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Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, Nov 28, 2012.
Shadow tag chandelure isn't out
55 deviation? Yeesh, and I thought the last testing was bad. Hopefully this metagame is more fun than the OHKO testing. Maybe I'll manage to get the ranking this time around.
From my experiences so far, it isn't really overpowered in its own right. I've been using a Smeargle with Minimize/Stealth Rock/SmashPass that's only had iffy results so far. Stealth Rock over Spore because it usually seems to come in rarely, and I have Darkrai for sleep. Besides, Smeargle usually comes in on something that isn't threatening (Chansey, Ferrothorn) anyway. Even when I get a +6 Minimize passed off, it doesn't really help too much. Is it helpful? Yeah, I've managed to avoid a few hits, but I always seemed to get phazed out or hit by something that killed me. Nothing gamebreaking so far.
I'm definitely gonna try and ladder, but I have an idea. HAZE Darkrai. The new poster-boy for stopping BP chains. Still, without Evasion Clause Ubers would most likely be a weaker version of Pure Hackmons.
EDIT: 100th post. Woo?!
Nah, we'd still have plenty to differentiate Ubers from Hackmons. After all, we still have the species clause, sleep clause (for now, but I'm expecting ~100% of the vote for when we test that to go for ban) and OHKO clause. I'd include the Moody clause as well, but that seems the least threatening, in my opinion.
Glicko currently is around the 1980 mark and I haven't even seen evasion anywhere. Are we playing in the same tier, everyone? xD
I don't see it being broken, but I don't think it has a place here so....
There's also Perish Song Arceus (at least for those lacking Mr. Mime, but if your running Ghost Arceus you can completely play around this), Haze Zekrom, and perhaps the most hilarious one, Heart Swap Manaphy. I haven't seen many users of Double Team or Minimize actually though, I will attest to the fact that I think stall with Perish Song might do decently in this meta though. So far I've only lost one battle against a team with this type of stall, and that was partially due to hax and partially due to the fact I let a Stall Breaker Dark Arceus set up X_X.
I'll see how offensive teams and how Heart Swap Manaphy fare later.
Pure Hackmons has stuff like Mold Breaker, No Guard, and Magic Bounce Deoxys-S 0_0. These will remain two completely different tiers regardless of the result of this clause. Ubers is much more static and balanced (yes, balanced) then hackmons whose diversity is off the charts.
So... it should not be banned, because if it's not broken, then it doesn't have any reason to be banned.
So a few days ago I played jonathanrp's modified BP team, and it was an eye opener in a good way. While I won 3 out of 4 times, I DID lose one time due to Minimize Drifblim. Now this doesn't mean I think Evasion is broken, on the contrary, I actually like the fact that it made full BP more threatening for once! Also this wasn't something you could mindlessly play, if you screwed up, even evasion couldn't save you.
Also in the 4th match, I actually DID slightly prepare for evasion by using Brick Break SD Arceus, and that did screw up his screen stuff (though remember, Drifblim CAN block that!). There is also stuff I didn't use that can stop this like Perish Song Ghost Arceus (who is damn good anyways), Haze Zekrom (several Zekrom sets don't mind giving up a move for Haze), ect. So honestly unless someone finds something really nasty as a single user of evasion or a way to make BP almost unbeatable, I think evasion may be totally fine! My opinion my change in the future since its still early, but I'm at least happy that this evasion test might not be as boring as I thought it'd be!
Anyone else getting the feeling that Minimize is broken but Double Team is not? A Minimize passing Drifblim is pretty scary when passed to something Skymin or Mewtwo. Not to mention dealing with a Minimized Garchomp in sand.
From the few matches i played against Evasion teams, Evasion isn't broken; but is unhealthy to the metagame. It makes 1/3 of your matches (the rate i encounter evasion teams) boring as you are just hoping to hit. Scizor with CB Technician boosted Aerial Ace caused many forfeits xD.
Not to mention that passing Minimizes to a Shell Smasher produces some pretty catastrophic results! I've been inducing quite a lot of rage with just this strategy. I must say, evasion is tons of fun, even if it does tend to make games overly luck-based :P
While I agree with this, I must ask; am I playing in the same tier as you? I have seen literally no evasion whatsoever, no Drifblims, no BP, hell not even Sand Veil. Am I doing this right? xD
Just got my requirements. Didn't see many people using Evasion moves and such but the times I did I only found them annoying, not broken at all, I guess it depends more about luck than anything.
so after further testing of baton passing around minimize boosts, I have to say that I don't think evasion is particularly broken at this point. Sure it might cost a match or two, but relying on evasion boosts is an extremely risky thing to do. You have the chance to score big, but you're liable to get hit and lose Drifblim, throwing your team off balance. I'm not saying that evasion is easy to get around, but if you prepare for it you should be set.
Any one else tried using a fairly standard team, then getting Drifblim to set up and baton pass mid/late game to an appropriate Pokemon? I've found good success with just passing evasion and possibly a Calm Mind and/or Sub to Sub seeding Skymin or Giratina-O, rather than setting up a long and tedious baton passing chain. This also means if Drifblim dies, its not the end of the world for your team.
So basically a set like this?
Drifblim (F) @ Flying Gem Trait: Unburden
EVs: 88 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef / 164 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Baton Pass
I don't know if that's optimal enough. The speed EVs are to outspeed Scarf Terrakion after the Unburden boost. I'm not sure if there's a faster popular scarf user than Terrakion. :o (You cannot outspeed Scarf Shaymin-S though ;-;)
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welp I hit reqs. Most of the teams I saw weren't even using evasion, so I honestly don't know where I stand on this.
I'm Asch on the ladder if you've run into me at all.
Focus Sash Manaphy sounds really funny in theory, at least anyway (I haven't ran into any BP teams to really be able to test it out yet). Usually, BP teams aren't too quick to set up Stealth Rock, so you can pretty much just let them get up to +6 in everything, send in Manaphy on the revenge, Heart Swap as they break your Sash, Rest to get back to full health and then murder the opposing team.
for clarification, does it matter when we get reqs? as long as it is before the due date? or is it when the due date occurs?
thanks all. still working on getting those reqs xD.
Just ran into a cm / double team / stored power swoobat...what the hell guys
In all seriousness though, still waiting for evasion to present a considerable threat to any of my teams. I hate the concept of evasion and I think it makes the game uncompetitive, but seeing as it has yet to negatively affect me in any way I might just decide to vote to ban the evasion clause because in ubers there's never any time to set up enough evasion boosts for it to matter. Not to mention that nothing good gets minimize.
I've ran into that team... I think Level-5 is the one that uses that?
yeah, evasion is tricky because it hasn't really effected me negatively.
Also Drifblim gets minimize, and it can survive unboosted LO rayquaza's outrage rofl
Haven't seen that one yet, but it doesn't sound too bad.
As far as evasion, idk. My first instinct is to keep it banned, but given how infrequently I've even run into it (like everyone else here, apparently), I'm not sure. The few times I did see it earlier today, it wasn't too much of an issue. I'd miss here and there, but it was always when Drifblim was at 25% or 50% from SR damage/subbing. Hit the BP recipient, then they've essentially lost two pokemon. On a team that takes further advantage of BP'ing/evasion, I'm sure it'd be more of a pain in the ass.
Time to talk about my experience with evasion so far! I've been playing friends for a while now plus I laddered for 5-6 hours yesterday and like 40 minutes today. The only evasion mon I have tested so far is Drifblim, and admittedly its a weird Drifblim set.
Drifblim @ Liechi Berry
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Atk / 8 Spd
- Baton Pass
Just a disclaimer here: I am very likely to change this EV spread. I wanted to make Drifblim pass meaty Substitutes and to be as "powerful" as possible while still outspeeding Mewtwo, but Drifblim has been so frail that Im tempted to just give it a lot more speed to outspeed AT LEAST Scarf Kyogre. Also, I will be testing out a different Drifblim set with Disable over Acrobatics, and I will be testing out more evasion Pokemon here so my opinion is NOT final!
Anyways, Drifblim has been a mixed bag... Minimize is quite a bit "safer" than Double Team, as instead of giving yourself something that's a bit better than sand veil (+1 Evasion is 25%), Minimize gives the opponent a 40% chance to miss. However... while Minimize is relatively safer than Double Team, its still been a pretty risky proposition in my experience. In fact most of the time I'm only really able to set Drifblim up with Wobbuffet support (I haven't tested it on a Baton Pass team), because like I said, Drifblim doesn't take most Uber hits very well! Also, the Thunder weakness is VERY annoying since in the rain it bypasses Evasion. And even when I get a pass... I'm not guaranteed to sweep either, because evasion can be a very fickle beast!
Now for the weird part of the Drifblim set... The reason it has Acrobatics and Liechi Berry is because of some damage calcs I did. As it turns out, +1 Acrobatics actually 2HKOs a ton of Ubers. For example, Normal Arceus takes 44.91 - 53.1%... which is really impressive considering the fact that Drifblim only has base 80 Attack! It doesn't usually sweep, but it has saved me a few times when I'm forced to Substitute till the berry activates! And of course, the Attack boost is a nice gift to stuff like Arceus and Terrakion. So overall, Drifblim has been okay... but I probably wouldn't use it much if it weren't for me exploring evasion, because even with Minimize, there is still a pretty big risk factor here.
Also, after playing a lot... I gotta say that Double Team has been fairly underwhelming so far. Like a lot of people in this thread have stated, evasion in general is actually pretty rare. When I did see it though, beyond the obvious minimize stuff, I've seen random stuff like Double Team Darkrai and Double Team Palkia. While I HAVE lost to evasion before due to bad luck... a majority of the time, what happens is that the Pokemon uses Double Team, and then they die or take a ton of damage. I don't think this is too much like the OHKO test so far because while both are luck related, OHKO had a HUGE reward for that risk. After facing and using evasion so far, I feel like the risk reward ratio is a lot more balanced here because you aren't guaranteed to take out a Pokemon if lady luck smiles upon you!
The test isn't over yet though, so my opinions could change if someone finds something more nerve wracking! But at the same time, I can't help but feel that Evasion just hasn't been as crazy as the OHKO test so far.
Um, oops >_>
Yeah, I've been using Drifblim with Unburden too, but unfortunately its sash has activated less often than I would like it to; perhaps I should tune down its Defensive EVs a bit (silly me lol).
In other news, Swoobat could do some serious damage, but really only if it comes into like a mono-attacking Arceus-Fighting/Arceus-Ground with Judgment, or a Groudon scarfed into EQ x_x
I've just about given up on evasion now haha. I just don't think the risk is worth the reward in a tier such as Ubers, where giving your opponent a turn to set up or attack you freely can be devastating.