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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Dec 25, 2012.

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  1. hotcoldyay

    hotcoldyay

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    Just wanted to put it out there, but as pathetic as the zombie may seem, a tricked iron ball/lagging tail from sableye completely cripples tornadus-t for the rest of the game. I've tried sableye out for this mission, and hes pretty dang good at it unless he gets hit with hurricane and gets confused. But in order to do this, I've had to play prediction games and get tornadus t to use superpower, make a correct switch in, or send it out while its still fresh. Suprisingly, sableye with 220 spD(as the analysis has the evs plus calm nature spread) can take a hurricane from the lo set at full or around 95-96% health, so unless it gets confused, you can cripple big bird's ugly cousin with trick.

    but i agree with masterful. If you need to go out at all lengths like this to kill off one pokemon, you know it needs to go.
  2. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Since I use Ditto, I love seeing Tornadus-T. I've had so many games where I swept Offensive Rain just by revenging Torn-T to sweep the whole enemy team with Torn-T Ditto. Just have to preserve Ditto longer than they preserve Rotom-W / Jirachi (not too hard). I think that just shows how awesome Torn-T is though.
  3. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Couple of things here, firstly, Venusaur beats Zapdos due to +2 Sludge Bomb KOing with SR (common battle condition?), Celebi has a decent shot if SR is up and it packs HP Ice (with NP) which I am encountering more often to nail the Dragonite people use to cockblock Celebi. That one might be a little situational tho for your taste. Volcarona wins if Rain isn't up (something id bear in mind if I was facing Zapdos), Latias actually beats Zapdos depending on the moves Zapdos runs (if Roar then Latias can outroar it, if Toxic Latias can run Sub), and Rank doesn't give a shit and will CM up as a last poke, same for Jirachi (under Rain). So be careful here as some of these senarios Zapdos doesn't always win :/ .

    O.k I am v. confused. There are 2 really "good" spinners in my personal opinion: Starmie and Tentacruel, and Ferrothorn beats Starmie so yea. I guess that you are talking about Ferrothorn, but I don't really consider Forretress "beating" Ferrothorn, which can Leech Seed stall + IB + Hazard spam fairly easily, and Forry will have to cut its losses sooner or later. Sure, you can run Pain Split, but then you lose Volt Switch / Gyro Ball / HP Ice / Rapid Spin / Spikes / SR or something else im forgetting which in turn makes you vulnerable to something else. I don't consider you running a situational move such as Pain Split as "winning", can my Ferrothorn run HP Fire?

    Lastly, worth noting that Forretress doesn't do that great against Rain anyway, Rain boosted sclads hurt, its hazards will be spun, and its set up fodder for a large number of things.

    I will make you a deal bro, why don't you tell me the 4 attacks you are running on Zapdos, and I (and lavos and anyone else who wants too) will tell you everything you lose to. Remember, Zapdos is NOT running Thunderbolt / Heat Wave / Volt Switch / Roost / Substitute / HP Ice / HP [Anything Else] / Roar / Toxic, it must pick and choose what it runs, and therefore what it loses too. At the moment, you have a fucking 8 attack Zapdos or something, and asking us to counter it!!! Regardless, Terrakion and Tyranitar both do very well against most Zapdos sets, and I could mention many, many other pokmeon that also would win. Mamoswine I bet can Icicle Spear Zapdos to hell, (I bet Cloyster also outspeeds before a shell smash boost), Sun would shit all over you, Sand wouldn't care, and you would lose a TON of momentum against HO teams. In addition, its not THAT amazing against other special attackers. Specs Toed for example can and will still point it with high powered water attacks, Keldeo is in the same boat, Latios has a LO Psyshock and a DM (or Surf its a Rain Latios), Thundurus-T nukes the shit out of it, Rotom-W scores a 2KO with Hydro Pump under Rain etc etc. Sure, some of these senarios are situational maybe but the point is that there are MANY other special sweepers that Zapdos flat out loses too, really making it an overspecialised Tornadus-T counter. Sure I bet you could come up with a few other pokemon it beats, but you cannot hide from the facts, if Zapdos was actually good in this metagame, it would be used more, period. As it stands its only "o.k" against a few (strong) OU threats, but thats really it, don't try claiming its amazing or whatever when all it really does is beat Tornadus-T and a few other things, while losing to a shitload of other things.

    I find it ironic that you brought this up after bringing up your 5(?) attack Zapdos but I digress...

    Its true that their are 2 Tornadus-T sets, and people often bring up different ones. I, for example, am almost always discussing LO Tornadus, due to me having good experiences with it and due to the fact that it can switch attacks making it harder to deal with. Kd24 on the other hand, is discussing Specs Tornadus due to him having better experiences with it, so its personal preference. Both sets are fairly common, so when responding to the pro ban arguements, remember that there ARE 2 sets, and perhapes your counters against one set might not work against another. For example, good luck using Tyranitar for your LO Tornadus counter, which wins in various ways (nor do I need to mention them all). No-one is listing LO + Specs + Hurricane + Superpower + Focus Blast + HP Ice + Sleep Talk + Rain Dance + Taunt + U-Turn in their posts, fucking READ them and then read your own posts which contain pokemon with more than 4 attacks (I counted the Zapdos with Thunderbolt / Heat Wave / Volt Switch / Roost / Roar) before calling other people out thanks.

    ANYWAY, just check out peoples posts, should be clear as to what set that are talking about :)

    Prolly by spamming Hurricane and then switching? I know it beats Rotom-W this way, which everyone was hyping up as a counter so maybe u want to reword this slightly or something. IDK.

    Anyway I have consumed a fair amount of alcohol so I apologise if I made any massive spelling / grammar errors or if I came across as overly hostile or something in my posts, its not my intention and ill fix it when I wake tyvm tyvm
  4. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I had to use a chople Magnezone on my weatherless team to break 1900 JUST to beat Tornadus-T. In turn I discovered a Terrakion/Lucario/Keldeo/Alakazam and friends lure that gets some fun surprise ko's :D. I even tried analytic on it, which actually wasn't that bad (don't use analytic unless you're exclusively using it as a lure...).

    So in any case, my point is if I have to literally resort to chople Magnezone to handle Tornadus-T, I'd propose that its broken, as would others.

    I'd love to hear opinions, please respond :)

    Incase anybody is wondering, if you don't get the chance to trap a steel: the idea is to double switch Magnezone into a Terrakion/Alakazam etc and then laugh when they attack you and you ohko back :). In the case of Terrakion it can check most of his movepool barring close combat and bluff a scarf :D. Don't ever revenge with chople zone!
  5. peng

    peng

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    I think the key thing about Zapdos is that its the only Torn-T counter out there that isn't 100% cockblocked by p much every other member of a rain team.
    • SDef Jirachi - can't touch Ferrothorn for any damage whatsoever and becomes Spikes fodder, still 2HKOd by Keldeo / Specs Politoed and gets screwed by Dugtrio - overall is not a good match-up vs rain
    • SDef Bronzong - same as above except it doesn't even have recovery to fall back on, and Tornadus-T just completely outlasts it.
    • SDef Skarmory - Unless you are running Taunt, all it does is Spike alongside Ferrothorn and doesn't cause any real problems for Keldeo or Politoed at all
    • Rotom-W - already established this is a pretty terrible Torn-T counter already. Outlasted by Torn-T half the time, not to mention I see a ton of TWave variants fsr which just means you spend all day doing 2% to ferro with vswitch and getting gradually worn down by u-turn + rocks
    • Zapdos - SR weakness means its not as good against Torn-T in a vaccuum, but at least it has ways to threaten the other members of rain teams. Ferrothorn is only 3hkod by Heat Wave in rain but if you've let rain stay up every time ferrothorn switches in, you're probably playing poorly. Unlike the others, Zapdos can also directly threaten Politoed and Tentacruel.

    I'd rather have an SR weak Torn-T counter than have something that is really good vs torn but doesn't match-up well vs every other rain mon!
  6. ala

    ala
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    A 3hko on what amounts to a Super Effective (2x) hit in the Rain? Lol. So if Ferro gets 3hko'd and doesn't wall Zapdos, why do you think that Zapdos is a counter to Torn-T when it gets 3hko'd by Hurricane after SR? At least try to be consistent with your argument brah. Also, before you say it has Roost, Ferro can just as easily pack Leech Seed/Protect to wall Zapdos all day too.

    Also if you're using max HP max Sp.def Zapdos, that's the most useless pokemon ever, it hits like a grandma and even shit like Tyranitar is able to outspeed.
  7. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    Rotom-W is no counter to Tornadus-T, but I feel he isn't getting the credit he deserves. Rotom-W is a check (and yeah most broken Pokemon have checks) but the difference is that Rotom-W is usually good enough to keep Tornadus-T at bay long enough for an offensive team to come up with a solid game plan to get rid of it (e.g. late game sweep with RP Terrakion / Landorus-I (or -T) / Scarf Keldeo late game sweep, etc.) Also, Rotom-W is a good matchup against rain which makes it a legitimate counter since its not only used for Torn-T: it grabs momentum and threatens most rain abusers. You guys keep talking about how Tornadus-T can outlast Rotom-W but Rotom-W just needs to keep it at bay from destroying you so you can counter it later with your HO checks (which consist of, like, all the top threats). Also, VSwitch is a great means of grabbing momentum. Like a Ferro switch in means you can go to Breloom and put Ferro to sleep (and I'd actually rather put Torn-T to sleep; it makes Banded TTar an instant counter since they always switch and Pursuit fucks its brains out. Not to mention that its unreliable use of Hurricane is a perfect way for Terrakion to SEdge the shit outta it).

    However, Tornadus-T is very overcentralizing. Rotom-W + Jirachi have their own niches but they've obviously spiked in usage since Torn-T. I still think its broken (and that Zappy is no where near coutering Specs Nadus after rocks: and Torn-T murders stall) but I just wanted to clear up Rotom-W since I think everyone has the wrong impression on it.
  8. preserve

    preserve

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    The decision to predict the right or wrong play comes every where in the game and it doesn't make a pokemon broken or a pokemon not a good check or counter.

    An example can be a scizor coming in on alakazam with its sash broken. Should I bullet punch predicting him to stay in or Pursuit predicting him to switch? Does this make Scizor a bad check or counter? I don't think so.

    I don't know if people are forgetting this or just simply ignoring it. Tornadus isn't regenerating much if you have stealth rocks up. Stealth rocks do 25 percent damage while regenerator heals 33 percent which means regenerator is actually healing him by 8 percent of his health, not to mention possible life orb recoil and other status effects(burn, paralysis). All you have to do is bring out a pokemon that can threaten to kill it or do a lot of damage to it safely forcing it to flee and the hopfully he won't be healing enough for you to KO him later.
  9. Shokwav

    Shokwav

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    This is a poor comparison. The standard Zam can't do shit to Scizor besides a neutral focus blast, and 99% of Scizors coming in are probably going to pursuit trap zam because there's no risk otherwise (besides the rare HP Fire).
  10. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    LO TORNADUS HERE

    OK lets simplify this with numbers:

    How many Defensive Checks does Tornadus-Therian have?
    5 (add more if i'm wrong but I doubt I am).
    SDef Jirachi
    SDef Rotom-w
    SDef Bronzong
    SDef Skarmory
    Zapdos

    Now let's look at how Rotom-W skarm and Zapdos fare against Tornadus-Therian with uturn + sr (The following chains can be lengthened to assure a 100% loss for Rotom-W + Zapdos + Skarm but I think nobody will disagree that one U-turn out is unnecessary while others might bitch about 2 u-turns).

    sets for all of them will be 252 hp / 252 sdef+ and Tornadus will run 252 Spatk, with a minus attack nature, i'd use hasty but then people would be like "oh its so frail"
    ----------------------
    ROTOM-W

    Tornadus-T is in. You switch in Rotom-W (not Breloom [;) against Tornadus-T. SR is up.

    Rotom-W is at 87.5% now.


    Now Tornadus-T uses U-turn. This does 20% on average.

    Rotom-W is at 67.5% now.

    Tornadus-T goes into like Terrakion or something: Rotom-W is forced out. Add leftovers to Rotom-W:

    Rotom-W is at 73.5%.

    Now the game continues blah blah.
    You get Tornadus-T in. Now you use Hurricane. Rotom-W switches in. It takes 12.5% from SR.

    Rotom-W is at 61%.

    Now it gets hit by Hurricane, which does 28% on average.

    Rotom-W is at 33%. Add leftovers: Rotom-W is at 39.5%


    Now, Tornadus-T uses Focus Blast, which does 37.3% on average.

    Rotom-W is at 2.2%.


    So, Rotom-W can check Tornadus-T if you make sure to never switch in Rotom-W against anybody else because if Rotom-W takes more than 2.2% from anything then it loses to Tornadus.

    -------
    ZAPDOS

    Tornadus-T is in. You switch in Zapdos against Tornadus-T. SR is up.

    Zapdos is at 75% now.


    Now Tornadus-T uses U-turn. This does 10% on average.

    Zapdos is at 65% now.

    Tornadus-T goes into like Terrakion or something: Zapdos is forced out. Add leftovers to Zapdos:

    Zapdos is at 71.5%.

    Now the game continues blah blah.
    You get Tornadus-T in. Now you use Hurricane. Zapdos switches in. It takes 25% from SR.

    Zapdos is at 56.5%.

    Now it gets hit by Hurricane, which does 25% on average.

    Zapdos is at 31.5%. Add leftovers: Zapdos is at 37.75%


    Now it gets hit by Hurricane, which does 25% on average.
    Zapdos is at 12.75%.


    So if Zapdos has taken more than 13% damage, it loses to Tornadus-Therian.

    --
    SKARM

    Tornadus-T is in. You switch in skarm against Tornadus-T. SR is up.

    skarm is at 87.5% now.


    Now Tornadus-T uses U-turn. This does 3% (lol) on average.

    skarm is at 84.5% now.

    Tornadus-T goes into like SpecsToad or something: skarm is forced out. Add leftovers to skarm:

    skarm is at 91.75%.

    Now the game continues blah blah.

    You get Tornadus-T in. Now you use Hurricane. skarm switches in. It takes 12.5% from SR.

    skarm is at 78.25%.

    Now it gets hit by Hurricane, which does 34.2% on average.

    skarm is at 44.05%. Add leftovers: skarm is at 50.3%


    Now it gets hit by Focus Blast, which does 45% on average.
    skarm is at 5%


    so if skarm has taken more than 5% damage then it too loses to tornadus-therian.

    ----------------

    tl;dr skarm zapdos rotom get boned by u-turning out the first time
    only spdef rachi and bronzong are actually good checks

    @ below 2hkoed by hurricane ): so youre a 50% check
  11. Vemane

    Vemane

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    In terms of defensive checks, Specially defensive hippo is my favorite.

    -makes hurricane's accuracy 70%, immediately reducing threat.
    -Can tank a hurricane (and oftentimes 2, assuming the second hits with lolfocus miss accuracy) and heal
    -opponent now has to send out politoed again and such
    -sandstorm+hurricane lo+u-turn lo+stealth rock = not 100% torn t anymore
    -hippo can ice fang and such
  12. malefic

    malefic man of fine mettle
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    Feel that this statement articulates succinctly my thoughts.

    Over-popularizing rain and causing teams to over-prepare for it has, I feel, caused Torn-T to warp the metagame rather unpleasantly. The metagame should not be defined by just one, very specific sort of team. We should say things like "weather defines the current metagame" or "Hyper Offense defines the current metagame", not "Rain teams running Torn-T define the current meta". 'Mons like Zapdos have been brought into the limelight simply because they can deal with -to debatable degrees- Rain teams running Torn-T. It's a pity, since it has only just had its time under the sun -er, rain- following Genesect's ban, but Torn-T can't stay OU.

    (more strongly, i feel Hurricane, all things considered, is not a good move but that's opening another can of worms)

    Keldeo, on the other hand, should stay as (each of its sets) can be worked around, even without its solid counters, with an otherwise well-constructed team.
  13. Lavos Spawn

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    yeah good for you, only one problem: it can't switch in. as ssbbm correctly states even max/max+ hippo is 2hko'd by life orb hurricane (even without hazards) and the admittedly rare grass knot does like 80% so you're relying on hippo to:

    1. dodge at least 1/2 hurricanes (51% chance)
    2. not get taunted next turn to prevent recovery or phazing
    3. get back to full health for when the bird comes back for more

    not only that, you also assume that torn-t doesn't u-turn, because if it does you're probably staring down a politoed that, at worst, can scald you for 60%. that's one awful “check”.
  14. masterful

    masterful

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    How is it possible to sweep with Scarf Tornadus-T (Ditto)? 110 base SpA is probably the worst part about Tornadus-T, and he really needs a Life Orb or some Specs to do much sweeping.

    Big porblem with Hippo is that, if they U-turn, you're condemning one of your pokes to a Specs, Rain-boosted Hydro Pump from Politoed, guaranteed. Nobody wants that. Oh and apparently both the specs AND Life Orb sets 2HKO you with Hurricane...so nice check you got there.

    If that Alakazam can OHKO Scizor, then yes, that's exactly what it means. Luckily, most can't, so a full health Scizor takes on far less risk Pursuiting than a frail-ass Weavile does.
  15. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    I thought a check is something that can't switch in, but forces out pokemon?

    Pocket EDIT: correct
  16. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    @Sbbm:

    Wash gets ChestoRest, which allows it to come in more. Not saying your wrong but I wanted to point this out as well. (On iPod so sorry for lack of content in this post).

    Rest Wash checks LO Torn better than lefties but its worse than lefties vs. Specs so it depends on which one your weakest to imo, but just as Torn can't run both his sets neither can Wash but wash is a pretty damn good check to Torn imo for offensive teams.
  17. VN.

    VN. the birds pt. 1
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    How is it good when Hurricane is doing 47.86% - 56.43%, 1 layer of hazards and its a guarenteed 2HKO even though what's already there is p much a guarentee. Don't see how it's "Immediately reducing the threat either" lol, 70% isn't a guarenteed miss, you arent going to win relying on 30% odds. Assuming Hurricane will just miss is ridiculous. Also I feel like the last line is really vague??? Ice Fang is only doing

    to Tornadus, so Ice Fanging and such isn't really gonna win the match since it cant straight up OHKO after an Hcane. Also even if you pull it off and kill Tornadus-T Hippowdon is going to be at like 10% so you're sort of fucked if you were relying on it to beat something else on the opponents team like a CM Jirachi.
  18. zpattack12

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    I think ssbbm has it right. Everyone hails those pokes as checks, but they are very close and in battle, one extra switch in to SR screws all those pokes over. It is over centralizing if only two pokes are reliable checks to it, and Torn-t recovers damage by switching. It is very difficult to beat Torn-t and with 2 pokes that beat it reliably, it isn't to hard to build a team to beat those targets especially since it gets u turn and Regenerator.
  19. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Skarmory uses Roost, Zapdos uses Roost. Rotom-W uses Pain Split. Argument, over.

    Tornadus-T isn't beating either of those 2 "reliably enough" for anyone to not call them straight up counters.

    The problem I have when reading this thread over and over is how many people seem displeased that they cannot counter tornadus-T all match. A counter only has to be able to counter it once, the rest is your own problem. So saying "Rotom-W / Jolteon" can only take one Hurricane is not a valid point nor a basis for saying he "has too few counters." They can both take a Hurricane and force Tornadus-T out with a OHKO threat.

    The rest that happens in battle is your own fault. From laddering extensively I find Tornadus-T to not be the easiest to get into a battle (certainly not a Genesect) and if you limit the number of times it can come in to simple revenge killing eventually gets backed into a corner.

    Seriously, you guys need to stop romanticizing and overstating whatever suspect you don't like. This thing is not that powerful on paper or in practice. I often have to save him until the late game to get a sweep because it just takes too many hazards and removal of certain things for him to just spam hurricane and win. I am also seeing teams with 2-3 Scarf users that you have to be very careful about fighting. I figured an "Uber" would have a much easier time at fucking shit up from the get-go. So much for the "sweeping easily" aspect.

    The issue I have with this argument is that I found this new suspect test metagame to be vastly different from the metagame just a week ago. I've used Tornadus-T extensively on my main team in both occasions and only now are anti-rain teams polluting the ladder. Before the recent announcement of it as a suspect, I didn't see Jirachi / Rotom-W shitstorms all over the place. This is a lot of people testing and preparing for Tornadus-T and not an accurate representation of the actual metagame in the previous weeks.

    No one prepares for Keldeo because they don't have to. Celebi / Latias / Jellicent / Tentacruel, etc. are on teams already anyway and sometimes in combination with each other. However, what I can tell you is that since the Tornadus-T hype machine got rolling last week, my Tornadus-T is becoming worse and worse. Nothing about using this guy points to Uber. He is a good revenge killer, but anything else than that he is unremarkable (by Uber standards).
  20. Meru

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    Maybe this argument works for most pokes, but when Tornadus-T has Regenerator and its counter doesn't, it definitely needs to be able to come in more than once.

    Except Keldeo is being suspected too. How come nobody overprepares for him? I doubt those people are making overprepared teams solely because Tornadus-T is a suspect. More than likely, they're making overprepared teams because they're tired of losing to Tornadus-T's immense strength.
  21. TheDoctor1

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    I don't understand these comments about zap being useless. @ginganinja: you are right when u say certain pokes can counter zap depending on the set he runs, but the same can be said for almost every poke in the game so I don't see we're u are going with that. So toxic zap loses if Latias subs but toxic zap wins if he doesn't have sub so it comes down to move set choice in that mu.

    @ssbbm: as said before you can roost with zap so he is clearly a tornadus t counter.

    Since when is ferro beating zap? I didn't see where this was posted, is it b/c of leech seed? B/c I don't believe my zap has ever lost to a ferro in the rain at the most he might cause you to switch which against ferro should not be a big deal.

    I am not saying zap is the best poke but he is clearly a useable poke in 5th gen ou and he is a strong counter to torn t.

    I am curious how people's feelings about zap might change when his dw ability comes out
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    In the rain your Heat Wave is only going to be doing under 30% damage per hit to Specially Defensive Ferrothorn, so all it has to do is hit you with a Leech Seed and then alternate between Protect and Power Whip / Gyro Ball / Spikes or whatever else. It's gaining approximately 12.5% from Leech Seed + 6.25% from Leftovers = 18.75% per turn x 2 (Protect) = 37.5% health for every 30% Heat Wave you're able to get in. Simply put, it outstalls you, forcing you to Roost a bunch of times and wear yourself down so Torn-T can come in later and clean up with ease.

    Also, please stop saying without any justification that Zapdos is a counter to Torn-T without reading any of the above posts that explain why it is most definitely not a counter.
  23. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    I am going to assume that you only skimmed my post as perhaps if you had taken the time to read both my post and the guy I was quoting maybe it would have been a little more clear.

    My post was in response to Alexwolf who claimed that Zapdos beat CM Latias, I kindly pointed out that this was not the case depending on the moveset (It would need Roost + Roar + Toxic to "wall" Latias and beat its 2 common CM sets which leaves it without Heat Wave). Alexwolf asked why Zapdos was bad and I responded that he tell us what moves he was using on his Zapdos, for us to better explain to him how Zapdos struggles in the OU Metagame.

    I am well aware that pokemon can be countered depending on what move it runs, you missed my point. My point was that Zapdos really really needs most, if not all of these moves to be effective, it just lacks the room. Salamence, might want to run Outrage / DD / Roost / EQ / FB / Hydro Pump / Dragon Claw / Draco Meteor but it doesn't need to run all of those mvoes to be effective, however Zapdos needs HP Ice to handle the multitude if dragons, Heat Wave for steels, Roar for phazing out set up sweepers, Electric STAB for an attacking move, Roost for recovery, Substitute to block status and scouting and Toxic to stall out certain bulky pokemon it might not beat otherwise. My point, was that for Zapdos to be really good in OU, it needs as much of those moves as it can to be effective in OU, but with only 4 moveslots, it is doomed to fail against quite a few pokemon depending on what you miss out on. Its just bait sometimes, pure and simple, unlike other pokemon which might suffer from 4MSS.
  24. Shokwav

    Shokwav

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    203
    252SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Hurricane vs 252HP/252SpDef Lightningrod Zapdos (+SpDef): 22% - 27% (87 - 104 HP).
  25. LCampoy8

    LCampoy8

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    The only true counter to Torn-T is Wish+Protect Jirachi but sadly it can easily get trapped by Dugtrio.
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