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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Dec 25, 2012.

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  1. SlimMan

    SlimMan

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    Made reqs tonight, so I feel like now would be a good time to share my opinion. I've never been one for long, detailed posts (let alone being well-understood when I make them), but here I go.

    Keldeo is a Water Pony. Keldeo is the second cutest Pokemon. And Keldeo is not broken. Since it appears that this view is almost universally shared, I'll be brief. First of all, Celebi's usage this month has shot up to like 45% lol. Yeah, I know it's not that high, but it seems like Celebi is everywhere. I'm guessing that Amoonguss, Lati@s, etc. have been listed at LEAST once per page of this thread. CM Keldeo sets are pretty obviously not even close to why it's being Suspected, so I'll ignore them. Keldeo's Choice sets are the very definition of only being able to do one job at a time. Scarf Pony is damn annoying to face, but it really mostly troubles offensive teams, which lack any of its solid counters (because you do have to admit, Lati@s is really Keldeo's only offensive counter). And Specs Pony can break through Jellicent/Tentacruel and co. given a few turns, but then it's basically just a variation on Band Terrakion. I know it's an obvious argument, but Water Pony can't perform multiple tasks with any given set (for example, Excadrill could Spin and sweep, two jobs on one set). Some Ubers, such as Darkrai, could only do one thing per set (sleep something and sweep), but it was so damn good at that one job that it didn't matter if it was one job or twenty... it was getting done. I don't think either of those two situations describe Keldeo. Keldeo simply does not measure up to any previous Ubers, and shouldn't be banned.

    Now onto Tornadus-T. Before I begin, I would ask everyone to go back and read Cherub's post again. It is the most well-written argument for keeping Tornadus that I've seen in this entire thread, and it beats the hell out of what I'm about to post.

    Okay... the bird. I don't know where to start, but I guess I'll start with my opinion. Do not ban. I've seen a lot of arguments for banning Tornadus that all revolve around the performance of Tornadus-T's counters. But I disagree with those arguments, for a reason which Jabba stated earlier in the thread (about banning Keldeo): Tornadus plays differently in practice than it does on paper. And frankly, most of the debate about Torn-T's counters has appeared to be on paper. I'd like to draw a comparison between two VERY unlikely Pokemon: Tornadus-T and Dugtrio.

    I know, right? But hear me out. When you see a team with Dugtrio, you're forced to play differently. Do you really want your Tyranitar to Pursuit that Latios? It could let Dugtrio come in and win the weather war. Are you sure that your Heatran should switch in to counter Dragonite? The dead Dragonite might turn into a Dugtrio, which opens you up to the opponent's Venusaur. Dugtrio forces you to play the game very conservatively, and that gives your opponent more opportunities to get his strategy going, to beat you. But we all know that although Dugtrio has such a powerful influence on how the game is played, Dugtrio itself is not a powerful Pokemon. That's exactly how I think of Tornadus-T.

    The thing is, much like Dugtrio, Tornadus can't switch into almost anything. I recently saw this quote regarding Torn-T's bulk:
    That terrified me. I respect you both as a battler and a user ginga, but I can't believe you said that. Allow me to post some calcs. Under rain, Tornadus effectively resists both of Volcarona's STABs, so I'll use Volc. All calcs will assume Stealth Rock is down (and don't tell me that Regenerator negates Stealth Rock. Torn-T is still not coming in with more than 75% of its health each time).

    Here is a conservative Volcarona, a Timid one with Leftovers: +1 Bug Buzz deals 41.1%-48.8%. A 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Here is a more aggressive Volcarona, a Modest one with Life Orb: +1 Fire Blast in rain deals 78.6%-92.6%. An OHKO after Stealth Rock.

    Now, what does this tell us. Well, first we need to ask ourselves where the Volcarona got a Quiver Dance from, because if you're observant, you noticed it has one. Well, it probably got a Quiver Dance off of the Ferrothorn that everyone seems to agree makes an excellent partner for Tornadus. I'm not trying to provide a battle-scenario here, just to avoid people jumping down my throat about the calc.

    NOW, the first calc tells me that Tornadus-T is 2HKOed by a resisted attack at +1. Resisted. Again, I don't want to provide a battle-scenario here, but Tornadus-T clearly can't switch into even a resisted hit after the Quiver Dance. What about the second calc? It OHKOes Tornadus after Stealth Rock. So even though Tornadus could theoretically check the first one, it is cleanly swept by the second, again a resisted hit. I'm worried that people will think I'm trying to stack the odds against Torn-T here, but I don't think my calcs were unlikely at all. I'll move on though.

    Back to my Dugtrio comparison. Dugtrio puts on immense pressure, basically forcing you not to play a certain way, or suffer the consequences, but it can't switch in. Tornadus-T is the same way (I just showed about bulk). Tornadus-T doesn't want to switch into my Ferrothorn and eat a Gyro Ball or a Thunder Wave. It doesn't want to switch into my Chansey and lose a third of its health to Seismic Toss, or get paralyzed. It sure as hell doesn't want to take a Scald from Politoed as it switches in. I just listed three common members of rain stall teams. STALL teams. I think it's widely agreed that Tornadus's best job is as a wallbreaker. All of the Pokemon I just listed can't switch into Tornadus-T. But Tornadus can't switch into them. So again, how is it coming in? It can come in after a kill. But by the time a Stall team typically nets a kill, it's already gotten into its groove, and a wallbreaker wouldn't be of much use by that point anyways.

    So how is Tornadus doing its job of being a wallbreaker? With prediction. Yes, that's right. Tornadus can easily get in and start tearing shit apart with a little prediction. But prediction goes both ways, and unfortunately is never a reason to ban something. Once Tornadus-T is in, what does it do? Destroy teams. I agree. But the thing is, he can't OHKO very many bulky things. For example, bulky Landorus-T is a common Sand teammate. LO Tornadus fails to OHKO him after Stealth Rock, doing 74%-87.3%. The same Landorus does 79.6%-94.3% with Stone Edge, an easy KO after Stealth Rock. Now, this is a hypothetical situation of course. But I DO have a point in my drawn-out rabble about defensive Pokemon. Tornadus-T appears to be a wallbreaker that can't effectively wallbreak. It needs prior damage to kill most walls, unless it can hit them super effectively (but few walls are weak to Flying STAB). As a sweeper, however, Tornadus-T does a much better job. I'd like to dispel one myth real quick:
    On the contrary, both players are equally pressured, I would say. The Weavile (or any revenge killer) player needs to even the score. But Tornadus is almost certainly THE most dangerous Pokemon its player has. Mispredicting and losing Tornadus would be a tragedy for him, as he would lose what is probably his best chance at winning. It's a 50/50 for BOTH players.

    But other than that, I agree that Tornadus is a monstrous sweeper (not wallbreaker). Give him some prior damage on the other team, and he'll handle the rest. And THIS is where Tornadus really connects to Dugtrio. I've been talking about how he can't switch in, and he's not necessarily too powerful, which is similar to Dugtrio. But here is where Tornadus is really similar. You DON'T want to give Tornadus a chance to switch in under favorable conditions, or else you will probably get swept right then and there. You DON'T want to let Dugtrio come in against your Heatran or Tyranitar or whatever, or else you will lose the Pokemon, and probably subsequently lose the battle. Both Pokemon force you to play very awkwardly, very cautiously, and that's where your opponent gets so many opportunities to go for the win. You can't play around Tornadus like you would most other Pokemon for this reason.

    Also Scarf Pokemon, priority, Jirachi, blah blah blah. I barely even said these, because they're actually a terrible argument against wallbreaking Tornadus. But since I don't look very highly upon Tornadus in that role anyway (as evident above), I figured I might as well include these anyway.

    So now let's take this opportunity to review Tornadus-T as a whole. If you ask me, he's a mediocre wallbreaker, and his best niche is sweeping. But I think he's a hell of a sweeper. Like Keldeo, I think that none of his sets can effectively do multiple jobs. So the real question is, does he do the one job well enough? I'd say no. Just like how Dugtrio doesn't always guarantee a dead Heatran or Tyranitar or whatever, Torn-T doesn't always guarantee a sweep. And this is where my opinion stops cloaking itself in facts. I am blatantly stating that I don't THINK Tornadus-T is good enough at what it does to be banned. It's obvious that a lot of people disagree with me, but a lot of people agree with me too. This post has been long and it digresses fairly often, but I just hope that the actual points are clear enough for everyone to pick out of it.

    tl;dr (open)
    Keldeo is cute. fuck tornadus, but keep it in ou
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    I was referring to actual battles I had where a Tornadus survived my Scarf Politoed Hydro Pump (or IB I forget which it was), or a different battle where it survived my SDef Rotom-Ws Volt Switch. I have even survived a LO Latios Surf (under Rain). I cannot be bothered to run calcs so maybe they rolled high / low or were using a bulky spread or something, idk, but these are off my personal experiences during testing. Please don't attack me for something unwarranted, it just makes me think less of you since you are being quite unfair*.

    You can try and sugar coat it all you want, but in my scenario I made sure not to assume other pokemon on either team (besides Weavile / Tornadus-T) since it leads to situational and "what if" results. How can you assume that Tornadus-T is the more threatening pokemon to his tea,? Perhapes its taken down a Celebi and now Scarf Keldeo is more threatening. I am not denying the situation is a 50/50 and both players would be under pressure to make the correct move, but you missed my point, the Risk / Reward is much higher stakes for the Weavile userdue to the fact they are down a pokemon, and (very probably) down 1 more if he fucks up. Whereas the Tornadus-T player has got is kill (or 2 for example if its 5-4 in his favour) and can rest easy knowing at worst, the scres are even, at best, he gets another KO if he plays his cards right. You are welcome to disagree with me on this, but after several discussions with high level players, this is the type of scenario many players find troubling with Tornadus-T. I suspect a majority of people would claim the Weavile player is in the weaker position but regardless, this discussion finished a few pages ago and its not worth raking over again.

    * Your "Volcarona" arguments are misleading and appear to be deliberately constructed to provide a one sided view. I am very disappointed at this as I had the utmost respect for you as a person but this misleading argument really upsets me. Firstly, note that your using the most offensive Volcarona available, a pokmeon with 135 base special attack, + boosting nature and highly offensive EV spread (this is not common, typically its usually a bulky EV spread with Roost + leftovers) with a LO (rare in my experience), followed up with a STAB 120 BP attack which is NVE on Torn due to rain. You have also given it a (magic) +1 boost, (why the fuck would I switch into a +1 Volcarona) AND are using a -nature Tornadus (which you didn't list). That same Volcarona can OHKO Dragonite after SR if Sunlight is up, and you use this Vollcarona set to claim that Tornadus is exceptionally frail?

    I defended your unfair allegations at the start of my post, providing examples that have happened to me in battle. I hope you find this satisfactory and enough to cause you to perhaps revise your earlier perceptions.
  3. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Back when Genesect was OU legal I used to run a string of setup sweepers that, when revenged, allowed another Pokemon on my team a setup opportunity. Ex: i'd have SD Garchomp be revenged by Ice Beam, which allowed me to set up Shell Smash Cloyster, etc. This allowed me to wrest the offensive momentum from Scarf Genesect users (though clearly didn't help much against RP Gene.) What ways, if any, have you guys found to wrest offensive momentum from Tornadus-T? I think part of the reason that people find Tornadus-T so dangerous is it is both fast and powerful off the bat, allowing it to quickly put its opponent on the back foot. This puts the Tornadus-T user in the driver's seat for the game and makes it difficult to defeat any competent player using Tornadus-T -- which makes control of the pace of the game - and offensive momentum - all the more important.

    So far I've been running Double Dance Thundurus-T which is great against most rain teams and can set up on Tornadus-T after a kill (i'm not switching in lol). What have you guys been doing?
  4. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Earlier today, I made recs with a rain semi-stall team, and I'll put this out now: defensive rain teams can be unbelievably good, even in an aggressive metagame. Note how I said defensive rain teams, because rain provides a perfect environment for some of the best bulky Pokes. Steels and Grass-types aren't as weak to Fire attacks anymore, and Tentacruel gets another layer of Leftovers recovery through Rain Dish.

    I'm not necessarily saying that non-rain stall teams can't be good, but I find that it's harder for them to check all of the offensive threats in the metagame at once. The presence of rain makes the lives of those who normally cause stall problems, like offensive Dragons with a fire attack, much more difficult.

    Just beware of things like Magnezone, Toxicroak, and Thundurus-T, since those guys tend to torture rain teams in general. But with clever planning, you can beat them too.
  5. superbadd

    superbadd

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    Gotta say, Thundurus-t+Jirachi is amazing. Those two plow away at the majority of the metagame(aka rain). Although gastrodon is kind of a bitch... I think it's good for everyone to pressure rain teams with mons like these so that it can encourage people to use something else as they will repeatedly lose if they use cookie cutter rain teams.
  6. Meru

    Meru
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    Modest Volcarona? Let's be for real. And considering it doesn't downright cave to the pokemon with the strongest special attack in the entire OU tier despite zero defensive investment, that is seen as respectable bulk.

    Because a lot of the walls that used to exist are no longer viable because they give dangerous free switch-ins to Tornadus-T. Celebi without T-wave has fallen off the radar. Virizion dropped out of OU. Amoonguss can't be used to reliably counter Keldeo because it lets Tornadus-T rampage too much. Even offensive threats that give him momentum such as BU Conkeldurr and Breloom have vanished.
  7. masterful

    masterful

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    I've been using Scarf Thundurus-T to surprisingly good results alongside Scarf Keldeo and Specs Tornadus-T. That combination of extremely strong and fast pokes guarantees that one of them will be left standing to sweep my opponent once their flying/electric/water resists are dead. I have yet to see a Gastrodon, but I realize that it will shit on that core, so maybe using HP Grass as Tornadus's fourth slot wouldn't be that bad, especially since Breloom has not been a major problem so far.
  8. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    I've actually been having success with a core of SR Gliscor and spikes Ferrothorn. between them I can litter the field with entry hazards and tank most attacks coming my way. With spinner Starmie completing the synergy, I can outlast most teams and can devote the rest of my slots to stopping specific threats like Tornadus and Thundurus. Steal is still viable, but your Pokémon need to actively chop at the opposing team-especially spinners, which seem to be on every team nowadays, as well as spinblockers.
  9. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

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    Sub/CM Jirachi is extremely good this metagame and can set up on Tornadus. Sometimes its better to leave it to use midgame. But I think its a decent option.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Seeing as CherubAgent mentioned Azumarill what's your opinion about it in this meta? I don't like the CB set as it is easy to play around and gives away a lot of momentum after killing something. The set i want to talk about is 4 attacks with Mystic Water, namely Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Ice Punch, and Superpower. Here are some cool calcs under rain:

    Show Hide
    Aqua Jet
    • vs Tornadus-T: 57.52 - 68.22%
    • vs Thundurus-T: 64.21 - 75.58%
    • vs Terrakion: 96.91 - 114.81%
    • vs Landorus: 98.43 - 116.61%
    • vs offensive Volcarona: 131.18 - 154.34%
    • vs Latios: 28.47 - 33.77%
    • vs Scarf Rotom-W: 28.09 - 33.47%
    • vs Gengar: 82.82 - 97.7%
    • vs Alakazam: 106.34 - 125.39%
    • vs Jolteon: 80.07 - 94.46%
    • vs offensive Starmie: 31.41 - 37.16%
    • vs NP Celebi: 21.11 - 24.92%
    • vs 56 HP Gyarados: 25.21 - 29.85%

    Waterfall
    • vs offensive Starmie: 62.83 - 73.94%
    • vs 252 HP Starmie: 50.61 - 59.56%
    • vs Scarf Rotom-W: 55.78 - 65.7%
    • vs Specs Politoed: 47.39 - 55.72%
    • vs Scarf Politoed: 56.69 - 66.66%
    • vs SpD Jirachi: 70.79 - 83.41%
    • vs Forretress: 48.3 - 57.06%
    • vs Skarmory: 49.4 - 58.38%
    • vs Keldeo: 48.29 - 56.96%
    • vs 56 HP Gyarados: 50.43 - 59.42%

    Superpower
    • vs standard Ferrothorn: 60.79 - 71.59% (40.9 - 48.29% at -1)
    • vs SpD Gastrodon: 51.17 - 60.32% (34.27 - 40.37% at -1)
    • vs 0 HP Kyurem-B: 81.32 - 96.16%
    • vs SubShuffler Kyu-B: 65.63 - 77.53% (2HKO with Aqua Jet most of the times after SR)

    Ice Punch
    • vs Latios: 79.47 - 94.03%
    • vs CM Latias: 59.89 - 70.87%
    • vs offensive Venusaur: 76.82 - 90.72%
    • vs NP Celebi: 58.65 - 69.2%
    • vs SpD Amoonguss: 62.03 - 73.14%


    As you can see Azumarill 2HKOs almost everything under rain except from Jellicent, Toxicroak, Tentacruel, defensive Politoed, and SpD Celebi, all of which are trapped and killed by Specs Gothitelle. It also makes for a very good revenge killer and is quite bulky for an offensive Pokemon. What do you think of this set?
  11. Cherub Agent

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    It's an awesome set, and the one that I used for the majority of the time. Bluffing a Choice Band is awesome as Dragons coming in on predicted Aqua Jets are annihilated as they try to set up. Choice Band is still perfectly valuable though for the incredible power that it brings, but I think that in the long run Splash Plate is the better option as the luring will mean that you often get a free KO. The only thing that I don't like about it is that it doesn't bring much to the team by virtue of defensive synergy, although there are worse types than water to double up on. The little fucker is bulky too though <3
  12. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

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    I beat Rain in general by setting up a 2v1 vs. Politoed, with SpD Hippowdon and SpD Celebi packing Sunny Day. Celebi can also pack T-Wave to discourage Torn-T switchins in general, but this requires a lot more prediction than Sunny Day.

    Often a scenario would be Hippo comes in to wall something and starts Sand, Choice Poli would then come in (taking hazard damage) and start Rain to threat it out, then I switch in Celebi, wall the hit, and Sunny Day on the Poli switch out. No matter if he goes to Torn-T or Scizor, he's almost certainly going to U-Turn out again back to Poli to restart the rain, and we can bring in a Skarm or something to wall the U-Turn and then go back to Celebi to take the Politoed hit.

    This might seem pretty unproductive, but this whole time Poli is taking Hazard damage (Hippo and Celebi are as well, but they have reliable recovery and leftovers so it's conceivable I might be able to figure out some way to extend their lives). If I can force Poli to wear all the way down and win the weather war, Torn-T is neutered anyway. Most teams packing double weather will want to use Ttar/Hippo instead, but since neither of them can really switch into Politoed I found that to be a less useful situation.
  13. Corumba

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    Having made reqs for this round, I want to post my opinion here.

    I'm pretty much going to echo what a lot of people have already said.

    Torn T, from my experiences since its release is definitely broken. The only counter it currently has is Jirachi with protect. Any other resist which can force it out ie Zapdos, cannot take repeated SR + Hurricane + U-turn. In this situation, if Zapdos roosts you just U-turn to a counter/ something to hit it hard and blast away anyway.

    Torn T will always grab momentum leading to free kills and more hazard damage. The amount of times I've had to sack something to Torn T is ridiculous. It is essentially the threat that keeps coming back, outlasting its counters, firing off hurricanes, taunting recovery moves whilst doing nothing to itself in the process via regenerator. You think you've pinned it down to a low amount, and it comes back at you with 33% more hp. The threat that keeps coming back.

    I generally use balanced teams, but have found this impossible with Torn T in the meta. Any decent player will ware you down over the course of a long game, with defensive backup like ferro to take your scarfers hits, you're going to have a hard time revenging it whilst it switches, only for it to come back later with more hp whilst you're locked into a move for your opponent to take advantage of. And no- you cant afford to predict the Ferro switch with a Torn T on the other side of the field.

    When making more defensive teams, I find myself loading up on the Spdef side just to tank its hits, it definitely constrains team building.

    In summary, jolly SD toxicroak absolutely rapes this metagame since everyone is running the exact same rain team which gets 6-0'd by it when you force your opponent to lock themselves into either a water move (see scarf politoed) or a weak HP ice (scarf keldeo).

    I knew as soon as it came out it was OP, and I hope enough others can see this too.
  14. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    How legitimate is SDef Skarm as a Torn-t "counter"?

    Here is a calc w/ SR equated: 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Skarmory (+SpDef) : 47.01% - 55.39% (2 hits to KO)

    Assuming the Torn-T predicts this switch in (which I do admit probably won't happen lol, but for arguments sake~) it can 2HKO this "counter". Also, Hurricane is a 3HKO; one confusion and its dead (which isn't exactly uncommon).

    What can Skarm do back (calc with SR)?: 0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs 0 HP/0 Def Tornadus-T: 43.14% - 51.17% (2 hits to KO)

    That means that Torn-T can safely fire a Hurricane and not worry about losing to BB and then finish it back with Hurricane...? So you're pretty much forced to keep roosting until it can escape KO range without having to roost (which means its liable to get confused for each roost).


    Now onto Zapdos:

    It's quite a legitimate counter. However, like Lavos said, its pretty much useless outside of that. Many other users have covered Zappy and I feel that I don't need to waste your time repeating what they said so lets move on ~

    Onto Tornadus-T's required support:

    It needs SR support (if your using the specs set you know what I mean: hardly anything can take more than one hurricane after SR), Rapid Spin, and Rain support. SR and Rain are common, but Rapid Spinning (however common) is a bit pushing it for "minimal" support imo. I'm not saying it isn't broken (which it is) but I am saying that it does need a bit more support than I've seen the other suspects needing. Not to mention that all you guys keep mentioning how Tenta + Ferro + Torn-T is a deadly combination since Ferro can stop Rachi and Wash, but you've already got like four support Pokemon if you include Politoed. I understand that might make the metagame cookie-cutter, but it's always been that way.

    tl;tr: Tornadus-T requires a bit more support than is given credit for. It's over-centralizing and lack of requirement to need to set up any speed or power to sweep are what make it broken.


    Onto the Revenge Killing Argument:

    While before I've mentioned that Wash's job was to prevent Torn-T set up so you could killing it later is EXACTLY what I meant, I think I gave the wrong impression. Revenge Killing can be used on ANY of the current Ubers and, obviously, Tornadus-T. That post on Wash was to explain how Wash is generally used to counter Tornadus-T, not to imply that Revenge Killing is a viable means of countering Tornadus-T. Simply because this can be applied to other current Uber Pokemon and the fact that in order to Revenge something generally something must die is, imo, why it shouldn't be used as a legitimate reason. If something has died to Torn-T so you can revenge it, Tornadus-T has did its job (and even then it can U-turn to continue to do its job).

    Onto "The U-turning Out Argument"

    Okay so I really hate this one. Sure it can U-turn out into another counter, but I don't see how that makes the "counter" a "check". If the counter can switch in and force Torn-T out than it should be a legitimate counter. Outliving the counter is on the player imo. It can keep U-turning out... and a good player could keep destroying Torn-T's support (like winning WW or destroying Ferrothorn) and all of a sudden Torn-T doesn't have a counter to U-turn out into. I think thats the simple concepts of battling... and although U-turn is an amazing move the player vs. Torn-T should be trying to destroy whatever is countering Wash and Rachi. And if I recall both Wash and Rachi can also U-turn or Volt-Switch into a Ferrothorn counter....

    Pain Split on Rotom-W.

    This recovery sucks. However, Wash has such low base HP that it can work if she isn't already status'ed with something like burn / poison. A Ferro switch in (Rotom-W taking 22% on the U-turn and being around 33%) can easily nab health from the Ferrothorn switch-in. It's low base HP makes it work better than some of you give credit for.

    It also gets ChestoRest, which is amazing for countering the LO set.

    What makes Torn-T broken then Shurtugal?!?

    1. It's ability to sweep at any time: That's one free turn it should be setting up that it gets to kill something / dent something. Simply by adding Specs, you have a Late Game sweeper, a Wallbreaker, a Scouter, and a Revenge Killer all in one!

    2. It's powerful Flying STAB, and the fact it's paired with Hurricane: So this isn't as "amazing" as HJK from Blaziken or EQ from Drill, but Hurricane possess a Flying type, an incredibly rare offensive STAB otherwise. It's rareness is what makes it broken -- because there are practically little to no Pokemon that can even resist Hurricane, and even fewer that can take it. (Chansey is not a counter or a check: taunt. Same for Skarm and Hippo imo). So people have to resort to revenge killing or late game sweeping to kill it (which is perfectly legitimate) but my beef is this could be applied to virtually any Uber (even Mewtwo / Arceus can't face +2 Atk / +1(2) Spe Terrakion).

    3. It's raw, immediate power: I think this is almost the same as one and two of my points, but I want to make sure its clear. Its "counters" are hard core fucked by any of its other coverage moves (Usually FB). The fact that it has hard-core strength and barely any viable switch ins make it difficult to deal with.


    4. Regenerator: Okay this ability is overrated since SR can put a handicap on it, but it still makes "stalling it out" near impossible unless it carries both LO and you've successfully poisoned or burned it. It's not a problem for HO teams, but stall players just see it as a cockblock to their stalling. Not to mention that stalling it is hard as it is already without this broken ability.

    5. Revenge Killers have PROBLEMS REVENGE KILLING IT: I've saved this one for last. For those of you who run LO Tornadus-T, you might have noticed you could run anything for the fourth slot, Taunt being the best one next to Sleep Talk.

    However, it gets ONE more viable move, that makes Revenge Killing hard. Protect. it works like ProtectTerrakion did in BW1, and it stops Revenge Killers hard since it isn't hard to switch into a resist into the choice'd threat after a single protect. It makes it a better scouting Pokemon as well, and just the audacity that Torn-T has an answer for RK as well is just intimidating and menacing.



    Conclusion:

    Wash is an underrated counter alongside Jirachi, but having to use them both is proof on how overcentralizing the metagame is. Torn-T is hard to stop and applies immediate offensive pressure and lacks the need to set up (which is 1 free turn to kill something). Please ban this broken Pokemon!

    As for Keldeo.... I'm voicing with the others on a "not uber" verdict.


    @Below:

    Virtually, I was referring to the LO set, but Specs also appreciates Spin support since it gets more longevity. Virtually the LO sets needs it more so it isn't penalized for using its LO damage, but if the specs set gets poisoned / burned (which is common vs. stall) spin support is good to have to help maintain pressure and longevity.
  15. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

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    Why does the specs set need rapid spin support? It has regenerator and doesn't take LO recoil so usally it can some in at 75% all game (or die). I am not sure the LO set even needs rapid spin.
  16. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i got reqs!!! let me give you my thoughts real quick because i don't think you've heard enough of them yet~

    tornadus-t: okay i do strongly feel this thing is broken, there are so many arguments for it being so e.g. base 121 speed, hurricane, u-turn, regenerator, its great bulk considering how offensive of a 'mon it is, severe lack of counters (it has like one solid counter and dugtrio/magnezone shits on it so that's nice) and the only arguments against it that i've seen that are even semi viable is stuff like "oh jirachi counters it" and "rotom-w/zong can outlast it", the second one is a flat out lie if you play torn-t correctly and jirachi countering it is irrelevant to whether or not it's broken, everything had counters including genesect which we also sent off to ubers for very similar reasons. 100% voting "ban" on this one.

    keldeo: man i've heard some great arguments for and against this thing, for its banning we have all the "plays like a swift swimmer" and "scarf set op" arguments which i can definitely relate to, not to mention the specs set is great for surprise value and can even 2hko latias, sdef celebi, toxicroak, etc. however as several people have pointed out over the course of this thread each set has its crippling flaws and the scarf set in particular loses to so many things that finding a hard counter for it on your team of 6 pokemon really is not a challenge. however you think you have one set countered and up pops another weird set like subcm or whatever and suddenly your tentacruel that beats the scarf keldeo set 1v1 is setup fodder for an easy sweep. keldeo is more versatile, if less powerful, than tornadus-t, and that's part of what makes me lean towards voting uber on it. however, if the vote was today, i'd have to "abstain" on this one.

    anyways those are my current thoughts, unless i hear anything really stupid i'll probably only be chiming in from time to time from now on, so maybe ginganinja can get a word in edgewise now
  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    1. Rain is the most common weather and the easiest to get up.
    2. 70% may be unreliable to sweep with but it is not shaky enough to for the OP to assume a miss. So the smart play under Sand/Hail is the same as under Rain. (Exceptions being sub/recover spamming and sun)


    I'm just going to group this with the next argument since it basically concerns the same thing: revenge killing

    Tornadus-T IS immune to revenge killing, just not in the same way as Excadrill. I talked about this at the end of my last post. (I understand almost nobody has the time to read through every page of this thread :P) To sum it up, there is no drawback to Tornadus-T switching out of a revenge killer as it doesn't require set up, isn't worn down by hazards, and none of its revenge killers can set up on its retreat. (Except Weavile but Tornadus is always paired with Politoed)

    Outside of Jirachi, the four counters you mentioned have a hard time finding team slots. As cool as these sets are, they are somewhat niche and/or suffer from extreme competition for their role. SpDef Skarm/Zapdos/Rotom-W are not Pokemon that easily buy their way into a team and so having these as counters does not prevent Tornadus-T from putting unbearable pressure on team building.
  18. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Guys can we stop shitting on Zapdos' life? I used it today and it actually walls entire rain teams by it self (the Subroost set). The only things that can damage it (water types) just get destroyed by Thunderbolt / Thunder. And Ferrothorn, on the contrary.. it gets walled shitless by Zapdos too.

    Anyway that is beside the point. Tornadus-T has some pretty solid counters in OU. Having actually used it AND played against it, Tornadus-T takes quite a bit of care to use. I managed to kill one today simply by going to Jirachi on Hurricane then switching to Ferrothorn on the U-turn. Between SR, 2 Life Orb recoils, Iron Barbs, and Rocky Helmet, Tornadus-T was screwed.

    EDIT: The tiering / viability of other pokemon in the current metagame should have no bearing on the suspect's status.
  19. yee

    yee
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    I'd just like to point out that Rotom-W and SpD Skarm are about the easiest possible things to fit on a team. Rotom-W is a leverage point against more things than any other pokemon I can think of, it (was) second only to Genesect at putting it's team in control, fits on any playstyle except heavy stall and happens to do well against the #1 threat in the metagame. Skarm isn't quite Rotom-W here but it still has one of the best defensive typings in the game and counters some key players like LO Lati@s without HP Fire while checking a bunch of things like Gengar / Torn-T which can give it the edge on your team.

    Even still, Torn-T's chances of staying OU are a fat zero. Whether people don't like it because it's clearly superior to everything else, isn't outrun by any very revelant threats, or is allowed to do damage early to late game, it will end up banned (unless between now and the vote there's some agreement to keep it so Rain is easier to ban).
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Sorry, that was the way I worded the sentence. I meant to say SpDef Skarm, SpDef Rotom, SpDef Zapdos but was trying to shorten it by justing putting Spdef up front (should have slashed)

    Skarm is a hard thing to fit on a team due to the offensive nature of the current metagame. Even on a stall team there are arguably better physical walls (ones that can beat common Terrakion like Hippo, Slowbro, and Gliscor), better support mons (Forretress and Ferro are tough guys to compete with) and better Sp Defensive walls (Blobs, Rachi, etc.). I'm not going to say Skarm is unviable or anything of the sort. It has good reasons to use it, just not ones that let you go slapping it everywhere like a Garchomp or Scizor. SpDefensive Rotom-W faces a lot of competition with other Rotom-W sets as it's much weaker. In general, balanced teams like a good pivot but HO and Stall can find better things to do with the slot. (The lack of power is unattractive for offense while stall wants better walls) Zapdos has an annoying SR weakness and thus requires the addition of a Rapid Spinner/Magic Bouncer.


    Obviously, there are going to be exceptions and that these are solid sets that should never be underestimated. They just aren't practical to try and fit into your team in most cases.
  21. SlimMan

    SlimMan

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    Gonna respond in hide tags. I can't see a good reason for everyone to have to read what I say to any given person.
    a refutation for communicationalt (open)
    Um, no, that's nowhere near what I said, and I'm not sure where you got it from. Don't be silly. I was merely pointing out that ginga was right, and the Weavile player can't afford to mispredict. But at the same time, the Tornadus player can't afford to mispredict either. Weavile vs Tornadus sucks for both players.

    Again, I said multiple times that I was trying not to provide a battle scenario. How Tornadus does against a real Stall is irrelevant to me. I've seen Tornadus destroy Stall teams, actually. But I was using those Pokemon as an example to point out Tornadus-T's trouble with actually getting in, which is one of the reasons I compared it to Dugtrio. You'll notice that in my next paragraph, I opened it by saying "Tornadus can easily get in and start tearing shit apart with a little prediction."


    a refutation for Meru (open)
    According to the November, Genesect-free Usage stats, Modest is THE most common nature on Volcarona. So yes, let's be real bro.
    Now, I'm currently working with putting more with calcs vs Tornadus in my post, because ginga showed me that one or two looks extraordinarily cherry-picked. Nonetheless, you can't really say that Tornadus "doesn't cave", given that it's one-shotted by the Fire Blast (in rain, in rain - Volcarona's 'strongest special attack in OU' is being halved). The section of my post with the calcs was flawed, but not for ANY of the reasons you just gave. >_> It was flawed because I used too small of a sample size, and because I went off on a tangent that was completely unrelated to anything else.

    Technically, Amoonguss could Spore Tornadus. But I get your point, and it's valid. Yes, Tornadus-T handicaps, even discourages the use of most walls that are too frail specially, or weak to Hurricane. For example, I saw like 3 Gliscor while I was laddering. Gliscor is just a free switch for Tornadus most of the time, and you can't typically afford that. This is where you can probably make one of the best arguments for Torn-T being broken. If Torn-T turns it into a liability to carry Pokemon like Gliscor, or Breloom, that could lead to something like Terrakion stepping up. I don't think anyone would call Terrakion broken here, but Tornadus's existence has made the lives of other sweepers remarkably easier.
    One last thing. Virizion dropped to UU in BW1, iirc. You can't possibly blame Tornadus-T for that.


    and an apologetic one for ginga (open)
    My bad, man. I really thought you were referring to the same kind of thing as how Ferrothorn can live Specs Latios HP Fires. I thought you meant in the same vein as Tyranitar tanking LO or Specs Heatran's Earth Powers. I didn't take a second to think that you made sense, and were referring to those sorts of attacks.
    I fully believe that Tornadus can survive the attacks you just listed. And (mostly) they're super effective too. But on the spectrum of attacks, those aren't exactly the strongest moves. I do think your original post was a little misleading though, if not technically truthful. :/

    In the battle, I fully think the Weavile player is in a weaker position. His (presumably) best check to Tornadus also gets OHKOed by the bird. Frankly, I doubt that the Weavile player will beat Tornadus-T even half the time if this situation happens every game.

    But in that very moment, it is a 50/50 for both. Risk/Reward shows that Tornadus is probably not as valuable as Weavile to their respective players, so I suppose I can't deny that you're right in that regard. The Weavile player knows that Risk/Reward is in the opponent's favor, so that might lessen his disadvantage a bit, maybe (not enough to offset the real problem though, obviously). The Tornadus player has a strategic advantage here, but it still sucks to lose your Tornadus, and there's no avoiding a 50/50 for that to happen however.

    I know this wasn't your point, and it isn't worth discussing, but I have to say something. If I see a Keldeo in Team Preview, Celebi is one of the last things I would sac against Tornadus, because it instantly becomes very valuable in that battle.

    I used these two Volcarona sets for one very arbitrary reason: They were the only two Volcarona which I encountered when getting reqs. I checked the usage stats to make sure the sets actually existed more than about 1% of the time, but that wasn't really doing anything. I just took the sets straight out of my battles.
    I'll grant you everything you said about how bulky Volcarona is much more common, but if I trust what you experienced battling to be true, can you do the same for me for a second?

    Now, the +1 boost wasn't exactly magic. I don't where it came from, because I'm not trying to theorymon a battle here for us. If you would like, I can say how my Jirachi switched into Tornadus, who U-Turned to Ferrothorn, and then I switched to Volcarona as it used Spikes, and then I used Quiver Dance. But that's all hypothetical and not really useful to anyone. Secondly, you wouldn't switch your Tornadus into it. That's the point I was trying to make. And third, I used a Timid Tornadus-T. Not a Naive one. I don't know why you think it had a - nature, but it didn't. :/

    So the real question here is why I used Volcarona at all. I used it because it was the only Pokemon I could think of off the top of my head who had two STABs which Torn-T essentially resists. If you can think of another example, please tell me.

    I think you've been completely fair in your reply to me, ginga, but I don't see where you defended me anywhere... I believe your battles, but the first part of that sentence baffles me. I find issue with your reply to me obviously, but I find it satisfactory too. My perceptions are unchanged, because they're based on the battles I had, just like your perceptions are based on your own battles. However, I am going to revise my post, because you made me realize that posting one Pokemon's attack vs Torn-T is a TERRIBLE demonstration of its bulk. If I have one regret about my post, it was using quotes by you, ginga. I could've found similar ones elsewhere, and I hate to upset you. :(
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I just want to say that SpD Skarmory is a shitty response to Torn-T. The Specs set simply destroys it either by 3HKOing with Hurricane (two Hurricane have roughly 50% chance to confuse) or by 2HKOing with Focus Blast and while it can take a few hits from the LO set and slowly wear it down it does not like playing mindgames against Taunt versions (80% of the LO Torn-T i see use Taunt and for good reason).

    However SpD Skarmory in general is a very good mon, especially in rain teams, where it walls the hell out of most Dragon types, making it the best Dragon counter in OU. It's usefulness doesn't stop there though as it can set-up all over Gengar, somewhat check LO Torn-T, and can counter CM Latias and NP Celebi, in addition to all the threats that Skarmory usually counters. Not a top tier mon, but definitely a very viable one.

    EDIT: Torn-T in no way invalidates Breloom or Celebi. SD Breloom can handily OHKO with Fight Gem Mach Punch if Torn-T has taken 10% prior damage with SR up, or simply Spore LO versions, while Celebi can either paralyze on the switch or just U-turn out, or hell even almost OHKO with LO Psychic. Yeah Torn-T can get a free switch if it predicts one of them coming in, but isn't the same true about CB Terrakion or Specs Keldeo predicting the obvious Chansey/Blissey/Ttar switch in against your Latios? And many other mons for that matter...
  23. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Just for kicks, here are calcs against most of the prominent threats in ou (utilizing tornadus-t's strongest move against each threat).

    Bolded=1hko'd 100% of the time

    Life orb:
    Show Hide

    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 21.5 - 25.12%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 27.72 - 32.9%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 27.97 - 33.16%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 28.21 - 33.41%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 28.21 - 33.41%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Metagross: 28.57 - 33.79%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 29.27 - 34.45%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Skarmory: 31.13 - 36.82%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 31.57 - 37.39%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 33.33 - 39.19%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 33.13 - 39.29%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 33.33 - 39.47%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 34.98 - 41.17%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 35.31 - 41.58%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 35.18 - 41.66%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 35.29 - 41.79%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 35.96 - 42.69%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Jirachi: 37.24 - 43.69%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 37.28 - 44.25%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 38.48 - 45.39%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 40.59 - 47.52%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 40.72 - 48.34%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 42.47 - 50.28%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragonite: 42.74 - 50.51%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Deoxys-D: 43.75 - 51.64%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 43.89 - 51.64%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 44.21 - 52.47%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 45.5 - 53.59%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Metagross: 45.51 - 53.82%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 45.66 - 54%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 49.14 - 57.95%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 49.72 - 58.79%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 50 - 58.88%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 51.4 - 60.69%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 51.51 - 60.82%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 51.48 - 61.13%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hippowdon: 52.38 - 62.14%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Ninetales: 52.85 - 62.28%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 53.39 - 63.12%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 53.57 - 63.18%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 53.57 - 63.18%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Magnezone: 53.77 - 63.37%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 54.09 - 63.77%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Dragonite: 55.44 - 65.54%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 56.1 - 66.23%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 56.25 - 66.4%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 56.77 - 66.92%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Ferrothorn: 56.69 - 66.95%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 57.36 - 67.51%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 57.36 - 67.51%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 57.14 - 67.85%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 57.76 - 68.44%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 57.76 - 68.44%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 58.54 - 68.91%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 59.11 - 70.05%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 59.11 - 70.05%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 59.35 - 70.07%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 60.07 - 70.75%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 59.93 - 70.86%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 60.53 - 71.73%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Reuniclus: 61.08 - 71.93%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 61.55 - 72.64%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 160 HP / 60 SpD Gastrodon: 62.03 - 72.95%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 62.2 - 73.54%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jolteon: 62.36 - 73.8%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 62.73 - 74.16%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 62.71 - 74.29%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 62.89 - 74.52%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 63.81 - 75.3%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tentacruel: 65.21 - 76.92%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 65.79 - 77.97%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 65.79 - 77.97%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 66.66 - 78.7%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 66.87 - 78.94%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Scizor: 67.34 - 79.59%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 68.25 - 80.52%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 68.58 - 81.26%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 68.58 - 81.26%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 68.96 - 81.72%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 68.87 - 81.78%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Hippowdon: 69.52 - 81.9%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 69.54 - 82.23%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 69.96 - 82.35%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 70.06 - 83.02%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 70.27 - 83.28%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 70.49 - 83.54%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 70.71 - 83.8%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 70.92 - 84.04%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 71.25 - 84.13%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 71.25 - 84.13%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 71.98 - 84.78%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 75.76 - 89.57%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 76.23 - 89.81%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 76.47 - 90.09%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 78.74 - 92.68%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 78.71 - 93.29%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 80.55 - 95.06%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 80.79 - 95.76%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 81.01 - 96.03%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-T: 82.6 - 97.65%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 82.92 - 98.51%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 84.66 - 99.69%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 85.57 - 100.62%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Forretress: 85.87 - 101.41%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 85.89 - 101.56%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 89.32 - 105.72%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 89.32 - 105.72%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 91.84 - 108.45%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 91.84 - 108.45%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tornadus-T: 91.63 - 108.69%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 94.75 - 112.15%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 95.01 - 112.46%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 95.29 - 112.53%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 97.15 - 114.23%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 98.28 - 116.49%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 99.23 - 116.85%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 99.61 - 117.55%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 100.66 - 118.87%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 103.4 - 122.1%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 103.57 - 122.22%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 102.97 - 122.27%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 107.8 - 127.3%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 109.16 - 129.38%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 109.47 - 130%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Abomasnow: 112.5 - 132.81%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 112.62 - 133.16%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 112.62 - 133.16%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 114.03 - 134.83%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 114.89 - 135.85%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 117.78 - 138.81%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 118.18 - 139.74%
    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 121.63 - 144.44%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 192 HP / 52 SpD Venusaur: 123.78 - 146.13%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 124.5 - 146.72%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 133.04 - 157.3%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 140.26 - 165.01%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 140.51 - 165.59%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 120 HP / 136 SpD Conkeldurr: 139.89 - 165.87%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Conkeldurr: 141.25 - 167.1%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 142.11 - 167.39%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 143.68 - 169.23%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 143.39 - 169.33%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 144.07 - 170.14%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 150.66 - 178.14%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 151.16 - 178.73%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 152.94 - 181.11%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 155.07 - 183.33%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 162.92 - 191.9%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 174.45 - 206.25%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Cloyster: 196.26 - 231.53%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 203.07 - 240.27%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 204.42 - 241.49%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 205.11 - 242.32%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 208.44 - 246.42%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 226.96 - 268.94%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 236 HP / 212+ SpD Breloom: 292.5 - 345.93%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magikarp: 386.26 - 454.94%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 429.06 - 506.87%
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 520.07 - 614.39%



    Specs:
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    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 24.09 - 28.75%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 31.28 - 36.8%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 31.86 - 37.3%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 31.81 - 37.5%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 31.93 - 37.62%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 33.67 - 39.63%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 40.24 - 47.36%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 40.26 - 47.52%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 40.43 - 47.53%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 40.55 - 47.67%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 43.31 - 50.99%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Metagross: 44.23 - 52.19%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 44.4 - 52.3%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 46.03 - 54.45%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Skarmory: 47.9 - 56.58%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 48.47 - 57.06%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragonite: 48.44 - 57.51%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 50 - 59.15%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Deoxys-D: 50.32 - 59.21%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 51.02 - 60.11%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 51.16 - 60.23%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Chople Berry Heatran: 51.23 - 60.49%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 52 - 61.66%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 55.84 - 65.78%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Jirachi: 56.89 - 67.15%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 57.23 - 67.43%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 57.14 - 67.58%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 57.14 - 67.59%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 58.96 - 69.54%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 59.09 - 69.69%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Ninetales: 60.28 - 71.42%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hippowdon: 60.71 - 71.42%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Ninetales: 60.28 - 71.42%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 61.26 - 72.52%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 61.35 - 72.56%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 62.03 - 73.2%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar: 61.88 - 73.26%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 62.33 - 73.76%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 63.24 - 74.5%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Dragonite: 63.73 - 74.87%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 65.1 - 76.82%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar: 65.34 - 77.22%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 66.24 - 77.91%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 66.2 - 78.29%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 66.66 - 78.62%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jolteon: 66.78 - 78.96%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon: 67.15 - 79.33%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 67.61 - 79.53%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 67.76 - 80.16%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 68.07 - 80.29%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 68.22 - 80.46%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 68.77 - 81.02%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 68.87 - 81.45%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 69.76 - 82.33%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 69.86 - 82.4%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Reuniclus: 70.04 - 82.78%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 70.28 - 83.01%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Metagross: 70.43 - 83.05%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 160 HP / 60 SpD Gastrodon: 71.46 - 84.11%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 71.51 - 84.59%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 72.31 - 85.59%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 72.86 - 86.06%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tentacruel: 74.24 - 87.62%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 44+ SpD Heatran: 75.52 - 89.06%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 75.56 - 89.2%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 75.94 - 89.56%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Scizor: 76.96 - 90.96%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 79.15 - 93.35%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 79.44 - 93.9%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 79.8 - 94.37%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Hippowdon: 80.23 - 94.52%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 80.8 - 95.04%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 80.86 - 95.37%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 81.11 - 95.66%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 81.36 - 95.96%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 81.61 - 96.26%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 81.73 - 96.4%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 82.6 - 97.34%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Magnezone: 85.46 - 100.58%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Ferrothorn: 87.17 - 102.56%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 90.94 - 106.96%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 90.96 - 106.99%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 91.97 - 108.64%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 93.5 - 110.45%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 93.76 - 110.76%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-T: 95.65 - 112.7%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 95.54 - 112.87%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 98.11 - 115.67%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 98.11 - 115.98%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Forretress: 98.58 - 116.38%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 102.16 - 120.74%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 102.46 - 120.98%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 102.6 - 121.09%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 105.43 - 124.47%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tornadus-T: 106.35 - 125.41%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 109.4 - 129.15%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 111.38 - 131.31%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 113.74 - 134.35%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 113.74 - 134.36%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 113.79 - 134.48%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 115.56 - 136.42%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 117.17 - 138.03%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 117.64 - 138.69%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 117.9 - 138.88%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 118.26 - 139.31%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 118.25 - 139.68%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 118.7 - 140.13%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 120.12 - 141.5%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 123.76 - 146.53%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 126.33 - 149.23%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Abomasnow: 128.64 - 152.08%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 129.7 - 152.97%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Tyranitar: 130.69 - 154.45%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 131.32 - 154.88%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 131.72 - 155.17%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 132.32 - 156.06%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 134.77 - 159.02%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 135.46 - 159.57%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 136.1 - 160.51%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 192 HP / 52 SpD Venusaur: 141.54 - 167.33%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 142.45 - 168.09%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 145.3 - 171.27%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 145.7 - 171.74%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 153.21 - 180.7%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 160.77 - 189.71%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 120 HP / 136 SpD Conkeldurr: 161.15 - 190.55%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 161.95 - 191.3%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Conkeldurr: 162.92 - 191.64%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 163.73 - 193.4%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 164.62 - 194.33%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 165.24 - 195.03%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 165.4 - 195.26%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 173.26 - 203.96%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 173.5 - 204.63%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 174.08 - 205.31%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 177.08 - 208.66%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 179.71 - 211.59%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 184.21 - 216.84%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 185.66 - 219.31%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 202.17 - 238.04%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 204.67 - 240.93%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 215.18 - 253.46%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 235.49 - 277.13%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 235.37 - 277.55%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 236.17 - 278.49%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 241.55 - 284.41%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 262.79 - 309.89%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Cloyster: 301.24 - 355.18%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 236 HP / 212+ SpD Breloom: 337.5 - 397.5%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magikarp: 443.95 - 523.07%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 492.5 - 581.25%
    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 596.96 - 704.54%



    Do with these what you will
  24. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,910
    these calcs are horrible. look through them for a sec, you'll see random stuff like super specially bulky dragonite, sdef landorus-t, sdef venusaur, 164 hp metagross...like seriously vemane where are you getting half these ev spreads? you calced a magikarp for god's sake, you can't expect us to take you seriously. and by showing us which pokemon torn-t can ohko 100% of the time with a life orb hurricane, what does that accomplish? are you trying to make a point that most things aren't ohko'd by torn-t and that's a reason to not ban it? if so that's one of the worst arguments i've seen in this thread, and trust me, i've read all of raikoulover's posts.

    torn-t's sheer power isn't what makes it broken, it's a contributing factor but far from the whole reason. you're taking one piece out of a thousand piece puzzle and telling us to examine it and see if you can tell what the entire puzzle is a picture of. it's impossible just by these calcs to determine whether or not something is uber. i really hope this isn't another desperate attempt by the "torn-t is ou" side of this argument to say "ha, look at this, magnezone (base 110 defense) isn't ohko'd by an unboosted superpower! suck on that, majority!"
  25. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    If you don't care about 164hp metagross, don't use it? And considering most of them are just basic 252/252 standard spreads, I don't exactly see why you are getting so worked up.

    I don't know where you pulled that argument out of my post, considering it is nothing besides a collection of calculations. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though <3


    Actually, I'm not telling you to do anything. I gave you calcs (which are, as you just stated, a contributing factor) and nothing more (in fact, I quite literally said "do with them what you wish"). But thanks again for rebutting an un-made argument! :D
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