np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)

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jrp

Banned deucer.
To be honest, I tried to use Genesect on Ubers, and it's not nearly as good as it is on OU. I don't think that this is a reason to not ban him, as Thundurus-I was supreme on OU, but on Ubers, it's somewhat meh compared to what it was on OU. I think that the same applies to Genesect.

As the person above said, we're not concerned about how a Pokemon does in ubers. Wynaut was uber in gen IV. I think you can see where this is going. Ubers is a banlist that just happens to be a fairly balanced tier.

Honestly I don't know where I stand on genesect. As someone who runs Hail (I'm jrp on PS, if you run in to me) I should be completely for a ban of it. But after making a few minor adjustments to my team, I'm not having any problems with it at all. I put the leftover 4 evs on Specs Keldeo that I originally had in hp into spdef to give it an attack boost and now I almost always take OHKO genesect early game with Hydro Pump/Secret Sword (depending on hazards) because the Genesect user tries going for thunderbolt (or they think I'm stupid and try setting up RP on me). Maybe I'm just getting bad players most of the time, but I'm skirting right under reqs on current OU (1900 with a deviation of like 62). I was at reqs at one point but I forgot to screenshot it and got haxed a bunch of times T_T

Honestly I need to play competent genesect users more before I can give an opinion on this thing
 
Ubers is a banlist that just happens to be a fairly balanced tier.
To be fair Ubers players use everything they want, so the format is entirely independant from OU's banlist, it just happens that OU banned pokes are only played in the Ubers format.

Anyways, regarding Genesect I don't think the question is whether or not the pokemon is broken by itself, but rather if the meta is more healthy or less healthy depending on whether or not Genesect is present. So actually being able to deal with Genesect has little to do in the matter.
 
Pokémon X being bad in Ubers is never a reason to keep them in OU. And the fact that he defines the metagame and that it revolves around him is called "overcentralization", another cause to boot something to Ubers.
I think that "uber" just now was meant more to mean "broken for OU" than performance in ubers. Anyway, it is true that "bad in ubers" does not mean not broken.

However, I am definitely of the opinion that genesect is not broken. At least two posts above reference him "defining the metagame," which "revolves around him". Yes, this would be overcentralization and a great reason for kicking him to ubers, were it the case. However, I truly fail to see how it is--being forced to carry a check to a high-tier (and, admittedly, very high-usage) OU pokemon in order for a team to be viable is NOT over-centralization. Someone very eloquently addressed the IV issue on the previous page, so I won't restate that, but pokemon lowering IVs in order to fare better vs. sect is not overcentralization either.

It seems clear to me that the set being regarded as broken is the RP set--a choice set can be predicted around, while any non-speed boosting set is easily outsped and revenge-killed. A key point in my mind is that RPsect can only have 3 coverage moves--just about any combination can be walled very feasibly. Here are just a few pokes that can easily beat a +1 / +2 LOsect (I'm assuming a moveset from bug buzz, ice beam, flamethrower, thunderbolt, and giga drain--the most common moves iirc) barring one move:
Chans/blissey
Heatran
Gastrodon
Tentacruel
Rain rachi
Any bulky steel in the rain
Dnite / mence
To name a few.
Of these, heatran is defeated by hp ground, gastrodon by giga drain, tentacruel by thunderbolt, and the dragons by ice beam. The pink blobs are hard stops, as is any bulky steel in rain (as someone demonstrated above, rain rachi isn't 3HKOd with max damage thunder--it can body slam, wish + protect, iron head, etc. to take sect down). All of the above pokemon are very much OU-viable, and genesect simply does not have room to run all of the necessary moves to beat them. If genesect were allowed, say, 7 moves and 252 EVs in both attacking stats, he would be utterly broken. But no matter what move combination sect, there will by viable counters to it.

Also, something I think is worth noting: Download is an utterly incredible ability on genesect--without it, I personally believe it would be low OU (or perhaps even below). I just think it is worth keeping in mind that all his "game-breaking" attacks are coming from base 120--which is quite good, but not nearly as much as some of the monsters currently in OU *coughcough kyurem-b coughcough*. In fact, just looking at genesect's base attacking stats, he would seem to make a great mixed sweeper but not a great purely special one. He has no physical movepool however...so in terms of sweeping, he's got to stick with special attacks. Which brings me back to the point: if you can prevent sect from getting a SpA boost, it is really incapable of sweeping. Not a huge point, just thought I'd put it out there.
 

nooblikeaboon

Banned deucer.
Add Ninetales and Volcarona to that list. Volcarona is really good at the moment, able to capitalize on Genesect and Breloom and defeating popular stuff like ScarfKeldeo (outside of Rain) if you have a QD-Boost. Both QD+3atks (BB, FBlast, GDrain) and QD+Roost work wonderful.

Bulky Volc can even set up vs. special Lando-I as long as the sky is clear......

Many Teams rely on stuff like ScarfKeldeo or Terrakion to check Volcarona and its quite easy to lower them, then sac someting vs. Genesect and proceed to sweep.
 
I'm now running the RP set with giga drain, ice beam and HP ground: besides air balloon heatran/magnezone (I just need to scout their item or use another move instead of RP to break it on the switch-in) the only common wall are the pink blobs and specially defensive jirachi (but he takes around 56-66% from +1 LO hp ground so it must be at full health to start a wish-protect cycle wearing down gene due to LO recoil and hoping to not be killed by a crit)...after a SpA boost the other mons that can resist more than two hits aren't so common and must invest in spdef: umbreon, snorlax, bronzong, porygon2 and cresselia are some of them and they still lose 25-45% hp (depending on the move and their stats) so they still must be careful!
 
So, I decided to post this now rather than later because it might not be as useful or relevant:



I was listening to the first track of this whilst laddering, which made the whole process slightly more enjoyable - getting haxed is very frustrating (hence the name). I'll update with ou suspect, if and when I make it D:
 

alexwolf

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Man getting the rating up can be really difficult if you didn't go really well in the beginning. I have a 43-7 score, and 1944 Glicko2 rating, while iirc you can pretty easily have exactly the half the battles with same win ratio (21-3) and be at 2000.
 


I saw around 3-4 RP genesect (best set imo) over 48 matches and one of the 5 games I lost was to one. The Choice sets are pretty easy to handle since 99 speed isn't exactly the best speed tier to be in in, but the RP set is very potent mainly because of Download. RP genesect can beat every one of its "counters" with the right 3 moves which leads me to think that it shouldn't stay in OU but I'm still not entirely convinced.
 
I'm going to vote to ban genesect, the RP and Scarf sets are just unbelievably overpowering, and it makes rain offense really difficult.
Wait... All this complaining lately about rain offense being overpowered / boring / common, and now there's a complaint that rain offense is too difficult? idgi
 


That's for OU Current. I lean heavy to the OU side on suspect tests, but Rock Polish Genesect is such a dick that I'm actually considering picking the other option, or Abstaining. One main reason why I think it could be OU is because it needs the right Download boost to be effective, but we'll see.
 
I've been laddering with Rain Offense, the HP Ice Empoleon one of mine Bloo used vs KG! (rofl, if you watched tour you'd get it). It's been my funnest team to use in a whileeeeee and I made it with my fran lavos:

Scarf Gene / BulkyToed / Taunt Tornadus-T / LO Latios / Specs Empoleon / SR Sash Duggy

I've found that rain offense is really powerful once you get your team made well, but it's a bitch to get the team made correctly. You have to have a Kingdra check, a few Ferrothorn lures / checks.. Tornadus-T, etc. It's annoying as hell to face if you aren't using your own rain/hail, but it's really hard to use since it's so prepared for from experience.
 
Man getting the rating up can be really difficult if you didn't go really well in the beginning. I have a 43-7 score, and 1944 Glicko2 rating, while iirc you can pretty easily have exactly the half the battles with same win ratio (21-3) and be at 2000.
Yeah, gaining points seems to be extremely slow once you have a lot of matches under your belt, especially with a slow start. I'm close to 100 matches now (77-17) and every time I lose it sets me back around 15 points, and winning gets me 2-4. I've been as close as 16 points from 2000, now 31 points away due to a few losses, and I don't even know if I want to continue getting there because it's such a crawl with a huge punishment for losing even once. :/
 

Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
There seem to be very few "aggressive" pokemon that check RP genessect. Heatran is a great counter but even he is not really that aggressive.
 
There seem to be very few "aggressive" pokemon that check RP genessect. Heatran is a great counter but even he is not really that aggressive.
That's not true at all. Most non-choice locked Pokes have a way of taking it out. It can't set up on Starmie, Terrakion, Breloom, LO Latios, lol Infernape, Keldeo, or Salamence. The main problem is that it can bluff scarf to set up on these, but by itself, RP Genesect will have great trouble finding set-up opportunities against an offensive team. Also, people are acting like it's impossible to stop RP Genesect, but it is pretty difficult to set up. Landorus is just as dangerous in my opinion, with its much greater Sheer Force boosted Sp Att, lack of LO recoil, and usable STAB making up for its lack of coverage and Ice Shard weakness.

EDIT: Well, it's Sp Att is more consistant. Obviously Genesects is much higher after getting the right boost. However, it can be tough to get that boost, and Landorus still has the STAB that Genesect lacks. (Bug Buzz is borderline useless except on maybe a pure special E-Belt set)
 
As said the problem with RP gene is the setup, because on the switch-in you need three things:
- a SpA boost or non-supereffective attack won't do much damage
- not getting wrecked or seriously damaged by an attack (the best is a switch on x1/4 attack like grass)
- outspeed the enemy and kill if he's threatening to gene (e.g. don't try to setup on breloom or he will 2hko with mach punch) or setup RP if you know he can't do much damage
The SpA boost is often necessary or you can't ohko some mons and get revenged, but the other two conditions are extremely important because really many neutral or even resisted strong hits can take away at least 60-70% hp (often a ohko after stealth rock/spikes damage), notably stone edge/outrage/dragon claw/EQ/drain punch on the physical side and surf/hpump/tbolt/earth power/focus blast/hurricane on the special side.
 

MJB

Sup Peeps
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnus
As said the problem with RP gene is the setup, because on the switch-in you need three things:
- a SpA boost or non-supereffective attack won't do much damage
- not getting wrecked or seriously damaged by an attack (the best is a switch on x1/4 attack like grass)
- outspeed the enemy and kill if he's threatening to gene (e.g. don't try to setup on breloom or he will 2hko with mach punch) or setup RP if you know he can't do much damage
The SpA boost is often necessary or you can't ohko some mons and get revenged, but the other two conditions are extremely important because really many neutral or even resisted strong hits can take away at least 60-70% hp (often a ohko after stealth rock/spikes damage), notably stone edge/outrage/dragon claw/EQ/drain punch on the physical side and surf/hpump/tbolt/earth power/focus blast/hurricane on the special side.
I've been using RP gene for awhile now and while this sounds hard to do, it really isn't. Infact I find it stupidly easy to sweep with genesect that for that reason alone I believe it should be banned.

So many people assume scarf and so switch out. Other times you can set up on something safely like forretress or ferrothorn or even gliscor if you run some HP ev's (which you should imo).

Also the special attack boost isn't as necessary as you think, but that depends on how the game has gone before gene has switched it.
 
Well, idk, but as I said earlier, genesect really cannot sweep as easily as people are saying he can. Above I listed a ton of pokes that can reliably counter a +1 / +2 LO sect, and nooblikeababoon added two more. In my opinion, that number is way telling--how many pokes can you list that can switch in on, say, +2 LO terrakion in sand? The number of pokes I can list that can take two hits from that is...I actually can't think of any. Whereas we have several ABSOLUTE genesect counters in the blobs, heatran, and volcarona, with many others that can take it bar (sometimes niche) coverage moves. I would rather be facing RPsect any day.
 

SJCrew

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Volcarona isn't really a Genesect counter. It gets murdered by +1 Tbolt or Flamethrower, on top of having to get rid of rocks just to switch in at all. But we did discuss earlier that it was a good check under the right conditions. We might as well take what we can get at this point.

The problem with blobs is that they're less viable in the face of suspect ladder's overwhelmingly offensive nature, so people are hesitant to use or bring them up in discussion. You won't always be facing RP Genesect either, which makes them further set up bait when it decides to U-turn.
 
Well, idk, but as I said earlier, genesect really cannot sweep as easily as people are saying he can. Above I listed a ton of pokes that can reliably counter a +1 / +2 LO sect, and nooblikeababoon added two more. In my opinion, that number is way telling--how many pokes can you list that can switch in on, say, +2 LO terrakion in sand? The number of pokes I can list that can take two hits from that is...I actually can't think of any. Whereas we have several ABSOLUTE genesect counters in the blobs, heatran, and volcarona, with many others that can take it bar (sometimes niche) coverage moves. I would rather be facing RPsect any day.
The problem with Genesect isn't that it has counters. It's that you have have to prepare for every set it can run, and each set has different checks and counters. The pink walls get wrecked by Choice Band, Heatran doesn't like the rare HP ground, and is easily trapped by the Genetrio combo, and Volcanora is easily worn down by hazards. If rocks are on the field, it's not even a check.
 
Just now I have got a 10/2 record in OUCurrent and I have only seen 3 Genesects (bander, RP and scarfer) and no Politoed. Is this habitual? (I did rank 9/10 hours ago with american players)

On other hand, when I won against people who had low rank I lost glicko2 rank although I was winning glicko rank, I dont understand this...
 



Ok so got my reqs. This suspect was pretty interesting, particularly the non Gene ladder. Stall is actually viable on the non Gene ladder and I had a lot of success adapting a BW1 sun stall team. The non Gene ladder was definitely more diverse than the Gene ladder, and like others I think I am leaning towards banning Gene.
Intresting with out gene I thought stall would be less viable as all ou dragons get a massive boost bar menace in his absence, especially chomp. How do you find dragons in non gene ladder?
 

dragonuser

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I think I only played one well made dragon spam team, and that was Jabba's. It was a pretty effective playstyle/team, and I can see it getting a lot more usage with Gene gone. But to really answer your question, I found that dragons are better/stronger now but aren't really game breaking or anything, especially when compared to Rain.
 

AfroThunderRule

*yawn* ez
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Currently laddering on the OU current (Genesect) ladder but I don't see much of Genesect. Kinda makes it hard to tell if Genesect is bannable or not.

Also what is up with the ladder? It's lame how I only get like 1 point every win but -30 with every loss. I mean back then it wasn't like that. :/
 
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