O.k fine, you brought in your Chansey on the Hurricane, take SR damage, and bring in Scizor on the Taunt. Fine, I switch out, am at 100% and can rinse and repeat. Chansey is not beating me and you still lose.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane
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What I'm not comprehending is the fact that almost every pro-tornadus argument is centered around its ability to switch out to something else that is better suited.
Yes it has regenerator, but that puts it, practically, at the same place as another pokemon that could switch out with no hazards on the field, even less if it has life orb.
ANY pokemon can switch out of a counter, it is what a counter does: forces the opponent either out or dead.
It says nothing about tornadus t for every argument to be "well... it can switch out?"
The fact of the matter is, under normal circumstances, jirachi counters it, spdef zapdos counters it, rotom-w normally counters it, bronzong normally counters it.
And it having the ability to switch to another poke does not change that whatsoever, end of story, as it has virtually nothing to do with the poke itself and describes the same thing that any other pokemon can do.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
You're wrong about one critical thing: Tornadus-T does not SWITCH OUT. Tornadus-T U-TURNS OUT. There is a key difference here. With switching out, you do NOT get to see if your opponent stays in or attempts to pull a double switch on your predicted switch. You DO get to see this when using U-Turn. In addition, U-Turn causes extra damage to whatever check or counter you care to switch in, whereas switching out does not. This removes any element of prediction that the Tornadus-T user would have to do if Torn-T didn't get U-Turn, and instead puts the pressure on the person that's going up against Torn-T to have to predict their opponent's moves. Torn-T isn't all about stats and tangible offensive pressure - it puts mental stress on the opponent as well.
This segment of your post in particular makes me want to vomit. Why the hell do you think that none of the other huge offensive threats in this metagame are being put on the chopping block? Look at Dragonite, Salamence, Latios, Latias, Lucario, Breloom, and Terrakion. They're all really powerful and excellent sweepers, right? What's the one thing they lack that Torn-T has? You guessed it: U-Turn. That simple move is such an incredible difference-maker, and if you're mentally incapable of comprehending that, I don't know why you're posting here.
@superbadd: none of the pokes you mention have BASE 121 SPEED, we went over this already go read the last like 5 pages before posting
Fyi, Jirachi, landorous, scizor, and hydreigon are all top tier threats that have u-turn, and aren't broken. I seriously doubt giving dragonite or salamence u-turn would make them broken as well.
Edit:
You suggested that the difference between what makes tornadus so threatening against the other threats is u-turn. You said nothing about its speed which in conjunction with u-turn doesn't make much of a difference, really. I just wanted to refute that lousy rebuttal you presented. It has been gone over how piss weak that u-turn is. I've been reading the past few pages, your arguments are largely regurgitated, fallacious, and lack substance.
Edit:
You suggested that the difference between what makes tornadus so threatening against the other threats is u-turn. You said nothing about its speed which in conjunction with u-turn doesn't make much of a difference, really. I just wanted to refute that lousy rebuttal you presented. It has been gone over how piss weak that u-turn is. I've been reading the past few pages, your arguments are largely regurgitated, fallacious, and lack substance.
Since almost every suspect I've seen comes with ridiculous lower tier suggestions (anybody remember suggestions for Scarf Suicune in response to banning Salamence?), I figured I'd bring up one that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Stunfisk (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Discharge
- Earth Power
- Scald / Yawn / Toxic
Venturing into the other tiers, this seems to be the best non-Uber Tornadus-T counter in the game that I could find. With Static, Tornadus-T can't U-turn on Stunfisk or it'll risk neutering its strongest attribute. And Static doesn't activate on just U-turn. It activates on Superpower, and more importantly Grass Knot, which only has a 40 base power against this lightweight derpfish. Unfortunately, aside from Heatran and Jirachi, it fails to counter anything else in the OU meta, and loses horribly to the high powered rain attacks that come alongside Tornadus-T, as well as Ferrothorn, so packing means to deal with those two are important.
Stunfisk (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Discharge
- Earth Power
- Scald / Yawn / Toxic
Venturing into the other tiers, this seems to be the best non-Uber Tornadus-T counter in the game that I could find. With Static, Tornadus-T can't U-turn on Stunfisk or it'll risk neutering its strongest attribute. And Static doesn't activate on just U-turn. It activates on Superpower, and more importantly Grass Knot, which only has a 40 base power against this lightweight derpfish. Unfortunately, aside from Heatran and Jirachi, it fails to counter anything else in the OU meta, and loses horribly to the high powered rain attacks that come alongside Tornadus-T, as well as Ferrothorn, so packing means to deal with those two are important.
Exactly what I wanted cleared up, and it was.
But that is simply where intelligent playing comes in.
If you bring in your jirachi and you are expecting tornadus to u-turn out (which it will), you can either a) u-turn out yourself, giving you the momentum as the slower poke or b) switch to something like rocky helmet ferrothorn to take advantage of the u-turn.
The power of the switching moves was established during the volt-turn era, but it could (obviously) be stopped.
This proves difficult for tornadus because it has strong offensive capabilities, and regenerator to top it off.
But it still can't be ignored that it is very dependent on rain, it has a weakness to stealth rock that hampers regenerator's potential, and it is not all that strong.
And the question that comes up is whether or not the ability to pivot as tornadus does makes it broken. It neither gives it the ability to sweep not wall a significant portion of the metagame, and does not provide as much support as a slower u-turner as it cannot open up free switches and such. Plus, tornadus cannot u-turn against the faster (or scarved) things that threaten it, which, concerning things like scarf keldeo which can power their way through many things, is quite dangerous.
Tornadus is, in general, a mess of wonderful qualities, but its (few) flaws are still eminent and, in my opinion, place it right alongside the other top-tier ou threats.
And also, on a side note, specially defensive hippowdown handles torn-t very well, and isn't nuetered by the torn+dugtrio combo.
And on another side note, I can guarentee that when the usage statistics come out, the #1 set will be the specs one. It is by far the most common, though whether it is the best is arguable. Thus, it doesn't matter if it can taunt its way through counters and such or u-turn out, because it can't switch moves.
None of them have 121 base speed, though jirachi can utilize it beautifully in a scarf or spdef set (to counter torn-t even further, nonetheless!) and the sets that utilize u-turn, as mentioned, are choiced, meaning that they don't have the option that lavos was explaining of turning out of a counter after launching a strong (kind of) attack.
Dragonite and mence wouldn't be able to make much use of u-turn because it simply doesn't suit their set up and sweep styles.
They would not want to u-turn out of their +1/+2 speed/attack boosts, it works for torn-t because torn utilizes immediate power rather than setting up
Just got reqs.
I honestly do not see a problem with Tornadus-T. I didn't run into them nearly as much as I thought I should have. While that's not a good qualification for determining "uberness", it does say something to me if it's not omnipresent like Genesect was. The problem with Tornadus-T is it can't do much outside of Rain. While Choice Specs Hurricane is extremely fun to use, it is not invincible. Jirachi and Rotom-W hard counter this thing, and Magnezone has no problem taking the occasional Hurricane. Oddly enough I never ran into any Tornadug teams. LO sets lack power and miss many key OHKOs, especially on Latios. The U-Turn thing might be the biggest problem here, but if Torny-T is just U-Turning all game, I'm fine with that. I think people are more sick of Drizzle and Rain and want some way to balance the metagame. If you want to do that, test Excadrill first and see what happens. Banning Torny-T might help, but Torny-T from my laddering experience is not broken.
Keldeo isn't worth testing, even though I did see it more. It's the best scarfer in OU at the moment but that's really all it can do.
I honestly do not see a problem with Tornadus-T. I didn't run into them nearly as much as I thought I should have. While that's not a good qualification for determining "uberness", it does say something to me if it's not omnipresent like Genesect was. The problem with Tornadus-T is it can't do much outside of Rain. While Choice Specs Hurricane is extremely fun to use, it is not invincible. Jirachi and Rotom-W hard counter this thing, and Magnezone has no problem taking the occasional Hurricane. Oddly enough I never ran into any Tornadug teams. LO sets lack power and miss many key OHKOs, especially on Latios. The U-Turn thing might be the biggest problem here, but if Torny-T is just U-Turning all game, I'm fine with that. I think people are more sick of Drizzle and Rain and want some way to balance the metagame. If you want to do that, test Excadrill first and see what happens. Banning Torny-T might help, but Torny-T from my laddering experience is not broken.
Keldeo isn't worth testing, even though I did see it more. It's the best scarfer in OU at the moment but that's really all it can do.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
Haha do you really not understand the correlation between Tornadus-T's great Speed and access to U-Turn, and why that makes it so broken? That's really sad. Let me spell it out for you with a simple example. Let's compare Scizor and Tornadus-T. They both have access to U-Turn, and they're both pretty strong, right? There's one key difference: Torn-T's base Speed is 121. Scizor's base Speed is 65. This means, for example, that when Torn-T attempts to Hurricane into Breloom and finds itself walled by the Jirachi switch-in, it can simply U-Turn out of Rachi and go to the appropriate check or counter. However, when Scizor goes for Bullet Punch on Terrakion and finds itself staring down a Politoed instead, it's slower than Toed, so it has to eat a Scald for 45% and a potential burn before being able to escape its check/counter and go to its appropriate check/counter. That's where the connection between Speed and U-Turn comes into play, and I'm surprised you couldn't see that without a full explanation.
If you need someone other than me to tell you how it is, read Lady Alex's post below.
Damn, that's ironic. Take a look at what you've been throwing out there for the past three pages, then read my refutations to your claims. Who's the fallacious one here? Btw, claiming things are true without any substantiation of said claims counts as a fallacy :)
You're grossly underestimating what a big deal u-turn is on a pokemon that's as devastatingly powerful as Tornadus-T. It doesn't matter how weak it is. It's extra damage on top of stealth rock damage and potentially hurricane damage. The pokemon you listed above with u-turn aren't comparable in that they don't have the combination of sheer power AND speed that Tornadus-T does. Jirachi, Landorus, and Hydreigon require a scarf to be able to freely u-turn on large portions of the metagame, and Scizor is too slow to be able to do so.
B/c the u-turn is damn weak it can often be recovered after two round of leftovers from a lot of walls, which when combined with LO damage and SR along with prior damage from a previous threat, negates the effectiveness of regenerator. If LO tornadus u-turns on ferrothorn or garchomp, its already lost a large chunk of health that regenerator can't recover off. I've found when playing with Tornadus-t, it's often better to just switch out rather than u-turn due to gaining more recovery which would otherwise be minute with SR and LO damage racking up. It can't do it all. Sure u-turn is a nice boon on it, but if it's choiced it can't abuse the whole hit and run strategy as well as LO. As for LO it will end up gaining more net damage if it switches in to SR and then takes LO damage. SR=25% LO=10% shaved off Regenerator+33% recovered, if it takes something like a scald from tentacruel it's going to be at a little over half it it continually does the hit and run strategy. That will make it easy to pick off with priority and it will eventually wear itself out. So unless you double switch to keep it healthy, it will eventually be worn down by succumbing to LO damage or priority. That's why imo, U-turn is largely exaggerated.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
Another swing, another miss. It seems that you simply don't understand the point I'm making. I don't care how weak or otherwise Tornadus-T's U-Turn happens to be, that's irrelevant. The point is that Torn-T's incredible Speed coupled with the fact that it has U-Turn prevents its so-called "checks" from hitting it before it gets out of the way, thereby taking the prediction element out of the way for the Torn-T user while putting even more pressure on the opponent to make the right call time after time. I used Scizor as an example; it has U-Turn, but its Speed is pitiful so it can't get out of the way of its checks and counters without having to take a hit first. Therefore, it usually ends up hard switching out of its checks and counters, giving the opponent a free turn to do whatever they please. Torn-T doesn't allow for that, and that's exactly what makes it so broken.
It's not about the u-turn being weak, because damage isn't the point, it more concerns the second part of your post: that the lo damage will rack up.
And therein lies the problem.
Specs=Stronger, no recoil, can't change moves
LO=Not strong enough sometimes, lots of residual, can switch moves, can grab momentum from almost everything
Each set has its flaws which prevent it from being the "perfect" poke that the pro-ban people are trying to envision it as
Also, weavile is fantastic against Torn-T. Outspeeds, so it either has to eat the ice punch (1hko) or switch out (pursuit). Ice shard is great utility, can 1hko heatran after rocks with low kick, etc.
@ Lavos spawn Don't just cherry pick what you think you can argue against, everything in that post is connected, separate it, and you're missing the point. Please read it again. U-turn+LO+SR and any prior damage wears tornadus-t out, fast. Often times, just switching out is better due to gaining more recovery, which makes U-turn a liability on a weak tornadus. Tell me, would you really use U-turn on a tornauds with 30%> health, or would rather switch out? Just because it can U-turn out of its checks doesn't mean it can't be worn out like they can.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
Is there an end to the shitty "checks" people keep suggesting to deal with Tornadus-T? If it's absolutely dreadful against the large majority of OU, don't suggest that people use it as a check to Torn-T, which is almost always seen on Rain teams, which all pack several very solid checks to Weavile, not the least of which is our other suspect, Keldeo. Maybe Weavile will shine someday, but that time is not now, so shut up.
Uh huh. Torn-T is only going to get worn down from U-Turning out of its checks if rocks are up (which you should never assume, it's not a precondition to OU battles lmao) and it doesn't play conservatively with its health. Even if rocks are up, it can predict the switch into a check, U-Turn out, come back in later and only have lost a net total of 2%. The scenario you propose is where Tornadus-T is U-Turning out against a Ferrothorn. Didn't I already describe how easily Torn-T beats Ferro 1v1 just a few posts ago? Why the hell is Torn going to get out of the way of something it easily 2HKOs?
Don't accuse me of cherry picking. You're the only one doing it here.
I have used weavile to great success on a weatherless team (deo d+gengar+weavile is great)
Looking at top 50 ou stats, Weavile beats all of the following 1 on 1:
4 | Terrakion
7 | Tornadus-Therian
8 | Latios
9 | Tyranitar
10 | Heatran
11 | Dragonite
12 | Garchomp
13 | Breloom
15 | Starmie
16 | Thundurus-Therian
18 | Latias
19 | Gengar
21 | Landorus
22 | Mamoswine
25 | Gliscor
26 | Salamence
27 | Kyurem-Black
28 | Magnezone
32 | Dugtrio
34 | Hydreigon
36 | Alakazam
37 | Espeon
41 | Lucario
47 | Landorus-Therian
49 | Celebi
50 | Haxorus
7 | Tornadus-Therian
8 | Latios
9 | Tyranitar
10 | Heatran
11 | Dragonite
12 | Garchomp
13 | Breloom
15 | Starmie
16 | Thundurus-Therian
18 | Latias
19 | Gengar
21 | Landorus
22 | Mamoswine
25 | Gliscor
26 | Salamence
27 | Kyurem-Black
28 | Magnezone
32 | Dugtrio
34 | Hydreigon
36 | Alakazam
37 | Espeon
41 | Lucario
47 | Landorus-Therian
49 | Celebi
50 | Haxorus
That is 26... more than half.
Furthermore, it beats the following with a bit of prior damage (~20%):
5 | Ferrothorn
30 | Jellicent
33 | Venusaur
40 | Hippowdon (specially defensive)
44 | Reuniclus
30 | Jellicent
33 | Venusaur
40 | Hippowdon (specially defensive)
44 | Reuniclus
So... yeah. Don't exactly see where you're coming from. Weavile is completely hit or miss... as in it destroys half the meta, and is countered by the other half.
But that doesn't matter, as its purpose is as an offensive utility, serving as a counter/check to huge threats in the meta.
Having a single weavile on a team is enough to easy the mind of tornadus in most cases, knowing that you can go in and ice punch for the ko or pursuit if it switches.
Plus that ice shard is great
And pursuit is a wonderful move
Lolno
If you struggle with tornadus and haven't gone so far as to set up rocks, then the root of your issues is obvious.
From my understanding, it was standard to assume stealth rocks in almost all situations, though I suppose that does not apply when it hampers tornadus' abilities, because tornadus it "t0ta11y br@ken!!!"
Are you seriously arguing that SR is not an assumed battle condition. Spare me, will you? SR is on everything and is almost always a given when you're in a battle. If you're suggesting it needs RS support than just proves my point as to why it isn't broken due to needing like 3 pokemon to support its ass. Politoad for hurricane, dugtrio for counters, and a spinner to get rid of rocks. Also the whole switching out of ferrothorn was just an example of residual damage adding up and how quickly it can be worn down, to your dismay.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
Terrakion, Heatran, Mamoswine, and Magnezone all don't die to Low Kick and all OHKO back, so you actually OHKO a lot less than half of the metagame, get your facts straight. And who says Tyranitar's going to be staying in to eat that Low Kick when Skarmory's waiting in the wings? You presume they're all 1v1 matchups, they're not. And you ignore the fact that Weavile can't switch into shit, it's OHKO'd by almost every neutral attacker in OU. You can Pursuit non-Scarfed Latios and Latias? That's nice. So can Scizor and Tyranitar, and they're both miles above Weavile in terms of overall usefulness.
Stealth Rock isn't an assumed battle condition, and you'd have to be stupid to think that it is. Go start up a battle on Showdown for me real quick, will you? Do you see rocks on the field in the team preview? Then they're not omnipresent. Setting up rocks in BW2 is harder than ever before with the plethora of offensive threats to deal with and constant pressure on both players to stay on top of the opponent's sweepers. And what's the big deal if Torn-T needs support to sweep? If it SWEEPS with SUPPORT, then you give it SUPPORT so it can SWEEP. Your line of reasoning is nothing but a circular fallacy. Okay, it needs support. That's nice. With that support, just three simple Pokemon, it can wreck entire teams with ease. Pretty good trade if you ask me.
Let me clarify: When SR is up, Zapdos is a shitty way to attempt to check Tornadus-T. When it isn't up, it does a better job, but still gets walled pathetically easily by a plethora of common OU Pokemon, and set up on by many others, not the least of which is Terrakion. SR isn't always up, and that's a fact. I hope you're not going to dispute that like super bad over here.
Keep your argument consistent lol
shooting down zapdos for being sr weak and therefore being a terrible torn-t counter, and then arguing that you can't assume stealth rock is up when you are facing tornadus-t? lol okay gg
the only part of these posts i agree with is that the zapdos set posted isn't great; theres no reason not to be running heat wave and i'd argue its almost dumb not to atm.
First bolded part- yes. Usually one pokemon on each team has the capacity to set up rocks.
Second bolded part -then it isn't broken. Volcarona requires the same amount of support to sweep. Dragonite and salamence need even less support than Tornadus. If it can't plow through everything independently then it isn't broken. If your prerequisite of what is broken means that pokemon x needs the right support then we might as well ban everything because they all function that well with half the team to back it up.
third bolded part-The only person embarrassing themselves is you. You're claiming that something that requires half the team to support itself is broken. That's so fucking moronic it's unreal.
Detailed Result:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 108.98% - 128.79%
Guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Mamoswine: 107.48% - 126.32%
Guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Magnezone: 85.41% - 100.36%
6.25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Heatran: 94.74% - 111.46%
68.75% chance to OHKO
And you were saying?
And who says skarmory will be in the wings?
And why would weavile switch into something? Maybe I U-turn into it, because my scizor was in the wings previously. Or maybe I sacced something. Or maybe something just died. If you have used it, you obviously haven't used it correctly. If you haven't, it's obvious that you haven't.
And I think it's funny that you said I ignored it considering I explicitly stated that weavile kills half the tier, and is demolished by the other half.
I think it's even funnier that you managed to find 4 pokes (that weren't even correct) that were ONE hit kod, and threw weavile out.
Not to mention the fact that stealth rock is the only unviersally accepted battle condition, as evidenced by every other thread and post discussing the matter besides yours...
And if it needs so much support to sweep, it isn't uber. "With that support, just three simple Pokemon, it can wreck entire teams with ease" Giving up THREE pokemon slots just to support tornadus is FAR more support than something like excadrill, or genesect, or blaziken, or salamence, or terrakion needs to sweep.
I think the true roadblock here (besides your obvious pre-determined and completely grounded in stone bias) is your ego.
Why does zapdos give a shit if it gets walled, considering it is a wall? You seem to be extremely willing to place pokes into positions they aren't supposed to fill, and then complain that others are doing the same to tornadus-t. Make up your mind, silly pants.
And the moves were irrelevant, I slapped on tbolt to ko and 3 fillers. Add it u-turn/volt switch and twave over something or w/e, that wasn't the point. The point was that zapdos walls tornadus to hell and back, and if it carries volt switch, it can steal the very momentum your wonderful u-turn attempts to take
LOL What the fuck else would it be carrying?
LOL Oh god, excuse the fuck out of me but...
| 40 | Keldeo | 50184 | 5.652% | 38666 | 5.394% |
| 29 | Tornadus-Therian | 60712 | 6.837% | 47474 | 6.623% |
November, normal ou
And now look at them.
If you have resorted to "LOL Usage" arguments, then I can tell you're repotoire is exhausted and continuing this is pointless, considering it was just shown that weavile 1hkos half the meta. Cheers
Lavos
Banned deucer.
Didn't know you were calcing Weavile with LO inclusive, you should mention that next time, because without Life Orb it has a 0% chance to OKO any of the four Pokemon I listed that I thought you had gotten wrong because of your failure to mention that crucial detail. I just want to keep things consistent.
I'm busy right now, so I'll get back to this later.
I'm busy right now, so I'll get back to this later.
I assume this was the normal OU ladder since the suspect (ie the ladder where actually good people play on) stats say the following
3 | Keldeo | 3556 | 20.246% | 2650 | 18.104% |
7 | Tornadus-Therian | 2918 | 16.614% | 2349 | 16.048% |
Both these pokemon are highly used amoung players with a good degree of skill. I don't really get your point that you are trying to make. Are you claiming that because they experience low usage they are not that good?
Regardless, please don't be rude, or I will edit your posts.
And the response
Pretty much all pokemon need support to sweep. Blaziken might have needed Slowbro to sweep, and the swift swimmers needed Rain (aka the same support that Tornadus-T needs) in order to be halfway decent. Lets be clear here, I am not, in any way, shape or form, comparing Tornadus-T to Swift Swimmers, merely pointing out that we have banned many pokemon that require support to sweep, ergo, needing "support" doesn't make Tornadus-T not broken.
Keep it civil guys or I WILL start infracting for some of the abusive posts being thrown around here.
I was referring to the argument lavos made that weavile is bottom ou, so it must be awful. Thus I pointed out that keldeo was bottom ou, and torn was mid ou previously, and that said nothing about their offensive prowess now, thus usage hasn't much implication on ability, especially past usage.
GINGA EDIT And you ignored my point, that those pokemon were actually high in usage among decent players which doesn't actually help your argument lol
He was referring to lavos's argument that Tornadus needed half of the team to support him properly, and that wasn't too much support.
I think it's the varying level of support is what makes Tornadus-t not broken. Usually blaziken or the SS needed one pokemon to back them up so that they can sweep w/o trouble. Tornadus needs several pokemon to support so it can function at the same level as them. Just sayin' Although I think blaziken may need more help, but that's a totally unrelated debate!
Weavile is not a good check. Yes, you get the clean OHKO with Ice Punch at least 57% of the time* but Weavile MUST come in on the revenge, as even 4 Atk LO U-turn threatens an OHKO after rocks* and by that time Tornadus-T has potentially already done the damage it needs to.
Even then, it's still a guessing game. Do you Pursuit, expecting them to switch, or do you Ice Punch for the KO? Pursuit* on the switch will hurt, badly, enough for a narrow chance to KO after Rocks, and a guaranteed KO after Rocks and LO damage, but if they predict the Pursuit you just lost your check, whether it's through U-turn (which OHKOs after Rocks and LO), Hurricane, or Torn-T's coverage.
*:
Even then, it's still a guessing game. Do you Pursuit, expecting them to switch, or do you Ice Punch for the KO? Pursuit* on the switch will hurt, badly, enough for a narrow chance to KO after Rocks, and a guaranteed KO after Rocks and LO damage, but if they predict the Pursuit you just lost your check, whether it's through U-turn (which OHKOs after Rocks and LO), Hurricane, or Torn-T's coverage.
*:
252Atk Weavile (Neutral) Ice Punch vs 4HP/0Def Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 92% - 110% (278 - 330 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 57% chance to OHKO.
4Atk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Weavile (Neutral): 65% - 78% (186 - 220 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Life Orb Weavile (Neutral) Pursuit vs 4HP/0Def switching Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 65% - 76% (195 - 229 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
4Atk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Weavile (Neutral): 65% - 78% (186 - 220 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Life Orb Weavile (Neutral) Pursuit vs 4HP/0Def switching Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 65% - 76% (195 - 229 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
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