np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)

[Goutland]

Competitive Pokemon isn't about having fun? I think that's pretty wrong; of course it's about having fun. You wouldn't be playing if it wasn't fun.

Now, when deciding the rules, it's about fairness and balance. I'm fairly sure most people want Genesect gone (myself included), but my question is, on what basis would the ban be given? Would it be a fair ban? If you consider any one Genesect set, obviously it's not broken, but as a whole, it overcentralizes the metagame by consistently being very powerful and unpredictable whether it's scarf, band, RP, expert belt, and hell, even physical scarf. It's pretty much the premier offensive threat, as if you consider every set as a whole, it has almost no counters.

It's almost like playing without team preview for that one slot, because you never know if your checks or counters are true ones, as it depends on the set. Your opponent can tailor their team specifically to get rid of their Genesect's checks, but you cannot tailor your team to get rid of every single Genesect set reliably without being forced to use a certain subset of pokemon. Since most people are afraid of the RP set and EV their pokemon to give Genesect the attack boost, it might even be viable to sweep with choice scarf iron head or physical RP (lol that'd probably be shitty) after eliminating its checks.

My argument supports the "too versatile" one, which seems like a bad reason to ban, but one pokemon being extremely versatile and consistently very powerful overcentralizes the metagame even if it's not broken. I thought the purpose of tiers was to make as many pokemon as possible competitively viable, but Genesect really just does the opposite. I'm pretty much on the fence about it.

 

[Tressed]

uhhhhh.... if you're playing Pokemon for the sole purpose of winning, then try not to be offended, but you need to get a life. It's supposed to be fun. Who the hell takes pokemon that seriously? This isn't a debate about war, lol. The purpose of banning revolves around several aspects, one of the more important ones is if x has a negative impact on the metagame. For what it's worth, it seems that most people agree, that while genesect is not necessarily broken, it's impact on the metagame certainly shouldn't be over looked.

Lol, hell no, I'm not taking Pokemon Battles that seriously. I love goofing around on PS for fun.
I am, however, trying to look at this from a competitive point of view, since this is a suspect test, and I do think that Genesect has a negative effect on this meta. I do think that having balanced metagame is strongly related to a fun metagame, and I don't think that Genesect is part of the former, for reasons I've stated before, so I will look at this from a competitive viewpoint.

uh, this turned into a rant really quick, so I'll just put this here about how I feel about Genesect and fun.

Hide

Look, I love playing with Genesect, but I hate playing against him, simply because he can threaten so much. It turns teambuilding (which I love to do, usually) into "I want to use this with th- oh, wait, Genesect can just force me out again. Guess I can't do that." And its true, things have become unviable or incredibly less viable simply because of a single Pokemon, to the point where Pokemon weak to bug attacks are seen less than ever, and Pokemon weak to a signature coverage move are considered liabilities. I'll be honest, I can't play Pokemon for fun anymore because of Genesect, because it isn't fun to play against at all.

 

[JacobNinja]

Genesect is just absolutely broken. Forgive me if I am overdramatizing, but the points need to be said.

Self-Abilities
Trying to predict Genesect is like trying to play Simon Say's blind. Genesect has an absolutely expansive movepool that allows it to practically counter everything in OU. Ice Beam? Flamethrower? Thunderbolt? Bug Buzz? Giga Drain? Genesect has those moves and MORE. Even more frustrating is that every single strategy revolving around Genesect is to the verge of "flawless," (again, may be over-exaggerating) in particular: RP. To say Download is terrible for the thing is like saying Magic Guard is one of the worst abilities; Download works frighteningly well with Genesect. To say Genesect is not broken by itself is a dreadful, horrible understatement. In reality, the team with Genesect will almost always have a huge advantage considering its movepool, abilities, and movesets. Alone or with help, it is broken.

Partners
Take a stab at who is Genesect's most common partner...Should be obvious. Politoed's Drizzle causes that only key to defeating it, the x4 weakness to Fire-types, to be thrown out of the window. In Rain, it is almost guaranteed that you will have to death-fodder a few Pokemon in order to finally get rid of it. It does not help that the only real check to Genesect (Heatran) can be trapped and KOed by Dugtrio. Genesect with the right partners and setup is absolutely agonizing to face. Not only that, but the setup is quite easy to pull off. An easy and sure-fire way to beat most of the Pokemon in the metagame and that is not considered "broken to some?" Hm...

Effects on Metagame
I feared Garchomp going to OU because I thought it would centralize the metagame upon itself. Boy was I wrong...

What I am sure about is that the metagame will shift into countering Genesect if it is still allowed in OU. The proof? How about that >50% usage in October? The usage will simply rise as more people realize how devastatingly broke Genesect is in OU. Not only that, but Genesect causes Rain to become more overpowered and near-broken with Genesect. Genesect can make up for almost all of the traditional rain team members' short-comings with its movepools and movesets; which in turn may result in anything else becoming obsolete and useless (again, overexaggerating here).

Conclusion
The facts show that Genesect is indeed broken from a statistical viewpoint and a visual viewpoint (with the ladder pictures and such). Genesect has a movepool that murders almost the entire OU tier, bar Heatran and maybe Blissey/Chansey. It has support that practically erases its weaknesses. I pray to Arceus that this abomination may be sent to Ubers so that it may recieve Judgment...

Don't you play simon says by listening?

 

[Gary]

Competitive Pokemon isn't supposed to be fun, per say. Its about winning. And I know that we have to ask why we're playing this if not for fun. But in this kind of environment, we have to ask ourselves this question from a competitive point, not an amusement one. We don't ban something because its no fun to play against, we ban it because its broken and is far too powerful for this metagame.
Ever been on the receiving end of a Volcarona sweep? I can tell you, that's not fun. But Volcarona isn't broken because it has things that can stop it cold, and it needs support. Genesect doesn't need as much support as Volcarona, which means that unless you have an insane weakness to Fire on your team, Genesect can fit in and be effective, regardless of what kind of team it is. Well, almost any team, but apart from stacking on too many weaknesses, I can't think of a real reason not to put Gene in the lineup. That is why Genesect needs to get out, it fits almost anywhere, fills a ton of roles, and dominates teams that lack ways to check/counter all of the different things he can do.

I agree with all of your statements, but the whole idea of competitive battling is for fun! Sports are the same way, I wouldn't play sports if I didn't think they were fun. I love playing sports, but I love winning as well. Same goes with competitive Pokemon. The more you build teams the more experienced you get. The more experience you get, the more battles you win. The more battles you win, the more fun you have. The more fun you have, the more you want to battle. If competitive battling wasn't fun to me, then I would definitely NOT do it. Team building is indeed very stressful to create the perfect core team that not only succeeds, but feels right for you to use. That in itself would steer me away if all I thought was winning all the time. However, team building is very fun, and I especially love it when I build a team around a certain Pokemon. Right now I'm making a team that is built around Raikou, and my goal is for Raikou to have great synergy with the rest of the team so he can clean up late game. Now to me, that's fun. When everything finally clicks. I hate generic teams, because they lack originality, and also lack any sort of challenge. Pokemon isn't Pokemon without a challenge. After Lavos Spawn made his Genetrio team, I don't know why so many people used it. Sure, it won a lot, but what's the fun in that? Winning using someone else's work is not fun to me at all. Same goes with Hurricane spam on weather teams. Raikou is a UU Pokemon that I rarely see in OU, so building a successful team that can use Raikou just as if it were OU worthy, makes it all worth the while. I've found going into a battle not thinking too much wins me more battles. Sure I have to put my game face on, but over thinking leads to misclicks, bad predictions etc etc.

Moral of the story, just have fun, and you'll be rewarded! Never say that competitive battling isn't supposed to be fun, because it's the main reason 95% of us all still play Pokemon. If all I wanted was to win, then I would never play Pokemon. I don't know about you, but losing at times can be more fun then winning too. If I lose a great battle against a great player, I'm happy. Why? Because now I know what I exactly need to do to fix up my team in order to keep me from losing. I get smarter each time I lose. I've improved so much since I started on this site, to the point where I actually see people laddering using my teams! It's such a great feeling. All that came with MANY losses. However, even after saying all that, it's still your opinion and I respect that.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Don't you play simon says by listening?

I mean that little electronic game. Like the little circle with the four colors on it.

 

[Deluks917]

Since the test is basically over and I don't know how to vote (I have reqs) does anyone have an argument for why I should vote one way or the other?

 

[zzazzdsa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_(game)

you got the name wrong, fellas.

Well, as far as Genesect being broken, I'm going to say no. Sure, it can run a ton of sets, but honestly, it has enough counters and half-counters to keep any non-braindead person from not losing immediately to it. Seriously, the Rock Polish set is like SubSD terrakion was in BW1: let it set up and it rapes you, but play around it with clever switches and it can't do much. Sure, you cant revenge RPsect easily at all, but unlike terrakion, things can wall +1 genesect (any fire type in OU, the blobs, tentacruel for non-tbolters, rotom-w can take a hit and twave, terrakion in sand is a solid check, etc). Scarf is annoying, yes, but honestly, its really BW2's version of VolTurn, and its really not that bad if you play around it in the same way. Sash is similar to this, except you trade the ability to outspeed stuff for the ability to swap moves and take a hit; its very good, but any battler worth their salt will have a counter to it and beat it the same way as scarf. This leaves...nothing. Yes, Genesect has a total of 3 "good" sets; far fewer than even one-dimensional poke such as Politoed. (Band sucks people, dont use it -.-) And its not even as common as people say; its hovering around the 20% mark in OUcurrent; fucking ferrothorn was higher at points of BW1. So in conclusion, Genesect isn't broken, its not centralizing, and it shouldn't be banned.

 

[Organization Member XIV]

Here's my opinion. Even though I didn't ladder, I have used Genesect for a while, and I don't feel that he is OP, especially not Uber. Chansey walls any set lacking U-Turn, and can even get a surprise kill with Counter if the Genesect does use U-Turn. Also, Heatran hard walls Genesect lacking HP Ground. And don't give me the argument, you have to sack a mon to be able to kill it with something else. Pokemon like Garchomp, Terrakion, Hydreigon and whatnot are all in the same boat. Just a random guy's two cents though.

 

[UltiMario]

I thought the general consensus was that less creativity = less fun. People have always disliked when the OU metagame revolves around a single Pokemon (like Mence in DPP).

You of all people should know this Ulti. lol

This post makes implications that the metagame before Genesect was fluid and creative.

Hint: It was just as, if not more stale and stagnant than it currently is. Genesect brought some new team types like Lavos Sun to the table. Genesect dampered the sheer quantity of Tornadus-T rain by the sheer force of keeping momentum in your favor and always threatening an easy revenge kill, of which have exploded in popularity back on the suspect ladder due to Genesect being gone. That's not creative, that's even more stagnation than we have now.

In conclusion creativity doesn't mean jack shit to Genesect's Uber status or not. If we wanted creativity we'd stick with it over anything else.

It's not even a factor that should even be brought to the table to begin with. It's not important competitively.

Genesect is damned good. It's a better Scizor, but works on the special side rather than Physical. It's a good sweeper and a better pivot. It just doesn't shake up the metagame like any other Uber that exists (Excadrill and Thundurus wrecking metagames by themselves hint hint). It's a great new offensive tool at best and annoying to deal with at worst.

Wish I had time this past test to ladder to further the lead, but cheers to many years of Genesect to come.

 

[Kidogo]

I was neutral on Genesect until my designated counter on my bulky offense team (Heatran) started repeatedly getting raped by HP water variants...

What the hell am I supposed to do about it now? Resort to using one of the blobs or something stupid like Gastrodon that will also get raped by Giga Drain variants? Crazy how a single pokemon can make an entire playstyle utterly useless.

Genesect demolishes the idea of "creativity" in OU.

Here's the thing. Yes, genesect can run hp water (or hp ground) to beat tran. But terrakion can also run hp ice and it will never have to worry about gliscor again. Is that possible? Yes. Is that a good idea? Certainly not--terrakion either gives up substitute, a coverage move, or a boosting move and will never use hp ice against anything but gliscor. Genesect is the same way. If you run RP / hp water, you have 2 moveslots to cover WAY more threats than is possible. So will people do this? Yes, and it may even be a good idea to run hp ground on genesect if you're using it on a sun team and need heatran gone for your venusaur sweep. In that case, it's a lure and it will NOT sweep you. THAT is called being creative.

And for everyone listing 5 genesect checks or whatever, that simply isn't true--with three move coverage, genesect is guaranteed to have, say 6 or 7 pokemon that can beat it, either through taking a hit and OHKOing, flat out walling, not being 2HKOed, taking a hit and crippling with paralysis or something, or even stalling out LO (and without LO genesect loses a ton of power against neutral targets). I'll just name a couple examples for the most common set of giga drain / ice beam / flamethrower:
Pink blobs
Rain rachi
SpD rotom-w
Any tentacruel
Any fire type with semi-decent SpD without an incriminating secondary typing
Terrakion in sand
Heatran
Every single one of these is solid check to a +1 / +2 LOsect, assuming they come in at decent health etc. And furthermore, every single one of these is absolutely viable! Rachi, SpD rotom-w, and heatran are the foremost counters to tornadus-t and are great special walls in this meta, as are the pink blobs of course. Even physically defensive tentacruel easily avoids a 2HKO from +1 LO giga drain, while scalding back for the 2HKO in rain! And while fire types are not overly common, there are plenty to fit on a team--ninetales, victini, volcarona, and many less used ones. And there are plenty of more niche counters. Stuff like rotom-h absolutely destroys ANY genesect set (I guess LO hp water in rain, but I explained that above). The list of counters changes based on the set, but there are a few absolute counters, and genesect simply cannot beat all of his numerous checks at once. And it's not over-centralization in the slightest to run more than one of these checks on the same team, as they are all extremely viable pokemon in their own right.

This has been said before, but the only facet of genesect that extends beyond the "OU ken" is his versatility (primarily in terms of viable moves, as zzazz pointed out the number of truly great sets is not even that much). His level of power is nowhere near something like kyurem-b's or even terrakion's (read: swords dance). And his list of counters and checks is more than satisfactory, and way more than many other top OU sweepers'.

In summary, not at all broken in my opinion.

 

[StairFall]

The main problem with Genesect is that it's taken over a whole bunch of roles delegating formerly competent OU pokemon into niche pickings. It has Scizors crazy strong U-turn and is way faster making it an even better momentum stealer, it has amazing coverage often at +1 for wall breaking without moves with huge drawbacks plus EB/LO boosts. No reason to use Hydreigon in the OU metagame ever again. Rock polish is pathetically easy to grab a boost with and rips apart offensive teams far better than Lando or Terrakion can because it lacks a weakness to priority moves. There is no pokemon in OU that resists it's STABs and common coverage moves making it an amazing revenge killer, It Ohkoes most Deoxys-D completely shutting down HO suicide leads.

The only reason you'd ever run any pokemon that's niche has been usurped by it is because you can't run each set on your team. And that hardly matters either because it can usually do many of these things with a single set. Download cannot be exploited like it can on Porygon-Z because it's a mixed attacker mostly. Here's a team that would deny Genesect his +1 in special attack for sweeping and how it works:
1.Run pokemon that all have higher special defence than physical defence
2.Get raped by any physical attacker with a band.

 

[Duck Chris]

Looks like this is gonna be a close one. I didn't get my reqs as all my teams suck, but I have had a lot of success with RP Genesect in the past. I'd say he's probably not broken, but it's not really a sure thing. +1 SpA and +2 Speed with EBelt takes out almost the whole metagame, with a couple of checks for each moveset.

The comparison has been made to DPP Salamence in that you kind of have to assume the most dangerous set and potentially get owned by the other sets. However, the same applies to pokes like Terrakion, where the prevalence of choiced sets only makes setup sets that much more dangerous. Granted, Terrakion has a lot more checks than Genesect, but the comparison remains.

The idea of a pokemon having different counters depending on what set it is running has been common for a lot of OU's strongest pokemon (Lucario, Hydreigon), but then again, most of those pokemon have other factors that hold them back, which are conspicuously lacking in Genesect's case. Oh well, the vote is in your hands, for better or for worse.

 

[Kidogo]

The main problem with Genesect is that it's taken over a whole bunch of roles delegating formerly competent OU pokemon into niche pickings. It has Scizors crazy strong U-turn and is way faster making it an even better momentum stealer, it has amazing coverage often at +1 for wall breaking without moves with huge drawbacks plus EB/LO boosts. No reason to use Hydreigon in the OU metagame ever again. Rock polish is pathetically easy to grab a boost with and rips apart offensive teams far better than Lando or Terrakion can because it lacks a weakness to priority moves. There is no pokemon in OU that resists it's STABs and common coverage moves making it an amazing revenge killer, It Ohkoes most Deoxys-D completely shutting down HO suicide leads.

The only reason you'd ever run any pokemon that's niche has been usurped by it is because you can't run each set on your team. And that hardly matters either because it can usually do many of these things with a single set. Download cannot be exploited like it can on Porygon-Z because it's a mixed attacker mostly. Here's a team that would deny Genesect his +1 in special attack for sweeping and how it works:
1.Run pokemon that all have higher special defence than physical defence
2.Get raped by any physical attacker with a band.

First of all, you are very right in that genesect's greatest asset is his versatility. He can perform a ton of roles, and he can do them better than other pokemon in many cases. This is not such a bad thing though--if scizor fell to UU because of genesect outclassing it (not that that's ever going to happen), that's one of the criteria that can designate a poke UU. And just because genesect exists doesn't mean you have to use it--scizor for example faces competition from genesect for a pivot and U-turner due to sect's higher speed, coverage, and SpA. Of course, scizor also has stronger attacks if genesect does not get the Atk boost (and if it does, its special attacks become a lot less threatening), pursuit, priority, SD, better bulk, access to roost, Superpower, the ability to run a bulky set, and some other features. Does genesect offer it competition? Yes, but it has its own niche (which is even strange to say about scizor, giving that nothing, including genesect, can really do what scizor does) and having genesect in the metagame just forces you to exploit his advantages over sect more. If the metagame is becoming less diverse because of sect's presence, that's only because of a collective lack of creativity. And at the very least, you can only have genesect once on your team with one set...

Well, you don't counter sect by making sure it never gets a SpA boost, that's just impractical and leaves you weak on the physical side, as you said. But I listed a large number of checks for a +1 sect above--something that extreme is not necessary in the least!

Granted, Terrakion has a lot more checks than Genesect, but the comparison remains.

I personally can think of a ton more pokes that can check genesect than terrakion--to start with, having a blissey, chansey, or heatran on you team GUARANTEES RPsect will not sweep you, which is more than I can say for any terrakion check (SE crits anyone?). Not a super important point, but terrakion, while perhaps more prone to revenge killing than genesect (of course it can use substitute or rock polish to remedy this) IMO has fewer checks than genesect!

 

[FrostFire]

Well, from reading this it seems like most people have made up their minds now, and surprisingly, it looks like it's going to be closer than I thought. At the start of the suspect test it seemed all but a certainty that Genesect would get the boot; now, that overriding ban sentiment seems to have tapered off a good deal. All the same, I made the requirements for this round because I think that this vote is important, and I've basically made my mind up on how I'll vote.

I guess it's not difficult to see why Genesect is such a good pokemon - Download + 120 mixed offenses + killer (special) coverage give Genesect a great deal of power, even when it is not running any power-boosting items (life orb etc). 99 speed is great as well; many people say that this speed stat is disappointing, and perhaps it is on paper. However, in practice, I find that Genesect is almost always able to outspeed whatever it needs to with a Scarf attached, or with a Rock Polish. Throughout this entire test, in fact, I don't recall ever having any speed issues with Genesect at all.

In addition to this, Genesect also has good bulk for an offensive pokemon, which is further complemented by an excellent Bug/Steel typing. Offensive pokemon aren't generally made to stick around for a long time, but this is just the icing on the cake for Genesect; it's typing and bulk allow it much more staying power than most offensive 'mons in OU.

There aren't a lot of cons with regards to Genesect - I guess the first that I'd mention is that it can never run quite as much coverage as it would like (having only three of Bug Buzz, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower and Giga Drain** generally means that you'll have to choose who you want to hit). I guess a little more speed would be nice, as well as a more offensive boosting move (i.e. Quiver Dance), but all in all, there's very little bad about Genesect.

Of course, none of this really means it's broken; so far, I've really just outlined why it's good. But, I think if you start applying these ideas then you start to see that Genesect is just a bit too broken for this metagame. A good way to demonstrate this is by looking at Genesect's and Terrakion's Choice Scarf sets. Now, if Terrakion wants to run a Scarf, it has to sacrifice a fair bit of power - stuff like Skarmory and Tentacruel easily wall it for forever, and even stuff that isn't specifically physically defensive (like Sp. Def Jirachi) can really be problematic. In other words, Terrakion buys speed at the expense of power. Scarf Genesect does not have to do this however; obviously scarf + good speed enable it to outrun the majority of the meta. However, it's access to Download + good offenses + fantastic coverage mean that, when running a scarf, it does not have to sacrifice power. That is, a scarf Genesect essentially will always have an Auto-Dragon Dance or an Auto-Quiver Dance (sans the Sp. Def boost), AND it has coverage to threaten an impressively wide array of pokemon. Yikes.

Rock Polish is similar, except it trades the auto-speed boost and revenging capabilities of Scarf for sweeping potential, through one set-up move. It really stands testament to Genesect's awesome power and coverage that it doesn't need a +offense boosting move (i.e., Dragon Dance/ Quiver Dance) to sweep teams easily. It just needs a bit of speed, which is very easily acquired. Playing with Genesect is almost mindless; Oh, look I'm RP. Come in on resisted attack. RP. Spam SE attacks until victory.
Or conversely: Oh, I'm scarf. I'm faster than what I'm in against, and can kill it with one of my attacks. But I could U-Turn too. Doesn't matter what I do, because either way I'll be in the superior position at the end of the turn, no matter what my opponent does.

Genesect really doesn't encourage thinking very much, which makes it pretty uncompetitive. So yeah, I really don't think that Genesect is any good for OU at all; and for all those people worried about rain dominance - this is Genesect's suspect test, not rain's. We need to deal with one thing at a time, and if it gets a little worse before it gets better, then that's just how it is. We don't balance broken stuff with other broken stuff, etc, etc.

One final note that I was tentative to put forward, but feel like I should. As I said at the beginning of this post, one of the incredible things about this test is how popular opinion seems to have changed suddenly about Genesect. It's odd how strongly people wanted it banned originally, and yet now... it's strange. This is just an abstract hypothesis, directed at absolutely no-one and with no offense intended: but I'll just randomly say that I hope that the reason why people no longer want to ban Genesect isn't because they found that it got them to the top of the ladder, and they no longer want to part with it. Like I said, just a random, directed-at-no-one, general statement...



**Note: I really dislike Hidden Power on Genesect, and I feel it's a bit gimmicky, so I don't list it here.

EDIT: Oh, there are two things I forgot to say! Heatran is a shaky Genesect counter in some ways, because only the Sp. Def versions can take repeated attacks, it doesn't have recovery and can be worn down, and struggles to take +1 Thunders repeatedly from Rain Genesect. Also, it is pwned by U-Turn + Dugtrio.

Secondly, Chansey + Blissey are unreliable at stopping Genesect (namely Scarf) because +1 U-Turn + Hazards hurts, though they're still a good answer to RP. Same goes for Heatran above, as well as many of Genesect's 'checks': they're all pretty susceptible to U-Turn + hazard spam, which is obviously why Deo-D + Genesect + Dugtrio is so good.

 

[Deluks917]

I think a big reason people are less pro-ban is that the suspect meta was so terrible. Do people think rain being so prevalent on suspect had anything to do with genessect? I cannot see the connection myself but maybe I am missing something. Though I definately agree we shouldn't vote genessect based on rain.

The problem with RP genessect for offensive teams is that he is not possible to effectively revenge kill. He annot be outsped by any OU scarfer and he resists priority.

Also many good checks are not really that effective ex:

Importantly non-CB terakion doesn't otk genessect with close combat.

Rotom-W is not really a great check to the giga drain genessect unless rain is up. And if gene has +1 giga drain does a ton (depending on how spd defensive rotom is).

 

[Lady Alex]

I really hope that people don't let their dislike for the suspect ladder metagame persuade them to keep Genesect OU. If rain is broken after Genesect is banned, we can get rid of it, but, if we keep Genesect OU simply to avoid dealing with a short term metagame that may be equally undesirable, nothing will change and we're a lot less likely to achieve a healthy, balanced metagame.

 

[ginganinja]

guys just watch your examples please, I have seen a few recent examples, like iirc someone said Terrakion needs HP Ice to beat Gliscor when technically CB / SD Rock Gem etc wins regardless) so just add clarification and shit blah blah blah.

Anyway, just a couple of points I want to pick up on. For example

I'll just name a couple examples for the most common set of giga drain / ice beam / flamethrower:
Pink blobs
Rain rachi
SpD rotom-w
Any tentacruel
Any fire type with semi-decent SpD without an incriminating secondary typing
Terrakion in sand
Heatran

The problem is that most of those pokemon (Tran / Terrakion , Tyranitar, Tentacruel / Jirachi, any grounded fire pokemon) (non grounded get raped by SR and are limited to like, Rotom-W and Moltres lol) get fucked by Dugtrio, and this is what is causing people concern. Specially Defensive Rotom-W gets 2KOed iirc, so even its not an amazing check. A Standard Rain team of Genesect, Tornadus-T, Politoed, Dugtrio (which is really common at higher levels of play) is very effective at eliminating Genesect counters, (or Tornadus-T counters such as Genesect crippling SDef Rotom-W for Tornadus-T to Hurricane sweep)) and many people have expressed frustration as to how simple and effective it is.

His level of power is nowhere near something like kyurem-b's or even terrakion's (read: swords dance).

You are forgetting Download, which, when combined with 120 Offensive stats (Terrakion is 129 Atk) makes Genesect initially stronger than Terrakion, since it gets this +1 boost automatically, just switching in without having to waste a turn for SD as Terrakion might.

Anyway, FoxFire covered most of what I would want to say, its a good post.

 

[trg]

This post makes implications that the metagame before Genesect was fluid and creative.

Hint: It was just as, if not more stale and stagnant than it currently is. Genesect brought some new team types like Lavos Sun to the table. Genesect dampered the sheer quantity of Tornadus-T rain by the sheer force of keeping momentum in your favor and always threatening an easy revenge kill, of which have exploded in popularity back on the suspect ladder due to Genesect being gone. That's not creative, that's even more stagnation than we have now.

In conclusion creativity doesn't mean jack shit to Genesect's Uber status or not. If we wanted creativity we'd stick with it over anything else.

It's not even a factor that should even be brought to the table to begin with. It's not important competitively.

Genesect is damned good. It's a better Scizor, but works on the special side rather than Physical. It's a good sweeper and a better pivot. It just doesn't shake up the metagame like any other Uber that exists (Excadrill and Thundurus wrecking metagames by themselves hint hint). It's a great new offensive tool at best and annoying to deal with at worst.

Wish I had time this past test to ladder to further the lead, but cheers to many years of Genesect to come.

One could make the argument that the metagame was more fluid and creative w/o Sect. Like Tornadus-T Genesect is a common sight on most of the top teams. There's almost little reason to not be using one right now because of how many roles it can fill, but unlike Tornadus-T Sect isn't nearly as easy to play around.

But my overall point is that people dislike Pokemon that are too over-centralizing in competitive battling (like Speed Boost Blazekin). Arguing if it leads to less or more creativity is completely different argument.

Here's the thing. Yes, genesect can run hp water (or hp ground) to beat tran. But terrakion can also run hp ice and it will never have to worry about gliscor again. Is that possible? Yes. Is that a good idea? Certainly not--terrakion either gives up substitute, a coverage move, or a boosting move and will never use hp ice against anything but gliscor. Genesect is the same way. If you run RP / hp water, you have 2 moveslots to cover WAY more threats than is possible. So will people do this? Yes, and it may even be a good idea to run hp ground on genesect if you're using it on a sun team and need heatran gone for your venusaur sweep. In that case, it's a lure and it will NOT sweep you. THAT is called being creative.

And for everyone listing 5 genesect checks or whatever, that simply isn't true--with three move coverage, genesect is guaranteed to have, say 6 or 7 pokemon that can beat it, either through taking a hit and OHKOing, flat out walling, not being 2HKOed, taking a hit and crippling with paralysis or something, or even stalling out LO (and without LO genesect loses a ton of power against neutral targets). I'll just name a couple examples for the most common set of giga drain / ice beam / flamethrower:
Pink blobs
Rain rachi
SpD rotom-w
Any tentacruel
Any fire type with semi-decent SpD without an incriminating secondary typing
Terrakion in sand
Heatran

You're assuming Rock Polish is the only dangerous set. In fact your entire post is exactly why I think Sect is too unpredictable. Sect can just as easily bluff a RP set and take out nearly all of the above mentioned with the appropriate coverage moves mid-game (or Rachi and the blobs are eating U-turns) for wall breaking. Until you figure out which item it has and which coverage moves it is running you're pretty much playing a guessing game, whereas other common sweepers such as Terrakion are played around much more easily because they don't have nearly as many options. With Terrakion you know what you're getting: Stone Edge or Close Combat with the occasional Earthquake and X-Scissor. Tornadus-T: A bunch of Hurricanes. With Sect you could be looking at a U-Turn, Bug Buzz, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Flamethrower, Giga Drain, and more recently HP Water/Ground... That's insane coverage. Make the wrong move and it could easily be GG. And the most ridiculous aspect of all of this is that it is already at +1 Atk/SpAtk when it switches in... No boosting required. And even if you do correctly predict what it's running a lot of your "checks" that you posted are easily taken out by trappers like Dugtrio like the above poster mentioned.

In an unrelated note I'm too lazy to do calcs atm but if I remember correctly HP Ice on standard Terrakion isn't even a guaranteed OHKO against Gliscor so that's not even viable.

 

[UltiMario]

But my overall point is that people dislike Pokemon that are too over-centralizing in competitive battling (like Speed Boost Blazekin). Arguing if it leads to less or more creativity is completely different argument.

There are no valid arguments that can relate Speed Boost Blaziken to Genesect in terms of power and sheer ability to centralize.

 

[trg]

There are no valid arguments that can relate Speed Boost Blaziken to Genesect in terms of power and sheer ability to centralize.

It was an extreme example but my point still stands... There's very little reason for nearly any team to not be using Genesect in the current metagame, which I THINK is one of the factors that will lead to an eventual ban.

Want an effective wall-breaker? Genesect
Want the (debatably) best late game sweeper in the current metagame? Genesect
Want the best scout (bar far) in the current metagame? Genesect

 

[baddjordan]

I agree with all of your statements, but the whole idea of competitive battling is for fun! Sports are the same way, I wouldn't play sports if I didn't think they were fun.

Sport is fun because its competitive, and just enjoyable in general. All major, common, physical sports are competitive because there is an equal playing field, that is why there are divisions. When the big guy is beating everyone up in his division, its not enjoyable because all you do is lose to this guy. This is how some people may feel about Genesect, playing against something that's arguably broken is not fun. Genesect's presence is just too overwhelming, hence why it has been an early suspect in BW2.

Keep Genesect in OU.

tl;dr: Genesect is OU and helps check all the other big threats of BW2 but it itself is checked by these threats as well. Id rather see us unbanning some Mons than banning anything anytime soon.

This is what Jirachi is for, except Jirachi doesn't put a hole in everything.

 

[Admiral Bobbery]

You know what I just don't understand? WHY don't people use Flame Charge Heatran as a counter to GeneDug? Obviously it doesn't work AS WELL in the rain, but so long as you have hazards up, you can switch in on Genesect after it KO's something, Flame Charge on the switch into Dugtrio, and KO that with Hidden Power Ice! I know people don't like using Offensive Heatran without Drought support, but I don't think rain is as common as it used to be, and Offensive Heatran shines in non-weather battles. Seriously, I have KO'd more Dugtrio and Genesect than I can even count by using Flame Charge Heatran. It's certainly a more viable Pokémon in general than Shed Shell Rest-Talk Heatran...anyway here's the set.

Heatran@Air Balloon
242 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe
Modest/Timid

• Fire Blast
• Earth Power
• Hidden Power Ice
• Flame Charge

Literally all you need for this to counter GeneDug is any hazards at all. Pair this with Deo-D and Gengar (like I did on my current OU team), and GeneDug will no longer be a problem. I'm not saying that having one counter to GeneDug makes it unviable or makes it any less broken; I'm just saying that it exists, and it's good!

EDIT: Also, its effective at taking down Tornadus-T too, since, if you have Stealth Rocks up, Hidden Power ice has a chance to KO with no prior damage. Tornadus-T can't OHKO you back either and will die to it's own Life Orb Recoil.

252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tornadus-T: 204-242 (68.22 - 80.93%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

As for Dugtrio...

252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 226-266 (106.6 - 125.47%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So literally ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is get a Flame Charge and you can take out Dugtrio, Genesect, and Tornadus-T, not to mention the Ferrothorn that are also common on those teams.

Things to watch out for: Keldeo, Jellicent, Gastrodon, Rotom-W (bulky waters, basically), and opposing Air Balloon Heatran if your Air Balloon has been broken.

But Genesect is really just huge set up bait for this guy. I can honestly say I don't see Hidden Power Ground Genesect at all because of the amount of coverage you give up just to KO one extra Pokémon. I'm on the fence about whether or not Genesect is broken (I don't think he is, but he's just too easy to use/fit on your team), but Flame Charge Heatran sure as Hell counters him.

 

[peng]

The "Heatran / Blissey / Terrakion isn't a good Genesect check because of Dugtrio" argument shouldn't really be coming up here imo. Thats more an issue with trapping Pokemon being ridiculously uncompetitive and terrible for the game rather than Genesect being broken. If you are in the "ban genesect because Dugtrio beats all its counters" crowd then why aren't you all calling for a ban on every decent U-Turner because their counters can be beaten by the appropriate Gothitelle set?

 

[Master Garbodor]

Personally, I think Genesect is broken, and it doesn't fit well at current metagame at all. First of all, with the same typing of Scizor and that bulkyness, it's not stoppable by common priority moves such as Mach Punch (Breloom, Conkeldurr), Bullet Punch and Ice Shard for the 1/2 effectiveness and maybe Aqua Jet can threat it a little. So, in its sweeping phase, you are really in danger: Download's +1, with Scarf +1 or Rock Polish +2 simply make a lethal mix, and plus its DEVASTATING coverage...you know what i mean. Moreover, it's really hard to predict: Scarf, Rock Polish? Switch or no? It creates difficult mindgames and its access to U-Turn can nearly always give an offensive momentum (and deal good damage with +1 Download to Atk), worsening things. With the right coverage for your team (it's not too much casual i think) Genesect proceed to OHKO your team, and it can't be revengekilled easily after Rock Polish. IMHO, Genesect is Uber: it creates a very stale metagame (its usage it's 50%) and it's not difficult to use: set the insect at the right time (you can also easily bluff a scarf set) and the victory is probably near. Nothing more to say.

 

[TheWaddleDeeKing]

You know what I just don't understand? WHY don't people use Flame Charge Heatran as a counter to GeneDug? Obviously it doesn't work AS WELL in the rain, but so long as you have hazards up, you can switch in on Genesect after it KO's something, Flame Charge on the switch into Dugtrio, and KO that with Hidden Power Ice! I know people don't like using Offensive Heatran without Drought support, but I don't think rain is as common as it used to be, and Offensive Heatran shines in non-weather battles. Seriously, I have KO'd more Dugtrio and Genesect than I can even count by using Flame Charge Heatran. It's certainly a more viable Pokémon in general than Shed Shell Rest-Talk Heatran...anyway here's the set.

Heatran@Air Balloon
242 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe
Modest/Timid

• Fire Blast
• Earth Power
• Hidden Power Ice
• Flame Charge

Literally all you need for this to counter GeneDug is any hazards at all. Pair this with Deo-D and Gengar (like I did on my current OU team), and GeneDug will no longer be a problem. I'm not saying that having one counter to GeneDug makes it unviable or makes it any less broken; I'm just saying that it exists, and it's good!

EDIT: Also, its effective at taking down Tornadus-T too, since, if you have Stealth Rocks up, Hidden Power ice has a chance to KO with no prior damage. Tornadus-T can't OHKO you back either and will die to it's own Life Orb Recoil.

252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tornadus-T: 204-242 (68.22 - 80.93%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

As for Dugtrio...

252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 226-266 (106.6 - 125.47%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So literally ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is get a Flame Charge and you can take out Dugtrio, Genesect, and Tornadus-T, not to mention the Ferrothorn that are also common on those teams.

Things to watch out for: Keldeo, Jellicent, Gastrodon, Rotom-W (bulky waters, basically), and opposing Air Balloon Heatran if your Air Balloon has been broken.

But Genesect is really just huge set up bait for this guy. I can honestly say I don't see Hidden Power Ground Genesect at all because of the amount of coverage you give up just to KO one extra Pokémon. I'm on the fence about whether or not Genesect is broken (I don't think he is, but he's just too easy to use/fit on your team), but Flame Charge Heatran sure as Hell counters him.

What's hilarious about your set is that Heatran counters it, as well as every bulky water in existence (not that they didn't before, but now you can't take any of there hits nearly as well). Not trying to shit on your set (it's actually really viable), but ANY good player would get their Dugtrio the fuck outta there if you got a speed boost (even in rain), as his defenses are piss poor. Then they could switch into the appropriate counter and stall the process. Also, I'm not gonna switch up my team and ruin its balance to counter Genesect; all it will do (in most situations) is cause a slew of new problems. Of course, if you were already running Heatran...