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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Dec 25, 2012.

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  1. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Sun + Genesect? Couldn't resist making a kickass team.

    I would say that Sand was definitely the best weather in the Excadrill era, but followed by Rain, not Sun. The latter really did not have much at all to work with - until Venusaur got Giga Drain with Chlorophyll, it was relatively useless. After Excadrill left the metagame, though, Rain has consistently dominated OU, with Sand a couple steps behind the whole time. Sand even fell behind Sun in my opinion for the short time Genesect was OU legal. I agree we need to stop looking out for weathers and start looking out for individual Pokemon, but we can't be too extreme with the suspect process or we'll end up doing something that we'll regret later (hi Manaphy).
  2. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    i hope im not the only person who agrees with jrrrrr :[. at this point, id just get rid of drizzle and implement aldarons proposal for drought + chlorophyll

    but as for now, i feel like keldeo just isnt close to uber while tornadus-t is. i'll go into this more and more but keldeo is pretty average altogether in relativity to other ubers. it reminds me much of terrakion in bw1, where nothing was a 100% safe counter and yet we just worked ways around it. latias, jellicent, tentacruel, starmie, dragonite, celebi, venusaur, faster mons, hazards with its lack of recovery, and the taking large damage from switching in makes it hard for keldeo to be uber in my mind. sure it can get around all the stuff i mentioned, but by doing that, itll be giving something else up instead (you go with hp ghost, tentacruel and other bulky waters, dragonite, etc. can win now). a scarfed/specs set is good, but ive always felt water just isnt that great and requires great prediction to use (ferrothorn, bulky water types, etc can make things just coin flips for keldeo, especially with hazards coming up).
  3. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    You all heard ginganinja - no more talk on Drizzle and that's final - OU Council feel free to post your reasoning behind this.
  4. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    Excadrill was only killable when Sand was down, and seeing how people gathered around with pitchforks and torches to ban him I'd say keeping sand up wasn't much of a problem at that time.

    I wasn't there unfortunately when Blaziken was around but seeing how he was banned way too early in the game and reviewing the calcs I'd say he was a dominating force in early BW1, maybe not sun specific to the point it made it superior but he did his share.

    Sand Stall was superior in every way against Rain Stall, lot's of people remember when Shweinstigers (can never spell this name correctly) dominated the ladder all the time until Excadrill got banned.

    Regarding Deo-S, he had his own category of playstyle for crying out loud, Deo + 5, he didn't even need weather/care about it to dominate.

    It isn't, I used strong words describing the place of rain in certain metas but I never intended to make light weight of it, my bad.

    The thing is, you not banning an ability, you are outlawing a playstyle, speaking of which I'd really like to know what playstyles rain is putting down (before and after these suspect tests) versus how many would disappear if Drizzle would be banned.
  5. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    A quick note: To all those claiming that Tornadus-T and/or Keldeo are low in usage, take a look at the OU Suspect stats for November. The true metagame picture is reflected there,
    and as I recall, Keldeo is #4 in usage, while Torn is hovering somewhere around #10. These Pokemon aren't under-used by any meaning of the word, and claiming they are doesn't mean anything anyways. Thanks :]

    Edit: that's my point, Bri...stop underestimating Electrode! (sarcasm here)
  6. dice

    dice practitioner of the city
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    Why are usage statistics even being involved. You can't just say a Pokemon is banworthy via usage statistics, otherwise Scizor and Dragonite would be Uber!

    key to beating Keldeo and Tornadus-T (open)
    use scarf electrode, can switch-in to Tornadus-T and outspeed both of them!
  7. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    I really want someone to point to me how Keledo may be considered ban worthy, assuming it's left alone without Tornadus-T thanks.

    PS. Useage statistics are helpful in seeing how a pokemon or playstyle effects the entire meta.
  8. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Keldeo sucks outside rain??? KELDEO SUCKS OUTSIDE RAIN??? Guy, I beg that you are joking. It is bad on sun (although Specs-boosted Hydro Pump still OHKOes Ninetales... under sunlight). But Keldeo can still wreck avoc outside rain. Although it's a matter of fact, that Keldeo, under rain, has the power of Arceus himself (this was only a metaphor). Specs Keldeo has no safe switch-ins at all.

    Although I find all sets, except Scarf Keldeo, to be somewhat manageable. Despite having few safe switch-ins to begin with, they can be revenge killed with much more ease. The Calm Mind set is harder to revenge kill because it boosts its own Special Defense, which means that it is harder to revenge kill with special attacks when they aren't super-effective. However, the Scarf Keldeo set is a problem. You must be prepared for it at all costs, because it can sweep your team if you don't have any means of dealing with it. It's simply very hard to deal with; there was a time that I had to use Choice Scarf Tornadus-T to revenge kill Scarf Keldeo! As there are almost no offensive checks to it, you must resort to defensive checks/counters, like Specially Defensive Celebi. So I think that this alone, can be reason enough to make him ban worthy, although I am not sure. The idea of banning Keldeo never came to my mind before.

    As for Tornadus-T, it would be interesting if it was banned. The normal Tornadus could be stronger, but it was much, much more manageable, thanks to its lower defenses, lower speed, and a lack of Regenerator. If you don't have something like Jirachi, specially defensive Rotom-W, or if you don't have means to revenge kill it (thanks to its high speed, you need something that has Choice Scarf to revenge kill it... and there are some Scarfers, like Tyranitar, that are still slower than Tornadus-T!), good luck trying to take down Tornadus-T. T The latter can even be bypassed by Substitute, which is a rare move, I admit, to be used on Tornadus-T. But I've used it on the past, and I never had problems anymore, with revenge killing. The former can also be bypassed, by Heat Wave, although Heat Wave is useless on rain teams, but one must always be wary of that move. The fact that even many Pokémon that resist Hurricane take heavy damage from it (such as Rotom-W that doesn't invest on special defense), and the fact that Tornadus-T can mantain momentum and bypass some of its checks with Superpower, means that I am inclined to agree with Tornadus-T ban. However, I must see more opinions about him to make a decision.
  9. Curtains

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    Neither of these pokemon are any good outside of rain. This suspect test doesn't really make sense to me it would be like suspecting venusaur, victini or sandslash. They are all good in their respective weathers.

    Keldeo makes for a good scarfer but as anything else it has lack of recovery and has questionable move coverage. Tornadus' only use is in rain. Outside of rain it has a flying stab focus blast and no other real attack moves to help out. Regenerator is a good ability but with rocks up we can say that it cancels that out. Neither of these pokemon are uber. Yes you do need counters to them but you need counters to alot of really good OU pokemon. That is why they are OU. Both of these pokemon are countered by a simple "weather war" type approach. Switching in specially defensive ninetails hard counters both of these pokemon.
  10. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    ER, are we seriously discussing Keldeo?

    "Specs Keldeo has no safe switch in inside rain..." and Band Terrakion has no safe switch in any weather (well, at least, same # of safe switches as Keldy). Band Terrakion also kind of sucks this gen (Dropped in usage tremendously. I haven't seen it in ages).

    Bri has a point - most of Keldeo's counters are pursuit trapped, but then again the only pursuit partner that could be used alongside Politoed is Scizor (since, unless your implying dual weather = brokeness, the other trapper is TTar) and TTar = no rain spamming and that's where Keldy is "broken". Celebi kind of gets U-turn and can U-turn out of Keldy (on the TTar switch) and it gets HP FIre. Ammonguss dgaf about Scizor or TTar. Latias hates pursuit trappers, but it hard-core walls Keldy though. SDef Wash makes a considerably good check to Keldy as well.

    With Tornadus-T, THAT SHIT IS BROKEN. Why? Because every team (despite playstyle) requires a hurricane switch in. Without one Tornadus-T butfucks you. Seriously, every team has: Jirachi or Rotom-W.

    tl;tr: Stop bitching about Keldeo; ban Tornadus-T. Stop spamming "perma weather is broken" bs and lets move on.


    EDIT:

    Yeah my arguement for Keldy is shit so let me get more into that. Keldeo is considerably average. Jelicent and Toxicroak usually beat it; as well as Latias, SDef Rotom-W, and Celebi. Rotom-W is especially common on all ladders and Celebi has spiked usage on PS. Latias is also just very common, and Toxicroak / Jellicent are in decent usage in OU and work. Ammongus is seen a bit less, but I know a couple of good stall users who still use Amonguss and it 100% counters Keldeo. Can anyone name a 100% counter to Band Terrakion besides Golurk? Band Terrakion isn't even broken; as I mentioned before, and it's usage has plummeted (proving it doesn't work as well as it did BW1). Keldeo is good in rain, it sucks outside of rain, and it makes a decent scarf user. However, the Scarf user (most common version) can't get past any of its usual counters at all...

    I don't see how Keldeo is "broken to the point of ubers". Its a good Pokemon and it has its niches, but I don't see any part of Keldeo that screams "OMFG BAN ME!"

    On Tornadus-T; however, is another story. Pretty much Wash + Rachi spam on every team and rise of ChopleTar should speak volume: Tornadus-T overcentralizes the meta.

    /rantend
  11. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Keldeo doesn't need much coverage moves. Rain-boosted Hydro Pump and/or Surf is enough to revenge kill a lot of things. Plus, it has Secret Sword to bypass the pink blobs, and revenge kill things like Hydreigon and Kyurem-B. and the only other move that it really needs is Hidden Power Ice, to revenge kill Dragons. Otherwise, there aren't much things that it would need to run. Hidden Power Electric is okay for Gyarados. While that would seem to mean no coverage against Dragons (as Keldeo lacks Ice Beam), Keldeo still has Icy Wind, which still does a lot of damage against most Dragon-types.

    Also, like Band Terrakion, Specs Keldeo has very few switch-ins on any weather. When Hydro Pump is boosted by rain, however, the list of things that are safe switch-ins to Keldeo becomes even narrower. The difference between the two is that Band Terrakion not only does not have its STABs boosted by any weather, but Band Terrakion has more weakness that can be easily exploitable.

    About the fact that most of its checks/counters are vulnerable to Pursuit, that's the reason why Keldeo also works outside rain. And I am not talking about the Scarf variant. I am talking about the Specs and the Calm Mind variants, which can spam Hydro Pumps, that are still very powerful even though they are not boosted by rain. To have a idea of how powerful Specs Keldeo is outside of rain: it OHKOes Scizor with Hydro Pump, and 2HKOes specially defensive Jirachi.
  12. Nova

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    Don't think either of these 2 Pokemon are too threatening for OU. Tornadus-T is a huge powerhouse and the better of the 2 but really relies on there being rain. Once the weather war is won against it which granted is easier said than done, his potential decreases dramatically. Another thing that limits Tornadus-T from being banworthy in my opinion is the fact that Tornadus-T only viably runs 1 set which can be countered. Keldeo on the other hand has various sets but is just not powerful enough to be banworthy and there are a handful of viable counters to the pony that can pretty much conpletely wall her if played properly (Jellicent, Toxicroak, Celebi, Virizion, Tentacruel)
  13. Curtains

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    People are "bitching" about perma weather because one or two rain dependent pokemon are about to banned from all of OU. Without rain Tornadus-T and Keldeo would probably be verging on UU and that's a fact. If we are gonna cherry pick which weather dependent pokemon are deemed uber we need to think about a proactive solution to stop us from wasting any more suspect test before another generation or game comes out. Hurricane from Tornadus seems strong because of its awkward typing but many pokemon have moves just as strong. The use of rotom and jirachi make sense because the metagame evolves and changes based on the threats. Rotom is used to counter most big rain threats and be a threat to sand teams. jirachi is....just a good all around pokemon no matter what the top metagame threats are. Keldeo has way too many switch in counters to be consided broken and tornadus is just apart of the "weather war". If you ban tornadus you have to ban victini, stoutland and venusaur.
  14. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    I don't disagree with a Tornadus-T/Keldeo suspect rather than a drizzle suspect test right now. If drizzle were banned, Sun and then sand (Seriously, if we didn't have rain or sun, there are now several pokemon that benefit immensely from Sand, and it would very realistically become a problem) would likely follow. I'll definitely vote to ban Tornadus-T, since I believe it's a ludicrously strong pokemon that has little counterplay outside of overpreparing for it. I'm less certain about Keldeo, but will probably vote to ban it as well, simply because I think a metagame without it would be more enjoyable.
  15. hotcoldyay

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    Wow... this is definitely going to be one very interesting suspect discussion.

    Keldeo is iffy. It's pretty manageable if you have the right counter, but it's terrifying, especially under rain. It has no problem destroying tyranitar and abomasnow, and ninetails is easily taken care of by dugtrio and friends. Depending on its teammates, you can usually switch in a counter and this is easily taken care of. If you status it with anything bar burn, its destined to die. However, Keldeo is undeniably speedy and powerful, and if you don't run the certain pokemon needed, you're doomed. This aquatic unicorn is definitely a big threat to most teams, but it's manageable enough due to its shallow movepool. It's like a huge thorn when you hold a rose. It hurts, but you just cut it off, and babam, its gone. Whether or not it deserves to go will be a close vote, IMO. I like him, but taking him out will keep the metagame from getting so pressure filled. I'm going to wait a bit before I decide on my vote for this cute little guy.

    Tornadus-T, on the other hand, has good enough reasons to be banned. Sure, it's not really all that powerful outside of rain, but it is incredibly annoying to face regardless of weather. Not the right counter? U-Turn out. Got a wall? Taunt it. Got a Blissey, Chansey or Ferrothorn ready to wall it? Superpower time. Is rain up? Murder with Hurricane. It's ridiculous. Then pair this with Keldeo and Dugtrio, and a terrifying trio is formed. Back it up with a bunch of rain support, and it's a nightmare. Sure, it's offense and defense are meh, but it's speed is what makes it so terrifying. It's because of that that you can't even status it before he u-turns out and regenerates hp. You're going to be forced to run a scarfer, priority attackers, or jolteon in order to kill it. It's pretty broken, IMO. More than half the teams I see are running jirachis, rotom-ws, and other things desperately needed to counter it. It is overcentralizing for sure. GET THIS THING OUT OF OU! Phew, finally got that out of my chest. :D
  16. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Specs has few switch ins in any weather? That's a joke right? Latias walls both STABs and HP Ice is considerbly weak (roost heal / psyshock outspeed). Bulky Celebi / Ammongus easily tank all of its STABs as well. Toxicroak / Jellicent hard core wall choice'd sets (even specs). Bulky Starmie easily switchs in on no rain. Hell, Latios can switch into Hydro Pump outside of rain with ease and Roost off the damage.

    In rain, THATS where it can be comparable to Terrakion. And Band Terrakion isn't that great. I've only seen like 1 team use it in 3 months in the RMT section.

    How does Band Rak has "more easily exploitable" weaknesses? Gliscor is 2HKO'ed by Band SE. Keldeo's usual counter (Among) isn't 2HKO'ed by Specs HP Ice. (252 SpAtk Choice Specs Keldeo-R Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Amoonguss (+SpDef) : 43.98% - 51.85% (3 hits to KO))

    Band Rak 2HKO's Skarm. Keldeo can't beat Toxicroak even with Specs (252 SpAtk Choice Specs Keldeo-R Secret Sword vs 244 HP/12 Def Toxicroak: 39.13% - 46.47% (3 hits to KO))

    Band Rak is better than Keldy in terms of abusing a choice'd Pokemon. Rak has fewer switch ins and its usual switch ins can't switch in whereas Keldy's... can.
  17. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I doubt that banning Tornadus-T alone would make that much of a difference; it's a slap on the wrist, if anything. Its incarnate form lacks its bells and whistles, sure, but Tornadus-I is still capable of spamming fast and powerful Hurricanes.

    Anyway, I think OU's main issue is that people are able to make teams that require no thought or coherence, and get away with it. For example, I've actually seen people with 1900+ ratings that use 5 Dragons + Magnezone, or fast SR lead + 5 big sweepers, or even Voltturn teams in general. Because of the presence of these degenerate teams, games often don't last past 20 turns or so, because everything is capable of doing so much damage in a short period of time.

    Another thing I don't like is team preview in the OU metagame. In such a fast meta, the thing that you lead with is crucial. If you choose the wrong lead, you are often in an instantly worse position because your opponent gets a free turn to do whatever he/she wants while you are forced to switch out. In tiers that are not quite so fast-paced, team preview is fine, but I don't think it's healthy at all here.

    Those are just the things I've observed throughout BW1 and BW2. Banning one or two rain Pokes, or even rain itself, wouldn't solve those issues. In fact, making rain less powerful just makes options like Deoxys-D offense or Dragonzone more attractive.
  18. Wizarus

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    Toxicroak can't switch into Keldeo; it's 2HKO'd by Specs HP anything neutral to it. And Gliscor will never be 2HKO'd by Band Terrakion if it has protect.
  19. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Keldeo has a lot of checks, so I'm not really going to get into him. The biggest threats in Rain are the Therians. Simply put, there isn't much you can do about Tornadus-T. He commands the match every second he is alive, and your only real shot at keeping him from ripping you apart for a prolonged period of time is specially defensive Jirachi. He makes a lot of Pokemon either less viable or unviable (Conkeldurr, Celebi, Amoonguss) by simply existing. Whenever I go to build a team, I am always thinking about that bird.

    And don't you dare tell me specially defensive Zapdos is viable in this meta or that specially defensive Rotom-W is good. That's bullshit. These sets weren't even viable before Tornadus-T and they won't be viable once he leaves. Specialized sets for countering one Pokemon were never good, they are just a way of swallowing our pride as we accept that solitary Pokemon ruining the meta.
  20. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    lol banning Keldeo.

    Keldeo is by far not an issue, as far as I've seen. Tornadus-T on the other hand is the essential glue to rain teams. Their are three main problems with Tornadus-T:

    1. The much needed coverage to rain in the form of Hurricane
    2. Great coverage, with access to Superpower and Focus Blast to prevent being walled
    3. The ability to shake off its one weakness to hazards, Stealth Rocks, with absolutely no reprecussions

    In a more in depth analysis:

    Tornadus-T can't be walled. At all. With the most common set utilizing a 100%, STAB Hurricane, access to both Superpower AND Focus Blast, as well as any Hidden Power that gives you a boner, and to top it off access to other great moves like Taunt and U-Turn, it's very, very hard to beat. It doesn't help that the clever bastard who made the Tornadus-T analysis recommends a Timid nature to max speed - at the point where a Choice Scarf Tyranitar can't come in to revenge kill. Granted, Tornadus-T does not have the greatest defenses, though it doesn't exactly need it where Regenerator grants you 33% of your health back for switching into the appropriate counter.

    As another point, 100% accurate Hurricanes are a big deal. Although base 110 is only above average in terms of special attack, when you factor in that it's a 120 base power move, gets STAB and has a high chance to confuse your target, it's quite the big deal. You might say that the presence of other weather can render this useless; however, when you consider that the most common weather by far is rain, the issue is not a big deal as long as you're smart and keep Politoed alive (or you could just slap Rain Dance on that sonuvabitch if you really wanted too).

    There are a few good counters, luckily ones that are rather common (Scizor, Jirachi, Rotom-W), however if you don't carry some check, it can cause quite the problems. It's certainly not as bad as Genesect, though it's still a problem. At least not to the point where you need to carry Heatran on your team (in reference to Genesect), but still a problem.

    In short, Tornadus-T is quite the threat. I'm going to have to say we need to put the banhammer down on this one. But not Keldeo. I laugh at trying to put Keldeo into Ubers.

  21. Curtains

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    I agree that teambuilding has become very easy for anyone to pick up the game and make a contending team. I have seen so many "standard" rain, sun and sand teams that it makes it boring. I go to the RMT section and see a well luvdisked thread and its the same shit I seen a million times just with a few changes. I think we can't do anything about it though. The nature of BW2 is big home run OHKO pokemon that people need to watch out for. One solution is to just get rid of weather and start suspect testing the dragons like in DPPT. I think a clean slate is necessary for a true teambulding skill metagame to come about. Also I totally agree about tornadus-I. Tornadus-I is just as strong as Tornadus-T and has a just as good ability in prankster. In fact before bw2 even happened tornadus -I was "the hurricanner" that everyone still had to prepare for.
  22. Nyara

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    Actually... There's a easy way to handle any weather war, and it's using the Rain Dance/Sunny Day/Sandstorm/Hail moves, it may look "wow, that's a thing from the past or from buttom tiers!" but actually, it works wonderful, let just put a little example:

    A Pokémon who can resist a single Hurricane is on a 1vs1 on rain against Tornadus-T, then you use Sunny Day, and he'll have only a 50% chance to damage you, then he'll most probably to change to Politoed again or try to face you, but now you hace the advantage of the field. The weather casters are incredible for a long run weather, but you can just clean the weather using a weather move and having something to defeat the weather caster of the enemy. Hail and Sunny Day in particular are the best for cleaing, because Drizzle is the most common weather and Sunny Day almost destroy a Rain-Dependant team, while Hail is almost never used, and even if you're fighting a hail team, you can still use on other Pokémon Sunny Day to screw them, or just fight away, Hail is not that powerful.

    Even then, Tornadus-T is really broken, in or outside from the rain, because he can still spam 70% precise Hurricanes and he'll most probably sweep your team with not really high luck. Keldeo by other hand... I dunno, I never used or did a fight against one, yeah, never seen one.
  23. Curtains

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    remember you can put rain dance on Tornadus-T.
  24. Nyara

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    But no one does that, and even if someone does that, Tornadus-T is not that bulky (mostly because it's typing) to being able to succesful setup it. Anyway, the most changing and predominant thing on the game is Stealth Rock, and Tornadus-T is superior to other Flying-Type sweepers because he can just heal itself without any major trouble, but without Stealth Rock, a lot more of threaths are starting to appaer and make the day of Tornadus-T sad.
  25. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    You shouldn't be running HP Ice on Specs Keldeo. Keldeo has Icy Wind, which despite being weaker, is still strong enough to 2HKO Latias that doesn't invest in HP after Stealth Rock damage, and 2HKO Latios without Stealth Rock regardless (it's not necessary to say that Latias that doesn't invest in HP will not have a second chance to take Keldeo's blows). Thanks to Icy Wind lowering their speed, Keldeo is able to outspeed them, unless they run Choice Scarf, and defeat them. Also, many Keldeo run Hidden Power Ghost, which 2HKOes both specially defensive variants of Celebi and Jellicent after Stealth Rock damage (the latter must also watch out for Hidden Power Electric).

    Also, by exploitable weakness, I mean that Choice Band Terrakion is easier to revenge kill than Specs Keldeo, thanks to its multitude of weakness. Terrakion is even weak to 2 common priority moves: Bullet Punch (from Scizor) and Mach Punch (from Breloom). Keldeo resists the former and is neutral to the latter. In fact, Keldeo has only 4 weakness.

    Do not think that I am defending Keldeo's ban, however. Only its Scarf set is hard to deal with, and to me, there's no reason to ban a Pokémon just because one of its sets is arguably broken.
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