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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Aldaron, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. preserve

    preserve

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    Acutally, a timid life orb-down load boosted ice beam can still one shot a dragonite through multi-scale.


    And most of the pokemons can either one shot genesect or deal massive damage to Genesect in return.
  2. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex This game sucks. Ban everything and it might not.

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    People used argument that Deoxys-S wasn't broken because it couldn't have every coverage move at once, as well. The problem is that it forces you to guess at its set and hope that it doesn't have the coverage move that will allow it to sweep/get past your check.

    Heatran is Genesect's most reliable check, since Genesect has to run uncommon sets with HP water/ground to get past it. As for the rest of them, Geneseect can reliably deal with all of them. Blissey can't take repeated U-turns, Rotom-H is SR weak and if Genesect just u-turns out as you switch in, sucks to be you, Tyranitar gets hit hard by both bug buzz and u-turn, ninetales is SR weak and is 2hko'd by +1 thunderbolt after rocks, Tentacruel can switch in on a flamethrower or ice beam, but loses to it 1v1 otherwise, Kyurem-B is SR weak, Volcarona switching in on Genesect at any given point in the match is very situational since it has to avoid switching in on rocks at all cost, and Magnezone still has to worry about the Expert belt set if it isn't scarfed. I wouldn't have dismissed Genesect's stealth rock weak checks if it didn't have u-turn, allowing it to completely bypass them so easily.

    Thundurus-T doesn't have access to the godly coverage like Genesect does, making it much less able to sweep, and it also has to worry about ground types switching in on choiced volt-turns, making it less effective at stealing momentum.

    Oh, really? I would have never guessed. Let's deal with this pokemon that forces switches so easily and racks up hazard + u-turn damage by using hazards.

    Remind me. How many fire types are in OU?

    Sure, but how often do you actually see RP Genesect not run Giga Drain?

    This is true, as long as you have sun up.

    Genesect is very rarely going to try to deal with breloom, and, if it does, it's going to be in in great health, since your opponent will know that Breloom is going to deal ~55% from a +0 LO mach punch. Saying "whittle its health down before... breloom" sounds great on paper, but, as I just said, Genesect isn't even going to attempt to deal with it if it isn't in good health.

    You're oversimplifying how easy it is to deal with. While it's true that most of the pokemon you listed are able to deal with some variant of it, Genesect has a way to get around all of them by itself, bar heatran (Even though it can use HP ground/water). Lastly, using bolded, all caps phrases doesn't make your point any more convincing.
  3. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Genesect's main strength movepool-wise isn't an insanely good coverage with three moves (Something pokémon such as Hydreigon do have) but the fact almost any combination of item and moveset is viable. Choice sets always have U-Turn, while Rock Polish sets have... Rock Polish, but other than that you have absolutely no idea of which other moves it may be carrying - the Genesect your opponent has could have the exact move it needs to turn your Genesect check into a liability, even if that move is rather uncommon (HP Ground/Water, the latter 2HKOing Specially Defensive Rotom-H and Heatran in Rain on Choice sets if Genesect gets a Special Attack boost)

    I'm not going to say anything else since I don't think I should have written this on the first place :P (As I'm not even close to the rating that is required for voting)
  4. Admiral Bobbery

    Admiral Bobbery

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    Well theres no need to attack me for my formatting :'( but point taken.

    It sucks having to debate Genesect's strength on paper because with all of his viable sets, he pretty much can't be beat. I'm really only speaking from my experience with my own Genesect, which obviously only has one moveset, meaning it is stopped cold by the threats that wall that particular threat. I'm guilty of looking at it solely on paper too, because, as you said, many of Genesect's counters can be taken out by teammates. All he has to do is U-Turn out and or switch and he's safe and now your counter is the one in danger. I guess that Genesect does seem pretty broken if you look at him having any number of possible sets, and maybe you have to. I'm just saying that I don't have too much of a problem dealing with Genesect in real battles, because really the only sets I ever see are Scarf (sometimes with Bug Buzz) and Rock Polish with Giga Drain, which I think are easy to spot right away depending on how the opponent uses them, and can be dealt with easily enough once the set has been discovered.

    Of course, my opinion matters very little. I'm certainly not a high level battler, and I didn't even try to get the reqs for this vote, so in the end it doesn't matter at all what I think or say haha.
  5. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Great Sage x Cathy is my OTP
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    The point is that these Pokemon are taking massive damage from something they are supposed to (and generally do) check. If the Genesect user simply fires off an attack instead of using Rock Polish, all of these checks (sans Volcarona, who only outspeeds with max Speed anyway) are liable to be knocked out; especially (minimum investment) Kyurem-B and Tentacruel who are OHKOd by the proper move after SR.

    I would prefer Genesect gone, but mostly so everyone stops bitching about it. If you really want to fuck it up while you can though, try Trick Room Victini!
  6. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    I agree completely with Bent1ey's post.
    Pocket, most of the counters you brought up can be beaten with the right moveset. The problem with Gene is that it is the Schrodinger's (prolly spelled that wrong) Cat of competitive Pokemon. Rotom-W is a counter, unless it packs Giga Drain. Tentacruel works, but Gene better not have Thunder/bolt. Blissey walls it, unless, of course, its CB. Heatran can take most attacks, but HP Ground kills it instantly. And Genesect can viably run those options. The only way to stay safe from a surprise move is to assume that it is, in fact, running that move. Therefore, we have to play as though Genesect is running ALL those moves, until proven otherwise. The only Pokemon I trust to fully counter Genesect is Sp. Def Jirachi in the rain, because there really isn't anything Genesect can run that will seriously hurt it. You could make arguments for Rotom-H and Volcarona, but Rotom-H doesn't do much else from that, and relying on Pokemon that are weak to SR to counter a Pokemon that is famous for using U-Turn is just dumb.

    So we're going to rely on scouting its moves, right? And how are we to do that? If Genesect is coming in, its going to come in on something that it beats, and either forces it out and sets up/U-turns, or kills it. Do we start using Protect on every Pokemon that's Gene weak, so that we can see what it does?

    To fully check every Genesect variant, you need at least one of the following
    -either Sp Def Jirachi in rain, or a pairing that can take all of Genesect's possible attacks.
    -a Choice Scarfed Pokemon with more base Speed than Genesect, and can beat it 1 on 1.
    -a Rapid Spinner to minimize the damage hazards do each time Genesect U-turns, or absolutely amazing skills with Xatu/Espeon.

    Also, running any Pokemon weak to any of Genesect's common attacks and slower than it is a terrible idea, since it forces you out. Salamence is awesome these days, never mind that ScarfChomp outspeeds it, and Mamoswine can wipe it out. SDTerrakion is scary as ever, despite every relevant Scarfer outspeeding it. But as soon as ScarfGenesect outspeeds something that it can OHKO, that Pokemon falls off the face of the earth.
  7. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    This is the effect it's having on the meta. Blissey is pretty lackluster outside in BW2, Ninetales and Tyranitar are weather inducers, Tentecruel is only ran in rain and sand, Jirachi needs to be in the rain to be a counter, and Volcanora requires spin support and works best in the sun. Which means Heatran, Rotom-H(nowhere near common and needs spin support), and Rotom-W(Giga Drain is common so this is iffy) as non-weather options.
  8. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Y'know maybe it's just me, but I never really liked the "use Sp. Def Jirachi in the rain" counter. I'm not arguing for or against Genesect's brokenness here (in fact I'm pretty ambivalent) but I don't really like the idea of not only having to carry two pokemon for a reliable counter to one, but having to set up an entire type of team to go along with those two pokemon (you can't count on the Genesect user to be running Politoed). Granted, Jirachi and rain are pretty damn awesome and ubiquitous in their own rights, but it still kinda bugs me.

    Trick Room in general fucks up Genesect and the HO teams it brings with it pretty bad, but I doubt it'll become popular.
  9. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    First of all, not sure what you mean by "the effect it's having"--these pokemon are all completely viable in their own right, and it's perfectly natural for good OU mons that happen to check one of the most used and dangerous (yes, sect is a threatening mon) pokemon in the OU meta to become more common (not that they really have, at least to my knowledge).
    Anyway, it's true that the pink blobs are less used than in previous gens, but they're still plenty viable on stall teams (and honestly, that's really the only type of team they should ever have been used on). Tales and ttar are weather inducers--yes, you have to have a weather team to use them, but on the other hand, that makes them automatically some of the most useful pokes in OU and gives them a huge purpose totally outside of countering sect. Rachi was ever quoted as being a counter, but rachi is (very very commonly) found in rain, so rachi is a great gene counter for rain teams. First of all, volc can take any hit from +1 LO gene excepting thunder(bolt) even at half health (thanks to arcticblast for the calcs), but it's true that volc prefers RS support--if you're using volc though, RS is already mandatory. And it sooo does not need sun to beat sect--i could do calcs but pretty sure it OHKOs with like any fire move even in rain. Rotom-h is niche, as you said, but mostly it's just an example of an innovative sect counter. And SpD rotom-w easily takes a giga and twaves back, crippling sect. SpDtom is also a super useful set atm, as it and SpDrachi are torny's main counters.

    That's a nice point, but I think the distinction isn't that people are saying to run a rain team with SpD rachi on it. It's more, if you're using rain, SpD rachi, which conveniently checks torny as well and fits nicely on rain teams, is a great sect counter.
  10. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    The point is that most of these checks/counters are either weather inducers, or need weather to be as viable as they are, so the multiple claims that Genesect is needed to combat weather or that Genesect keeps the meta from becoming even more stagnant, is BS IMO.
  11. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Shouldn't that Terrakion be 180 BP due to STAB on Close Combat?
  12. Jayde

    Jayde ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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    why are people trying to say that ttar counters gene? nobody switches it into any kind of choice set and even rp can usually take it on. most variants are 2HKO'd by +1 252+ LO Giga Drain after rocks, and tar loses 1v1 anyway 90% of the time unless it has a fire type move or is cb
  13. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Oh, I see. By the way, took the liberty to run some of those calcs:

    Show Hide
    248 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 94-111 (25.33 - 29.91%) -- 84.77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 248 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 141-166 (38 - 44.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    248 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona in sun: 141-166 (38 - 44.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 248 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona in sun: 211-249 (56.87 - 67.11%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 201-238 (54.17 - 64.15%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    0 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Genesect in rain: 256-304 (90.45 - 107.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    248 SpA Genesect Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 110-130 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 248 SpA Genesect Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 162-192 (53.46 - 63.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Genesect Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 156-185 (51.48 - 61.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Genesect Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 234-276 (77.22 - 91.08%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Overall yeah, they function as checks but you gotta be real careful about SR and how you switch them in, 'cause if you predict wrong...
  14. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star
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    Spd T-Tar with flamethrower/FB is a good genesect check.
  15. trg

    trg

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    Right depending on T-Tar against a Pokemon that commonly uses STAB boosted +1 U-Turns and Bug Buzzes is a fantastic strategy...
  16. Jayde

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    a. who even runs that anymore

    b. considering that scarfsect is going to use u-turn at least 70% of the time i don't see how that helps at all

    edit: @ the guy below me, that's great and all but nobody really runs max/max+ ttar, and even that has a chance to be 2HKO'd after rocks and cannot do shit back unless it cares a fiyah move. very few people run that specific tyranitar, especially in this meta
  17. Admiral Bobbery

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    No, but Tyranitar can take RP Genesect down after it has set up.

    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Genesect Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 161-190 (39.85 - 47.02%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    So Genesect even at +1, Modest, and Life Orb, can only 3HKO Tyranitar, but Tyranitar can hit back.

    0- SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Genesect: 312-368 (110.24 - 130.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    If Tyranitar carries Fire Blast, then it can live a Giga Drain or two and KO back. It's not an all around hard counter to Genesect, but the Rock Polish set can't really touch it. Note, that calc is done with the Special Attack boost and Life Orb. If Genesect is Life Orb, it's much harder to keep its set hidden from your opponent, meaning that you might even already know its set before you have to resort to Tyranitar, and you can kill it a different way. Most RP Genesect have Expert Belt instead, which does:

    +1 252+ SpA Expert Belt Genesect Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 149-175 (36.88 - 43.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    And if Genesect doesn't get the Special Attack boost:

    252+ SpA Life Orb Genesect Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 107-127 (26.48 - 31.43%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Expert Belt Genesect Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 98-118 (24.25 - 29.2%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    So no, Tyranitar isn't a foolproof Genesect counter, but it can certainly counter the Rock Polish set even if it has already set up.
  18. trg

    trg

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    Those are nice calcs and all, but they still do nothing to prove T-Tar is a good check to Sect in general since you could potentially be eating a strong U-Turn.

    That's like saying Slowbro is a reliable check for Scizor since it resists Bullet Punch.
  19. Admiral Bobbery

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    Ok, wait, what? First of all, I specifically said that he isn't a check to Scarf Genesect, we're talking Rock Polish Genesect here. Second, that is probably the weakest analogy I've ever heard of. Every single Scizor carries a Bug move to hit Slowbro, but not every Genesect has a Bug move to hit Tyranitar (and even if they did, they would need the right boost in order to KO him). Rock Polish Genesect doesn't carry U-Turn and usually doesn't carry Bug Buzz either. It's more like saying Heatran is a counter to Venusaur even though Venusaur can carry Earthquake. Obviously they're not the same because Venusaur almost literally can't touch Heatran otherwise, whereas Genesect still does decent damage to it, but Tyranitar is still a good counter to Rock Polish Genesect. I never said he was a good check to Scarf, though he is if Genesect is locked into a coverage move, but that's beside the point.
  20. Deluks917

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    Do you even need to "counter" scarf genesect? Scarf gene is not threatening a sweep except extremely late game. Conversely there is no way to actually beat u-turn. The way to not be weak to scarf-gene is to not use too many pokes weak to bug. If think gene is scarf don't bring in tyranitar
  21. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    It's not a good check, but it's a pretty decent weapon to have when it comes down to the wire, and the opponent may not expect it. However, RP Genesects usually don't carry U-Turn anymore so the only thing to worry about is Giga Drain, but T-Tar can live it and OHKO back with Fire Blast. Tyranitar is an okay check to Choice Locked Sect variants as well, because T-Tar can tank Ice Beams, Flamethrowers, and T-Bolt nicely.

    Overall T-Tar shouldn't be considered a check, but it can still be useful against Gene variants that are either locked in or lack U-Turn.
  22. trg

    trg

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    So what's the point of even mentioning a Pokemon if it's only effective against one of Genesect's 3 main sets? U-Turn is a common move on both ScarfSect and the Expert Belt set. Tyranitar isn't a reliable check to Genesect unless if you're 100% sure that you're going against a Rock Polish set. That's a shaky check at best in my book.

    Also Heatran is considered a check because a very small percentage of Venusaurs actually carry Earthquake. Like I said earlier U-Turn is practically Genesect's bread and butter move on a majority of its non-RP sets.
  23. Jayde

    Jayde ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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    exactly. so the point is, tar cannot be considered a counter to genesect. one very specific ttar set and can counter one very specific genesect set, but that's about it.
  24. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    The point is that a choice set is easy to beat by prediction and playing around it and ebelt sect is just too slow to sweep. This means that RPsect, IMO, is THE genesect set in contention, and mentioning an extremely common OU mon that walls it flat is absolutely important. You don't use ttar against sect early game when it's throwing out u-turns, but scarf/ebelt are played super differently from RP. If sect has uturn, you WILL know by early midgame because it'll be using it every opportunity.
  25. trg

    trg

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    Yeah it would be very wise to have a ScarfSect counter that can reliably switch into its main coverage moves (Heatran) or else you're just asking yourself to have your team slowly picked off one by one.

    Heatran in general is a pretty good counter until you run into an HP Ground variant. :\
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