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np: BW Ubers Suspect Testing Round 1 - Mama Said Knock You Out UPDATE POST #95

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, Oct 21, 2012.

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  1. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
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    Woo, that was fun. I'm Little Afro

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    Used Sheer Cold Kyogre for like the first 50/60 battles but it was meh-ish. Kinda leaning towards ban but it's pretty close. Abusing the 70% chance of missing is pretty big since you really cannot afford to give free turns, especially in ubers.
  2. Nightmare

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    I think that honestly the fact that OHKO's are banned is kinda stupid in the first place. One, it's in the game. Second, they've never been breaking and in fact enhance non-Bliss/Cress stall teams (knocking out Blissey is a big plus IMO). Third, I'm not really a fan of banning things unless absolutely necessary. It's on the players to adjust to the meta: Not on the meta to adjust to the player. If something comes out so horribly broken (like no Sleep Clause Poison Heal Breloom for example, Dark Void Darkrai, or the Soul Dew Lati@s), it will be taken care of. Bans are kind of a last resort thing: If something gets really out of control, or like 70% usage like Garchomp in Gen 4 pre-Platinum or Mewtwo from R/B/Y.

    Just because something is "undesirable" doesn't mean it should be banned. Hell, I'm probably one of the few that think that the uber game should be the standard game and Glitchmons should be the usual street Pokemon game.

    Just my 2C on this.

    -James
  3. ala

    ala
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    I don't think ohko moves are broken.
  4. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Even from my modest play experience, I can say that OHKO is an undesirable element in a competitive metagame. You just press the OHKO button and you either get free kills or you don't. It was dumb playing against these moves and using them. My initial fear has been realized in the Ubers ladder - OHKO connects much too frequently, and the reward drastically outweigh the risk in using this move. Perhaps if there was a side effect such as a 34% recoil for each time you miss then there might be some competitive merit to this move. However as it stands now, it's just brainless ez kills.

    Sheer Cold Kyogre is good, but I usually prefer Roar for its consistent utility. What I felt was far more threatening was Mold Breaker Excadrill with Fissure. Excadrill doesn't really have anything better to use, and in exchange it can pretty much kill Ferrothorn, spinblockers, and Groudon on the switch. Fissure just made limiting hazards easy and even more.
  5. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    ^ I used Sub/Fissure/Rapid Spin/Toxic on 252 HP / 252 SpDef Mold Breaker Excadrill. Good for spinning sometimes. Killing Ghostceus feels so good, specially if you are burned. Most of the times I would just spin or toxic (specially if it was Lugia or Groudon) as I could come in many times and spin away if there was no spinblocker. Gira-A is still a pain because Pressure makes Fissure only a 4 PP move. And if it doesn't hit then Exca becomes useless. At many times I wish I had SD+EQ tbh. One match I OHKO 3 pokes in a row (Groudon, Ferrothorn and Ghostceus).
  6. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    This is unnacurate, each new game makes tiers shift. Evidently the formats aren't purely dependant on GF or anything like that, but to think Smogon's tiers get their legitimacy by being completly independant is delirious. I think that the opposite is true, the tier system works because it brings balance and it stays true to the spirit of the game. And arguably there is no tier closer to the game itself than Ubers, since it doesn't embrace as many bannings. Then again, this is merely an anecdotic point and not and argument that has direct bearings in our current discussion, but since it got addressed twice, I thought I would clarify.

    My claim, as you call it, was meant to target players who are tempted to vote for or against a particulary suspect by principle. As you stated yourself, everyone should choose use their experience to test if the metagame was decent enough, had enough different threats and was fun enough to play, if the threats seemed fair and balanced or if the luck factor was sent through the roof by using those moves. Whether the moves are acceptable in the format or not, should not be purely based in a context of "how good" the format currently is, but also on how the testing goes. Since the Ubers format is actually a very good one, the temptation of leaving it as it is "because it's good already", may be appealing to some. I was just asking people to judge by your experience in the ladder and not to rely too heavily in the previous format -which is bound to happen to some level anyways-.

    This goes to prove that OHKO moves bring some valid strategies that can flourish into the metagame. If it was just about the novelty value or the strategies that will phase out, the OHKO experience would be pointless to unban, but when good strategies settle they actually cause important and meaningful metagame shifts it's worth exploring and not purely and argument about hax.

    Since you've played against those threats I feel like asking you directly: are those spinners too broken for Ubers?

    Did I claim Stall was dominant? If I did it, I'll gladly drop that point.

    This argument seems to be making the claim that since Ubers has an static pool of pokes, it should benefit from a different set of considerations when it comes to the banning and unbanning process. I'm just advocating for applying the standard Smogon criteria to rule this potential unbanning.

    Some people seem to think that the clause unbanning is an special kind of unbanning and should be threated differently somehow. This touches to the principle logic I refuse to endulge when it comes to this discussion. I don't think you're really claming that though.

    I think that your argument is that the unbanning would make the metagame less "healthy", that it will have a negative impact in the meta. As far as I know, there is some tolerance to these "unhealthy" moves, is the new format still healthy enough to warrant nice interactions? Does the unbanning bring new and relevant threats into the mix? If the move was unhealthy and added nothing to the game it shouldn't be done at all, but by your own admission, lifting the clause actually brings relevant threats into the meta, so this is not a point easily dismissed.
  7. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    Firstly, your partial quotes leave out the majority of my argument. My point about our tiers being independent was in direct reference to VGC being the only directly endorsed metagame. We make up arbitrary rules, tiers and clause. Even if a newly released game shifts these rules, they are still entirely designed and applied by smogon players. Nintendo does not release bullet punch scizor to make it viable for OU play on smogon, as they only endorse one competitive aspect of the video games.


    I don't see how this is applicable at all, since you are stating that players should decide for themselves, which is exactly what this incredibly broad suspect testing process is intended to do, and has done so far. People posting their opinions, based on actual testing and first hand experience, gives them the right to say "'howgood'" a strategy, pokemon, or move is in ubers.



    Since you've essentially reversed the positon you took in your first post, that OHKO moves would die out because of metagame shifts and admitted that a good strategy's existence can alter the metagame there's not too much to say. The intelligent use of OHKO moves results in OHKOs that are actually statistically likely versus defensive and balanced teams, so it has never been "and not purely and argument about hax".

    If you refer the the "Portrait of an Uber" post by Jumpman16:jump:, you'll realize that excadrill fits the bill, going by standard ou banning procedure as you later state you want, in more ways than one. It beats a significant portion of its counters with little effort, cannot be predicted against safely, and makes it much easier for teammates to win by removing the hazards that let some uber pokemon be checked.



    Once again you've essentially agreed with me. The diversity I harped on in my post you quoted certain parts of means on its own that no one style is dominant, that they are all viable and capable of winning consistently at the highest level of play. The fact that OHKO removes this is not simply an indicator that we want things to remain the same, as you seem to be convinced, but is the best show of these moves potential power, and the metagame results that come as a result of the threat this power allows them to pose.


    We have applied the same exact criteria, as I mentioned above, for suspect testing as the other tiers do. Once again, you've both misconstrued and yet agreed with my original point. Through testing and actual experience, many users have realized that relying on defensively oriented switch ins, or even carrying pokemon that let OHKO users set up, is a mistake in this metagame. So, the pool of viable pokemon, and the playstyles these pokemon enable, is reduced. If you consider that the only viable ohko user who doesn't already see significant play is Lapras, as gliscor, kyogre, excadrill, and even gastrodon see use, then the admission of these moves into ubers objectively lowers the potential diversity for a player aiming to beat all team types consistently.
  8. Bent1ey

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    First of all, excuse me from cutting up your post, but for space proposes and the fact this discussion is already occupying a good chunk of this thread I rather just address a certain number of points that I think deserve consideration rather than extending myself over everything.

    The truth is, your stance is entirely reasonable so I don't see the point of disagreeing with you. I do believe that you can reach an entirely different conclusion from the same data, without really betraying the spirit of the unbannings. It wasn't my intention from the beginning but since you've come to illustrate the opposite point, I think the discussion was all the more valuable to anyone who cared to read it.

    Anyways, I want to focus just in a few points of what you said, since it sums up everything pretty well.

    Excadrill is literaly the counter of a counter of a counter. If you feel that it's ability to defeat the conventional spin-blockers actually means it has no counters and thus is overpowered/unfair, then voting to ban OHKOs because Excadrill -or others- is reasonable.


    I'd argue that there is no reason for every style to be viable and capable of winning, just by looking at the other formats you can tell this has no bearings on the Suspect votings.


    The fact that Gliscor, Excadrill and Gastrodon see some play suddenly rules out the possibility of them adding diversity by gaining a significant importance in the metagame? I'm not sure that's exactly how that works. If these pokemon are a bigger influence in the meta new counters could be added from the lower tiers, since their BST isn't all that high. There are many things that objectively lower the potential diversity of the game, one of them is simply having more powerful pokemon in a single format, the weaker ones are hurt by extension.

    I suppose that using niche answers to certain threats could be seen as an indicator of a problem, but since we're introducing a new kind of offense, it's kind of expected to produce a new kind of answer. Because as I stated already, we want the OHKO moves to matter.
  9. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    I don't recommend continuing this argument when you clearly have not had any practical experience with the tier. Moreover, Excadrill isn't counterless per se, but it is impossible to stop spinning with anything close to a semblance of reliability; Skarmory can still wall it, but it can spin, which is defensive Excadrill's primary purpose.

    It's not a matter of using new Pokemon to counter these threats (I don't think such Pokemon exist in lower tiers, but that's beside the point), it's that bringing OHKO moves invalidates a playstyle, and objectively secures another as the best one; stall suffers, offense becomes the best.

    This just brings us back to the point many have raised throughout the thread - do we go for a metagame wherein we attempt to unban anything that is 'not broken'? Or a metagame which we find to be enjoyable and diverse (without modifying it too heavily, as we are metagaming, not creating a new game). You will find that a lot of people enjoy the current diversity of Ubers so making it into such a narrow tier might not be the best of ideas, regardless of how philosphically sound it is.

    edit: @ below, as I said - You will find that a lot of people enjoy the current diversity of Ubers so making it into such a narrow tier might not be the best of ideas, regardless of how philosphically sound it is.

    It might be nonsensical by principle and philosophy, but that does not mean it's something to just let through. Why ruin a metagame based on its initial criterion of being a 'banlist' for the sake of preserving an outdated philosophy? It might be no different to metagame defining Pokemon (although it is in that they don't invalidate playstyles) but the point is that allowing anything and everything will turn Ubers into a chaotic tier; again - Do we go for a metagame wherein we attempt to unban anything that is 'not broken'? Or a metagame which we find to be enjoyable and diverse?

    In this case, I'm for the latter.
  10. Ghostbone

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    Tbh I find the whole argument of OHKO moves limiting playstyles in ubers to be nonsensical.
    Ubers is a tier where there isn't supposed to be any balancing occuring, and many of the pokemon themselves limit playstyles/viable options. (that's why they're banned from OU, though I will admit OU itself is a clusterfuck atm and ubers probably has more variety).
    If OHKO moves limit the metagame than so be it, ubers should never be against metagame defining forces by principle. If sub/fissure excadrill forces Giratina to run an air balloon to spin block (though to be fair giratina already loses to subSD exca), I don't see how that's much different from Kyogre basically forcing any offensive team to run Palkia/Latias.
    OHKO moves might limit variety, but so do many other strategies and pokemon in ubers, I don't really see the difference there.

    Other arguments are still valid, this one just stands out to me as not making any sense.
  11. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin
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    Wasn't the ladder screen supposed to be taken a few hours ago?...

    [​IMG]

    called me superman and I think OHKO moves are somewhat dumb. :)
  12. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
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    I actually took a screenshot of the top 100 just before midnight last night. We are just deciding whether we need to change the reqs or the deadline because of the hurricane.
  13. Nightmare

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    Out of hand generally means it's generally stupidly hard to deal with. For example, Dark Void in Double Battles (much as I hate to say it as it's one of my faves yes it's broken), the 70% usage on Garchomp in B/W, Soul Dew Lati@s, No Sleep Clause Poison Heal Breloom, things like that. I don't think the first reaction is "it should be banned" because something is undesirable or even a slight bit OP (like example, Drizzle and Swift Swim. I don't know who came up with that idea, but I've always found it managable). I think if you're going to ban something, it is a last resort and has to be clearly, overwhelmingly overpowered or something's wrong.

    I know OHKO's aren't the most desirable things around, but hey, it takes Pokemon like Lapras and Walrein and gets them out of NU. Also, aren't there a few complaints about stall being generally nonviable lately? When you artificially ban things these kinds of situations occur.

    Might be getting a bit off topic here, but let's take the most broken of all games in terms of usage and strategies: Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Does it mean the rest of the characters are unusable: No, I've found a way to win using lesser known characters (yes, it takes work, and I may not be able to beat Justin Wong, lol). But it is possible because something is unexplored or untapped in potential. I think it's the same difference here.

    Just my 2C.

    -James
  14. TROP

    TROP *tips fedora*
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    Reqs screenshot (open)
    [​IMG]

    As you can see I'm duty calls. I rarely played against OHKO moves, but I still believe they bring nothing positive to the meta and make something already amazing like Kyogre harder to stop if luck is on your side.

    I got them yesterday at like 6 pm gmt-6, just took my screenshot today because I didn't see the alt id thread.
  15. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    Make it 1950, I wasnt able to make it in time because of the hurricane [​IMG]

    Ps : im lieutenant biceps ! Played poppy and cie a lot of times huehuehue
  16. Ojama

    Ojama May your scattered remains entertain me
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  17. tehy

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    But that's the problem. What IS stupidly out of hand? Darkrai has many great checks and even semi-counters, like restalk Cmogre, or restalk hera, or hydration manaphy in rain. You mention breloom? Xatu hard counters it and still can play a valuable role, even in ubers. Sigilyph can do the same in lower tiers, and anyhow in ubers things are generally faster than loom and more likely to be able to OHKO it. Breloom can even be setup bait, in the form of Lum SubDD intimidate mence-i've never seen it used, but you can bet your ass it would be if sleep clause were gone and loom was really good. Bottom line is, the metagame can adjust to just about anything, including no sleep clause spore/dark void users. And i don't think walrein and lapras will ever be out of NU-stallrein works because it can take a single hit from most OU threats and sub, but ubers have higher attack stats and stronger moves, so that might not even be viable. And as interesting as hydra rest sheer cold lapras is, it's not that hard of a strategy to beat-it's like manaphy in the weather dependence, but without the ability to sweep a team quite so hard. Logically speaking, sleep is arguably LESS out of hand than ohko's. It's got several abilities, a move, and two items that block it. OHKO moves have one ability. OHKO abilities are less threatening, but sleep is much easier to play around. The only way to block OHKO moves is with sturdy, which basically means you switch a steel with 70/70 or 70/60 Special defenses into a pokemon with 150 Spatk that is, at the very least, running an attack with 180 power that has a 30% chance to burn.
  18. Great Sage

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    In view of various difficulties that have cropped up for various reasons, we are adopting a uniform policy to special applications this round. In order to apply for special permission to vote, you must have met the deviation requirement or have at least 100 rated battles. In your application, you will note your Glicko2 rating, and you will submit answers to this examination. There are 200 points available; each point you earn converts to a point on your Glicko2 rating. If the combined score is at least 2000, you will earn voting privileges.

    This is due at 11:59:59 EST on Friday, November 9. You may consult textbooks or non-social websites. You may not discuss the questions or answers with anyone else. If we find that you have cheated, you will be permanently banned from all Smogon venues.

    EDIT: There was a rather significant typo in question 4; it was supposed to be "superior", not "inferior". Thankfully, question 4 is also trivial, so it shouldn't be too big of a bother. Sorry for any confusion!
  19. Heist

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    LOL u have got to be joking
  20. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    not sure if serious... :o

    EDIT: I guess this is a more objective special app than what we usually have rofl
  21. Jukain

    Jukain fuck macle
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    echoing the sentiments of the two posters above me, this is really strange
  22. Aqualouis

    Aqualouis ^ according to Reymedy, he drew a Groudon
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    The hell is that ?
    Sorry to ask, it's probably stupid but if I already got a glicko2 rating of 2000+ with a deviation of 55, am i supposed to answer that ?
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    No, this is a special app, so I assume it's for those who haven't met the reqs on time. This test will provide them the extra credits to bump their glicko rating. Creative indeed!
  24. Fiction.

    Fiction.

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  25. LUST

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    Just saying, Great Sage isn't even kidding to the slightest.

    @Aqualoius: Probably not, since that's only for the special applications.

    On the another note, I'm fissure.
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