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np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 3 - Dazed and Confused

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    Didnt have much luck (skills ?) to reach the reqs yet, but from what I saw, the best way to hope to not be wrecked by evasion bullshit was to play with fastmons so you dont let him too many try to get his boosts.
    Honestly, nothing surprising, we all knew what was going to happen by testing Moody. I dont think I need to explain why since Melee mewtwo and the other already did it in the previous posts.

    Probably going to try to reach the reqs before the deadline this WE.
  2. levenl00s

    levenl00s

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    Hey guys, a lurker here who doesn't post normally. But now yes, Moody is absolutely not something we want to see in ubers. I just swept a team with mono-attacking Bibarel, in the sun. My team has not been put a lot of thought in and I should just have been 6-0ed by Darkrai right off the bat. Just watch the first 10 turns of this battle, after that it's already over.

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-14456134

    This is of course an outrageous battle. But still, I disagree with the general opinion in this thread that Moody is ineffective, extremely unreliable, or just outright bad. The thing is, it IS unreliable if you play it wrong. But if you play it well and support it well, you can be sure to have success with it. Yes, occasionally you need Moody's speed boost, but most of the time you can make setting up easy with help from the aforementioned Wobbuffet and SubBP Gliscor, or whatever you want to use that can give you a free turn. Or you just come in with your Glalie/Bibarel (Octillery and Smeargle are too slow for it, haven't tested them out anyways) on their base 90 speed pokemon and just start spamming sub and protect. Taunt the Roar and Perish Song users while behind a sub (when you aren't, prediction....but most of the time, you are) and when you get to +4 everything, start knocking your opponents team over.

    Once you get a few evasion boosts and your opponent lacks a move that always hits, it's gg. Do watch out for the occasional Roar or Perish Song, but Taunt does take care of this. Even if they do have a move that always hits, it's game over most of the time, because you can outstall it or just bombard the pokemon trying to stop you with +4 attacks. Note that a lot of Thunders in ubers cannot break Glalie's sub at +3 or above SpDef.

    So guys, what I am trying to say is that Moody does require a little bit of skill (the battle was just a joke, most of them do not go like that), it is really really broken and bad for the ubers metagame, by making matches WAAAY longer than they need to be. Even if you run specific movesets/pokes to stop moody, once they get their sub up, you cannot do too much. I do not understand why people don't use Moody more on the ladder, I have not got the reqs yet (come on look at my team, too lazy to make an actual good one, maybe I'll steal Melee Mewtwo's, whose team already inspired mine) but I have won a surprisingly big amount of games against good players. Sometimes by luck, but more times just by the sheer power of Moody.
  3. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Okay back from Smeargle testing like I said I would. Except, I did lie in that for the most part I didn't use a random offense team with Smeargle slapped on. I just used the Moody team from earlier with Smeargle over Blissey because I wanted to play with Ingrain but that is a waste if Smeargle is your only Moody mon. (too easy to beat with stuff like Taunt/PSon/etc. but with other Moody mons you can pass it)

    Again, I know some of you don't see Moody much so I saved a bunch of battles so you can see what it is like.

    Similar to last time I had a 30ish win streak going on so that's twice Moody has proven to be consistent for me.


    I also playtested Espeon along with Smeargle as the Ingrain set works very nicely with her. Sadly, Espeon is almost completely useless if Smeargle hasn't passed it any boosts so betting two mons on the performance of one wasn't a fair trade for a reduced boosting time requirement. Especially since Ingrain Smeargle is really good at just stalling to infinity so it's not like Espeon was specially needed to sweep.

    Overall, I was really impressed with Ingrain Smeargle as it took a lot of prediction out of dealing with Phazers. It also helps extend the Sub/Protect spamming to the limits of your PP and the guy you pass to as well. The extra healing also helped to make comebacks with lucky protects or by just barely surviving a near fatal hit and then passing the healing to another healthy Moody mon to abuse.

    I did try a bit of just Taunt Moody Smeargle on a random offense team a bit (you may see it in those replays or it was on another alt) which worked pretty much as expected. For the most part you relied on the actual team to work for the win but if you ever found the opportunity to give Smeargle a free turn or a speed boost it was pretty much GG.

    I'm stopping for now since lag has caught up with me. I'll try a BP chain on another alt tomorrow.
    (For those of you also abusing Moody, try out Screens Memento Latios for getting that one free turn to win the game.)
    Edit: Nevermind, Baton Pass is just a horrible strategy and there's nothing Smeargle can do to help fix that. (besides giving it Moody to swing games of course)
  4. Sweep

    Sweep
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    Well, it worked beautifully against my Sun team, though I messed up from turn 1 in that game. However, as you indicated to me, the lack of resists on viable BP chain teams, in addition to Thunder messing up evasion and Roar phazing you out (unless you have used Ingrain) makes Baton Pass an extremely inconsistent strategy.

    As for Moody? I have tested it out a little and have little to say that has already been said. The third person analogy was brilliant and I agree wholeheartedly. It is extremely difficult to deal with Moody unless you use up a team slot on Haze or Perish Song, whereas Evasion is easier to deal with due to the ubiquity of Aura Sphere and, on Rain teams, Thunder. I will take a screenshot of the ladder ASAP.
  5. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    hehehe my first time ever doing suspect testing
    idk about moody yet it was non-existent on the ladder for me but that doesn't really determine if it should be banned or not
    still gonna think about it
  6. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I'd just like to point out that Articuno is the most manly bird in the Moody metagame.
  7. moonbase

    moonbase

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    Btw, I am moonbase. 23rd on the ladder.

    http://imgur.com/3tPWlaK

    Those reqs were a pain to get, but I got them. Moody as others put it, let's inexperienced players win, and it is an extremely hard combo to break. It is a strategy purely based on luck as well.I had to go to very far measures, and have taken almost every precaution to avoid getting swept by a moody user, or passed boosts from smeargle. Yet I still got swept sometimes. Moody is a broken ability.

    Moody is gonna stay locked up FOREVER.

    BTW, Most people say that they faced like 2-5 moody teams on their ladder run. I faced like fucking 20 of them, so I know first hand how stupidly broken moody is.
  8. Bossness

    Bossness

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    *insert screenshot here*

    Voting to unban Moody because: A) It will not be unbanned anyway, B) Voting for ban is too mainstream.

    EDIT: See my next post.
  9. Donkey

    Donkey

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    I really hope this is a joke since there is absolutely 0 reasoning behind your post.
  10. Bossness

    Bossness

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    I am just saying that since there are so many users who are voting to ban anyway, whether I vote to ban or unban won't really matter. That is why I am voting to unban. I don't even consider Moody to be that big of a deal... I have lost more times to Prankster + Swagger than Moody. So to be consistent, if Moody needs to be banned, then Prankster + Swagger should be banned as well.

    Don't worry about it. Moody is definitely going to stay banned after the end of this suspect test.

    EDIT: My experiences facing Moody tells me that it is not too big of a deal. I have only lost to it once and that was to a +4 Evasion Smeargle (2 Evasion boosts in the first two turns)

    EDIT2: Rhys DeAnno said it best. If Moody is broken, then it follows that you should be able to win with it consistently. I have played Moody teams on the ladder and I find it to be a very risky strategy. Those who used Moody, had a very poor win-loss record. So you are basically telling me Moody is broken because it is luck-based? If it was broken, then I would expect my opponent to win 90% of their games. My opponent's Bibarel went to -4 Attack, and even though it had +6 evasion, I was able to defeat it with Thunder. There is already a lot of random luck in the game anyway...
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Having lost more times to X than Y doesn't necessarily make X more dangerous than Y. It could very well mean that you just have strange luck, a selective memory, or played against Y less than you did against X. It's not a legitimate argument or reasoning and neither is the claim that it doesn't matter. Practically speaking your vote may very well not matter but the problem is that doing so to be "anti-mainstream" shows a lack of the maturity expected out of suspect test voters. js.

    Anyways, as for Swagger vs Moody, there are some key differences. For one, Swagger is a all or nothing bet on a Coin Flip. Even if you do win this coin flip it doesn't exactly mean you won the game or even beat the Pokemon. You have to continuously win this coin flip and spend additional free turns to inflict the status for it to go anywhere. Moody, on the other hand, has a safe 1/7 chance to screw your opponent over. Fishing for the initial speed boost doesn't risk the life of your Pokemon thanks to access to Protect. Then there's the possibility of an evasion boost followed by a miss. On top of that, if the Moody mon is naturally faster they can immediately engage in the Sub/Protect cycle. If you factor in teammates it is very easy to create a free turn situation for the Moody mon which is all it needs to engage in the Sub/Protect cycle and win the game. This has far better odds, involves far less risk and is far more controllable than gimmicks like Swagger or even Double Team/Minimize. It's a Low Risk, High Reward ability and that is what makes it inherently broken.
  12. Scaevola

    Scaevola

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    Hey, this is my first post :)
    I also made the reqs.
    http://imgur.com/mqdhui8

    Excuse me if my question is stupid, but in the first post it is written that voting will start after April 16, but I saw here that some people already declared their votes. Should I vote now or later?
  13. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Lol, it's just people expressing their opinions to generate discussion (or encourage bandwaggoning) if you want to talk about your viewpoint on Moody go ahead.
  14. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

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    I don't think it's necessarily low risk. If you protect and get a junk boost (anything but speed, though in some cases evasion or the relevant defense are acceptable), you have to either switch out and take a free hit somewhere or probably lose your poke. Also, despite how annoying it is, has anyone yet actually qualified using Moody? From what I've seen in *nonbiased* samples, Moody teams tend to have a < 50% chance of defeating most well constructed normal teams piloted by good players.

    I think the main argument left to ban Moody after this test is it is an extremely high variance strategy, but the counterargument is that the mean result over many games is suboptimal. This essentially means that Moody does not have the potential to be very disruptive to laddering in general, but has the potential to create many specific, unpleasant upsets in important games (tourneys, I suppose).

    Lots of strategies are already higher variance than others. For example I usually groan when facing annoying paralysis-spam teams precisely because the chancy nature of parahax makes upsets more likely than usual (I'm sure we've all lost the odd frustrating game to triple parahax in a row). The main thing for the voters to decide is if Moody presents an unacceptable amount of variance compared to what we already deal with. I'm personally not really sold.
  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Whether or not this is actually a problem depends on the team. If it actually has any sort of defensive backbone switching out really isn't a problem in the slightest, it's not like being in a disadvantaged matchup is something that was born from bad Moody boosts.

    And yes, quite a few people have gotten reqs already with Moody. (I've yet to do to my limited playing time on PS main, might not do it with Moody now cause I got bored of testing with it. In any case, I have two alts where the wins are far greater than the losses so I'm not sure why you keep saying it's inconsistent.)


    To be honest, "Moody teams" aren't very good at all as they completely bank on one of those multiple Moody mons getting the right boost. A real team with a defensive backbone and an ability to force switches and create free turns can really show off the power of a Moody mon. Moody mons pretty much hand you your Stall and Balanced matchups on a silver platter as there are so many slow Pokemon that'll allow you to engage in a Sub/Protect cycle. That's not to mention that most good teams don't actually use gimmicks like Haze or lesser moves like Perish Song as they'll need those slots to handle other good teams. (It's kind of obvious the sort of stuff I'm using makes it a garbage team. Sash Tentacruel? I mean come on, are do we really have to stoop that low to sweep with some NU mons?)
  16. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    basically echoing what's already being said in this thread that moody sucks, but its element of randomness can potentially turn a clean win for one side into a devastatingly lucky victory for the other. all moody really does is rely on multiple rolls of an 8-sided die to determine who wins and who loses. that's broken in itself. the very definition of moody is at direct odds with any sort of competitive environment, like the one we're striving to perfect. having moody in the ubers metagame will only increase the element of luck and decrease the element of skill in all battles where it is present. unbanning it can bring us only harm.
  17. lousy918

    lousy918

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    expected to meet reqs ytd, but got haxed horribly and my win-loss rate became 51-20 when it should have been 62-9 without hax >:(
    and it wasn't even due to moody, a bunch of gay crits and side effects
  18. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    There are a lot of democrats in the northeast so I think I'll vote republican during the next election. My vote is meaningless.
  19. TheKiller7

    TheKiller7

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    And Thats all you need. ive seeing bidoff (Not Bibarel) defeating Ferrothron after getting enough boosted, also along with Espeon and Smeargle, you cannot taunt, roar, or even hit it thanks to evasion, with a smart combination of Substitute and protect all that bidoff needs is aqua tail and return, enough to Sweep a completetly team.


    Moody will just ruin strategies, there will be no reason to make a good sinergy in your team if your oponent (specially a bad one) can have an oportunity to sweep you, maybe its based on lucky and sometimes it wont work, but when it does, you can start to pray or thinking on forfeiting.

    Im planning to get on ladder with another alt (Mr. Harrison) and vote negative, non strategy should be based on luck
  20. Scaevola

    Scaevola

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    I agree with others who posted again Moody before, but I think I can highlight something new comparing Moody with "regular hax" (they are clearly different). Assuming your opponent is not a skillfull player, a perfectly timed parahax or crit can lead to losing an important member of your team, but you can still win the game if your opponent plays badly. You still have a chance to go over the luck with your skill. But if your opponent gets lucky with Moody, then after 30 turns of Sub/Protecting will sweep you and win the game for sure. Regular hax can only put you in a disadvantaged position in itself. Moody can mean your lost in itself, as Lavos Spawn said.
  21. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Finally got my deviation down
    2020+/-55 (open)
    [​IMG]


    I used a Moody team for the entire ladder. Despite being a luck-based strategy, I found it reliable enough win me about 4/5 of my games. Even Pokemon that are well-suited to beat Moody Mons aren't reliable measures and I commonly beat them (Roar + Dragon Tail Giratina, CM Kyogre, I even saw Unaware Cosmic Power Clefable). The most reliable method I've seen for beating Moody is Perish Song Arceus, as that ignores Evasion boosts, Protect and Substitute. I'll be voting to ban Moody.

    My Moody team (open)
    Smeargle @ Leftovers
    Trait: Moody
    EVs: 252 Spd / 8 HP / 162 Def / 88 SDef
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SAtk
    - Spore
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Baton Pass

    Espeon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SAtk / 30 SDef / 30 Spd / 0 Atk
    - Stored Power
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Calm Mind
    - Baton Pass

    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute
    - Surf
    - Thunder

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Beam
    - Explosion

    Octillery @ Leftovers
    Trait: Moody
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Surf
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Thunder Wave

    Arceus @ Silk Scarf
    Trait: Multitype
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 124 Spd / 132 HP / 252 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Swords Dance
    - Shadow Claw
    - Earthquake

    Despite using Smeargle + Espeon, I found Octillery to be the better Moody user. Has enough bulk to survive most hits with EV investment, even Modest Kyogre's Thunder, and Thunder Wave is very useful for getting a Moody chain going. People often says that you can get a chain going once you get a speed boost; Thunder Wave is even better than that, letting you outspeed most things without having to allocate EVs to speed, and the free turns of paralysis really preserve your HP and Sub. And when you get the boosts, very little can stand up to +6 Surf, even with 0 SpA boosts (Latias in Sun is the only common Pokemon that can). It's because of TWave that I found Octillery better than Bibarel and Glalie; TWave is very reliable, more so than Taunt (which may end up being a waste of a move). Octillery also has better defensive typing than Glalie, and people don't seem to expect TWave. Even if Octillery faints, it at least ends up providng TWave support, where as the Taunt support disappears if Glalie/Bibarel faints. Needless to say, there are matches when Octillery doesn't pull its weight, though I find it pulls it more often than the other Moody users.

    I also found Spore better than Ingrain on Smeargle, as it helps Smeargle start the chain and potentially take out a troublesome opposing Mon. Ingrain may backfire due to not being able to switch-out and you need a free turn to be able to set-up, which may not happen. Spore is more reliable. And with Espeon as a partner, you don't need the extra recovery of Ingrain; when Smeargle gets on low HP, you should have enough boosts to Baton Pass to Espeon so it can annihilate everything. Espeon's a liability if it doesn't receive boosts though; other than Magic Mirror, it is essentially useless without boosts. You also have the option to Baton Pass to other members if need be; Extremekiller Arcues is an underappreciated Baton Pass recipient who makes great use of even one Attack boost.
  22. Haunter

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    [​IMG]

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    I made the reqs while testing teams. My opinion on Moody is that it's an horrible addition to the metagame, that often turns games into coin flips. Keep it banned.
  23. FLCL

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    at first i was laddering with a moody team, but i wasn't lucky enough so i switched to a standard team. however i still pulled a lot of bullshit wins by protect spamming for evasion boosts in situations where the opponent basically had a guaranteed win so i think moody should be banned
  24. Ezio

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    Moody sucks, thanks for team Sweep :)
  25. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Okay, changing from Chrome to Firefox has really made it easier for me to ladder as far as lag is concerned so I'll be able to get these reqs out of the way. I'm even in a Moody mood again so I'll be laddering up with just that. Anyways, I had a ladder match earlier with Faint and the battle turned into a perfect example on how a team can win just by packing a Moody mon on it. Watch this replay, it really shows off the nasty things it can do to experienced players with well built teams and superior skill level.

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-14805725

    Well I'm done for tonight, I made a lot of progress and have quite a win streak going. I'm not finished just yet but I thought I would share with you guys what I have so far.
    Inconsistent my (Lugi)ass (open)

    [​IMG]

    As a side note, I love how conveniently pink my name is.



    Also, unrelated, but I wanted to share this other replay with you guys. I really think we should give my opponent a reward for best Ubers team on the ladder. There's loads of surprise sets that will interest you guys.

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-14802263

    (I know you can't see it but the Palkia is a Telepathy Palkia)
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