I don't think you're looking at this logically. NONE of them can stop Tornadus-T from switching out. By your logic, Genesect wouldn't have been banned because "It's not our problem if it gets a Special Attack boost."
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane
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Ok here are my thoughts on Tornadus-T, Tornadus-T has several large issues which prevent it from being a dominating force, the first being its lack of power to actually sweep. Unless you are directly weak to hurricane, you can and will be able to take a hit from Tornadus-T and possibly 1HKO in return. Almost anything can check it. The best Tornadus-T can do is pull off a late game sweep once everything is weakened significantly.
If anything, I believe Tornadus-T needs to be looked at being 'broken' by support characteristics. Tornadus-T is infact an amazing wall breaker, switching it in on a Tornadus-T weak pokemon forces a user (if they lack Jirachi or another counter) to make a sharp decisions in battle. Unless you have wizardly prediction, odds are that you will lose a pokemon right there, even if you are just sacking weakened pokemon. This would not be so much of a problem if Tornadus-T was limited to switching in 3-4 times because of rocks like his brother (which mind you is stronger than Tornadus-T but was never considered even on the table for uber in BW1). Regenerator allows Tornadus-T to pretty much become an omnipresent force in the battle, knocking out weakened team members until the weather changes or its killed off for some reason.
So basically, when building a team in this metagame, you pretty much have 3 options: 1. if you use a pokemon weak to Tornadus-T, you must have a dedicated Tornadus-T counter 2. go hyper offensive or don't use anything weak to Tornadus-T 3. be at a massive disadvantage when you play against Tornadus-T.
It comes down to this question then: is it acceptable to force pretty much all balanced teams to run a direct counter for Tornadus-T? A similar situation has already come up in BW before, without something like Jirachi, Scizor, or Tyranitar, any balanced team is up shits creak without a paddle if they face specs-Latios with a mind to spam draco-meteor.
I personally am not sure, I don't particularly like the idea that a balanced team must use a pokemon, but fact is that has already happened several times in this metagame, and I don't see much to differentiate Tornadus-T.
Also superpower Tornadus-T does not 2HKO Chansey, even specially defensive versions (that aren't stupid) unless its running taunt or bulk up, its a perfectly acceptable counter.
If anything, I believe Tornadus-T needs to be looked at being 'broken' by support characteristics. Tornadus-T is infact an amazing wall breaker, switching it in on a Tornadus-T weak pokemon forces a user (if they lack Jirachi or another counter) to make a sharp decisions in battle. Unless you have wizardly prediction, odds are that you will lose a pokemon right there, even if you are just sacking weakened pokemon. This would not be so much of a problem if Tornadus-T was limited to switching in 3-4 times because of rocks like his brother (which mind you is stronger than Tornadus-T but was never considered even on the table for uber in BW1). Regenerator allows Tornadus-T to pretty much become an omnipresent force in the battle, knocking out weakened team members until the weather changes or its killed off for some reason.
So basically, when building a team in this metagame, you pretty much have 3 options: 1. if you use a pokemon weak to Tornadus-T, you must have a dedicated Tornadus-T counter 2. go hyper offensive or don't use anything weak to Tornadus-T 3. be at a massive disadvantage when you play against Tornadus-T.
It comes down to this question then: is it acceptable to force pretty much all balanced teams to run a direct counter for Tornadus-T? A similar situation has already come up in BW before, without something like Jirachi, Scizor, or Tyranitar, any balanced team is up shits creak without a paddle if they face specs-Latios with a mind to spam draco-meteor.
I personally am not sure, I don't particularly like the idea that a balanced team must use a pokemon, but fact is that has already happened several times in this metagame, and I don't see much to differentiate Tornadus-T.
Also superpower Tornadus-T does not 2HKO Chansey, even specially defensive versions (that aren't stupid) unless its running taunt or bulk up, its a perfectly acceptable counter.
I just had a battle with a scenario like that a while ago. After taking out toed and setting up sun, tornadus came charging in, and u-turned in and out. Even without rain, it can act as an annoying supporter pivot who regenerates after leaving the field. The only way I've found to take it down effectively without a scarfer, priority attacker, or joleteon is: 1)make sure your "counter" doesn't die, 2)make sure rain never hits the field, 3)make sure its the last member on the other team, and 4)wear it down. This is probably just me, but it's easier said than done. Tornadus will keep switching in and out to an appropriate counter to your counter as long as its not the only one left on its team.
But, in all fairness, its a lot less difficult to manage once rain is permanently off the field. It's really not an offensive threat though: it's a stall breaker, semi-wall breaker, supporter, and pivot all in one pokemon. And since it's only a real tornado under rain and it relies completely on wet weather, why isn't it just banned from drizzle teams (like swift swim) and made forced to rely on rain dance, cast either by itself or its teammates? In any case, I just want it out of OU. It's nice to have him around, but he really breaks down balanced and other creative teams and forces you to do what everyone else is doing... a bit of fun is lost in that, IMO.
Any pokemon can switch out unless the opposing pokemon has shadow tag or arena trap or used a move like block. That is a part of the rules. Pokemon can switch out! That doesn't mean that pokemon failed. A tornadus-T in a pokeball is not doing much. Rotom did its job.
I don't let it come in unharmed in the first place. If it comes in it has to either take some damage or risk the pokemon that he u-turned into being set up bait. That is where smart team building comes in. You cant build a team to be be rock paper scissors anymore. That is why people are calling this guy uber when the fact is this pokemon is:
-completely useless outside rain
-Fragile from a metagame perspective
-open to thunder wave and other status
-did I mention completely useless outside rain?
edit: he deleted his post.
Again I throw the Excadrill and Manaphy agruement at you. Neither of there would be broken without weather support. We are looking at the Pokemon as a whole, including support.
I disagree completely. I've been running hail and sun stall teams with great success. Mind you, these two archetypes are the most difficult to pull off. W/o Rain its mediocre. You can't deny that. I've done careful switching and good prediction to get around Tornadus-t. While I'm not going to deny it's the most threatening pokemon on the opposing team(actually kyurem-b is more scary...) it is manageable. You guys are letting tornadus walk all over too easily. Strip away its favorite conditions, and viola, you have a sub-par threat to deal with.
The difference is manaphy and excadrill are powerful pokemon regardless of weather. The weather just takes them over the top. you can switch a ninetales or tyranitar into a manaphy and get koed by +6 surf/hydro pump. You can switch a ninetales into excadrill and get koed by +2 earthquake or rock slide. With changing the weather you kill torn-t's trump card: a 100% accurate hurricane. Then all you have is a piss weak u-turn and superpower.
Excadrill is nowhere near broken without Sand Rush. It is far too slow to do anything in OU.
Manaphy's CM set would be outclassed by Keldeo and the Tail Glow set fails to defeat Jellicent or Blissey and would be prone to being revenge killed easily.
You can't ignore certain factors about a Pokemon to make them seem more tame. That is not the point of this discussion. We are looking at both Tornadus-T and Keldeo, including every aspect of their potential.
i don't know why we're mentioning garbage like jolteon and zapdos vs tornadus. the whole point of tornadus's bullshit is that most of its switch-ins don't have proper healing as they just switch right back to ferrothorn to take your damage and heal their tornadus for more than your sr can hurt them. spikes ferrothorn + tornadus-t literally handles jirachi rotom-w jolteon etc.
i called zapdos garbage because it is pretty much but i will say it at least has roost (and jirachi at least has wish making it the best counter by far) although its hindered by a weakness to sr (it'll roost as ferro comes in for free and spike). but that doesn't change the fact that tornadus's regenerator + a spikes leech seed ferrothorn is really way too good in ou at the moment because of tornadus's amazing speed, amazing move, etc.
ninetales is a good check i guess but the problem is sr/spikes weak, no healing, and politoed is a trio of things. i guess we can play the i counter you you counter me game all day though and say ninetales has a spinner but the rain team has a jellicent but the ninetales has a cb weavile as insurance etc etc. thats just dancing around the fact that tornadus as it stands has an incredible stab attack, an incredible ability that lets it just spam attacks, AND, can easily be using an acrobatics/superpower/taunt/u-turn set, or even life orb hurricane + u-turn into counters.
im actually kind of annoyed because this reminds me so much of skymin last gen where we list counters and checks (funny how most of their counters and checks are basically the same) and yet i think we all pretty much knew how busted skymin was. tornadus-t is the exact same thing except it just handles the power and incredible speed part, and becomes a perfect teammate and abuser of the leech seed + spikes part (hell not even skymin got the luxury of spikes). i usually dislike comparing stuff but its appropriate to think practically here and not just a game of "this checks that and this counters that"
also i made a template on how to build a winning team on PS
:P no but seriously, this is ridiculous i swear this is the structure of basically every team i play at this point ;_; even i started using it
i called zapdos garbage because it is pretty much but i will say it at least has roost (and jirachi at least has wish making it the best counter by far) although its hindered by a weakness to sr (it'll roost as ferro comes in for free and spike). but that doesn't change the fact that tornadus's regenerator + a spikes leech seed ferrothorn is really way too good in ou at the moment because of tornadus's amazing speed, amazing move, etc.
ninetales is a good check i guess but the problem is sr/spikes weak, no healing, and politoed is a trio of things. i guess we can play the i counter you you counter me game all day though and say ninetales has a spinner but the rain team has a jellicent but the ninetales has a cb weavile as insurance etc etc. thats just dancing around the fact that tornadus as it stands has an incredible stab attack, an incredible ability that lets it just spam attacks, AND, can easily be using an acrobatics/superpower/taunt/u-turn set, or even life orb hurricane + u-turn into counters.
im actually kind of annoyed because this reminds me so much of skymin last gen where we list counters and checks (funny how most of their counters and checks are basically the same) and yet i think we all pretty much knew how busted skymin was. tornadus-t is the exact same thing except it just handles the power and incredible speed part, and becomes a perfect teammate and abuser of the leech seed + spikes part (hell not even skymin got the luxury of spikes). i usually dislike comparing stuff but its appropriate to think practically here and not just a game of "this checks that and this counters that"
also i made a template on how to build a winning team on PS
Politoed @ Leftovers
Trait: Drizzle
- Perish Song
- Scald
- Protect
- ???
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Trait: Rain Dish
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- ???
- ???
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- ???
Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Trait: Arena Trap
- Stealth Rock
- Reversal
- Earthquake
- ???
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Regenerator
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Focus Blast
- ???
??? @ Gimmick Item
Trait: ???
Trait: Drizzle
- Perish Song
- Scald
- Protect
- ???
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Trait: Rain Dish
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- ???
- ???
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- ???
Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Trait: Arena Trap
- Stealth Rock
- Reversal
- Earthquake
- ???
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Regenerator
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Focus Blast
- ???
??? @ Gimmick Item
Trait: ???
:P no but seriously, this is ridiculous i swear this is the structure of basically every team i play at this point ;_; even i started using it
The problem with him is the fact that he's NOT useless outside of the rain, it's one of few rain abussers who can actually still be annoying as hell and support it's team doing wallbreaking and stuff like a king without suffering damage at all. Yeah, it has counters and checks, but let's think about it: Hydreigon is 100% OU, and he doesn't have any counter on the entire NU to OU metagame. While Genesect had some counters, but he's obviously Uber, so, not having counters =/= being broken.
The problem, in fact, of the great to total majority of the Pokémon is trying to win a clean or good switch-in, for example Hydreigon suffers as hell by a good ammount of attacks or move if he tries to switch-in, and he's not a god-like revenge killer like Genesect, either, well, actually, the same happens with Tornadus-T, but... the difference is it's ability, Regenerator, who, useless you had Stealth Rock + A Super-Effective attack against him, he'll be able to Switch-In by an almost infinite ammount of times and wreak havoc with it's 100% Hurricane on rain, or for U-Turning, or for Wall Breaking, or just for use support moves or protect with coverage it's partners. We could say the same of the others Regenerator users, but... Tornadus-T is the only one who had legendary BST, awesome speed, inmunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and doesn't had weakness to Pursuit or Dugtrio, combine it to being able to also abuse of the Rain (the most powerful weather), cover almost flawless the weaks of it's Rain Partners, and a nice moveset... and you have a monster who is able to do the job of 2-3 Pokémon in one, and better.
He'll lost at the long run, but by the moment, he did more than any other OU Pokémon.
The problem, in fact, of the great to total majority of the Pokémon is trying to win a clean or good switch-in, for example Hydreigon suffers as hell by a good ammount of attacks or move if he tries to switch-in, and he's not a god-like revenge killer like Genesect, either, well, actually, the same happens with Tornadus-T, but... the difference is it's ability, Regenerator, who, useless you had Stealth Rock + A Super-Effective attack against him, he'll be able to Switch-In by an almost infinite ammount of times and wreak havoc with it's 100% Hurricane on rain, or for U-Turning, or for Wall Breaking, or just for use support moves or protect with coverage it's partners. We could say the same of the others Regenerator users, but... Tornadus-T is the only one who had legendary BST, awesome speed, inmunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and doesn't had weakness to Pursuit or Dugtrio, combine it to being able to also abuse of the Rain (the most powerful weather), cover almost flawless the weaks of it's Rain Partners, and a nice moveset... and you have a monster who is able to do the job of 2-3 Pokémon in one, and better.
He'll lost at the long run, but by the moment, he did more than any other OU Pokémon.
I guess I stand corrected on my opinion- I meant to apply in general. There are always going to be a portion of players who can pull of creative teams like those with ease. But to everyone else who likes to rely on the most commonly used teams and such- it can be a hassle to deal with this weird bird.
Instead of banishing it to ubers, can't we just stop it from being alongside politoed, kind of like with kingdra? although kingdra can be walled by ferrothorn, under drizzle, it's more than capable of causing trouble. Same with tornadus. While jirachi and rotom can act as counters, under drizzle, it will always causes trouble. The one big difference, however, would be that Tornadus isn't a made into one role on a team- it takes on many roles as said already by people posting here.
Keldeo is getting less and less talked about here- I guess the cute little unicorn isn't going anywhere. *fist pump*
With that logic, you can say everything's broken if we're looking at "every aspect of its potential". That's BS. With the right support and circumstances dragonite is broken, so is salemence, and every other pokemon in the ou tier. Look at how it functions independently, and if it turns out drizzle is the issue, then that's what will be looked at next round. Stop banning things because of how it can be supported, I hate that logic. On its own is it broken? No.
One of the best checks to Tornadus-T is Scizor. It becomes a game of prediction with pursuit and bullet punch.
Agreed. I've Pursuited many-a-Tornadus-T. GG.
You're logic would make sense if we were talking about strictly one on one battles. However, nobody uses just one Pokemon in Wifi OU. A Pokemon + its surrounding factors must justify it for being deemed broken. Excadrill by itself was pretty tame, but with Sand Rush, it became a monster. Blaziken by itself wasn't completely broken because it didn't have the moveset to cover everything, but it had support to put it over the top. Same with Genesect.
Weather has bbeen a dominant force ever since the beginning of Gen V. You can't just choose to ignore it now just to keep a Pokemon in OU.
You're comparing apples to oranges. The scenario in regards to tornadus-t is different. blaziken on its own can pound through the majority of the metagame, and with support it beats everything. Same applies to exadrill. But when looking at Tornadus-t, on its own, it sucks. With support it can beat most threats(not everything), but it requires its teammates to stay alive for that to happen. If politoad dies and ninetails or tyranitar change the weather, tornadus-t is effectively neutered. Even under the perfect conditions there are pokemon that can take a hit and OHKO back.
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 270-320 (78.71 - 93.29%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 195-229 (65.21 - 76.58%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 130-153 (43.47 - 51.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Go ahead and play chicken if you want. You have a greater chance of losing than Tornadus-T does. Plus you are now locked into Pursuit, allowing the opponent to switch into a set-up sweeper.
Please explain how Excadrill destroyed most of the metagame without sand. Also, without sun support, Gliscor, Jellicent, Gyarados, and Dragonite all had a good laugh at Blaziken's expense.
That is a really good point there. Tornadus-t might as well go in a pseudo bl between ou and ubers at the rate this is going. Controversial in ou, a little weak for ubers. I still want it out because of all this commotion.
And for your information, i am a big kid lol. I am perfectly capable of outplaying and dealing with tornadus-t, so im keeping my big boy pants on and staying in the ou metagame :P
Not everyone runs standard CB Scizor despite what you believe, just saying.
You are entitled to your opinion, but what I highlighted is exactly the problem with the suspect process. You don't like Tornadus-T because it challenges you and you would rather not see it. You don't have a valid reason other than you don't like the commotion. Thats a shitty reason for it to be out of OU. I mean no disrespect to you as a user, just using you as an example here.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
Keep in mind that this suspect test is about determining if Tornadus-T and Keldeo are fit for OU, or if they are deemed too powerful for OU and should be relocated to Ubers. Whether or not they "fit in" in Ubers is irrelevant. A lot of the Pokemon that were banned from OU to Ubers don't see a ton of usage in their new home (Manaphy, Thundurus, Blaziken), but they were too powerful for the OU metagame at the time that they were suspected, so they were banned. We aren't voting on whether or not Torn-T and Keldeo are Uber, we're voting on whether or not they're OU.
+2 Hi Jump Kick after rocks OHKO's 0/0 dragonite and gyarados. Mkkay? Excadrill can OHKO pretty much anything after +2, it just has speed issues. Anyway this isn't about discussing two ubers, this is about Torandus-t. Who is largely much weaker in power level, when compared.
I'm pretty sure you're just theorymoning like crazy because this analysis is so flawed it's not even funny. Do you have any idea what happens when Tornadus-T sees a Scizor? Usually it's when it's taken a bit of damage, LO or otherwise and it's got a kill with with less than 70% life left. Basically It's never going to voluntarily stay in to take a bullet punch. Hell it's not going to want to stay in even if a pursuit is coming 100% of the time. It's either going to go down to LO or remain with like 10-15% before regen best case making it basically useless if rocks are up.
Your pursuit calculation is wrong btw... because it does more if it switches out.
Basically look. Tornadus-T comes in with rocks... 75% attacks once and gets a kill 65%. Pursuit ohko when if it switches. Bullet punch 1hko if it switches. It attacks (55% health) Pursuit does 50%. you're left with 5% and you kill scizor and die to LO. That's best case. If scizor decides to bullet punch you're dead with scizor at 100%.
Wow, you know a thread sucks when Lavos is the voice of reason.
After thinking about the suspects more, I'm really thinking neither deserve to be banned as they both have legitimate counters and checks along with the fact that neither have "amazing" coverage. Tornadus-T "outlasting" its checks and counters only go so far when Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Jirachi have semi-reliable/reliable healing options. U-Turn pokes aren't completely gamechanging and you could always predict the U-Turn as well.
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