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np: BW Ubers Suspect Testing Round 1 - Mama Said Knock You Out UPDATE POST #95

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, Oct 21, 2012.

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  1. ntiller

    ntiller

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    Can I just say that while Sheer Cold allows for some pretty cool sets (Mind Reader/Sheer Cold Articuno, anyone?), OHKO's shouldn't be allowed to be fired off randomly, since they're way too swingy. Would it be possible for the clause to be modified so that OHKO's are only allowed with an accuracy booster of some sort? Just my thoughts after playing around with a couple gimmicky teams.
  2. Antar

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    I belive our current ban philosophy is to keep it simple and avoid "complex bans" like what you're proposing.
  3. Jukain

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    To add to this, it bans something from Ubers, which is against the goals of the tier. Clauses, as I take it, if they are removed, will be an all-or-nothing scenario.
  4. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

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    As stated earlier in the thread, acc boosting moves besides Mind Reader/Lock-on don't effect OHKO moves. If Arty was the only one, though, it could work. Dat Tiptoeing Tectonics 4x weakness. Seriously, half health upon switch-in is not fun. And lolsmeargle. Of course, the complex ban in place might be too "unfriendly" to new players, especially considering most new players start with OU or Ubers (Charizard's usage ranking is my proof of this).

    Albeit, I'm no expert at Ubers. Haven't laddered at all. Only a few pseudo-competitive battles with my friends. It's ultimately up to the people who actually know Ubers; I'm just putting my though process out there.
  5. Antar

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    Not true. OHKO moves could be allowed in OU and below and banned in Ubers.

    If we WERE to implement a complex ban, it would be moot in OU and below where OHKO moves are still 100% banned.
  6. VaporeonIce

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    Maybe you should be playing chess instead...
  7. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    What I can say so far after playing +60 matches is:

    - # of times I've lost to "hax": 3 times. Two because of Kyurem-W got a crit using Draco Meteor on turn 1 (both times). One because Kyurem-W got a freeze on my Rock Arceus in the sand and it kept frozen for 4 consecutive turns.

    - # of times I've won because of a OHKO move landing (and actually affecting the outcome of the match): 2. One when I hit 3 in a row (lol), the other one when I OHKOed a CM Steelceus setting up on me. If you count the times I've used a OHKO all over my +60 matches I think it averages out to less than 30% imo. As dumb as it sounds, it only counts when it hits. On average, it sucks ass. I wasted all of my PP once against a Giratina-A missing all my OHKO moves (which ironically, was an argument for Sheer Cold Ogre to take on Gira-A "reliably").

    How many times have you had Jirachi flinching your Heatran/Skarmory/Vaporeon to death? I've experienced it twice (I remember them). More Ubers related, how many times have you seen Shaymin-S flinching Dialga or Skarm to death? Is that luck or strat? Is it a valid strat to spam a 60% flinching rate move? Is it banned? Last time I checked, Serene Grace is not banned from any tier. Oh wait I thought we "didn't like" luck. That's right.

    Like other user said, me using OHKO to test while laddering have left me seeing no other users using OHKO moves. At all. If it's so broken, why do top -insert a number here- are not using them?
  8. Pocket

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    Exactly, locoghoul. I have found no reason to replace Roar, Toxic, Swords Dance, etc for an OHKO move. It just makes a moveset worse.
  9. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    I'm "Aes".

    I've been laddering pretty extensively to get a feel of the metagame, and my thoughts have been shaped a little by what I've seen.

    Going into the test, I already knew stall would be affected much more than offense, so I tried to see the extent to which stall was made unviable, and how it could potentially adapt, as my first order of business.

    Ubers stall flourishes in compressing as many roles and checks into six pokemon as possible, often finding room to add secondary checks to common threats or utility pokemon as well. This means using pokemon like specially defensive giratina-a, a great kyogre check as well as durable spin blocker and utility counter to many things, and is one of sun's two useful kyogre checks, as grass arceus loses a lot of its utility if its fire weakness isn't nullified, as it no longer walls threats like palkia and dialga.

    But, even completely ignoring excadrill and the impossibilty of reliably stopping its spin while using stall, bar otherwise terrible sets like balloon gira-a, OHKO makes this extremely difficult. Kyogre in particular loses many of its few checks with the addition of a OHKO move. SpD giratina will now lose more often than it even gets to phaze kyogre out. Latias HAS to run Grass Knot or thunder to have a decent chance of checking Kyogre now, and now has even more of a limited choice of a coverage move if it desires to check both CM and OHKO variants of kyogre. Grass Arceus doesn't have to run anything unusual, but obviously still has the same 51% chance of being ko'd.

    At first I attempted to use a somewhat standard stall team, and as expected Gira-a can no longer check kyogre reliably at all, which makes sun stall significantly more difficult, as the compression I mentioned earlier is no longer possible.

    So, before I left stall I attempted to make a team that adapted to the metagame, one that gave ohko users as little of a chance to make an impact as possible while still retaining at least close to the same level of walling ability.

    I came up with a Fightceus and three attacks Latias team. Unfortunately though, even on a team like this designed to be as resistant to ohko as is reasonably possible, certain threats must still be checked, certain supporting pokemon still carried, and unfortunately at least half, and more realistically two thirds of a good stall team will allow a ohko user to switch in. And because of the nature of OHKO moves, you can't reliably switch in to take the attack. For instance, any rain stall team using the incredibly useful bulky kyogre allows sheer cold kyogre and fissure gastro (a legitimate threat) to waltz in.

    To make OHKO a small problem for a defensive team required such changes to team structure that threats that stall usually had little trouble with started to trouble me, like common offensive combo's of two physical sweepers. So in adapting to OHKO, true defensive teams make offense even more the dominant playstyle.

    I later used a rain offense team that I acheived that rating with, and found it much simpler to design a team that ignores OHKO as much as possible while putting pressure on all playstyles through niche pokemon.

    Any offensive team that carries a kyogre check can still be troubled though, as bulky ogre can be incredibly troublesome for specially offensive teams, and losing their check 30% of the time without getting any damage on it in return often stops their momentum too fully for them to recover from.

    An interesting team archetype I did see though was an offensive team, designed to have the advantage against other offensive teams, while being rain dependent and carrying sheer cold kyogre, with a few sweepers carrying similar checks to kyogre. Kyogre's ability to pressure stall teams, and even switch into usual checks like gira-a and grass knot/thunder less latias seemed to be a great support, and makes for an interesting mold for future teams seeking to abuse OHKO moves.

    I encourage you all to test defensive playstyles and the aforementioned combination of OHKO users and offense designed to beat other offense! I think how these pan out will be the biggest factors in the evolution of the metagame!
  10. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    ^ my question to you is: how many users did you battle that were testing OHKO sets? I honestly didn't find any besides me. I've played The Immortal, 1337 Champion, raserious, FU Destiny, Pocket, Gary the Gengar and Foolish Egoist just to mention a few. As far as I remember, non of them had a OHKO user. Even when I was battling them I didn't use OHKO moves all the time. Mainly because every time I could have there was a chance for another move to be better in the long run (spinning, toxic on opposing Lugia, etc.).

    EDIT: lol at your tab "how to hack online..."
  11. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    Mind reader and similar moves really aren't viable. The opponent can simply switch, rendering two turns wasted for you and allowing them more than enough time to bring something in that can threaten you enough to prevent you from taking many shots with a OHKO moves.

    Firstly, the chance of kyogre missing four sheer colds against Gira-a is .7^4, or around a 24% chance. That's a little better than the chance of WoW hitting.

    More importantly, it prevents you from being able to use gira-a as a kyogre check. You now have to either use something else, or pack an additional check, especially if you're using stall.

    Your argument against luck isn't exactly that valid either. The vast majority of the time, an unburned dialga WILL beat a skymin, unless it allows itself to be leech seeded, which would be skillful manurvering on the skymin users part.

    But a defensive team has absolutely no alternative but to switch their kyogre check into a 30% chance to be OHKOd, as they can't viably wall most threats without allowing it ample opportunity to switch in. In other words, it may be a form of luck, but this is one that the currently "dominant" playstyle of the day cannot use skill to play around reliably.

    To answer your question I played a decent amount of users, though almost all of them were just using sheer cold kyogre. I saw excadrill a few times, and was very threatened by it when using stall. But, like I've mentioned a few times, most players are, and should be, using offensive teams, as they ignore the clause to a greater extent and can worry less about stall with the clause in effect.

    I disagree in the case of certain OHKO users, namely Excadrill and Kyogre. Both can use OHKO moves to accomplish things otherwise and incredibly useful for their teams, like being able to beat every spin blocker regardless of their current health and being WoWed in excadrill's case, or kyogre beating the only check that usually phases most of the time with sheer cold, which makes it an incredible asset for teams weak to stall. In certain cases, cases where a player can create a situation in which the OHKO can be used multiple times, or the opposing player has to switch blindly into it, they can offer more utility than the options you mentioned.
  12. gookie

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    Having played the metagame for a few days now, and having tried both OHKO and offense, I am tentatively leaning towards a ban.

    While the many that argue in favour of this stress values of 'uncompetitiveness' and 'why add more luck to the game' it is best to look at a more metagame relevant picture, i.e. its actual effects. Although Syrim has covered it in some depth, I must stress that rather than citing freak cases of Sheer Cold sweeping an entire team, or Sheer Cold Kyogre failing to beat a Giratina-A, one should focus on the effects over numerous matches; citing anomalous cases as a basis for banning is no different than saying hax is a precedent for banning Jirachi.

    The effects are such that playing with/against slower defensive teams is a series of repeated dice rolls, provided one is against a team with OHKO moves; balanced teams still suffer, although admittedly to a lesser extent than stall. It is no surprise then, that my views coincide with Syrims; I have found it most viable to ladder with offense, rather than attempting to use OHKO at all. Offense aims to end the game in as little turns as possible; moreover, it aims to check things through offense and/or not being forced out - all of these factors make offense the least likely to succumb to any viable strategy revolving Sheer Cold (read: NOT Choice Scarf Kyogre with Sheer Cold).

    The reason I am leaning towards a ban is the undesirability of such a metagame, and while this is inherently subjective, is because I believe that, and the majority of players will agree with me, that reducing diversity to such an extent (ignoring all back-and-forth arguments - not using OHKO becomes the best strat, then stall and balance returns, then OHKO returns, etc.), i.e. limiting team archetypes, does not make a desirable metagame. While I cannot strictly say that such a metagame is uncompetitive, in the sense that one can adapt and choose the best hand for the game, so to speak, I can say that this metagame is simply not fun.
  13. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    I don't understand Poppy's post. He says that although -in his opinion- OHKO are not broken or uncompetitive per se, he just doesn't like the possible impact on the metagame (aka stall may take a hit). I guess it comes down to preference but I remember when Mence got banned from GenIV's OU because most of the top players in the ladder played stall and Mence was too problematic for them.

    Regardless of the outcome, I wish the newly formed council can at least make it seem like it's not a subjective decision ("I don't wanna lose against a random person because my Gira got OHKOed in one game out of eight, let's ban it so my stall teams can do ok").

    Remember how stagnant GenIV was at the end of Plat. If no one is willing to adapt to certain things (note that I don't agree on unbanning ALL clauses) there is no reason to even test stuff.
  14. Antar

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    @syrim, what's this "online" thing that you were trying to hack in your second tab? :p

    If OHKO moves *were* competitively viable, I would be in favor of NOT banning them. If Sheer Cold Kyogre was a reliable check to Sleep Talk Giratina or CM Arceus Steel, then I'd feel that there was some good that outweighed the stupid.

    But as others have pointed out, phazing is much more of an effective strategy (in the case of Sleep Talk Giratina, note that the odds of you pulling off Sheer Cold are LESS than the odds that Giratina selects Dragon Tail), so the only time OHKO moves are going to be more "viable" is when your opponent is down to their last Pokemon, in which case you're winning or losing a match on hax.
  15. IstheCakeReallyaLie

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    I think the point is that stall barely exists in some other tiers (OU, for example), and Ubers is where it flourishes, so we would want to keep it that way.
  16. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    Stall still exist and is pretty effective, the ladder isnt good enough to be so straight. As for me, I faced one time an OHKO move with a stallteam, and it costed me the game because I lost my Ogre check, anyway. Syrim resumed the whole point, by allowing such move, we're killing the defensive side of the uber's metagame (even though very few people'll have the balls to use these moves), we have to use offense or we're in deep trouble, and I dont think thats what we're aiming.
  17. shrang

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    Hm, is it me, or are the OHKO moves terribly accurate on PS? I don't know, but so far, around 75% of Fissures coming from Excadrill have hit, lol. Killing Groudon with it is so damn satisfying.
  18. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    We are currently testing, there is no reason not to post our thoughts so far, as by prompting discussion we can gain the community's experiences and perhaps be effected by point's we hadn't yet come across.

    I thought poppy made a very objective point, by admitting that while OHKO moves might not be inherently broken, by their impossibility to be switched into by pokemon that can either take a hit from the OHKO user or even stay in for more than a turn or two, they make one playstyle much better than the other they lower diversity to a large extent, and make one of the most popular playstyles in the tier not worth playing consistently.

    No one wants to ban OHKO moves because they "beat my gira-a one game out of 8", even though the odds of losing your gira-a after two sheer colds is over 50%, and I personally have not fully developed my stance.

    Your argument that the tier would become "too stagnant" seems contradictory in a sense. Currently, players make use of many, many different strategies, and they all seem similarly viable, with each possesing inherent advantages over the other. To allow the OHKO clause removed means you also remove that element of diversity, you make less appealing the defensive playstyle in general, which could easily lead to the stagnation you fear.

    Sadly, for stall to be able to beat pokemon like rest talk kyogre, they have to have an end game plan for it. Phazing repeatedly requires huge amounts of luck if Kyogre is running sheer cold, and even then you can lose if it is the last pokemon alive.

    Roar Kyogre can be prepared for. If one can phaze it repeadetly, something like Gira-a or CM latias using any moveset can be sure of a win in the end, and of course Grass Arceus can as well.

    Point in case it's not about the odds of a dragon tail hitting being superior to the odds of a sheer cold hitting, its about stall being able to maintain a win condition versus bulky OHKO users with status immunity and bulk (e.g. Excadrill, Gliscor and mainly Kyogre).
  19. polop

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    I'll respond to this. Its a huge troll x_x, its still in google search format lol, nothing serious of course.

    Speaking of hacks here's proof he didn't hack and my Reqs screenshot.
    Yes its bare minimum but Focus Blast hits a lot less often then sheer cold (open)
    [​IMG]


    I already posted my position on OHKO clause is being quite "undecided" for now. I'm still going through testing it. So far I've seen very few users of OHKO moves and of the few I've seen none were effective against my team. I will admit that I used 2 Hyper Offense teams and 1 balanced team, meaning my analysis on how it affects stall is incomplete.

    Its impact on HO and balanced teams seems minimal though. My balanced team used an offensive Latias as its Specs Ogre check and it didn't really matter if Ogre had Sheer Cold or not unless it hits turn 1, which well has a 30% chance of happening (you might as well start arguing WE NEED OGRE CHECKS THAT CAN LIVE CRITICAL SPECS SPOUTS). Needless to say Sheer Cold Kyogre and Fissure Excadrill weren't problematic at all for these two styles (I even used the Kyogre as setup once for my Dragon Dance Rayquaza !_!). You can still switch in your check to the move and eliminate the mon the turn after. Fissure and Sheer Cold's misses often provided me with a free switch, and never a dead mon.

    Additionally, I'm hesitant to say that it threatens stall's viability completely. The only teams that I saw taking advantage of these mons were enemy stall teams. The best thing they could do was spin since a giratina-a just got killed off. Really, Hyper Offense and Balance teams, lack the defensive backbone of risking a free turn IMO, which prevents them from using this deadly move. The thing is, these are the same teams the only ones that can take advantage of the death of a wall or random mon or the hole created in stall (now if someone manages to create a Hyper Offense team doing the exact contrary I commend them and would like a detailed account from them on how wrong I am and how they did it because I can't seem to keep my synergy in check when I try building a team like that x_x).

    tl;dr; Hyper Offense and Balanced teams during my tests remain in the same stance as they were before clause banning. They can't use OHKO moves due to synergy issues and the risk of providing a free turn which means losing momentum for that team but aren't affected too much by the move due to their ability to adapt to the loss of a team member or keep the momentum high enough to the point where giving a free turn is the equivalent of handing over the game. Since only stall teams can utilize this move, due to their huge defensive backbone, they can not at the same take full advantage of the gaping hole in enemy defenses due to their not-very-high offensive presence.
    EDITS / Logs (open)

    EDIT: OK I 3> OHKO moves on stall now :D, look here
    EDIT2: OK Maybe this stuff IS a bit broken now idk.
    EDIT3: Stall can afford misses, even if it never hits the entire match.
    EDIT4: OK my match with Faint (and after watching some of his matches), currently leads me to believe that these moves may be a overpowered, currently leaning towards a ban, stance may change with more testing.
  20. Lavo$

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    So I've been playing around with a RestTalk Kyogre set, and it's really destroying the metagame right now. It's a perfect fit for my team, which desperately needed a special wall and also a check to Sun, and it's a great abuser of the absent OHKO Clause. With a Zoom Lens and zero Speed investment, as long as the opponent is faster than me I've got a 50/50 chance of a straight up OHKO on anything I please. I can literally just spam Sheer Cold and take out half a team easy. It's broken as fuk if I get lucky and hit a couple.
  21. polop

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    Zoom lens doesn't boost Sheer Cold's accuracy x_x. If it did it would boost it to 33%. I recommend subbing Zoom Lens for leftovers if you are using it. I'll agree that I have had some bad luck going against that set (stares at a certain user :P).
  22. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    I see that you changed your stance a bit based on your edits, so I don't need to disagree with you about stall not being able to take advantage of holes created by OHKO moves. Stall teams can effectively make themselves weaker to opposing stall to perform better against offense, and toss on a OHKO user to help break opposing stall cores. This doesn't make them any stronger against opposing OHKO teams, and essentially makes it more of a luck based match up.

    To introduce a new discussion though, I built a team attempting to exemplify the idea I posted earlier, a very offensive team that matches up well against opposing offense, while using sheer cold kyogre to patch a number of defensive weaks and break through otherwise troublesome cores with its OHKO move.

    Here are some replays of it in action.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers3361108

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers3362053

    I also had an excellent battle versus Taylor who used stall (unfortunately the replays “hash tags do not match” who used stall, in which he couldn't really predict around OHKO through no fault of his own, and couldn't safely switch Ferrothorn, or specially defensive Gira-a into it, and lost Lugia to a sheer cold predicting a different move. I beat his last mon CroGre through sheer cold kyogre, which was really my teams only solid answer to it.

    Another great battle, and an example of how the team archetype i'm describing can match up well against offense while keeping its stall breaking ability, against the strongest 9.5 on the site, JabbaTheGriffin.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers3365379

    It attempts to use an offensive kyogre check, and avoid most of the necessity of countering by being relatively offensive, as well as giving very few switch ins to OHKO users. I’ve done well with it so far, against some notable users, and I think this type of team, one taking advantage of the defensive benefits of a OHKO user, while also utilizing its presence to break opposing stall and be able to switch into, and remove, troublesome walls (gira-a in this teams case), while using the other members to match up well against offense in general, will be a solid choice in this metagame. Stall with a OHKO user is also very viable as I've mentioned in previous posts, and as mr. lol has demonstrated.
  23. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    The Kyogre set you mention can't really beat specially defensive Gira-a, reliably switch into and counter ho-oh, as this set can if you shift the SpD evs into Def, it cannot switch into darkrai, it can't reliably beat Calm Mind Arceus forms, while retaining a way to beat ferrothorn and the majority of latias variants, a high percentage of the time if they are forced to switch in more than twice, which recovery and status curing can help ensure,to list just a few of the advantages rest talk sheer cold kyogre holds.

    You also claim that you can easily 2HKO chansey and blissey, but all the other merits of your set as you state are reliant on running thunder wave, and the two should never be run on the same set, as locking yourself into thunder wave is an incredibly bad idea.

    Thunder wave kyogre is also in no way breaking stall, has no reliable form of recovery, and generally simply has the niche of paralyzing latias, who still force you out if they are running grass knot or thunder. You might argue that you can simply switch out, and then the next time you come in have a shot at it with Ice Beam, but are having to predict Latias' set, switch to an appropriate counter, if you guessed right, and then having to get kyogre in again safely with Stealth Rock up really that much more unappealing than going for the straight 51%(much higher if they run a standard moveset) chance of a OHKO, even if it runs Grass Knot, as you can still switch out and preserve your weather setter.

    While both useful, these sets will often have very different, but viable, ways of being played.
  24. Daggerfall

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    I'm participating in this as well, but I'm going to do two things. First off, I'm making an alt for this named DaggerDrip that will consist of three members: Kyogre, Groudon, and Mewtwo. Mewtwo is there to take sleep and to test out a theory, whilst the other two are going to see just how often an OHKO move will hit, and how often people will take them seriously.

    Next, I'm going to make a real team with minor alterations on two alts called DaggerDrop and and DaggerCrawl, which would include Sheer Cold on Kyogre, to see how it'll work in a real battle, and if I'd use it at all. I'll test both an offensive and defensive team, each with at least two OHKO moves.

    Just ended half of the first session with an outcome of 19 hits out of 58 uses of an OHKO move. It's about what's expected out of the move, but I do have a specific case to report. Two, actually. I tore apart two teams with just Groudon and Kyogre using Fissure and Sheer Cold because it hit enough times in those matches. Keep in mind that Mewtwo saw absolutely no use during those battles. OHKO moves aren't broken, but it's very possible that they could tear apart teams through sheer luck.
  25. chaos 9

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    My two cents on the meta currently.

    I have been playing pretty much constantly on the ladder, and I have yet to be screwed by ohko moves. That said, I don't believe I've faced someone setting out to abuse them, so I'll of course keep testing.

    I've been running a Resttalk Kyogre on my stall team with scald/sheer cold, and it has been highly underwhelming. I think I've killed like 2 things in 25+ games in the last two days. Almost in all situations I'd rather have toxic or ice beam or even thunder wave.

    However, while writing this post, I was just haxed to HELL by this guy testing a 3 mon team of Groudon/Kyogre/Mewtwo. Groudon and Kyogre killed 5/6 of my guys with their respective OHKO moves. This makes me wonder. However, I feel that I was just unlucky. Thankfully the player was nice and quit, saying he was just in it for the testing. HE should get to vote, whoever he is.

    My thoughts.

    EDIT: Ha! He just posted right before me.
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