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np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 3 - Dazed and Confused

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Does Sacred Sword bypass evasion boosts as well? Because I think that's the main thing about Moody.
  2. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    It does.

    "Sacred Sword inflicts damage, ignoring the target's Defense and evasion boosts. However, Sacred Sword does not bypass Reflect."

    From Bulbapedia.
  3. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo
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    Okay, so since I'm having a hard time carrying out this suspect due to the fact that I can only play when PS main has no more than 1500ish users and I just got haxed out of Reqs on my recent alt I'm going to share what I've noticed so far.

    Shrang explained the problem best, although I don't 100% agree with him. Moody is basically asking a third guy to come in and decide who is the winner...after you bribed him with 100 dollars. Unless that guy really hates you (his name is Hax, btw) you are just going to Sub/Protect spam to an easy and mindless victory. There's not much your opponent can do about it. With access to Taunt, Bibarel and Glalie will stop any attempts to Perish Song/Roar/Whirlwind/Haze/Heart Swap cold. Even if you did manage to successfully pull of one of these stoppers because you ran Mental Herb, or you were faster, or you won a mindgame, or the Moody player missed because of an acc drop you still haven't won the game. None of these moves actually kill the Moody mon, they just force it out (some not even that). That's without even going into the fact that a lot of these moves are rare or otherwise unviable.

    In fact, in some of the following replays my Moody mon(s) still came out on top in spite of these moves.
    Replays (open)

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13695516
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13692219
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13763288
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13763828
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13764472
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13765584
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13767345
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13768101
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13768918
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13768101
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13768918
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13769437
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13769736
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13770364
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13770831
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13772769
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13773143
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13773637
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13774687
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13783330
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13869730
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13872687
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13873671
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13874687
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13948515
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13950020
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13950213
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13950463
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13951420
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13952731
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest14060796


    and so you know what I was using
    Team (open)
    Tentacruel (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Toxic
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald

    Wobbuffet (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 28 HP / 252 Def / 228 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Mirror Coat
    - Encore
    - Safeguard
    - Counter

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Def / 248 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Toxic
    - Wish
    - Softboiled
    - Stealth Rock

    Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 64 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder
    - Water Spout

    Glalie (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Moody
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Frost Breath
    - Taunt

    Bibarel (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Moody
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Taunt
    - Protect
    - Substitute


    I'm not going to share my rating since I failed to get reqs and, like I said earlier, I lost 4/5 games at the end to bad hax. Normally the alt would be salvageable but since I decided to put up with the 6 loses caused as the result of major flaws in the original team there wasn't much more I could do. Anyways, I went on like a 30 game win streak beating some reputable players. (which is more important than losing to some randoms)


    As you can see from the massive amounts of replays, Moody isn't something that is inconsistent. It's not going to be a 50/50 coin flip or anything of the sort. Because of the fact that you boost twice and only drop once, you need some really bad hax (like triple speed drops) for things to go sour. Of course, if you pack a second Moody mon or safely switch out, you can always try and give it another shot soon later.

    The other thing is, Moody mons are self-sufficient. They don't need any support to win games (heck, I almost never setup SR). This means that you can easily slap one of these guys on your team and instantly give it a solid get-out-of-jail-free card that can swing you games with no skill required. As long as they get a free turn or a Speed boost, they can just Sub/Protect spam to victory almost regardless of the conditions. (In one game I 4HKO'd a Dialga and Giratina-O with Beaver's Waterfall...under the sun) You don't need to build a "Moody team" to win with it.

    This leads to the other thing that really convinces me Moody is broken, my team is utter garbage. I use some really bad sets like a Focus Sash Clear Body Tentacruel (forgot to add Rain Dish and never bothered to fix it) or Blissey without SToss. The members don't even have synergy with each other, they were just thrown in because they provide some useful support to deal with obscure threats or make certain match-ups autowins regardless of luck. This means that any n00by player can just slap a BeaverFace core on their team and mindlessly beat reputed battlers with far higher skill levels (I did just that in a few of my replays).

    The difference between Moody and other luck based strategies (evasion) is that Moody isn't really luck based. You aren't investing free turns that you hope will pay off in the end nor are you making an all-or-nothing bet on a 60% chance to not die that turn. You are stalling for a win to just drop into your lap. There is no risk involved, once you have that Sub/Protect spam going you are going to safely get the boosts you need to win games. Sure you can still get haxed like with anything else but it's not hax that you are relying on.



    Anyways, I'm going to give it another shot with a new alt and a new Moody mon. I've noticed talk about Smash Pass Smeargle being the best/worst Moody abuser. I personally think that if you want results out of Moody Beaver or Face are far better at abusing it than Smash Pass Smeargle since they can stay in far longer (although having Moody is like the icing on the cake for an already annoying set). However, I think that Smeargle is the best Moody abuser. With a specific set built to stall for boosts, Smeargle can play exactly like Beaver/Face except that it doesn't have to wait for it to get enough boosts to sweep with Frost Breath/Waterfall since it can pass to something with already high stats and multiple attacks. This'll mean less need for stalling involved which pushes the chances of getting haxed even lower. I'm going to slap it on one of TR's offensive teams (too lazy to build my own, although Espeon sounds sickly) and give Taunt/Substitute/Protect/Baton Pass Smeargle a shot (maybe I'll try other moves like Disable, Encore or Ingrain over Taunt). I'll post my results as soon as I get enough of them. (which may be a while due to my limits for laddering)


    For those of you who are unsure of what you will vote or are thinking of unbanning Moody I really suggest you watch my replays. I know some of you talked about not having many opportunities to play against Moody so here is your chance to see what you were lucky enough to miss out on. If you still aren't convinced just copypasta my Export and give it a run yourself.
  4. AJC

    AJC

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    ^ pretty much with the right boosts even moves that never miss can be bypassed i've had gotten enough spc.def boosts for glalie's sub to not be broken by thunder in some games and the fact evade boosts can make taunt miss means you can't rely on taunt to beat moody.

    heck one battle i faced a team of 3 prankster mons trying stop me with prankster taunt and status i still ended up beating them because they had no offensive to deal with a moody mon behind a sub with several evade and defenses boosts behind it.
  5. Emily Zhang

    Emily Zhang

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  6. Hollywood

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    Yeah, I am enjoying using Moody on the ladder, but I strongly feel like it should not be allowed. I'm not very good at Ubers (read: I suck), but I have been using Imanalt's Moody team to decent success. Of course, as has been previously stated, it will bite you in the ass on occasion; however, that doesn't mean by any means that it won't win you games.

    Here's a replay where I only used Level 1 Pineco, Smeargle, and Bibarel to clean out the opponent's entire team. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-14228005
  7. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    Made the reqs despite some bs lagg-out and technical error loses early in the run.Personally,I haven't had much trouble with Moody but only because I used my own smashpass(without moody to avoid crucial drops) team after about 15 matches and spammed +2 Aura Sphere from Dialga to an easy win and also had lead Deo-S with Taunt,Magic Coat and Skill Swap. Melee mewtwo pretty much summed up all the reasons to vote ban for Moody so I don't have much to add.Moody is almost impossible to stop unless the Moody user gets extremely unlucky or the opposing team is spamming strong moves and doesn't get unlucky with extra evasion/defensive boosts.So yeah,definitely voting ban.
  8. bro fist

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    even if i didn't see people abusing moody as much as i expected, i still don't think it should be allowed. the luck factor is just too high and once the moody pokemon gets a few evasion and defense boosts via mindless protect + sub spam, it can be impossible to stop. kind of ridiculous to see pokemon like glalie and bibarel sweeping entire teams lol
  9. AJC

    AJC

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    good moody has been so fucking annoying for me i just had a streak of battles were i lost because it kept picking defenses buffs instead of useful buffs like speed/evade/attacking stat buffs and/or multiple bad drops like atk drops on bibarel and spc.atk drops on octy.
  10. drcossack

    drcossack I'm everywhere, you ain't never there

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    Going to start laddering later, but, honestly, I'd prefer Moody stay banned. This might change when I actually do start battling, but I remember it from early on as well.

    Bibarel/Octillery/Glalie (which, at the time, wasn't released iirc) using it aren't major issues. Bring in Kyogre/Mewtwo, spam Thunder/Aura Sphere until they died. Worked well unless there were SpD Boosts, plus Toxic Spikes would kill them while they boosted. Then...Smeargle happened. Ridiculously strong Stored Power (with the ability to OHKO practically everything, including Lugia), the ability to sleep, Moody Passing, etc.

    edit: ok, ran into first moody team, which was Firecape's old one (I looked in my PO teambuilder since I planned to use it myself.) The team was slightly more annoying than I remember, and now I know why. Moody's still luck-dependent, of course, but I can see how it'd be a problem.
  11. AJC

    AJC

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    ugh the worse thing when trying to prove moody is OP is when it doesn't work and it keeps giving you worthless boost and bad drops.
  12. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Outright dismissing that Moody can horribly backfire is just as asinine.
  13. AJC

    AJC

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    it's still a utterly ridiculous ability that should have no place in competitive battling outside of nintendo events (since they hardly ban anything that isn't a glitch or a event mon.)
  14. Nova

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    Finally done with this, el boy achieved in a way el hijo and el chico could not. Used a tight HO made by soviet, shoutsout. Did not see very many Moody teams (maybe 4-6) but agree with AJC in that it is like playing Russian Roulette, just waiting for the luck of the draw. Almost had it with another alt but got beat by a Bibarel in the last battle made me lose like 30 points x.x Not sure what my opinion on Moody is yet, it seems so luck based and not too competitive but this game is all about luck so who knows
  15. AJC

    AJC

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    Forget Russian Roulette that's actually less random than moody

    at least proper Russian Roulette is 1/6 chance.

    here you are banking on something with more than 150% worse odds since you not only need to get a boost you want/need but also get a drop you can afford to have.

    if i wanted to gamble i'd go to a casino.

    yes there is a element of luck already in the game but moody brings a overkill amount of luck in the game that makes skill go out the window.
  16. MAJISTRATE

    MAJISTRATE formerly PROBLEMS

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    Achieved on the account 'Probs' I built a pretty solid Deox-A offense rain team (without a Groudon counter, goml)

    Firstly i'd just like to say BAN: This is due to Moody requiring no type of skill involved at all when it comes to gameplay its just luck of the draw, in a competitive aspect its not viable but there will be situations where it prevails through someones luck don't get me wrong 9/10 times it doesn't work but still it just pointless. I myself don't want to see this ability around because there was a few games where i was just straight up swept by 'Glaile' when it was getting fortunate boosts at the right times.. Theres really no reason for this to be around its a cancer to the meta.

    I know this isn't really a 'in depth' post with good views but theres my '2 cents'
  17. Stathakis

    Stathakis I hax people in real life
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    from a philosophical standpoint if we can implement sleep clause we can ban moody. from a practical standpoint it adds nothing good to the game. no reason to let it see the light of day.
  18. TROP

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    I will be honest, i almost never saw moody. And considering the users are not exactly that great(except smeargle that can at least spore something) and will have a hard time finding room to come in safely or guarantee set up , i don't find it ban worthy. Who cares if it is luck based as fuck? it is inferior to swagger+foul play abuse unless you get evasion boosts first.
  19. conundrumx

    conundrumx

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    Reban, unquestionably.

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  20. jackm

    jackm

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    Not even going to bother finishing laddering... it's going to get banned regardless, and this takes a fucking long time anyways. See you at the next test.
  21. peacaroo

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    I vote to keep moody banned.
  22. Melee Mewtwo

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    This is just completely false, if you want to see these Moody mons in action (since you didn't play many of them) and how even a Glalie and Bibarel can wreck an Ubers team please check out my earlier post with the 30 or so replays showing just that. Don't let the base stats fool you, even these guys can waltz past teams with enough Moody boosts. Also, Evasion is just a bonus boost. Essentially the boosts function like this:

    Speed: This is the most important stat early on. All a Moody mon needs is a doubled Speed stat early on and it doesn't even need to find a free turn. It can just immediately start Sub/Protect spamming for more boosts.

    Attack/Sp.Attack: You'll need this eventually so you can start sweeping but it isn't your biggest concern overall. Still needed to avoid PP stall, though, and outright KOing a PSong/Roar/Haze user is always better than having to Taunt it.

    Accuracy: Don't let this drop but outside of that the boosts are useless. It's nice to know you don't have to worry about missing a Taunt anytime soon when you first see it boost and it can also help the 90% acc Frost Breath for Glalie but it's pretty trivial overall.

    Def/Sp.Def/Evasion: These all serve the same purpose of eventually letting you maintain your Sub or survive attacks. You don't need them early on but you'll want to get enough eventually so you don't have to keep Sub/Protecting forever. It'll rarely happen that you need these to survive an attack but, when it does, it's nice to have.

    Getting the free turn is actually pretty easy as max Speed Moody mons can creep a lot of bulky attackers and walls. If you include teammates like Wobbufett or SubPass Gliscor you don't have to worry as much about getting that Speed boost early on.
  23. AJC

    AJC

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    yeah it's actually very easy to fish for boosts since for most of the moody mons are faster than the bulky spreads for most of the slower mons in ubers.
  24. oSeasons

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  25. Ancien Régime

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    Haven't won enough to make reqs but I've played fairly extensively and I can agree, yeah, it's horrible. I really hate using this word in reference to competitive anything, so that tells you how bad it is - Moody is flat out degenerate for competitive play. It's literally "I lose/win solely based on the RNG". The fact that I am using the word "degenerate" in a non-ironic sense shows what I think of it.

    There is absolutely no way that it should ever be unbanned.
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