seems viable to say the least.
  20. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,109
    Every Pokémon gets better when you BP +2 or +3 boosts. I used a Smash Pass Nidoking once to decent effect. The problem is typically passing those boosts.

    And like Garchomp, I've found Kyurem-B to be underwhelming. He never did much on my teams (too slow) and he got a few KOs against me, but that's it. 170 Attack being thrown around is incredible, but he can't switch in against anything but a dedicated wall, and those are few and far between enough that he's not doing much except on revenges. But of course, the metagame is so fast and so furious that even if he does switch in (say against standard Scarfsect), he's getting either knocked on his ass immediately or juked into something that breaks him in two.
  21. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,924
    I didn't mention the ban or unban of Kyurem in my post at all when I talked about him. Why? Because I assumed he would be unbanned right from the start. His job in OU is the same as other Dragons, but somewhat harder due to his movepool, speed, and typing. Those things aside he is still both hard to wall and kill in one go, so it's going to have an effect on defense (which frankly can't do shit about any kind of Sub Kyurem). We have been talking about this before Kyurem-B, and it's clearly not going to get better with his unban.

    Is the phasing out of defense bad for OU? As a primarily offensive player, my point of view is pretty biased on the matter, but I can see why stall players would want to complain. Like I've said before, Kyurem-B is not the start of a new world order, but an establishment.
  22. bubbly

    bubbly

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    883
    Okey, so they deleted my post because I talked about future tests - so I'm going to do it again, but in a less blatant way. Basically, the gist of it was, the easiest way to do this is let Kyu in now because in the current meta its obviously not broken and then retest later once we've got rid of other stuff.

    Back to Kyu-B discussion; the only set I've found impressive so far is the mixed Substitute set, similar to regular Kyu which works best using SubRoost. It really has its niche in setting up on Waters / Grasses / Electrics and screws over the omnipresent revenge killers.
  23. Ithilanor

    Ithilanor

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    240
    What EV spread are you using? I'm sure you don't need full investment in Atk, and it's nice to have some amount of SpA EVs so Ice Beam actually hits decently hard, but I don't know what important KOs you want and how many Atk EVs can be spared.
  24. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,987
    Would you mind spilling the beans one what your stall team looks like? I have tried many itterations of stall teams, with all sorts of defensive cores, and I haven't found them to be effective at all in this metagame. If you have found a successful full stall team core, it would be a great discovery to share.
  25. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,562
    It's not a full stall team - only a more defensive team that utilizes Landorus-T, defensive Starmie, specially defensive Rotom-H, and physically-defensive Jirachi as its core. I also have Kyurem-B, which is not stally by any means, but can tank Water hits with relative ease. Props to Aldaron who shared Samet's team, where I borrowed a significant portion of my core.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)