np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[MMII]

So a quick summary of my experiences with Torna-T (just something I'm typing on an uncomfortable keyboard while waiting for PS to log in):

Against Stall: It has plenty of switch-in opportunities that lets it spam its Hurricanes which will bite anything barring resists/blobs. Even then Superpower letsit get around most of those. You really need a hard counter (read Wish + Protect Jirachi) or a ScarfGoth to deal with it. Soft counters or strong checks just aren't enough as the game will be long (you are stall, remember) and Confusion hax almost inevitable.

Against HO: Torna has a hard time switching in but once it is in trouble is right around the corner. Generally these teams don't have anything that can switch into it more than once so it has to scrap something to bring in their revenge killer to force it out (hopefully the Torna player doesn't bring something in to set up on it). The best way to get around it is to set up a sweep that the bird can't stop. Basically, Torna plays like a revenge killer that can't be set up on, worn down or trapped and even threatens a sweep. (Tailwind is legit y'all)

Against Balanced: This can really go both ways as they mix up both Stall and HO although the better balanced teams tend to have the strongest shot at beating Torna. These are the guys that tend to run Rachi or SpDef Rotom-W as they don't face as much competition for their roles as they do in the other two styles due to their lacking power or viability of Chansey/Blissey.

In general, the only way of beating Torna-T is pulling off an early sweep (which isn't easy) or packing a long term counter (which are rare and most somewhat niche). It's pretty easy to see that when backed up with proper team support Torna-T is putting the opposing team in an uphill battle as their win conditions are limited and pressured.


Also I just want to mention (even though it probably already has) that revenge killing or changing weather are not viable ways to reliably deal with Tornadus-T. You should never assume that the OP will throw their mon to their revenge killer. (ignoring Outrage) Rather, revenge killers force a switch and so their effectiveness relys on how much this inconviences the threat. If said mon is weak to hazards and/or has difficulty setting up to sweep, then a revenge killer is a viable check as you have managed to deal with a threat that most likely will not be reappearing to place the same pressure. Thus revenge killing is a horrible way to deal with Torna as it has zero problems with hazards and does not require any set up to pose a threat or sweep. As for weather, although it is true that 70% is far to unreliable to attempt to use Tornadus without Rain support it is not so shaky that it merits any assumption that Hurricane will miss. Even under Sand, you cannot attempt to set up your SD Luke or ignore Tornadus's switch-in. It may get you a happy hax but is no call for gutsy moves. This is made worse by the fact that Hippowdon, Tyranitar, and Abomasnow can not safely switch-in meaning you will have to deal with the rest of the team in order to gain the small bonus from winning the weather war (as far as Tornadus is concerned at least). Sun is an exception in that 50% is really trash and it is equally gutsy to expect a hit as it is to bank on a miss. However, Ninetails does not like SR and a coin flip can still go wrong so try to avoid using Growth in front of Tornadus if you. (and don't expect SpDef Ninetails to be comming in for free all day)

 

[Pocket]

ssbm, you just proved that Zapdos / Rotom-W / Skarmory / etc are counters to Tornadus-T. Even in the scenario favoring for Tornadus-T that you have just described, these mons were able to force out Torn-T twice. In a less optimal setting, where both players are at an equal playing field, it wont go as smoothly as you've illustrated for the Torn-T player. Let's also not forget that Zapdos / Skarmory / Rotom-W can switch into other non-threatening monsters to heal themselves.

Not to mention by the time Torn-T switches in the 3rd time, it's health is at 61% health. So it's left with that much health and the counters are still alive. By the time Torn-T counters are dead, Torn-T wont be accomplishing much afterwards.

If I were using Zapdos as a defensive Pokemon, I'll be sure to give Rapid Spin support. Yes, keeping the rocks off forever would not happen in all likelihood, but it SHOULD be off by mid-game, at which point Zapdos can Roost off and cock-block Tornadus-T to kingdom come. Claiming that Zapdos is not a counter to Tornadus-T is blatantly false.

So yes, for the purpose of this thread, Zapdos is a counter to Tornadus-T (and be sure to give it Rapid Spin support -.-). If for some reason Zapdos is a better fit to your team than the more prevalent Torn-T counters, then by all means, go for it.

Let's not make Zapdos sound like a total shit mon specialized only in countering Torn-T plz. It's certainly a lot more useful overall than when people were spamming defensive Gastrodon back in BW1. This aint something ridiculous like Stunfisk, and it's not even NECESSARY to use Zapdos to deal with Tornadus-T. It's just one of many answers we have to cockblock Torn-T.

Stop nitpicking, and focus on the big picture - how the current metagame fares against Torn-T (not how Zapdos fares against Torn-T)

 

[qedragonite]

A lot of the discussion has been about whether Tornadus T has counters, but having counters clearly doesn't preclude something from being uber. Even obvious Ubers like ExtremeKiller Arceus have solid checks in OU (Skarmory switches into anything but overheat in sun, most terrakion can revenge). What makes a pokemon Uber is the extent to which it constrains the opposing player's teambuilding and in-game strategic play.

If a player is using a balanced or offensive rain team with Tornadus T, the opponent is severely disadvantaged from the outset (unless he is running Heavy Offense or several of the checks to Torn T already discussed ad nauseum in this thread). Torn T makes rain so difficult to stop because hurricane spam has very different counters than hydro pump/thunder spam (absent the hurricane spammers, celebi and ferrothorn can check rain teams nicely). Clearly, Tornadus T (and the rain sweepers that it supports by removing walls) puts heavy constraints on teambuilding in the current metagame.

The constraint that Tornadus T puts on in-game strategic play been discussed ad nauseum in this thread. Tornadus T's speed, combined with u turn and regenerator, allow him to sieze the momentum of any match (unless the opponent is running Heavy offense and doesn't mind saccing a poke).

 

[Lavos]

ssbm, you just proved that Zapdos / Rotom-W / Skarmory / etc are counters to Tornadus-T. Even in the scenario favoring for Tornadus-T that you have just described, these mons were able to force out Torn-T twice. In a less optimal setting, where both players are at an equal playing field, it wont go as smoothly as you've illustrated for the Torn-T player. Let's also not forget that Zapdos / Skarmory / Rotom-W can switch into other non-threatening monsters to heal themselves.

Just because a Pokemon can force out Tornadus-T doesn't mean it's a counter, as you try to say. That would mean that every single Scarf user capable of OHKO'ing Torn-T is also a counter, not to mention Jolteon, Aerodactyl, even Electrode of all things would be considered counters to the bird. Fact is, they're not. Torn-T wears all of these things down and ends up killing them. They can't switch in safely and they don't have a long enough lifespan to deal with the bird in a realistic scenario. Rotom-W is the same way, for reasons we've stated several times. Skarmory gets Taunted and can't do anything subsequently, Zapdos is really bad in OU, etc. Myself and proponents of the "Torn-T is broken" argument have stated why, scroll up and read if you want. The point is, the only solid Torn-T counter is SDef Jirachi, and even that monster can be easily trapped and killed by Dugtrio and/or Substitute Magnezone. Every way you can possibly think of to stop Tornadus-T is a shaky idea at best, and that's what makes it so overpowered in today's metagame.

 

[preserve]

This is a poor comparison. The standard Zam can't do shit to Scizor besides a neutral focus blast, and 99% of Scizors coming in are probably going to pursuit trap zam because there's no risk otherwise (besides the rare HP Fire).

A lot of alakazam's use HP Fire just do deal with steal types just like scizor. Besides it's was just one of many examples of where you are in a tough predicament of either predict a switch or kill the pokemon.

 

[Pocket]

Lavos Spawn, if Zapdos can switch into Tornadus-T multiple times and can force it out / kill it, then it's a counter. Offensive Jolteon / Aerodactyl / Electrode can't switch in multiple times (maybe Aerodactyl with Roost), so they would be solid checks / shitty counters.

preserve, people who would be voting would know to ignore Shokwav's post(s), so you don't need to correct him each time.

Again, let's stop nitpicking here about Zapdos / whatever and focus on how the metagame fares against Tornadus-T. Melee Mewtwo and qedragonite are solid posts that should be emulated.

 

[Lavos]

Lavos Spawn, if Zapdos can switch into Tornadus-T multiple times and can force it out / kill it, then it's a counter. Offensive Jolteon / Aerodactyl / Electrode can't switch in multiple times (maybe Aerodactyl with Roost), so they would be solid checks / shitty counters.

That's not my point at all. I put Zapdos and Electrode in the same group because I'm making the argument that, while both can definitely force Tornadus-T out or kill it otherwise, neither are extremely viable in OU. Again, if you scroll up a bit and read posts by myself, ala, ginganinja, etc., you'll be able to understand why Zapdos is such a bad choice for the current OU metagame. Nothing that's SR weak, takes over a quarter from Hurricanes, and can't do squat to extremely common partners of the bird is a good check to the bird. Jirachi is different, because it's good utility against basically every single special attacker in the game under Rain, it resists rocks instead of being weak to them, and it has better typing than Zapdos as well. Unfortunately, even Rachi, the only true Torn-T "counter", dies to Life Orb U-Turn + Choice Banded Earthquake from Dugtrio, another common partner to the bird. As I've stated, THIS is what makes Torn-T so broken.

 

[ssbbm]

um i want to say that if you can force out a mon ONLY twice ONLY if you are at full health ONLY if they don't get ANY (you only survive by lol 5% so..) high damage rolls or confusions you're really more of a 60% counter than a 100% counter!

also, where are they going to get the chance to recover? zapdos is going to be able to recover on, um, ferrothorn and scizor maybe, but anything else on a standard rain team will threaten with either thunder or a rain boosted scald / hydro pump. ditto @ skarmory. rotom-w is even more shitty since pain split may possibly be the shittiest way to recover since rest talk.

also EDIT: i did my math wrong - zapdos can only take 3%, not 13%! so yeah, unless you're not using zapdos to check anything else (scizor comes to mind), then zapdos is completely fucked by tornadus.

but seriously, how can you call something a counter when it's ohkoed by sr + u-turn + sr + hurricane + focus blast? if it can literally only switch in once before getting KOed then it's a shitty counter. a counter is what ferrothorn is to starmie, not what moltres is to scizor!

---
anyway lets talk about nicer things like pocket said

the thing about tornadus is that it's like a weaker excadrill in where you HAVE to have your check available or you're boned. now, the anti-ban side is going to say "oh, then it's your fault if you can't keep your check alive" and "oh, any pokemon can do that!", but that's not necessarily true.

tornadus has the unique 121 speed tier where it doesn't have to waste a turn setting up to sweep; it can just immediately start spamming hurricanes. on the other hand, pokemon like thundurus will never be able to sweep because they need to spend a turn setting up its speed, so you can take advantage of that set-up turn to smash it with strong moves, even resisted ones. pokemon like thundurus can't just go and start spamming thunder, because it will be outsped by regular mons like terrakion or latios.

but, we can say that even that isn't broken: we can say that "oh look at scarf salamence, if you get rid of steel types then it can sweep too and it won't be outsped!" but what makes tornadus so strong is that it can actively lure in its checks and weaken them with u-turn WHILE MAINTAINING HEALTH WITH REGENERATOR ; tornadus, as a stand-alone pokemon, weakens its checks more effectively than any other pokemon. imagine a weaker genesect with no rock polish, but with regenerator. that's tornadus.

tl;dr tornadus should be banned because it can actively weaken its checks, and, once those checks are gone, GG

 

[Vemane]

yeah good for you, only one problem: it can't switch in. as ssbbm correctly states even max/max+ hippo is 2hko'd by life orb hurricane (even without hazards) and the admittedly rare grass knot does like 80% so you're relying on hippo to:

1. dodge at least 1/2 hurricanes (51% chance)
2. not get taunted next turn to prevent recovery or phazing
3. get back to full health for when the bird comes back for more

not only that, you also assume that torn-t doesn't u-turn, because if it does you're probably staring down a politoed that, at worst, can scald you for 60%. that's one awful “check”.

I don't intend on it switching in, as it is a check, not a counter. If anything, that 51% chance is very helpful as I can now switch in my ferrothorn/rotom w/jirachi/etc. knowing that they will have a much easier time dealing with it, all the while tornadus continues to take residual damage.

If tornadus u-turns to politoed, I then switch in my gastrodon/ferrothorn/etc and tank the hpump before double switching to something that can handle the obvious switch in.

You don't /need/ to hard counter tornadus, because you can't (at least with the logic that nothing counts as a counter since tornadus can just u-turn out, which does not seem to be going anywhere so I must live with it), you simply need multiple pokemon (weather changers, specially defensive pokes, pokes that can ko and aren't 1hkod, scarfers, etc.) that have the ability to deal with it in order to make it hard pressed for the bird to cause any major damage.

I've currently been running dual sand and I haven't had a single trouble with tornadus: tyrannitar deals wtih specs and can pursuit (or predict the switch in expecting superpower and ko with crunch/stone miss) and hippo+sandslash+ferrothorn+rotom all provide ways to deal with the life orb set.

Playing around the bird is a helluva alot easier than attempting to counter it, and it truly is not as difficult to play around as it is made out to be.

And if you REALLY want to get rid of the damn thing...

252 SpAtk Gothitelle Thunderbolt vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Tornadus-T: 60.87% - 72.24%

One stealth rock switch+life orb recoil puts tornadus in un-escapable (goth is scarved) ko range

 

[PK Gaming]

Just got reqs

First things first, I want to dispel the notion that "there's no reason NOT to run Tornadus-T on a rain team." I didn't even use him once, yoip. That said i'm probably going to vote ban, because its way too strong. If it weren't so fast I would maybe reconsider, but base 121 speed is absurd. I'm not fine with running Jirachi on every single team. Speaking of Jirachi, SubCM Jirachi decimates this metagame. Stop using that pathetic SpD set, and start using SubCM w/ Thunder. You'll glaze every team, I swear.

Oh yeah KD24 and Lavos are totally right, Choice Specs Tornadus-T is much way better than LO. I thought it was laughable at first, but let's be real here, who cares about Blissey/Chansey( You can always predict the Tyranitar switch in with U-turn to out to a counter.). The only thing that matters is Hurricane, and with Specs just takes it up to 11. There's also a lack of LO recoil, which makes it even harder to kill Tornadus-T (the amount of times i've been fucked by a <10% Specs Tornadus-T is ridiculous.

 

[Lavos]

I don't intend on it switching in, as it is a check, not a counter. If anything, that 51% chance is very helpful as I can now switch in my ferrothorn/rotom w/jirachi/etc. knowing that they will have a much easier time dealing with it, all the while tornadus continues to take residual damage.

You're saying you're not going to switch in Hippowdon directly, but rather let the OTHER Torn-T check you're running handle it? So the options are now:

1. ban torn-t
2. run sdef rachi
3. run multiple torn-t "checks" on the same team?

I think this is going a bit too far. When you come to the point where you've begun to run multiple Torn-T checks for the sole purpose of checking Torn-T, you can come to a reasonable conclusion that said Pokemon is too powerful for the current metagame. Besides, none of the checks you list even stop Torn-T, they just slow him down and make him switch out a couple of times before finally killing you. Jirachi is the only Pokemon you're going to consistently beat Torn-T with, and even then, it's easily trapped, as I've probably stated about a hundred times throughout the course of this thread. If you're running Jirachi, you don't need to run Hippo or Rotom-W or whatever else alongside it, because that's the best shot you have at stopping it short of a sweep. Stacking check on top of check only prolongs the inevitable.

And quickly on the topic of Tornadus-T racking up residual damage: yes, with the Life Orb set, this happens quite a lot. However, if you know what you're doing it's laughably easy to get Torn-T in when rocks aren't up, then U-Turn immediately on whatever Pokemon happens to be in for the opponent. By doing this, you automatically get 23% net HP back, increasing Torn-T's lifespan even further.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to a "well-played" Tornadus-T. By employing simple little strategies like this throughout the course of the battle, Torn-T can easily be kept fresh and healthy while simultaneously wearing down its checks to prepare for an endgame sweep.

 

[Vemane]

Running multiple tornadus-t checks is too much? Lolwut the hell are you talking about? (not to mention coming from the guy who said having literally half of the team supporting Tornadus is perfectly fine)

Do you realize what /checks/ tornadus-t?

-Almost any scarfer
-Any ice sharder
-Anything that can tank a hit and ko (ie. a lot)
-Any electric type
-Any non fighting weak steel or rock type

You don't need to change your team in the slightest in many cases to check tornadus t... so many pokemon do it!

You don't need any "checks" to tornadus-t because there are a huge amount that do it anyways.

You need, from my experience on the ladder, to add at most 1 pokemon to serve as a dedicated tornadus t counter/check simply because it is likely that the majority of your team will unintentionally be able to check the bird

 

[zpattack12]

You say that so much checks Tornadus-T, but with it's massive speed and access to Regenerator, it's extremely difficult to actually take it down. In theory it may work, but any good player can play around, and with a pokemon so dominating, if you have a couple mons to help remove those counters. As qedragonite has said, it's not whether it has countersm but the restrictions it places on the team. It so easily grabs momentum and damages things with Hurricane, while being able to escape so many of its threats.

 

[Hugin]

Feel that this statement articulates succinctly my thoughts.

Over-popularizing rain and causing teams to over-prepare for it has, I feel, caused Torn-T to warp the metagame rather unpleasantly. The metagame should not be defined by just one, very specific sort of team. We should say things like "weather defines the current metagame" or "Hyper Offense defines the current metagame", not "Rain teams running Torn-T define the current meta". 'Mons like Zapdos have been brought into the limelight simply because they can deal with -to debatable degrees- Rain teams running Torn-T. It's a pity, since it has only just had its time under the sun -er, rain- following Genesect's ban, but Torn-T can't stay OU.

(more strongly, i feel Hurricane, all things considered, is not a good move but that's opening another can of worms)

Just addressing the bolded, I don't think Hurricane is out of line for an attack. Assuming the correct weather is up:
Hurricane: 120 bp, 100 acc, 30% Confuse.
Thunder: 120 bp, 100 acc, 30% Para.
Blizzard: 120 bp, 100 acc, 10% Freeze
Solar Beam: 120 bp, 100 acc.
Scald: 120 bp. 100 acc, 30% Burn.
Lava Plume: 120 bp, 100 acc, 30% Burn.
The issue is obvious. Hurricane is relatively in line with everything else in weather, but Sand, Ice, and Sun get fewer and weaker options than Rain. Combine that with the excellent coverage offered by Electric/Water/Flying, and there's a problem.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Alright, I think I'm gonna chime in here, considering I've been using a Rain team with both Keldeo and Tornadus-T for a very long time now. I don't think I have much to say about Keldeo, as the vast majority of people seem to consider it not broken, and I completely agree. It has numerous solid counters, has a STAB that, while quite excellent defensively, is a bit lacking offensively, as it fails to hit numerous common Pokemon (Lati@s, Celebi, Dragonite, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Starmie) for super effective damage and has to rely on Hidden Power to beat them. Unfortunately all of these Pokemon are bulky and/or can either completely wall or outspeed and OHKO Keldeo. Not to mention if Keldeo opts to run one Hidden Power it's totally walled by another of these Pokemon.

Tornadus-T is certainly a more interesting case. Valid arguments have been brought up on both sides, which makes the fate of this suspect relatively difficult to determine. First I'd like to examine the traits of Tornadus-T that make people believe that it's broken.

It's incredible Speed combined with its considerable power and excellent neutral coverage of its STAB move alone give the metagame a headache. Tornadus-T is an excellent multitasker, as it can revenge kill, wallbreak and scout. Furthermore, its incredible ability means that it is very, very difficult to wear down, as the bane of most Flying-types, Stealth Rock, is nigh on neutered due to Tornadus recovering more HP than the damage Stealth Rock can deal. The fact that Tornadus-T only has two truly effective sets means that we always know what it's going to be doing, and yet we still have immense difficulty in dealing with it. Its reliance on Rain isn't such a big hindrance, as Rain is, at the moment, easily the most dominant weather condition, and will likely make an appearance in one of every three games played on the ladder.

Whew, that's quite the impressive Pokemon. And yet, I don't consider it broken. My reasoning is the following: I consider an offensively-inclined Uber a Pokemon that can threaten the vast majority of the tier with little to no support. Said Uber should be very difficult to revenge kill and/or should have very few actual counters. And in my opinion, Tornadus-T falls into none of these categories.

First of all, I'll adress the support characteristic. One, Tornadus-T needs Rain up to live up to its full potential. I know that Rain is the easiest weather to keep up, but Sand, Hail and Sun are all out there, and when you're fighting the weather war, you can not go on a Hurricane spree. Next, we have Tornadus-T's reliance on a Rapid Spinner. Yes, Regenerator means that Tornadus-T will not be worn down to the point of fainting by Stealth Rock damage, but it will still always be battling at 3/4ths of its maximum HP, which means that moves have a far higher chance of bringing it down. The most common and effective spinner on Rain teams is Tentacruel, which really does do a fine job at spinning. But here's the thing, Tentacruel is rather easy to force out, and Stealth Rock isn't exactly Spikes, it only takes one turn to set up again. So basically what I'm trying to say here is that Tornadus-T needs two forms of support if it wants to succeed: the weather war has to be won and Stealth Rock needs to be removed. Not neccessarily difficult to do, but it's still a thorn in Tornadus-T's side. Nonetheless, this was my weakest argument and I'm aware of the fact.

My second argument revolves around the fact that Tornadus-T isn't exactly immune to revenge killing (unlike say, Excadrill). While it's a very fast Pokemon, it's not the fastest out there. Jolteon and Weavile have become a more common sight, and both pack the ability to outspeed and OHKO Tornadus-T with their STAB moves. Jolteon simply needs to select Volt Switch, as Tornadus-T will always switch out, and Jolteon will have gained offensive momentum for its team. Weavile has the option to play mindgames with Tornadus-T, as it can either go for the OHKO with Ice Punch or smack the bird with a powerful Pursuit on the predicted switch. One can even resort to using lesser seen Pokemon such as Aerodactyl, which unlike the other two can actually switch in on Tornadus-T and threaten the OHKO with its STAB moves. It's not useless outside of the role either, as it can give your team an early Stealth Rock and provide a solid switchin to Volcarona and Heatran as well. Instant recovery is a blessing as well. Of course, in order to revenge kill Tornadus-T, you're not only resorted to Pokemon faster than it. Priority moves are very unpleasant for Tornadus-T to deal with; it's weak to Mamoswine's Ice Shard, which is very common. Scizor's Bullet Punch leaves a massive dent in Tornadus-T, and can even OHKO should Scizor have pulled off a Swords Dance or Tornadus-T have suffered some previous damage such as Life Orb recoil. Choice Band ExtremeSpeed from Dragonite hurts like hell, and even Aqua Jet is lethal, as it's boosted by the Rain that accompanies Tornadus-T. While rarely seen, Azumaril is a very nasty little revenge killer in the current metagame that can pick off multiple Pokemon outside of Tornadus-T, such as Rock Polish Landorus, Terrakion, Volcarona, Mamoswine, Infernape, Thundurus-T, etc. All Pokemon capable of running through teams. Then we have the option that the majority of people use to keep Tornadus-T in check: Choice Scarfers. Most teams carry them, and there are plenty that can OHKO our speedy friend. Terrakion, Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Garchomp, Salamence, Latios... do I really need to list them all? In such an offensive metagame, we can't rely on counters all the time, we just have to prevent a Pokemon from sweeping our team, and there are numerous ways to prevent Tornadus-T from doing that to us. With smart play, these Choice Scarfers can even switch in on Tornadus-T, they don't have to come in on the kill! Double switching IS possible you know. For example, you can send Tyranitar in on a Tornadus-T. The incoming Superpower is obvious, and you can use this opportunity to switch in Latios, Salamence, Thundurus-T, whatever. Rotom-W and Thundurus-T can come in on Hurricanes as well, and go for the Volt Switch. These Pokemon are also often paired with Jirachi, who can Wish them up to full health, as they can easily come in on its weaknesses during the downpour. It's situations like these that make Tornadus-T seem broken on paper, but when actually battling it goes to show that there are multiple ways to defeat the therian.

I'll now conclude with my third point: Tornadus-T has counters. And they're not counters that exist only to counter it, but have other purposes as well; ergo, they will be common on opposing teams. I think that we can all conclude that Jirachi is the most effective, as it can easily heal itself up, and cheerfully come into Tornadus-T multiple times during a game, and threaten to cripple or KO it with its moves (Thunder being the main one). But there are at least three other solid counters! SpD Skarmory can come in on any move on the Specs set and start setting up. It's more difficult for Skarmor to deal with the Life Orb set, as it can be Taunted, but Stealth Rock damage, Life Orb recoil and Brave Bird mean that Tornadus-T will barely make it out alive. SpD Rotom is another very good counter, as it can come into Hurricane very easily, and go for the Volt Switch. Pain Split is an unreliable way to recover its health, but it works. Rotom also has the option to use ChestoRest, which means that it'll last for a long time. It's also commonly paired with Jirachi, which means that Wish will keep it healthy. Not to mention that Tornadus-T has an extremely difficult time in breaking through such a core, which both counter it and have beautiful defensive synergy with one another. Next there's Zapdos. Zapdos, especially the SpD version, can come in on any of Tornadus-T's staple moves with absolute impunity, has access to reliable recovery which means that it can do its job multiple times, and can always OHKO Tornadus-T. Thunderbolt, Heat Wave, Roost and Roar is the most common and best Zapdos set. I saw a post earlier saying that Zapdos needs needs like 7 moveslots to be effective in OU. I disagree. These four moves give Zapdos the ability to do what it needs to, and you have other teammates such as Steels or Ice Shard users to deal with Dragons. Toxic can be nice, but I'd rather leave that to another Pokemon anyway. The fact that it's Stealth Rock weak is bothersome, but the same can be said for the Pokemon it's supposed to be countering. Both have the option of running a Rapid Spinner as a teammate, it's down to the way you play with them.

So yeah, that's my opinion on this Suspect test. Keldeo isn't broken for clear reasons, and I think I've clearly expressed my five reasons for why Tornadus-T should not be banned: irritating Stealth Rock weakness, reliance on winning the weather war, vulnerability to the Pokemon naturally faster than it, priority users and Choice Scarf users, and four solid counters.

 

[Vemane]

Dugtrio can't OHKO with earthquake. Dugtrio is not OU material. It's only useful for weather control, but even then , it is a waste of pokemon slot.

Weather control, especially when using weather dependent pokemon like tornadus or chlorophyll sweepers, is a VERY important role in such a weather dominated metagame. And dugtrio doesn't need to ohko when it can simply weaken it enough for tornadus to now ko, thus preventing it from being a counter.

You say that so much checks Tornadus-T, but with it's massive speed and access to Regenerator, it's extremely difficult to actually take it down. In theory it may work, but any good player can play around, and with a pokemon so dominating, if you have a couple mons to help remove those counters. As qedragonite has said, it's not whether it has countersm but the restrictions it places on the team. It so easily grabs momentum and damages things with Hurricane, while being able to escape so many of its threats.

I'm simply stating a fact. Whether or not it can play around these checks (which it can in most cases) and whether or not that makes it broken is where the controversy arises, not whether or not its very evident checks and counters exist (which they do).

 

[Tacit]

I personally don't believe that Torn-T is broken. Due to the ubiquity of scarfers, efficiency of its checks/counters, its typing-caused frailty and its need of support.

Almost every good team has a scarf pokemon on it, it is almost a rule. With powerful pokemon such as Terrakion being common scarfers, the fact that it can switch out, preserving itself, often doesn't change the fact that you can predict its switch and use another attack to hit whatever comes in, such as close combat in Terrakion's case. Simply put, revenge killing Tornadus-T can work in your favor because while it does save itself, whatever it switches to can possibly be worn down faster than your counters to Tornadus are, which with good playing eventually ends in you taking down the bird.

Tornadus-T definitely has efficient counters. Jirachi can switch in on hurricane and just use body slam or thunder. Even if the Tornadus switches, whatever comes in likely wouldn't appreciate being paralyzed, and to top it off, Jirachi can run U-Turn itself. Also, the Jirachi can heal itself if it needs to every switch with Wish + Protect. Zapdos, while it isn't very good in OU, is also an efficient counter. It can switch in and either roost off the damage or fire off a thunderbolt. It can also run volt switch, which is guaranteed to KO Torn after rocks and life orb recoil (which would be caused by the attack you take when you come in). SpD Rotom-W can do a similar thing. The Blobs also counter this thing very well, as superpower does not do very much at all, allowing them to use softboiled to recover the damage or thunder wave to permanently cripple the bird. And THEN use softboiled.

Tornadus-T also has a lot of checks. Tornadus-T is OHKO'd by many common OU attackers that it can't OHKO back. Thundurus-T, Terrakion and Landorus-T immediately come to mind, but there are many more. In addition, Scizor can be used as a one-time counter if rocks are up. It can take one Hurricane (if rocks aren't up or low damage roll) and then KO with either Bullet punch of pursuit if it is predicted to switch. It can't take a hit from the specs set, however.

Tornadus-T may have decent defenses, but its typing makes it very frail. It can't take rock, ice or electric moves well at all, which are all fairly common moves on most pokemon. And while regenerator DOES help it live longer, if rocks are up, people seem to be forgetting that it will always come in at 75%, which leaves makes it very frail. Tornadus-T also can't switch in well at all.

Finally, Tornadus-T's need for weather support is very dire. While 70% accuracy will hit most of the time, it just wouldn't work out well enough for Tornadus to be efficient. In sun, it is even worse. Also, air slash isn't powerful enough to be threatening coming from Tornadus's special attack.

Also, Tornadus-T's U-Turns are very weak.

 

[Vemane]

Tornadus-T may have decent defenses, but its typing makes it very frail. It can't take rock, ice or electric moves well at all, which are all fairly common moves on most pokemon. And while regenerator DOES help it live longer, if rocks are up, people seem to be forgetting that it will always come in at 75%, which leaves makes it very frail. Tornadus-T also can't switch in well at all.

Speaking of which, whatever happened to rock polish lando/double dance terrakion/agility thundurus-t/any dragon dancer/etc.?

A simple way to stop tornadus's antics is simply to start a sweep! It won't help tornadus to switch out of a +1/+1 moxiemence mid/late game, as something is going to die anyways, and preserving tornadus in this case provides more of a liability.

The same holds true for lando+thundurus+etc. It's ability to regenerate is mitigated if it would have no purpose as it is 1hkod anyways.

Although it provides a ridiculous amount of offensive pressure, the same pressure can be applied by the other player as well.

 

[BdB4445]

Just addressing the bolded, I don't think Hurricane is out of line for an attack. Assuming the correct weather is up:
Hurricane: 120 bp, 100 acc, 30% Confuse.
Thunder: 120 bp, 100 acc, 30% Para.
Blizzard: 120 bp, 100 acc, 10% Freeze
Solar Beam: 120 bp, 100 acc.
Scald: 120 bp. 100 acc, 30% Burn.
Lava Plume: 120 bp, 100 acc, 30% Burn.
The issue is obvious. Hurricane is relatively in line with everything else in weather, but Sand, Ice, and Sun get fewer and weaker options than Rain. Combine that with the excellent coverage offered by Electric/Water/Flying, and there's a problem.

Hurricane hits a wide amount of targets though, and the one who abuses it is fast, strong, and ran recover from his own life orb / hazard damage. The rest have common resistences (while Electric, Water, and Fire attacks have immunities too).

The attack itself isn't that OP, since it's not used often on other pokemon. I mean, Dragonite can use Thunder, Hurricane, and Waterfall/Aqua Tail in the rain; yet Tornadus-T on the edge towards ubers.

 

[hotcoldyay]

The attack itself isn't that OP, since it's not used often on other pokemon. I mean, Dragonite can use Thunder, Hurricane, and Waterfall/Aqua Tail in the rain; yet Tornadus-T on the edge towards ubers.

the difference between the two, however,is that tornadus is super fast, has regenerator, and can u turn out against unfavorable match ups. Dragonite is powerful, has multiscale, and has great power most especially in the rain, but it has lower speed and the inability to recover health other than through wishpassers and roost (which it must waste a turn to do so, while torn t can switch or u turn out and babam instant health).

 

[Vemane]

the difference between the two, however,is that tornadus is super fast, has regenerator, and can u turn out against unfavorable match ups. Dragonite is powerful, has multiscale, and has great power most especially in the rain, but it has lower speed and the inability to recover health other than through wishpassers and roost (which it must waste a turn to do so, while torn t can switch or u turn out and babam instant health).

The most comparable users of the move are tornadus-t and tornadus itself. Tornadus is still fast and noticeably stronger, but it hasn't the longevity and utility (in terms of functioning as a pivot... priority non-attacks is lovely) that tornadus-t has

 

[alexwolf]

take a quick look at what you just said. you're arguing with me...for slandering zapdos and weavile? damn, dude. i generally respect your opinions but this is pretty disappointing. look back to what i and numerous other users have said about zapdos, i really don't want to repeat myself. tl;dr, it's barely viable. crippling weaknesses to rocks, any ttar, almost anything faster than it, and god is it weak. the best it can really do is absorb a hit, roost, and run. if you want to make it not pathetic, you have to take away sdef or hp evs and dump them into satk, meaning now you're not living 2 rain boosted keldeo surfs anymore. it's a lose-lose situation. 4mss and eving it is a nightmare because either way something screws you. also gl running heat wave in rain, that's not doing more than 30% to sdef ferro lol.

don't get me started on weavile. you're good enough to know that thing has an extremely small niche in ou. maybe you can use it on a hyper offense team that desperately needs ice priority and pursuit access...maybe. otherwise it's fairly useless.

Zapdos isn't weak to Ttar, it can just switch out, it is fast enough for a defensive Pokemon (one of the fastest actually), and has 125 SpA, meaning that it is really fucking strong for a special tank/pivot. You don't have to use SpA at all as SpD Zapdos is not meant to kill things by attacking. Finally Zapdos doesn't have such a huge mss imo, as Volt Switch/Thunder, Heat Wave / HP Ice, Roost, and Roar is all you need. Finally Ferrothorn is handles by Forretress or even Tentacruel, which are always Zapdos's partners so against a rain team SR will never be up.

@alexwolf

cbttar is definitely not a great meta choice at the moment and neither is zapdos. the former just has problems with surviving against any rain team as politoed, ferrothorn, keldeo, dugtrio, etc all love seeing it. so it's an answer to specs tornadus-t and it loses to life orb tornadus-t...i guess congrats if they brought specs tornadus-t and made sure to use it early so ttar could revenge - you see, that's the thing you have to realize. tornadus-t can run 2 different items which can absolutely change what "counters" it. we can discuss why i like specs better but that doesn't change the fact that ttar no longer is a counter if it chooses to run life orb

Life Orb 54.866%
Choice Specs 36.532%

That is the item stats of tornadus-t last suspect test with genesect banned. so right away your argument falls apart because band ttar might counter the tornadus-t i use but it loses to the tornadus-t that half or even more of people are using, while bandtar is also weak to many common elements of rain teams

zapdos is a mon that just isn't very good in practice - can it stop tornadus-t? yes, but if it's taking stealth rock and we assume it is as we assume tornadus-t is, then it has to roost on the tornadus-t switch to keep it's survivability. if they go to ferro, that's either more hazards or leech seed. and i'm not sure when ferrothorn started having trouble with spinners. starmie and tentacruel both stink vs it as power whip does a ton of damage, so only forretress. but even then, they go to forretress and zapdos and that doesn't leave much room to threaten ferrothorn. you mention zapdos but do you really want to deal with the risk of a twave or leech seed?

CBTar is a great set, and possibly the best Ttar set. And as i said again CBtar will only come in after Specs Nadus-T kills something to trap and kill it and that's it. I know Torn-T can run two sets, but we should be talking about the set that makes it broken, which as you said is the Specs set right? So if we talk about the Specs set, CBTar fucks it badly, and of 'course it can't deal with LO Torn-T (it can actually if Ttar is healthy and if Torn-T is at -1 due to Superpower). And my argument doesn't fall apart because i never stated that BandTar fucks any Torn-T, just the Specs variant.

Zapdos + Forretress can easily outstall the Torn-T + Ferro combo, so nothing to discuss here. SR will never be up when facing a rain team and using this combo, as whenever Ferro comes in, Forre will be ready to spin the rocks away. And yeah Forre can outlast Ferro if it carries Pain Split, which is a very viable option. Torn-T will only be able to fire 8 Hurricanes due to Pressure, while Zapdos avoids the 3HKO without SR, so as you see Zapdos completely counters Torn-T.

Couple of things here, firstly, Venusaur beats Zapdos due to +2 Sludge Bomb KOing with SR (common battle condition?), Celebi has a decent shot if SR is up and it packs HP Ice (with NP) which I am encountering more often to nail the Dragonite people use to cockblock Celebi. That one might be a little situational tho for your taste. Volcarona wins if Rain isn't up (something id bear in mind if I was facing Zapdos), Latias actually beats Zapdos depending on the moves Zapdos runs (if Roar then Latias can outroar it, if Toxic Latias can run Sub), and Rank doesn't give a shit and will CM up as a last poke, same for Jirachi (under Rain). So be careful here as some of these senarios Zapdos doesn't always win :/ .

Most Venusaur that i see are Timid, meaning that they can't OHKO at +2 Zapdos even after SR, while Zapdos OHKOes back with Heat Wave. Against Modest Venu Zapdos has a chance to get OHKOed, so i guess you can say that Zapdos is a very good check against Venu and not a counter. Against NP Celebi it depends. Celebi needs LO and HP Ice/Psychic to have a hope of getting past Zapdos, which are not always present, as many times Celebi uses Giga Drain + HP Fire + EP, or even Giga Drain + EP + Recover, and Leftovers variants are too weak to get past Zapdos. So again i guess that Zapdos is a good check against NP Celebi. I was talking about Rain Volcarona so rain will be up. Zapdos beats SubCM Latias, which is the most common variant, although it gets fucked by RoarCM as you said, so once again solid check. Finally against Reuniclus and Jirachi you don't need to beat them, just phazing them will be enough, as you should have other members capable of hurting them anyways such as Scizor or Ttar for Reuniclus(and don't ask me why you woudln't bring those two in immediately against Reuniclus, as Ttar risks getting FB'ed, and Scizor is prone to residual damage + FB) and Hippo, Garchomp, or Gastrodon for Jirachi. But yeah point taken Zapdos can't fully counter those threats, i just wanted to show how well it handles most CM users.

O.k I am v. confused. There are 2 really "good" spinners in my personal opinion: Starmie and Tentacruel, and Ferrothorn beats Starmie so yea. I guess that you are talking about Ferrothorn, but I don't really consider Forretress "beating" Ferrothorn, which can Leech Seed stall + IB + Hazard spam fairly easily, and Forry will have to cut its losses sooner or later. Sure, you can run Pain Split, but then you lose Volt Switch / Gyro Ball / HP Ice / Rapid Spin / Spikes / SR or something else im forgetting which in turn makes you vulnerable to something else. I don't consider you running a situational move such as Pain Split as "winning", can my Ferrothorn run HP Fire?

Lastly, worth noting that Forretress doesn't do that great against Rain anyway, Rain boosted sclads hurt, its hazards will be spun, and its set up fodder for a large number of things.

I said two of the three best, aka Forretress and Tentacruel. I didn't say that Forre is a good spinner, but that it is better than Donphan and UU shit such as Hitmontop and Blastoise. But whatever, Forre and Tenta both handle Ferrothorn, especially Forre, meaning that the Zapdos user shouldn't have any problem keeping SR off against a rain team. And yeah Forre should either use Pain Split to beat Ferro, or have Wish support from teammates. And don't compare Pain Split on Forre with HP Fire on Ferro, you know it's not the same as Pain Split helps Forre to do its job better in certain situations and isn't a gimmick. And yeah Forre doesn't get many switch-in opportunities against rain teams, but if it accomplishes its main role in the team (rapid spinning) then it has done its job imo.

I will make you a deal bro, why don't you tell me the 4 attacks you are running on Zapdos, and I (and lavos and anyone else who wants too) will tell you everything you lose to. Remember, Zapdos is NOT running Thunderbolt / Heat Wave / Volt Switch / Roost / Substitute / HP Ice / HP [Anything Else] / Roar / Toxic, it must pick and choose what it runs, and therefore what it loses too. At the moment, you have a fucking 8 attack Zapdos or something, and asking us to counter it!!! Regardless, Terrakion and Tyranitar both do very well against most Zapdos sets, and I could mention many, many other pokmeon that also would win. Mamoswine I bet can Icicle Spear Zapdos to hell, (I bet Cloyster also outspeeds before a shell smash boost), Sun would shit all over you, Sand wouldn't care, and you would lose a TON of momentum against HO teams. In addition, its not THAT amazing against other special attackers. Specs Toed for example can and will still point it with high powered water attacks, Keldeo is in the same boat, Latios has a LO Psyshock and a DM (or Surf its a Rain Latios), Thundurus-T nukes the shit out of it, Rotom-W scores a 2KO with Hydro Pump under Rain etc etc. Sure, some of these senarios are situational maybe but the point is that there are MANY other special sweepers that Zapdos flat out loses too, really making it an overspecialised Tornadus-T counter. Sure I bet you could come up with a few other pokemon it beats, but you cannot hide from the facts, if Zapdos was actually good in this metagame, it would be used more, period. As it stands its only "o.k" against a few (strong) OU threats, but thats really it, don't try claiming its amazing or whatever when all it really does is beat Tornadus-T and a few other things, while losing to a shitload of other things.

Zapdos will be running Volt Switch / Thunder, Heat Wave / HP Ice, Roar / Toxic, and Roost, but for argument's shake the set will be the one with the first slashes. And i never implied a 8 attack anyway lol. I said that Zapdos can phaze, beat CM users via phazing and some other special or physical attackers with Volt Switch / Heat Wave (Venusaur, Scizor, etc). It has some problems as you correctly stated, but so do many other defensive Pokemon. The fact that when used on a good team it can shut down many rain teams, while still taking care of some problematic Pokemon i already mentioned (Venu, Scizor, Skarmory, Forre, Ferro if not raining, SubCM Latias, and more) that are found in sun, sand or weatherless, making it a decent Pokemon to use in OU. Sorry if i tried to make it seem better than it is, but it surely isn't garbage like Lavos Spawn suggests. Zapdos is not great, just good enough or ok, meaning that if you don't want to use Jirachi, Rotom-W, or Bronzong to deal with Torn-T defensively, you are welcome to pick Zapdos in your team. At the end of the day Zapdos is one more way to deal with Torn-T, simple as that.

I find it ironic that you brought this up after bringing up your 5(?) attack Zapdos but I digress...

Once again i never implied more than 4 attacks on Zapdos.

Its true that their are 2 Tornadus-T sets, and people often bring up different ones. I, for example, am almost always discussing LO Tornadus, due to me having good experiences with it and due to the fact that it can switch attacks making it harder to deal with. Kd24 on the other hand, is discussing Specs Tornadus due to him having better experiences with it, so its personal preference. Both sets are fairly common, so when responding to the pro ban arguements, remember that there ARE 2 sets, and perhapes your counters against one set might not work against another. For example, good luck using Tyranitar for your LO Tornadus counter, which wins in various ways (nor do I need to mention them all). No-one is listing LO + Specs + Hurricane + Superpower + Focus Blast + HP Ice + Sleep Talk + Rain Dance + Taunt + U-Turn in their posts, fucking READ them and then read your own posts which contain pokemon with more than 4 attacks (I counted the Zapdos with Thunderbolt / Heat Wave / Volt Switch / Roost / Roar) before calling other people out thanks.

My point is that we should be discussing Torn-T's best set, aka the one that breaks it, so which set is this? Yeah other sets exist as well, but versatility is almost always a reason to ban something, as most top-tier Pokemon can run sets to bypass common checks and counter to other of their sets. And for god's sake i never implied anything more than Volt Switch/Tbolt, Heat Wave, Roost, and Roar on Zapdos.

ANYWAY, just check out peoples posts, should be clear as to what set that are talking about :)

Prolly by spamming Hurricane and then switching? I know it beats Rotom-W this way, which everyone was hyping up as a counter so maybe u want to reword this slightly or something. IDK.

I wasn't talking about Rotom-W, as it isn't a counter, i was talking about the Pokemon that counter Specs Torn-T (the set that kd referred to as the best one), namely Jirachi, Chansey, Blissey, and Zapdos. And no, Specs Torn-T, the set we were talking about, can't get past those Pokemon simply by spamming Hurricane and then switching out because they all have reliable recovery and are 4HKOed at best by Hurricane.

Anyway I have consumed a fair amount of alcohol so I apologise if I made any massive spelling / grammar errors or if I came across as overly hostile or something in my posts, its not my intention and ill fix it when I wake tyvm tyvm[/QUOTE]

A 3hko on what amounts to a Super Effective (2x) hit in the Rain? Lol. So if Ferro gets 3hko'd and doesn't wall Zapdos, why do you think that Zapdos is a counter to Torn-T when it gets 3hko'd by Hurricane after SR? At least try to be consistent with your argument brah. Also, before you say it has Roost, Ferro can just as easily pack Leech Seed/Protect to wall Zapdos all day too.

Also if you're using max HP max Sp.def Zapdos, that's the most useless pokemon ever, it hits like a grandma and even shit like Tyranitar is able to outspeed

Because it's partner, Forretress, will make Ferro its bitch that's why. Zapdos + Forre owns Torn-T + Ferro you can't deny this.

Checks don't count, nobody cares.

Actually they do, but we can't make a discussion like this so whatever.

EDIT: Just got reqs and i am really torn about Torn-T. It is very problematic if you are not prepared for it, but if you are it isn't. That's true for everything, but are the answers to Torn-T enough, in quality and in quantity? Tbh i am not really sure.

 

[malefic]

Just addressing the bolded, I don't think Hurricane is out of line for an attack. Assuming the correct weather is up:
Hurricane: 120 bp, 100 acc, 30% Confuse.
Thunder: 120 bp, 100 acc, 30% Para.
Blizzard: 120 bp, 100 acc, 10% Freeze
Solar Beam: 120 bp, 100 acc.
Scald: 120 bp. 100 acc, 30% Burn.
Lava Plume: 120 bp, 100 acc, 30% Burn.
The issue is obvious. Hurricane is relatively in line with everything else in weather, but Sand, Ice, and Sun get fewer and weaker options than Rain. Combine that with the excellent coverage offered by Electric/Water/Flying, and there's a problem.

Mm hm. I mentioned that all things considered, I feel Hurricane could have been a better thought-out move. Consider collectively its typing, base power, perfect accuracy under rain, distribution (and as an aside, that annoying 30% chance of confusion hax). Notably, how all this impacts the meta. The bolded parts: that's actually most of the reason for my dislike of Hurricane; its typing, the accuracy buff rain gives it, and its distribution that has over-popularized rain teams (specifically the Torn-T mould). So I didn't like what I thought about the move and expressed my latent dissatisfaction, lol.

A good typing, Hurricane, U-Turn, an infuriating speed bracket, Regenerator, decent bulk (compare defences to something like Gengar) has, I feel, made OU unable to accommodate Torn-T. Chances are as things play out it's going to get banned by popular decision regardless.

 

[danilo]

Zapdos, specifically the specially defensive variant, is quite terrible in BW2 OU outside of checking Torn-t. I've been using Zapdos since uhh when Garchomp was introduced on the suspect ladder a few months ago. Zapdos is the best Torn-T answer in my experience, especially if you can get rids of Rocks. However, based on my ~3 months of experience, Zapdos is garbage in this metagame outside of beating Torn-t. It's often dead weight outside of matchups vs rain and is weak to many of the defining attributes a rain team has like powerful hydro pumps and ferrothorn. Gonna agree with Lavos and co that Zapdos is p bad

 

[yee]

I actually had a very interesting experience with Zapdos in BW1 (not arguing that it's good now). Specially defensive subroost was doing crazy cool things like taking E-Belt Latios Surf without losing a Sub and draining things like TR rank and Balloon Tran of all of their PP. Unfortunately Drizzle kind of kills the defensive Zapdos idea because Tentacruel is too effective at getting rid of T spikes and the Ferro paired with it sets up on it too. I would call it usable but absolutely is not set up to do anything special (and no this is not a remove Drizzle argument because I know one of you will assume it is one even with the disclaimer here). Drizzle makes too many other pokemon too good, pokemon that heavily directly benefit and are more worth using like Ferro / Cruel / Keldeo / Dug / Jirachi / the clear best pokemon in OU Torn-T. Zapdos is not going to be a premium choice that jumps out at you because Drizzle doesn't let it be one.