np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

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Oh yes I agree that Stall teams hate Tornadus much more than HO. I just didn't go into much detail about that match-up since it didn't seem to be a major concern at the moment and I had already covered it in a earlier post.

Again, revenge killers are only temporary fixes. (Ignoring Sub/Tailwind fillers that are very much viable) They won't be enough in the long run which is why you are going to have to get an early sweep off to get around Tornadus. Tornadus against HO is kinda like a slow scarfer that can easily sweep things and isn't set-up fodder. Seeing as any decent team isn't going to treat Tornadus as their dedicated revenge killer and will thus pack a scarfer, an HO team has to go through the trouble of beating a peusdo double scarf team. Basically, Tornadus has everything it needs to adapt to whatever team it is up against.
 

blitzlefan

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252SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Hurricane vs 0HP/0SpDef Thick Fat Mamoswine (Neutral): 94% - 112% (342 - 405 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 69% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock).

252Atk Mamoswine (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 0HP/0Def Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 58% - 68% (174 - 206 HP).



Lets assume that I have the worst luck in the universe, and so I hit Torn-T for the very least damage I can do, so my Ice Shard hits for 58%. Factoring one Stealth Rock switch-in, we'll start off assuming Torn-T is at 75%. That first Hurricane to knock me to 1HP costs you 10% because of LO. Next, I Ice Shard, dealing 58%. You now have 7%. Now, the question is will you suicide and finish me off with Hurricane (assuming I Endeavor because I'm a laughable person) and risk the Ice Shard, or will you switch out? You can't U-Turn because the Life Orb damages finishes you off. So I'm forcing you to switch and the next time you come in, factoring in Regenerator, you have an whopping 15%, with a limit of two attacks (and you are required to switch in after I kill something or if I'm choice-locked into a Ground move as you're definitely not tanking anything). Also, there's a chance for me to OHKO with Ice Shard, after SR + 1 round of LO, so I think my Mamoswine does a decent job. Do you?
 

alexwolf

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Oh yes I agree that Stall teams hate Tornadus much more than HO. I just didn't go into much detail about that match-up since it didn't seem to be a major concern at the moment and I had already covered it in a earlier post.

Again, revenge killers are only temporary fixes. (Ignoring Sub/Tailwind fillers that are very much viable) They won't be enough in the long run which is why you are going to have to get an early sweep off to get around Tornadus. Tornadus against HO is kinda like a slow scarfer that can easily sweep things and isn't set-up fodder.
Revenge killers are not always temporary fixes. Many times when two offensive teams clash it comes down to which of the two will manage to sweep first. Your Torn-T is able to clean up easily after the opposing scarfer is gone and everything has been weakened a little sure, but the same is true for Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Latios, or Scarf Terrakion (i don't compare Torn-T to those Pokemon). So it all comes down to which player will make the best job at keeping healthy the checks he has for the most danerous Pokemon to his team.
 
I have been playing against a lot of Tornadus-T, and I have to say that the arguement that life-orb Tornadus-T can't come in indefinitely is pretty mute. After rocks + hurricane + u-turn, Tornadus-T is at 55% health, after regenerator Tornadus-T is only losing about 12% of its health every time it comes out. It can do this mindlessly for 8 times before they have to think, more than enough time to get a confusion with hurricane or a critical hit. Its not like they are stuck into that either, they can use taunt and save them selfs 10% of their health or just switch out instead of u-turning. Putting up rocks does little to help a team deal with Tornadus-T unless you are running a hard counter like Jirachi or Zapdos which can take more than 2 hurricanes.
 
Revenge killers are not always temporary fixes. Many times when two offensive teams clash it comes down to which of the two will manage to sweep first. Your Torn-T is able to clean up easily after the opposing scarfer is gone and everything has been weakened a little sure, but the same is true for Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Latios, or Scarf Terrakion (i don't compare Torn-T to those Pokemon). So it all comes down to which player will make the best job at keeping healthy the checks he has for the most danerous Pokemon to his team.
Except that Tornadus isn't a dedicated revenge killer so you have to worry about him sweeping (which is a lot easier as he can use LO/Specs to pump his attacks while being able to switch between them and abuse utility moves with the former) as well as whatever Scarfer is chosen for the team. Tornadus is going to threaten a sweep while helping your Scarf mon makes sure the other team doesn't pull one off.
 
252SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Hurricane vs 0HP/0SpDef Thick Fat Mamoswine (Neutral): 94% - 112% (342 - 405 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 69% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock).

252Atk Mamoswine (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 0HP/0Def Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 58% - 68% (174 - 206 HP).



Lets assume that I have the worst luck in the universe, and so I hit Torn-T for the very least damage I can do, so my Ice Shard hits for 58%. Factoring one Stealth Rock switch-in, we'll start off assuming Torn-T is at 75%. That first Hurricane to knock me to 1HP costs you 10% because of LO. Next, I Ice Shard, dealing 58%. You now have 7%. Now, the question is will you suicide and finish me off with Hurricane (assuming I Endeavor because I'm a laughable person) and risk the Ice Shard, or will you switch out? You can't U-Turn because the Life Orb damages finishes you off. So I'm forcing you to switch and the next time you come in, factoring in Regenerator, you have an whopping 15%, with a limit of two attacks (and you are required to switch in after I kill something or if I'm choice-locked into a Ground move as you're definitely not tanking anything). Also, there's a chance for me to OHKO with Ice Shard, after SR + 1 round of LO, so I think my Mamoswine does a decent job. Do you?
Well, I would if you always have no hazards on your side of the field and find an opponent who is willing to stay in and see if taking an Ice Shard from Mamoswine is a good idea with Tornadus-T (Pro tip:it isn't). You're going to risk something that can tear the opposing team apart for one kill (talking about sacking Tornadus for a kill here). Furthermore, Sashswine is generally used for SR on more offensive teams, so I'm wondering how you get SR on the field and if using a sash mon as a check is really a good idea.
 

alexwolf

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Except that Tornadus isn't a dedicated revenge killer so you have to worry about him sweeping (which is a lot easier as he can use LO/Specs to pump his attacks while being able to switch between them and abuse utility moves with the former) as well as whatever Scarfer is chosen for the team. Tornadus is going to threaten a sweep while helping your Scarf mon makes sure the other team doesn't pull one off.
This doesn't change the fact that Scarfers can revenge kill Torn-T while also threatening many offensive teams in the long run, meaning that Torn-T can't switch out mindlessly like many people here imply or straightly claim. Which means that offensive teams can use Scarfers to deal with Torn-T. Whether or not this is enough to make Torn-T handleable is another story, i am just stating the ways that offensive teams have to check Torn-T, while also posing a a threat to the whole team of Torn-T in the long run (Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Latios being the best examples of such scarfers).
 
Lets assume that I have the worst luck in the universe, and so I hit Torn-T for the very least damage I can do, so my Ice Shard hits for 58%. Factoring one Stealth Rock switch-in, we'll start off assuming Torn-T is at 75%.
First off, where the hell are you getting rocks from? I assume you have rocks on that Mamoswine and I doubt you're running Stealth Rock on 2+ mons. So you expect that very same Mamoswine to get up Stealth Rocks without taking a single hit/get status'd, switch Mamoswine in after Tornadus-t kills something WHILE there are no hazards whatsoever on the field AND while Mamoswine is at perfect HP? Wow, you must be one hell of a player to pull that off consistently.

Edit: Ningildo sorta ninja'd me
 
This doesn't change the fact that Scarfers can revenge kill Torn-T while also threatening many offensive teams in the long run, meaning that Torn-T can't switch out mindlessly like many people here imply or straightly claim. Which means that offensive teams can use Scarfers to deal with Torn-T. Whether or not this is enough to make Torn-T handleable is another story, i am just stating the ways that offensive teams have to check Torn-T, while also posing a a threat to the whole team of Torn-T in the long run (Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Latios being the best examples of such scarfers).
Most decent offensive teams aren't going to let themselves get creamed by a Scarfmon. They are very easy to set up on and tend to be lured into taking a kill so that a second sweeper can boost up and sweep past it. Tornadus doesn't fall into this group as there is nothing that can sit there and set up in its face. Again, how the revenge killer fairs against the rest of the team is impossible to say with accuracy as almost anybody can be on a Rain team. Saying that forcing out Tornadus is okay cause it can sweep the rest of the team is situational and isn't dealing with the fact that he is probably going to come right back in later and blast off more Hurricanes.
 
This doesn't change the fact that Scarfers can revenge kill Torn-T while also threatening many offensive teams in the long run, meaning that Torn-T can't switch out mindlessly like many people here imply or straightly claim. Which means that offensive teams can use Scarfers to deal with Torn-T. Whether or not this is enough to make Torn-T handleable is another story, i am just stating the ways that offensive teams have to check Torn-T, while also posing a a threat to the whole team of Torn-T in the long run (Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Latios being the best examples of such scarfers).
Agreed! I don't mean to theorymon, but that is how HO really doesn't care too much about T-T or Keldeo. The battle progression usually isn't about Tornadus-T, it is about winning the game. Maybe you intentionally sack your +1 Dragonite to Scarf Keldeo to reveal your SD Luke in the wings. Tornadus-T is completely irrelevant at that point.

This is precisely the argument I've been preaching about T-T switching in. He can't switch in to much and is basically a revenge killer that prevents set-up. However, if you are pre-emptive in your attack he becomes moot regardless of if he is alive or not. He can only check slower things, meaning HO teams with speed boosters or priority sweepers don't think twice about him. And as I said before, he stays in his pokeball until he can actually revenge kill things.

Saying that forcing out Tornadus is okay cause it can sweep the rest of the team is situational and isn't dealing with the fact that he is probably going to come right back in later and blast off more Hurricanes.
He can, but because he checks virtually nothing, when does he get this opportunity?
 
He checks a lot of things like any other slow Scarfer (think base 70). It's not the only thing he can do though as he is a very diverse toolbox in one set. He can wallbreak, help win weather war Rain Dance, set up a Tailwind sweep, lurk behind a Substitute, etc.

Getting to sweep past him isn't that easy as you got two revenge killers that can deal with different threats. Tornadus for the ones that can't pump up their speed and your ScarfMon for whatever your team can't handle. It's not fun trying to get your DD Dragon up before you run out of checks to Tornadus or mons to scrap to bring in your revenge killer.
 
I find Tornadus easy to deal with on offensive teams and easy to check on defensive teams. I use Keldeo and Tornadus on the same and I always meets that defensives that give me trouble. Toxicroak plus Chansey checks Tornadus and Keldeo
 
I was talking about HO...

Well since Stall has been brought up, I'll talk a bit about it. Basically Stall needs passive damage to get it's kills and regenerator really screws with that. All Tornadus has to do is come in on something it threatens (think physical walls) for free as it often can against the passive Stall team and then Hurricane/Superpower holes into the team. Like Alexwolf said, Stall's long games are just begging for the confusion hax needed to get past those checks and clean up a team. Sub/Taunt screws with status while the latter makes it stupidly easy to run through a Stall team. If you didn't opt for one of these moves just bring Tornadus in on a Burn to avoid Toxic or Twave as regenerator will be enough to keep burn from bringing the bird down.
 
I was talking about HO...

Well since Stall has been brought up, I'll talk a bit about it. Basically Stall needs passive damage to get it's kills and regenerator really screws with that. All Tornadus has to do is come in on something it threatens (think physical walls) for free as it often can against the passive Stall team and then Hurricane/Superpower holes into the team. Like Alexwolf said, Stall's long games are just begging for the confusion hax needed to get past those checks and clean up a team. Sub/Taunt screws with status while the latter makes it stupidly easy to run through a Stall team. If you didn't opt for one of these moves just bring Tornadus in on a Burn to avoid Toxic or Twave as regenerator will be enough to keep burn from bringing the bird down.
I haven't seen a full stall or semi-stall team this gen that doesn't have Skarmory or Jirachi, who both annoy Tornadus-T. He's not as much of a dick to stall as you think.

He checks a lot of things like any other slow Scarfer (think base 70). It's not the only thing he can do though as he is a very diverse toolbox in one set. He can wallbreak, help win weather war Rain Dance, set up a Tailwind sweep, lurk behind a Substitute, etc.

Getting to sweep past him isn't that easy as you got two revenge killers that can deal with different threats. Tornadus for the ones that can't pump up their speed and your ScarfMon for whatever your team can't handle. It's not fun trying to get your DD Dragon up before you run out of checks to Tornadus or mons to scrap to bring in your revenge killer.
We should be careful about saying he can do X, Y, and Z, when in reality he is doing X, Y or Z. If you run Rain Dance / Tailwind, you don't have Taunt and can't break things like Chansey. I've never seen Substitute because it is outclassed by Tornadus-I. And let's not overstate Tornadus-T's speed because every Dragon Dancer / Shell Smasher / Chlorophyller / Speed booster outruns it comfortably with minimal investment.
 

Shurtugal

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RaikouLover, perhaps stall teams all have Jirachi or Skarmory (which can be Phy Def) because they need a tornadus-T check, because boned without it and thus proving overcentralzation. I know this is the case for offensive teams, forced to use Jirachi or Wash because SOMETHING needs to take Hurricane more than once.
 
I'm gonna take a different standpoint and say that Keldeo is more potent of the two.
I personally don't have troubles with either because I have specially defensive Rotom-w, and a Latias with of course TTar to get rid of rain.
However, that doesn't make Keldeo less of a threat. Pair it with banded TTar. Not even banded, just some attack investment. Keldeo comes in. double switch into TTar. That is all.
Nearly every Check or Counter to Keldeo, outside of toxicroak is easily pursuit trapped against TTar.
 
We should be careful about saying he can do X, Y, and Z, when in reality he is doing X, Y or Z. If you run Rain Dance / Tailwind, you don't have Taunt and can't break things like Chansey.
Actually, LOnadus only needs one U-turn on Chansey to put it into Superpower 2HKO + SR range, IIRC.
 
I haven't seen a full stall or semi-stall team this gen that doesn't have Skarmory or Jirachi, who both annoy Tornadus-T. He's not as much of a dick to stall as you think.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3474251
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3475645

None of these teams had SpDef Skarm and only one packed Wish Protect Jirachi. (Without Protect a good Torna player won't let Jirachi stick around the extra turn to profit from it) He's an absolute menace to Stall if you don't pack SpDef WishProtect Rachi, SpDef Zapdos, or ScarfGoth as Alexwolf said. Stall means the turns will be long so all your checks (and possibly even your counters) will fall to Confusion hax unless you have REALLY good luck. The passive play gives him plenty of switch-in opportunities.

We should be careful about saying he can do X, Y, and Z, when in reality he is doing X, Y or Z. If you run Rain Dance / Tailwind, you don't have Taunt and can't break things like Chansey. I've never seen Substitute because it is outclassed by Tornadus-I. And let's not overstate Tornadus-T's speed because every Dragon Dancer / Shell Smasher / Chlorophyller / Speed booster outruns it comfortably with minimal investment.
Sorry I worded that wrong. I was just trying to point out how versatile Tornadus can get playwise with one set and how many cool fillers he has at his disposal to lend your team a helping hand against a particular team type. I never overstated his speed as I had compared him to a slow scarfer. This isn't a problem as every good team packs a dedicated revenge killer that'll take care of those threats. (or they have defensive answers to them but you get my point) Adding a Tornadus to your team is very practical as it functions as a second scarfer for HO teams and a wall breaker for Stall teams. It easily adapts to any opponent and gives you an across the board advantage.


Oh and SubTornadus-T is legit and not at all outclassed by Torna-I, just ask Darkfallenangel. It helps make HO fights easier as, generally, the first response is to scrap something to Hurricane and then bring in your revenge killer. Sub allows you to benefit from the retreat, outspeed and blow away the switch-in with Hurricane, and then leave your opponent in an "Oh, crap" moment as they try to figure out how they can remove the Sub for their ScarfMon.
 

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Oh and SubTornadus-T is legit and not at all outclassed by Torna-I, just ask Darkfallenangel. It helps make HO fights easier as, generally, the first response is to scrap something to Hurricane and then bring in your revenge killer. Sub allows you to benefit from the retreat, outspeed and blow away the switch-in with Hurricane, and then leave your opponent in an "Oh, crap" moment as they try to figure out how they can remove the Sub for their ScarfMon.
I can vouch for that. I used him once in the early BW2 days, and I got tons of KOs that normally I wouldn't have, especially against HO teams like you said. You can't forget the importance of surprise factor! Also, I play Hyper Offense most of the time, and the idea of having to deal with a subed Tornadus-T makes me groan just thinking about it.
 

alexwolf

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Most decent offensive teams aren't going to let themselves get creamed by a Scarfmon. They are very easy to set up on and tend to be lured into taking a kill so that a second sweeper can boost up and sweep past it. Tornadus doesn't fall into this group as there is nothing that can sit there and set up in its face. Again, how the revenge killer fairs against the rest of the team is impossible to say with accuracy as almost anybody can be on a Rain team. Saying that forcing out Tornadus is okay cause it can sweep the rest of the team is situational and isn't dealing with the fact that he is probably going to come right back in later and blast off more Hurricanes.
I didn't say that forcing out Torn-T is ok, i said that Scarfers can outspeed and KO Torn-T, therefore forcing it out. As for your statement that most decent offensive teams won't be swept by a scarfmon it's not entirely true. A scarf Latios can clean up a weakened rain team with just Thunder, provided you got rid of Ferrothorn (Magnezone support helps here) and a little residual damage on the rest of the team. Don't forget that the standard rain offense team (Politoed + Keldeo + Starmie / Tenta + Torn-T) is quite weak to electric moves. Likewise many offensive teams in general (not rain teams especially) are very weak to Scarf Keldeo, which has been mentioned as a big threat for such teams many times in this thread. So you can see that some Scarfmons can indeed pose a significant level of threat against some offensive teams.

Finally, just for the record, those are the Pokemon capable of setting up on Torn-T and threaten a rain team if they can come in for free: Agility Thundurus-T, any CM Jirachi, SubPass Jolteon, SpD SD Scizor, TR Reuniclus. Not trying to prove anything just showing which are the few Pokemon that are actually able to set-up on against Torn-T and threaten with a counter-sweep (or at least with serious damage in Jolteons case).
 

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Finally, just for the record, those are the Pokemon capable of setting up on Torn-T and threaten a rain team if they can come in for free: Agility Thundurus-T, any CM Jirachi, SubPass Jolteon, SpD SD Scizor, TR Reuniclus. Not trying to prove anything just showing which are the few Pokemon that are actually able to set-up on against Torn-T and threaten with a counter-sweep (or at least with serious damage in Jolteons case).
Might want to reword this. Choice Specs Tornadus murders your SD Scizor, and seeing as CB Bullet Punch cannot OHKO without SR or a hindering nature, Tornadus-T can very well justify staying in and slamming you with Hurricane for the 2KO (or go for a 50% chance of a KO with HeatWave but im assuming your not setting up on that). I don't really consider SDef Scizor being good against rain teams anyway, with Rotom-W / Tenta / Toed / Keldeo all being common and threatening with boosted water moves / WoW / Scald etc etc. TR Rank is sort of a 50/50 as well, since Hurricane does a massive amount. Worth noting that unless Torn is Naive Psychic doesn't OHKO (IIRC) so it wins there, and most rain teams have Ferrothorn which outspeeds you under TR anyway and revenges. In both cases of Scizor and Rank, you need Torn to be using the -Def or SDef nature in order to win (or SR), which is a bit of a gamble to take since Timid, Hasty and Naive are fairly common and if you get it wrong, you lost your sweeper (and something else if you brought it in after Torn killed something). Sure, SR is a common battle condition and all that, just pointing out its not quite as "safe" as it seems.

Ill give you Thundurus-T, Jirachi and Jolteon tho.
 

alexwolf

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This is why i mentioned bulky SD Scizor which takes 71.51 - 84.59% from a Specs Hurricane, meaning that it always lives after SR. It can then do back 73.57 - 87.29% with +2 BP to Timid Torn-T, which has a 87.5% chance to OHKO after SR, or always OHKOes if you use Iron Plate. Also Psychic from TR Reuniclus does 74.91 - 88.62% to Timid Torn-T, 93.75% chance to OHKO after SR.

And yeah i agree with you that bulky Scizor isn't as good against rain offense teams, but it is still an option that can work with the right amount of support.

GINGA EDIT Yes I did the calculations myself, my point still stands tho so idk?
 
Considering Bullet Punch is resisted by Water-types and Bug Bite is resisted by a metric shitton of common Rain Pokémon (Keldeo, Tentacruel, Thundurus), so you're probably not doing a whole lot of sweeping.
 
RaikouLover, perhaps stall teams all have Jirachi or Skarmory (which can be Phy Def) because they need a tornadus-T check, because boned without it and thus proving overcentralzation. I know this is the case for offensive teams, forced to use Jirachi or Wash because SOMETHING needs to take Hurricane more than once.
SpD jirachi was a staple on stall teams long before torn-t was around, since it was one of the only pokes capable of taking repeated draco meteors. Torn-t is great and maybe even broken but are you seriously claiming the #21 poke in OU is overcentralizeing?! We're not talking about genesect here; it's not even top 20 much less top 10.
 

Lavos

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SpD jirachi was a staple on stall teams long before torn-t was around, since it was one of the only pokes capable of taking repeated draco meteors. Torn-t is great and maybe even broken but are you seriously claiming the #21 poke in OU is overcentralizeing?! We're not talking about genesect here; it's not even top 20 much less top 10.
Haven't posted here in a couple pages, but this prompted me to step in. You're seriously trying to claim that pre-Torn-T stall teams all had SDef Jirachi on them? That's flat-out wrong. Look at one of the best and most used stall teams of BW1, M Dragon's rain stall. Not a Jirachi in sight there, and that's because, unlike Tornadus-T, Tornadus-I and other premier BW1 special attacks were all checked extremely well by a combination of Chansey and entry hazards damage. Need more proof? Check out undisputed's rain stall, another take on stall in the BW1 era. It has a Jirachi, yes, but it's SubCM, solely used for late-game cleaning once its checks have been weakened. undisputed still packs a Blissey for special attackers, too. This ought to be enough for you to accept that your claims are absurd, but I can list more great pre-Torn-T stall teams without SDef Rachi if you need me to (Stunt's Sun Stall and Lady Bug's revamped Hail Stall come to mind). The only reason we've seen a rise in the usage of SDef Rachi, Bronzong, and even Zapdos on stall or semi-stall teams is because without one of these three Pokemon on your stall team, it's going to be picked to pieces by a Life Orb set from Torn-T (and if you use one of the latter two, you might still lose anyway).

And briefly on the issue of Torn-T being #21 in usage stats, while Keldeo barely even makes the top 50, you guys have to remember that these statistics are not an accurate representation of the ladder. Most people who play the OU ladder on Showdown simply aren't the kind of quality players that represent our competitive metagame. If you want a roughly accurate representation of real competitive usage stats, I suggest you take a look at the November Suspect Ladder's rankings, where Keldeo weighs in at #4, and Torn-T hovers around #10. Regardless, usage stats should not be an argument for or against either suspect. I'm just stating the facts.
 
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