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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Aldaron, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    Actually I've gone nine rounds with bloo's mum before but that's another matter.

    Round 7 saw Kyurem-B brought down to OU.

    Round 8 will see us test Genesect.

    Qualifying will be a little different this time. You'll have to qualify on two ladders; one with Genesect, and one without. However, because it is 2 ladders, the deviation requirement has been lowered (number wise, raised). Now, it is 2000 +- 65 on both the OU (Current) and the OU (Suspect Test) ladders. Take a screenshot whenever you reach these requirements anyways just in case something crazy like a DDoS attack happens again.

    There is a very important point I want all of you to focus on: do not vote / post about "liking x metagame better." That isn't the purpose of our tests...the purpose is finding out whether or not Genesect is broken, which is why, in special applications, we'll probably emphasize the ladder that has it included. The ladder without it is for you to better grasp the context of the metagame and see firsthand what happens when it is gone and from this, more completely understand what about its overall presence broke the metagame...not to use as evidence of a subjectively preferable metagame. We're going to be pretty stringent about this, so if you start posting anything like this...expect Haunter to spank you, viciously. I haven't confirmed from all the council members about this yet, but I am strongly considering requiring paragraphs for this round to make sure people are voting for the right reasons.

    Anyway, as always, here is a nice bullet point schedule!
    • Monday, November 12th: Suspect Ladder has been reset and Genesect is unbanned from the ladder, along with OU ladder ratings being saved and a new OU ladder put in for the duration of the test (thanks to Zarel for setting this up!).
    • Friday, November 30th at 11:59 p.m. EST: The Suspect Round ends. A screenshot of both the ladders will be posted at that time in the Voter Identification thread.
    • Sunday, December 2nd at 11:59 p.m. EST: Special applications are due, and the voting thread will be posted. It will most likely be up for around three days.
    Have fun friends!

    Iconic will surely edit this with a more fun title / post when he wakes up, but in the meanwhile, this is what you get :P

    GS EDIT: A note on Download's mechanics

    There are a few small quirks to how Download works that not everyone might be aware of. Download uses the current Defense and Special Defense of the opponent, and if they are equal, it boosts Special Attack. Note especially that it applies to current defensive stats. Therefore, if a 4 SpD Terrakion (which has 216 Defense and 217 Special Defense) uses Close Combat twice and gets -2 in both defensive stats, and then Genesect switches in, Special Attack will be boosted, since -2 halves the stat, and half of 217 is rounded down. Download also considers the sandstorm Special Defense boost for Rock-types, since that is applied directly to the stat.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I was gonna post this on October's Usage Stat thread, but this is a more appropriate place ;)

    Genesect certainly shook our current BW meta. It's essentially an improved version of Scarf Rotom-W, revenging more threats than the former with free +1 offense boosts to pack a punch despite being scarfed.

    I am singling out Scarf Genesect, because imo it's the best set that help shape the current metagame it is now. RP Genesect is certainly a dangerous threat, but RP Landorus and even Thundurus-T arguably perform better (although Genesect is less prone to priority revenge kills, it's still cock-blocked by more walls). EB Genesect is particularly potent, even more threatening than EB Landorus-I back in BW1, but Genesect really appreciates the Speed granted by Scarf for a quick pivot / revenge-kill.

    Even Scarf Genesect is not perfect, despite the many attractive qualities. It's inconvenient speed comes back to bite it in its ass, as it falls short in checking DDmence and QD Volcarona. This usually more often than not forces the opponent to run another scarfer just to be able to check such threats. Genesect is also "not untouchable" at all, as faster Scarfers such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Garchomp nails it hard and fast. Yes, Genesect can "simply U-turn out," but just like any other Volt-Turn Pokemon, hazard damage quickly add up, so getting hazards down early is crucial in defeating Genesect.
  3. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    I disagree with Rock Polish Genesect having competition with anything.

    If both the OU suspect ladder and my recent streak of laddering taught me anything, it's that unless you have a Fight Gem Breloom in the wings, +1 Rock Polish Genesect WILL win you the game. Most of my opponents using it were pretty brain dead too; they'll set up on shit they don't even force out just to hope the attack I use doesn't KO or I miss. If either one of those things happens, they still win.

    You can't even scout his moves in order to decide what to revenge him with. "Oh, does he have Giga Drain? Please don't have Giga Drain." *Gastrodon dies* OK, gg.

    Btw. Getting hazards in early to beat Genesect? How. He just starts the match off and kills whatever is trying to set up. TTar, Forry, Ferro, you name it. Remember that Tanga Berry Deo-D we included JUST for Genesect? He can just U-turn straight into Keldeo and keep you from ever getting more than one layer.
  4. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    Have to strongly agree with that SJ.

    While Scarf Genesect was, and still is, considered by many the best set, I think the RP set is by far its most threatening set. As SJ said give RP Genesect a chance to set up, and you will generally win. The list of things that counter it varies depending on its coverage, however to be safe the only things you can count on to wall it are Blissey, Chansey and Heatran. I only really started seeing the set out about three weeks ago, but after Garythegenger & CTC released their team in the RMT hub, I have seen its usage explode. Personally I haven't had too much trouble with it, but if you let it get set up whilst your in a bad position, that will be the game. Scarf is powerful, but RP is cataclysmic.
  5. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    @EvireRocks: I'm still fairly astonished that no one brings up +1 Thunder when discussing Heatran as a counter.

    Modest Scarf does a lot of damage: 36.5% - 43%

    It's still a counter in the technical sense, but if this is the best we can do, I'm skeptical, to say the least.
  6. MikeDecIsHere

    MikeDecIsHere And the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate.
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    Yah, Scarf is actually its worst set imo, which really says how terrifying Genesect is. LO RP is a freaking monster. You know something is a freaking metagame smasher when EVERY pokemon minus physical walls runs 4 random SpD EVs just so Gene doesn't get the SpA Boost x.x
  7. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Idk, RP Genesect hasn't swept me yet, so it doesn't bother me that much. Scarf Genesect, in the other hand, is probably the main reason why DDNite and DDHaxorus has dropped in usage. RP Genesect does pair well with RP Landorus-I, though, annihilating each other's checks :d
  8. CactusCacti

    CactusCacti

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    I'll toss my few cents on the matter even though I'm not the most serious of OU player;

    Genesect feels bit broken in OU, cause really, it's just way too damn hard to be able to just get to stay down mid game and in the final sweeps, his coverage moves is just, overwhelming.
    If it only didn't have download.. I'd guess sure, he'd be alright.

    It also gives a rather odd problem that our landshark dragon friend had;

    Even though genesect is powerful in OU, his damage output is questionable in uber standart. yes, "lol ubers".

    Honestly? I'd hate him to stay in OU, but at the same time I kinda fear if he would stay in a limbo state if he'd be banished. Genesect's still a very neat mon.
  9. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
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    What a catchy title, Aldaron :) Have fun everyone and, please, do not discuss other potential suspects in this thread. Off-topic posts will be deleted and infracted.
  10. superbadd

    superbadd

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    Finally, time to get rid of that fucking nuisance.

    It puts way too much pressure on team building.

    Maybe stuff like hydreigon can be good again?
  11. Nyara

    Nyara

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    He's like an improved version of Scizor, and Scizor is actually one of most used and winners from the current Metagame, so, that's tell about how broken Genesect is. Also, he's still used somewhat on ubers (8%), already, so, he'll don't gonna go to a limbo or something like that, and yeah, that's tell MORE about how broken Genesect is, because he's a perfectly viable option on ubers. Also, the usual talk about Ubers are: Pokémon with huge BST OR being able to sweep or stall with outstanding power, and Genesect actually, is only weak to the fire (rarely on OU or ubers), have legendary offensive stats and somewhat same resistance to attacks as Arceus (thanks to it's typing), and at difference from others ubers, he have a somewhat powerful ability to make up from it's 80 less of BST.

    In other words, Genesect is pretty obvious it form part from ubers, and it's over usage and usually over win ratio from all the other options of OU talks pretty well about it. But well, that's just my opinion, at least.
  12. malomyotismon

    malomyotismon

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    By ou standards genesect is as close as we have ever seen to a perfect special attacker, with he added bonus of stab, potentially boosted u turn off base 120 attacking stats. Ice beam, thunderbolt, and flamethrower give incredible coverage and add his special attack of 120 and the likely hood of him getting a special attack boost for free, he is going to likely hit hit and hit super effective. Steel/bug is very good typing defensively with only a single weakness, removed to 2x in the rain and 71/95/95 are better than scizors overall so he is bulky.

    He has the specially offensive movepool of mewtwo, the attacking stats of arceus, the typing of scizor and fortress, defence of scizor but in both defences and the speed (nearly) of mast base 100 pokemon. He takes the traits of each and improves appon it, he has better offences than mew and more solid typing, unlike salamence ( don't want to compare him to arceus) he has dowload a solid special move pool and u turn spam and no Sr weakness and is much harder to revenge (looking at you mamoswine), steel/bug 4x weakness to fire meh, whats that? 10 resistances? Yes please and whats that your decently bulky? 99 speed? Awwwww, no one is perfect.

    Gene is A.M.A.Z.I.N.G and it's no wonder there is question to it's stance in ou with so many things going for it in a metagame with so many pokemon it can check counter that would normally take up more than one slot. Revenge killer sweeper o shock choice user, gene is a jack of trades and master of everything it can do. I think like chomp before him his ability download is the straw that broke the camels back and has pro bally condemned gene to a tier, where down load and it's attacking stats don't matter as much.
  13. Hiphopanonymous

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    I've honestly had no problems with Genesect. It's incredibly predictable, and usually a switch to Garchomp or Ferrothorn seems to heavily discourage U-turn usage (Rocky Helmet or not). Toting a Blissey around helps as well, seeing as even WITH +1 Sp Atk it's still not doing anything above tickling the pink blob. I see it on a lot of rain teams, generally with Giga Drain, and very rarely Thunder. All in all, so far, it's easy to play around, especially with hazards up on their side of the field, and it'll usually drop pretty early in the match. I don't really use it, I tried, and failed pretty badly. Might go give it another whirl, and edit this later to include my observations.
  14. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    A mon with a perfect typing to resist most priorities, 120 Atk/SpA, his most used set consisting of having two choice items without setting up (Scarf + psuedo choice item depending on download boost), yeah, he doesn't belong here.
  15. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Finally this thing gets tested! I've been waiting so long! Anyways, I'm agreeing with a few on here saying the Choice Scarf Genesect isn't the problem, its RP Genesect. Makes me wonder if we would even be having this OU suspect test if Genesect didn't learn RP. Nevertheless, I'm going to miss using my Scarfed Genesect if it goes away, however not seeing Genesect 50% of the time wrecking even my Heatran would be nice.
  16. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Damn son, where'd ya find this?
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    Genesect is the perfect pokemon.

    Remember what 4th gen did? It introduced Stealth Rock, something that is still so vital to teambuilding that your team cannot do without it. 5th generation brought weather, and now BW2 brought genesect. Genesect is so good that literally every team benefits from it. If you don't have a genesect, your team is pretty much inferior. So, genesect = BW2 stealth rock? I think there's a comparison to be made. However, unlike stealth rock, you can't just "spin away" genesect. It has one viable "counter" in heatran, but even that can be destroyed by HP ground or as others have said, thunder. Is gastrodon a counter to Thundurus-T? Well, if more people ran HP ground, heatran wouldn't be considered a counter either. The fact that after you switch in heatran genesect can just decide to leave with zero consequences doesn't even make it a counter in my mind. On a power standpoint, 120 offenses and 99 speed give it everything it needs. It has the potential to go over 800 in offenses just by switching in. All of the special walls that tank its moves? Say hello to U-turn and dugtrio. Dugtrio is not the enemy here, but the fact that genesect gets a chance to bring it in easily changes things.

    Also, when the first thing it says about genesect is to get hazards down, you know you have a problem. Listing entry hazards as the first way to beat a non-SR weak pokemon just speaks a lot to me.
  17. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I don't think that you really need to do a team with Genesect. It's perfectly possible to do so, but the problem is: There is no reason not to use Genesect. I can't imagine a team that doesn't benefit from using it; even stall does so (don't ask me why, as I don't play stall, I saw someone saying that even stall benefits from using Genesect, I am just posting that here). It's only real flaw is that 99 base speed. Oh god. You are just outpaced by one point, ONE POINT! by many threats that Genesect could otherwise easily defeat, such as +1 DD/Scarf Salamence.

    But that doesn't prevent Genesect from overcentralizing the metagame. The fact that people started to lower IVs on their Hippowdon, Garchomp and Tornadus-T to simply avoid giving Genesect an Special Attack boost made me start to agree that Genesect is broken. The fact that people started to say that Hippowdon is a better sandstorm inducer than Tyranitar made me start to agree that Genesect is broken. The fact that people started to use Shed Shell Heatran made me start to agree that Genesect is broken. Genesect made many changes to the metagame that had a negative impact on it, forcing people to do/say things that they wouldn't do/say otherwise. So I agree that Genesect gone is a favor that we are going to do to the metagame.

    About its sets, many people say that Choice Scarf Genesect is its best set. I disagree. What happens is that Genesect is the easiest Scarfer to fit on teams; it can fit on pretty much any team. Other Scarfers don't even have the same level of versatility. Landorus-I requires sandstorm to be a good revenge killer; Thundurus-T has problems revenge killing some things such as Volcarona; Tyranitar is outpaced by many things even with Choice Scarf; Heatran requires sun to function best; Jirachi, which is the Pokémon that I think that cames the closest to Scarf Genesect, doesn't have the same raw power, don't have STAB on U-Turn and still fails to always outpace +1 DD/Scarf Salamence.

    Still, there are many other, much more threatening sets, that make much better use of Genesect's potential. Apart from the aforementioned Rock Polish, Expert Belt catches your opponent on surprise; they don't see that coming until they lose a Pokémon by surprise. Choice Band is underrated, but it's extremely powerful. Not even resists want to take a +1 Choice Band-boosted U-Turn.

    OBS: To those that mentioned Ubers; Genesect is not nearly as good in Ubers as it is on OU.
  18. Eclypse

    Eclypse

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    Because I knew round 8 would be a momentous one, I have used all the Genesect sets extensively. I prefer the Scarf variant for its ability to force switches and gain momentum, but easily the most powerful of all (with surprisingly little support necessary) is the Rock Polish Genesect. Now, I wanted to see just how broken RP Genesect really was. So, without really even trying, I laddered up to almost 1500 on PO just by removing anything that resists Flamethrower / Ice Beam / Giga Drain (so, Heatran, if they even have one) forcing a switch, Rock Polishing, and sweeping. It was sheer predation on teams that weren't prepared for it or were unable to play around it. I even started feeling bad for abusing this strategy because there is so little margin for error on your opponent's side to scout your moveset.

    Its absurd usage statistics alone are enough to make Genesect suspect. Its versatility of roles, the ability of good players to keep it unpredictable, and the stark margin of error necessary to play against it only compound the problem. However, what throws me over the top for Genesect's removal is what was already posted by Dark Fallen Angel: When a Pokemon requires EV manipulation down to the point or, worse, the lowering of certain IVs just because you know you are going to run into it so often, it is broken. It's just making the game... weird. People lose matches because they didn't invest those last 4 EVs correctly; Garchomps run 11 Defense IVs to have a shot at set-up. It disadvantages you to have such an odd Garchomp set in any other match-up, but because Genesect is everywhere you HAVE to run it.

    The metagame benefits so much from seeing Genesect go. While I have a penchant for using offense regardless, even I can admit that stall and even balanced are so sorely disadvantaged right now. Admittedly, removing Genesect won't immediately solve all of our problems, but it is without a doubt a step in the right direction for a much healthier BW2 metagame.
  19. DrDLO

    DrDLO

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    I know Genesect is very powerful, but I don't know if it's necessarily Uber-worthy (or, rather, Non-OU). It has solid counters ( or checks if it gets the correct boost beforehand) in two very OU pokemon: Volcarona and Terrakion

    I did a few calcs:
    Show Hide

    For Volcarona I used flamethrower since it's the highest bp of any move common Genesects would use on it. Since Volcarona has higher SDef I'm not including the +SAtk boost. Also lefties are not included, nor are SR

    Scarf Set
    252SpAtk Genesect (Neutral) Flamethrower vs 4HP/0SpDef Volcarona (Neutral): 30% - 35% (94 - 111 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    252SpAtk Genesect (+SAtk) Flamethrower vs 0HP/4SpDef Volcarona (Neutral): 33% - 39% (103 - 122 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    RP Set W/LO:
    252SpAtk Life Orb Genesect (+SAtk) Flamethrower vs 4HP/0SpDef Volcarona (Neutral): 42% - 50% (133 - 158 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 2% chance to 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Genesect (Neutral) Flamethrower vs 4HP/0SpDef Volcarona (Neutral): 39% - 46% (122 - 144 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    For Terrakion I used Ice Beam, did not include +SpA boost, SR or sandstorm:
    Scarf Set:
    252SpAtk Genesect (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 4HP/SpDef Terrakion (Neutral): 33% - 39% (107 - 127 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    252SpAtk Genesect (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 4HP/SpDef Terrakion (Neutral): 36% - 42% (118 - 139 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    RP/LO Set:
    252SpAtk Life Orb Genesect (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 4HP/SpDef Terrakion (Neutral): 42% - 50% (139 - 165 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 3% chance to 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Genesect (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 4HP/SpDef Terrakion (Neutral): 47% - 55% (153 - 180 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 17% chance to 2HKO.


    Basically: While the situations vary, genesect still has two soild check/counters in OU

    Edit: If I missed any calcs or messed any up I apologize. I know there are a lot of situation variables, but I choose the most common ones for simplicity.
  20. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Genesect: I'm bad and that's good. I will never be good and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

    Those requirements are pretty steep, but it makes sense considering how important of a suspect Genesect is. You could say that this suspect test will be the single most important test in Smogon history, because the metagame is going to change drastically depending on either outcome. My gut tells me that Genesect will get the boot; It will be tender and deferential, like a pauper kissing a noble's ring.

    On topic: All of Genesect's sets are pretty cool. I know RP is getting its due hype, but it's other sets work too (team dependant obviously). It'll be a battle of the Genesects, may the best Genesect player win :o
  21. jrp

    jrp wanker of the highest order

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    Usage in ubers has nothing to do with ou.
    Parasect had a niche in ubers and it's nu
  22. nyttyn

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    I might be parroting what everyone else is saying here, but I really think Genesect is going to get and should get das boot. His amazing typing, great bulk, absurd movepool -lol boltbeam-, wonderful attacking stats, passable speed, and great ability all combine to make one monster of a pokemon that is, hands down, far too good for OverUsed and completely centralizes the meta. It's so good that valid, legitimate team advice for almost every team is "Add Genesect."

    That, to me, screams that something is wrong.
  23. Machi

    Machi

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    That and its an entirely different metagame so I'm not sure why people are so damned concerned whether a mon being banned from OU shines or not in UBER because that was never for consideration in any tiering, this has been repeated so many times already surprised people keep bringing this up. Back on topic I'm with PK in that Genesect's set whether scarf or RP are all perfectly viable it simply comes down to a matter of team building. The problem of course is that as Dark Fallen Angel has noted he pretty much fits into any team by merit of his typing + stats + ability its not surprising to see that he had such a freakishly high usage in the OU suspect stats since he pretty much could fill multiple roles and needed to be prepared for (which actually was somewhat easier for Gene in the suspect ladder since suspect ladders were geared towards checking or using the suspect mon and finding viable counters or checks so that left teams open for Gene who ended up being more noticeably dangerous).
  24. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Genesect is not broken by itself, but the strategies that it can start are broken. Think about the Genesun, Genesect just u-turns on its check and then dugtrio easily traps them. Think about Genesect+tornadus+dugtrio, its the same thing, Genesect gives you the advantage to trap anything that gives you problem, and then you cant do anything to win. The fact that anyone prefer Sp def hippo instead of tyranitar, or the fact that Shed shell Heatran is increasing in usage should make you think a lot. Im not saying that genesect can sweep you with a boost like Salamence or terrakion can do, but just that it changed our buildings. For example, bug-weak pokemon like celebi that were in the top 10, now are not used anymore, unless they have t-wave and hp fire just to bait genesect. Scarf jirachi with fire punch is getting common, just to bait genesect. Even things like Latios prefer the choice scarf with hp fire to bait that insect, indeed scarf latios has now 20% of usage.
  25. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Personally I would've prefered to see Excadrill tested because without thoroughly examining all options before potential bans take place, you never quite know how a certain suspect would perform had all those in question been legal in OU.

    I've always said ScarfSect is vastly overrated and used it literally five times myself at the most. I'd take Rock Polish/Specs/Band/Sash before the Scarf set as there just so many faster Scarfers available (hell, even outsped by CSMence).

    Anyway, it's the best Pokemon in Standard OU and if anything should get tested before looking at Uber Pokemon which we wish to see in OU someday, it's definitely Genesect.
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