Metagame np: DOU Stage 2 - Mama Said Knock You Out | Kangaskhanite is Banned | Swagger is Banned

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kamikaze

The King Of Games
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Doubles Magician
#1

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
Rockin my peers and puttin suckas in fear
Makin the tears rain down like a MON-soon
Listen to the bass go BOOM
Explosion, overpowerin
Over the competition, I'm towerin
Wreckin shop, when I drop these lyrics that'll make you call the cops
Don't you dare stare, you betta move
Don't ever compare
Me to the rest that'll all get sliced and diced
Competition's payin the price
I'm gonna knock you out (HUUUH!!!)
Mama said knock you out (HUUUH!!!)
Welcome to the second Suspect Test of SM Doubles OU! After maintaining its position as a staple mega in the Doubles OU Metagame over the past 3.5 years, its time for the 3rd ever Mega Kangaskhan suspect. Kangaskhan has always made use of its high natural bulk, ability to flinch with Fake Out, and its ability to setup and tear apart teams thanks to Power Up Punch in the prior generation. Ultimately it wasnt banned on the prior two suspects in Generation 6, but it was still considering strong by Gamefreak so in generation 7 it suffered nerfs to its overall damage output via its ability Parental Bond. Thus players moved away from Power Up Punch and instead Seismic Toss became the standard damaging move on Kangaskhan. Seismic Toss enabled Kangaskhan to 2HKO almost the entire metagame and heavily punish switchins and because Seismic Toss does not rely on attack investment players could then invest more in bulk to enable Kangaskhan to stick around longer. Wish also became a popular option on Kangaskhan to further extend its survivability. We are here to evaluate whether Mega Kangaskhan's new tools and place in the current metagame push it over the edge this time in Generation 7.

As usual, the only requirements to vote for the suspect are the ladder points required further below on the post. There are NO posting requirements; still, we advise everyone to actually read the arguments others present for and against Kangaskhan's overbearing metagame presence (or lack thereof) and still attempt to participate in discussion on this thread. A sheer volume of people saying one thing or another will change nobody's opinion so make sure you're actually doing something to make people think.

Important Info!: The ladder will only be open for eight days. Yes, you read that right! The suspect ladder will now only be open for four days at the end of the week only and there will be two laddering periods. This will hopefully concentrate competitive players into a tighter time period as they now can't play games on early weekdays against less (high level) competition, alleviating concerns about the competitiveness of the suspect ladder.​

Ladder Period 1
Start: Friday 3/30 12:01am (GMT -4)
End: Tuesday 4/3 12:01am (GMT -4)

Ladder Period 2
Start: Thursday 4/6 12:01am (GMT -4)
End: Monday 4/10 12:01am (GMT -4)

Note: The ladder rankings from the first laddering period will carry over to the second. The suspect ladder will only be up at those listed times (Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun) and will be taken down between sessions. The vote will commence after Ladder Period 2.
Kangaskhanite will be allowed on the suspect ladder.
The B value for this suspect is 14.5. One will need to achieve a COIL of 2600 to qualify. In addition, one will also be required to have a minimum of 77 GXE with a game limit of 60 maximum.
N=14.5/log2(40*GXE/2600)

Remember to keep an open mind in this suspect! Please respect the opinions of others; remember, just because you believe in your side doesn't mean the other is wrong!

Have fun :heart:
 
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#2
ALRIGHT let's talk Kang. I may be just a lowly, slightly inebriated man, but even i can see the problems that kang creates in the current meta. With the current popularity of fairy types / lando / zap, hardly any fighting types are viable enough to keep kang in check, and there's only really Gar and Aegi as ghost types to switch into stoss. It is incredibly centralizing, as every team must either carry multiple coverage fighting moves or their own faster kang to really deal with it well. I do not really have a preference as to whether it should stay or not, but I think that it does make it hard to not run kang builds considering their consistency and strengths. Does that make it overpowered / unhealthy / over centralizing? I'm honestly not sure in my current state, but there are certainly cases for all three.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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#5
Kang is insanely good see: SPL record

Ultimately the question comes down to: are we ok playing a meta where any non-kanga teambuild is inferior to kanga bulky offense, except maybe for anti meta gengar techs?

Centralization is not inherently bad for a metagame. It might make it more boring but it also means that player skill matters more, as team building variety matters less.
 

Mizuhime

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#6
First and foremost I believe this suspect came a little early, we only just banned Jirachi and have no idea how meta will stabilize.

As for my thoughts on Mega Kanga i'll begin with that I think the current metagame makes Kanga succeed more than Kanga makes Kanga succeed. To explain this further, the current "trend" is the bulky teams with Zapdos Fini and so on. These types of teams have very little to deal with Kanga and essentially just fold vs it. Kanga has become bulkier since the last generation (not via base stats but via the sets people are running) and has stopped relying on setting up to get kills. Instead they now bypass the use of regular attacks and just spam Stoss, forgoing the risk of intimidate (every still uses landorus in this tier) to stop it. Another reason I believe that Kanga has found more success than in the past is that there is an obvious lack of Fighting-types and to an extent Hyper Offence Teams in the current meta. The rise of the Tapus have halted the many Fighting-types that use to run wild in ORAS making it more difficult to just pack a single mon and be able to check Kanga. However, I still believe that Fighting-Types like Haryiama and Terrakion have palces in the meta, in and out of Trick Room respectively, people just don't use them. What I believe this boils down to is the trend of passive teams that rely more on bulk than on ability to kill things, if you have no way to kill Kanga without setting up, it's going to Stoss your entire team.

Another thing I think, keep in mind this point is only a thought of mine and i've done no research to back it up so don't take it 100% to heart, is that Kanga is broken in lower levels of play, but not as much in higher levels. SPL win percentage says otherwise, I know. I think that your typical ladder player is always going to struggle against Kanga creating an outcry of people wanting to ban it. I think in high level games Kanga isn't going to be as "broken" as it seems on ladder. When I have more time i'd like to go through SPL replays and truly analyze teams + the games Kanga has won to see how much of an impact it did or didn't have on the win, or if it was facing a team similar to the one i've mentioned earlier in my post.

In general, i've never thought of Kanga to be broken, just really good. It is easy to see why people would want it banned however and I do agree for the first time that a Kanga suspect might actually be warranted, however I do think that it was too quick after the previous suspect and I believe that something like Zyguarde could have been tested before. I look forward to laddering, seeing other peoples opinions on the matter and submitting my vote for this test however and I think the results might actually surprise some people.
 

miltankmilk

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#7
While I agree to an extent with mizu that the current meta is incredibly good for Kanga, I don't think this is merely a passing trend but the general direction of SM. To me kanga is so good because its very difficult to both defensively and offensively check Kanga this gen. In oras you could intimdate shuffle it; eventually chip it down with helmet, u-turn, whatever your faster mon was or you could run a fast fighter to scare it out or KO it.

In SM kanga's a new beast where its not easily worn down thanks to the rise of wish kang, offensively its harder to check because nothing actually one shots it so you're having to spend 1-3 pokemon killing kanga, or maybe you just don't kill kang and it just survives 17 turns without switching. Maybe the meta could adapt to having better offensive checks, which is so hard because you're either using like deo in psychic terrain or LO terrak if you want to OHKO it, but the meta is incredibly unwelcoming to fighting types with the popularity of fini, lele and koko. Shockingly enough these tapus can pair well with kang, as can anything because you lose very little by running it, and can eliminate most threats to kang.

As for the meta adapting to defensively check kang, I don't see tha happening unless people start running blissey, toxic or something else that somehow 1v1s kang without being deadweight. Kanga runs through just about every tram composition, honestly even gengar teams struggle with kang, and even going to extreme lengths to check it is far from foolproof. For these reasons I think it is necessary to Ban Mega kangaskhan
 
#8
Another thing I think, keep in mind this point is only a thought of mine and i've done no research to back it up so don't take it 100% to heart, is that Kanga is broken in lower levels of play, but not as much in higher levels. SPL win percentage says otherwise, I know. I think that your typical ladder player is always going to struggle against Kanga creating an outcry of people wanting to ban it. I think in high level games Kanga isn't going to be as "broken" as it seems on ladder. When I have more time i'd like to go through SPL replays and truly analyze teams + the games Kanga has won to see how much of an impact it did or didn't have on the win, or if it was facing a team similar to the one i've mentioned earlier in my post.
You were right when you said spl winrate says otherwise. It's consistency speaks for itself that even when people build with kanga in mind it still does absurd amounts of work due to bulk/power. You also have to agree that at a higher level players are aware of the impact of kang and build for it in mind whereas a ladder player may still assume that landorus is still enough to check it. Even then only think that really directly checks kang is like ghosts (which aren't that good of a check since most don't really threaten spdef kang and it just attacks your partner) and strong fighting moves. Even with this in mind building for Kanga is still very difficult as you have to accept that the kang player has its own team to support kang to and can adequately prep for these threats. Regardless forgive me if I'm wrong but it seems you're trying to discredit those who think kang is broken as 'low level players' which I don't think is fair. I've seen a lot of spl caliber player speak out about kang after using it/facing it in a game in either spl or other high end tours like last rounds of ssnls. Again if that wasn't your intention i apologize but the portion of the community that have made comments about kang and the possibility of it being broken are so vast at this point it's hard to discredit them as 'low level players'.

On a side note ill be voting ban for obvious reasons. It's sheer bulk, fairly consistent typing and ability to 2hk0 most of the meta combined with fake out and semi reliable recovery is insanely difficult to counterplay. Kang severely hurts the viability of a lot of bulky offense oriented teams that don't include kang that don't have a constant stream of threats that can threaten kang. Switching in on kang is almost impossible and things that used to check it, such as landorus, just get chunked and won't even be able to ko it back due to the nature of running absurd bulk on stoss kang now. Best way to deal with kang before it tears apart your tean is double targeting it, which can lead the kang player using this pressure to aid a set up sweeper, such as cm fini or zygarde, and let it set up. The pressure it exerts every game is tremendous, and usually is used to put the kang player in the advantage
 
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Mizuhime

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#9
This is from phone so it will be short, my intention wasn't to say those who think Kang is broken are bad players. From running this tier I known that Kanga is a larger problem on ladder than it is in tournaments. Despite my stance of thinking it's not inherently broken, I do recognize that it's likely worthy of a suspect test and as players we have to remember that its not only the tournament games were catering out decision to be also to the ladder players. To reiterate my original post I think higher level players know how to play against a Kanga better than your typical ladder plater, I have no proof of this as I haven't done "research" yet but I do want to look into Kangas games in SPL to see why it's win percent is that high, not having watched every game and not remembering all the minor details. So sorry if my post came off as bashing the typical ladder player, my intention wasn't that.
 
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#10
On my phone rn so I'll just cut straight to my stance: ban kang

Kang takes a lot of skill out of the meta imo. Its only weakness is to fighting (and there are virtually zero viable fighting type mons in this meta), meanwhile Kang 2hkos the vast majority of the meta with no regard to type matchups or defensive walls (eg celesteela). Literally nothing resists Kangs coverage since you can run Crunch for ghost types, so you can pretty much just forget the type chart exists while using this mon.

Most other Megas, while immensely powerful, still need to play around unfavourable matchups just like any other mon. In that sense, using other megas requires a degree of skill both in team building and in positioning them during a battle.

I'm pretty sure the reason Kangs spl winrate is so high is because, statstically, there is a very low probability it will encounter an unfavourable matchup at any point in a game, regardless of the archetype the opponent is using. Once wittled down a bit, it needs speed control to beat a few of the faster wallbreakers like Lando and Koko, but that's about it.

I have close to zero motivation to build around other megas rn because I know Kang will objectively win me more games.

...with all that said though, I do agree with Mizu that the SPL winrates need to be studied more critically. Teams with Kang winning =\= Kang winning games for the team. P sure Kang is a big factor, but having the objective data is important imo.
 
#11
this is so frustrating bcos i like kang so much and i feel like it has often a positive effect on the metagame with just how many teams you can build around it (omg its the only good trick room mega!) and how it checks playstyles like rain or mence offense and if there were any good arguments against banning it i would probably try to lean that way. unfortunately theres none. just look at the spl winrate (especially against non-gengar teams, i dont think it has lost once). kang has no good (viable and consitant in checking it) checks while it checks everything. i think we have reached a point when when youre using a diffrent mega evolution you instantly set yourself at a disadvantage. hopefully ill get to play more kangaskhans on the suspect ladder and maybe that will change my perspective on things, but as it stands now i will be voting ban.
 
#12
I guess I should post my thoughts in here as well. Personalky I've always viewed Mega Kangaskhan to be an overwhelming force of nature since its conception. Still being relatively new back in the very late XY/early ORAS meta where I truly got my start in DOU, I've always thought and wondered how it had never been up for debate and how it was allowed to stay around. Being more educated now, I see that though Kang was in fact a freak of nature, ORAS' metagame had plenty of things that were able to keep Kangaskhan in check. The prevelanc of high Intimidate spam from Landorus-Therian, Salamence, and Scrafty, the presence of Keldeo and Terrakion, to a lesser extent Hariyama, Infernape, and Blaziken, and the likes of Helmet Ferrothorn. Mega Gengar, Aegislash, and Jellicent also gave Kangaskhan a tough time die to not being immune to PuP, Fake Out (without Scrappy), and immunity to being mowed down by Frustration/Double Edge.

We move on to SuMo DOU and things take a pretty drastic turn. Receiving a nerf to Parental Bond, Kang's raw power has taken a pretty sizeable drop, to the point where running purely offensive PuP setup builds would cause it to struggle. And with the ban on Salamencite being lifted, Intimidate spam became even more of a factor alongside Lamdorus-Therian. However, due to this, the Wish/Toss set that was decently outclassed by its PuP set has risen to huge usage, and foregoing its need to fear Intimidate, Kang has found new ways to abuse its Piss-broken ability. Being able to easily 2HKO just about every mon in the game, and if not just easily put said mon in range og a blow from its partner. Wish maintains its vitality to keep doing what it does best.

Another thing that buffers Kang this generation is of course, the rise of the 4 Island guardians. These 4, specifically Tapu Koko, Fini, and Lele, have pretty much all but eliminated the super heavy Fighting types that kept Kangaskhan on her leash in ORAS. Terrakion, Hariyama, and Scrafty are seen every once in a blue Lunala, I don't see their presence being enough to really put Kangaskhan in her place, especially since running her alongside one of the Tapu is an almost guaranteed security blanket for her.

I must also go off of what Ms. Mizuhime stated in that the metagame has heavily strayed away from hard offense. Aside from myself being the outlier that I am ( ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ), I never see any teams both on ladder, in room tours, or in high caliber tours running super hard offense aside from maybe some Tapu Lele/Deoxys/ Mega Metagross/Salamence things. Most teams now are running Tapu Fini + Zapdos + Zygarde + other fat stuff that really barely puts any sort of real pressure on Kangaskhan. The meta getti g this fat and passive has just let Kangaskhan have a feild day chunking everything in her path. Twice.

As for wether or not I see her as broken, Im honestly not 100% sure just yet. I feel if hard offense made a return, and teams could adequately pressure Kangaskhan to the point where it couldn't just mindlessly spam her Dank Throws, I feel she'll find a staying place in today's metagame. And if Fighters could find some sort of grace in this Tapu-Centralized metagame, she'll also have one more threat hovering over her head. But at the moment, I do believe Kangaskhanite is definitely just a BIT too much for this current metagame to adequately handle. Maybe if she does get banned here, she can be retested several months down the road. But for now, I'm leaning hard towards BAN BIG MOMMA unless the suspect ladder shows me otherwise. ^_^
 

finally

how can you swallow so much sleep
#13
This suspect came too early after the jirachi suspect. It was rushed because people kept clamoring for a kang suspect without properly adapting to kang.

"You can't switch anything into kang"
This is correct, but not being able to switch against something dosen't make it broken. There are plenty of strong pokemon that you can't switch in on (kyurem-b, hoopa). What you should do when you see a kang on the field is 1) you use your attackers to attack it instead of switching 2) let your passive pokemon die. What kang does is punish bulky balance and people like to use tapu fini zapdos balance teams and because kang punishes their team they want to ban kang. People do not understand that running kang = you get rewarded against bulky balance and kill their passive pokemon. There are metagame adaptions to help beat kang: mega gengar, specs deo-a, pheromosa, hammer arm mega metagross. People are so adverse to running hyper offense instead of bulky balance that they call for a ban when something beats bulky balance. And before people say "kang is overbearing because it forces you to run bad pokemon/sets"- that is what metagame adaption is. You're adapting to a relevant force in the metagame. A set is not bad if it accomplishes it's goal: in this case beating kang. Instead of adapting, people want to ban kang.
Look at the spl semi-finals matches: two people brought kang and their opponents brought two mega gengars. And the mega gengars won both matches. This is what is supposed to happen when a pokemon is strong: people adapt.

edited out the citation part about 100% and 72%.

If you look at something like landorus-t, it is on many teams. You may wonder why isn't landorus-t banned yet? You may say landorus-t isn't banned because it isn't broken. That is a subjective statement; to an outsider they could easily say landorus-t is broken because it is on so many teams and there is very low opportunity cost to running it just like kang.
What landorus-t and kang have in common are that they are centralizing. Centralization is not a bad thing. It means something is good, and thus people will naturally gravitate to it. To counteract this people have to prepare for both pokemon: for landorus-t you bring flying types and ground resists, you have pokemon not affected by intimidate, you have hp ice. For kang, you bring ghost types, have pokemon >100 base hp, 50% pinch berries like iapapapa stop kang, and you can also bring a fighting type.

Kangaskhan has no resists. People say this is irrelevant because it is bulky enough to tank hits anyways. The point I'm making is that because it has no resists, you're goal is to hit it with enough neutral attacks (instead of switching to get a super effective hit) which will kill it.

edit: had another thought
people say that nothing resists seismic toss. the way you "resist" seismic toss is by adding 50% pinch berries to your pokemon and this means that you have a lot more pokemon as viable kang checks as opposed to only certain pokemon be checks (like steels and fightings were last gen to kang). the berry effectively turns kang's seismic toss into a 3hko. now think about that: if kang is 3hkoing your pokemon, that actually gives you a decent amount of space and turns to interact. for these bulky pokemon running 50% pinch berries they can change the speed conditions, redirect attacks for their partner, and hit kang. these 3 things help your partner kill the kang (since the bulky 50% pinch berry pokemon will likely not being killing the kang solo).

Here is a list of things you can use to beat kang:
mega gengar
50% pinch berries like mago berry
sitrus berry
pokemon with >100 base hp (tyranitar, amoonguss, kyurem-b, zygarde, hariyama, jirachi oh wait xd)
superpower landorus-t
hammer arm mega metagross
specs deo-a
low kick tyranitar
flash cannon aegislash
fightinium z tapu lele
terrakion
pheromosa
marowak-alola

tl;dr kang isn't as overbearing as people make it out to be, and there is counterplay to kang which is unexplored. kang is centralizing, but that is not a bad thing. do not ban kang
 
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#14
This isn't a pro- or anti-ban post, but rather just a question I want to ask to spark some discussion:

Have you started building counterteams to Kang/Zap/Fini builds? If so, what's working for you?

I'll start: It seems like some users have started responding to this suspect by bringing more offensive teambuilds. It seems like the answer to Kang fatstuff teams is to bring "hit hard, hit fast" teams that punish passive plays.

One archetype in particular I've noted lately is a resurgance of Rain Psychic Spam. This kind of build typically includes Kingdra, Politoed, Lele, Deoxys-A, Metagross-Mega, and a filler (I've been liking Zapdos, but Ludicolo also works here).

It's funny to me, because earlier in the meta I spammed this archetype quite a bit (and to good success) but retired that team when Hoopa-U Trick Room teams gained traction. However, between the rachi ban and rise of Kang fatstuff teams, I feel like I've seen less TR lately (not to say things like ZongRoom aren't still potent). As of late, I dusted off my old BrainStorm team (with a few modifications based on current meta knowledge, eg. Zapdos > Thundy) and have been finding it to be one of my more consistent teams -- at least on par with my numerous variants of Kang fat.
 

Memoric

never change what our past is
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Doubles Guardian
#15
Announcement: Due to the ladder not being up on time, the first laddering period will be shifted by 24 hours. This means that the start of the first period is now 12:01am Friday 3/30 and the end period 12:01am Tuesday 4/3. These times are in GMT -4.

The second laddering period is still the same.

Apologies to everyone on the matter :<
 
#17
the problem with that statement is mostly that it is incredibly easy to support kangaskhan without having any glaring weaknesses. we've seen a shitton of kang/fini/dos/zygarde teams that just mitigate every kang check. you want to check kangaskhan using gengar? sure, but zygarde dragon dances in your face and thousand arrows you, or zapdos just roosts on you. you want to use aegislash with wide guard? groundium Z can get around that.

ferrothorn? majorbowman (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-256352) used heatran against biosci, and won. or samvgc vs zach. stax also used aurora veil ninetales which means you take little damage from ferrothorn and it is free to wish up anytime it wants, mitigating the rocky helmet + iron barbs damage.

surprise fighting types? arguably terrakion is the only good one and even that one's arguable, and there's a tapu fini that deals with it. arguably assault vest tapu bulu with superpower sounds like a good check, but every team runs a fire or a different check (heatran, volcarona, celesteela, ninetales)

so obviously, you could use the same argument against me, saying that it is possible to counter such builds. sadly the kang/fini/dos/zygarde archetype doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, and it has enough variation in the last two slots to make it difficult to counterteam. it also causes significant centralization up to the point where it is simply impossible to deviate in builds slightly because it is too easy to get steamrolled by kang.

so yeah i'll be voting ban kang
 
#18
In the 7th gen, with the nerf of its hability, Mega-kangaskhan has started to seem bulky, with “wish” and “seismic toss”, overcentralizing the metagame , together with the Cores fini + zapdos, also beating almost all the metagame with 2 hits except some cases like tyranitar or kyurem, because of this I vote for the banning of kangaskhan.
 
#19
I vote to keep Kangaskhan, with the gen 7 nerf and a plethora of strong and fast pokemon in gen 7 along with bulky pokemon that makes kangaskhan more useful with seismic toss such as celesteela, it isnt terribly hard to kill with more offensive pokemon, but it is strong against bulky mons, so it definitely evens the scales on bulk versus power.

FINAL VERDICT: KEEP
 

Kaori

Shall I take you to a place in town where wishes come true?
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Moderator
#20
Finally done laddering, gonna give thoughts on suspect process and on Kang.

Suspect process: overall good, Doubles ladder will never be super competitive but this suspect process does a good job of negating that and I played a lot more high level games than I did in XY suspects (didn't get the chance to do the SM rachi suspect as I was on vacation both weekends). GXE, game, and COIL requirements all seem pretty fair as well. Don't know that I'd change anything besides possibly adding suspect tournaments for those busy on the weekends.

On Kangaskhan: This is the team I used the entirety of the suspect on the account I got reqs on.



Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 108 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Protect

Mew @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Synchronize
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 180 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Transform

Tyranitar @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Dragon Dance
- Protect

Amoonguss @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sludge Bomb
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- After You

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 176 HP / 164 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

Zapdos @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 24 SpA / 120 SpD / 60 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Tailwind
- Roost


Note: After You was changed to Giga Drain for the last ~7 or so games

I found that given recent meta trends and how Kangaskhan has effected the metagame that an awful lot of teams were dropping Intimidate. This led to me using Dual-Dancers with Mew, as well as 50% berry Amoonguss. A few takeaways were that:
  • A lot of teams didn't have adequate resources to deal with heavy setup
  • 50% berry Amoonguss was excellent at negating Kangaskhan's presence, as well as being an excellent Pokemon on the whole following the Jirachi ban.
  • Having no way to hit rock types hard blows, as seen by a big L taken to CB Rhyperior. On a more serious note, Ttar was excellent and I think it deserves more usage, DD or otherwise.
  • Rain + Psychic spam is incredibly strong. Granted this teams matchup vs it is absolutely horrendous, but I think I went like 2-5 against that team on Ladder.
Basically, I think Kang isn't the issue right now, and there are a number of ways to deal with it that people need to look into more. Ferrothorn in particular seems an incredible call given it's matchup vs both Rain/Psy spam and fat Kang stuff. I'm not entirely sold on Kang being balanced, but as of right now I also don't have enough evidence to really say it's banworthy. Feel free to make more posts here, I'll definitely be reading them and considering them when voting time comes around.
 
#21
As a khan player myself, I have felt spamming Seismic Toss can be problematic. Yes, against bulk teams like Fini Zapdos, Kangaskhan reigns supreme. But what about hyper offense like the Psy Spam? Or Rain teams with Metagross? I have felt Khan is passive itself, as it fails to OHKO any Pokemon, and due to running bulk over speed, it is outsped by the majority of Pokemon, hence giving you an option of taking it out before it can react. Terrains are a boon, and when combined with weather, they can give your mon an exceptionally powerful boost in offense. Pokemon like Mega Gengar and Aegislash completely walls Kangaskhan. Aegislash can 2HKO Kangaskhan with Sacred sword as well. Whats more? We get the perfect Khan counter in a few months: MARSHADOW. Wonder why haven't anyone posted about it yet.

Marshadow is ghost and fighting type. THE perfect counter to khan (guess game freak finally realized the need for it, eh?). People might say Marshadow might be broken as well, as it hurts Salamence, Khan, metagross, Mega Gengar for super effective damage with its overwhelming speed stat. However, it isn't without weaknesses. A +1 Mence can easily outspeed and OHKO it. Hoopa can tank a hit from it, and can KO it easily with a Hyperspace Fury.

Techs are a thing because of Pokemon like Khan, who become so common people can afford to waste a moveslot for a specific counter. Khan 2HKO's you? You OHKO before it happens. I feel people are attached to Fini Zapdos so much they fail to realize other possibilities. Khan isn't so broken it guarantees a set up option, it isn't broken because it can 2hko the meta with its low speed. It is broken because people haven't adapted to it. with Jirachi gone, Khan became relevant enough to be a powerful mega, and it hasn't even been that long. Whats more? Khan is the one mon that can handle bulk teams from running rampant. Remember when people said Psy Spam would be tier 1 after the Rachi ban? Bulk teams like Fini Zap stops it. Who stops those bulk teams though? Khan does. With sufficient techs and counters, Khan fails to be a threat that is ban worthy. People say Fighting-types are not used cus of the Tapus. Maybe they haven't grasped how to use said fighting types in this meta yet, because there was no need for it until now. We don't even NEED fighting type pokemon necessarily, as we have Z-Moves. Something that is capable of One shotting Mega Khan.

My verdict? : Keep Khan
 
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#22
Whats more? We get the perfect Khan counter in a few months: MARSHADOW. Wonder why haven't anyone posted about it yet.
you answered yourself. we don't even know when marshadow is going to be released, and people do not want to play in a metagame dominated by kang for another few months just so something provides a marginally better kang matchup.
 

miltankmilk

please tell me you're seeing this too.
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#24
As a khan player myself, I have felt spamming Seismic Toss can be problematic. Yes, against bulk teams like Fini Zapdos, Kangaskhan reigns supreme. But what about hyper offense like the Psy Spam? Or Rain teams with Metagross? I have felt Khan is passive itself, as it fails to OHKO any Pokemon, and due to running bulk over speed, it is outsped by the majority of Pokemon, hence giving you an option of taking it out before it can react. Terrains are a boon, and when combined with weather, they can give your mon an exceptionally powerful boost in offense. Pokemon like Mega Gengar and Aegislash completely walls Kangaskhan. Aegislash can 2HKO Kangaskhan with Sacred sword as well. Whats more? We get the perfect Khan counter in a few months: MARSHADOW. Wonder why haven't anyone posted about it yet.

Marshadow is ghost and fighting type. THE perfect counter to khan (guess game freak finally realized the need for it, eh?). People might say Marshadow might be broken as well, as it hurts Salamence, Khan, metagross, Mega Gengar for super effective damage with its overwhelming speed stat. However, it isn't without weaknesses. A +1 Mence can easily outspeed and OHKO it. Hoopa walls it, and can KO it easily with a Hyperspace Fury.

Techs are a thing because of Pokemon like Khan, who become so common people can afford to waste a moveslot for a specific counter. Khan 2HKO's you? You OHKO before it happens. I feel people are attached to Fini Zapdos so much they fail to realize other possibilities. Khan isn't so broken it guarantees a set up option, it isn't broken because it can 2hko the meta with its low speed. It is broken because people haven't adapted to it. with Jirachi gone, Khan became relevant enough to be a powerful mega, and it hasn't even been that long. Whats more? Khan is the one mon that can handle bulk teams from running rampant. Remember when people said Psy Spam would be tier 1 after the Rachi ban? Bulk teams like Fini Zap stops it. Who stops those bulk teams though? Khan does. With sufficient techs and counters, Khan fails to be a threat that is ban worthy. People say Fighting-types are not used cus of the Tapus. Maybe they haven't grasped how to use said fighting types in this meta yet, because there was no need for it until now. We don't even NEED fighting type pokemon necessarily, as we have Z-Moves. Something that is capable of One shotting Mega Khan.

My verdict? : Keep Khan
Alright so I want to address this if people are conflicted on how to vote because I'm not letting "keep kang because seismic toss doesn't ohko things" and "we're getting a good check to it sometime soon but we don't know when" be the final posts before people vote. This logic is ridiculous, there are plenty of pokemon that miss out on OHKOs but can be ridiculous in the tier they are in and even DOU has a recent history of not taking raw OHKO power into account when voting to ban a pokemon. The point is Kangaskhan can 2hko most pokemon in the metagame, equips itself with bulk and semi-reliable recovery in wish+protect, and supports its team with fake out. To reasonably check kanga without sacking your whole team in the process you either need to shape your gameplan around pressuring it, which can leave you susceptible to its partner, bringing a fast, strong fighting type that can one-shot Kanga, which the meta isn't kind to right now apart from Terrakion (which is arguable), or using Mega-gengar + a partner not made deadweight by Kang.

People are calling Kanga passive and I really don't understand this at all. It does 200 damage per turn and it doesn't care about intimidate. This is more damage than Lando-t is usually doing unless its hitting super effectively. Kanga provides so much offensively and while its defensive typing isn't resisting anything, it might as well be. It soft checks every passive set-up or support pokemon making it incredibly risk free to run Kangaskhan on your team unless you're afraid of the Kanga mirror and want to run mega-gengar. In my view the metagame may be able to adapt to Kanga down the road but it is such a burden to adequately prepare for on top of being incredibly difficult to play around in the match itself. Its tournament usage and winrate kind of speak for themselves as far as how dominant kanga has become since this bulky seismic toss set was discovered and I definitely think that it is too much for the current meta.
 

TSR

you can't break me down!
is a Tiering Contributor
#25
I don't usually post here at all and it's honestly pretty late, but w/e time for thoughts on kang:

As we all know, prevalance of Tapus on just about every serious team and the reintroduction of Mega Salamence has created a metagame where Kangaskhan thrives, many of it's typical checks that you'd see in XY are either harder to justify on a team or simply not so commonplace anymore. To continue off of miltankmilk's post above mine, I have yet to justify placing a Keldeo or other fighting-types bar Terrakion (and even that's a little iffy, imo) on any serious team I've built so far. Granted the quality of my teams may be a bit lacking in comparison to more invested doubles players, but my claim still stands. The thing is, there are plenty of checks to the conventional SM Kangaskhan, but you really have to think about its common partners. Doubles after all is vastly different in how a battle pans out, and checking a Pokemon in a 1v1 situation is almost always not the case in the format. Many of Kang's common partners like Zygarde, Hoopa, Tapu Fini and Koko, can completely invalidate its best checks while standing next to it. Aegislash and Mega Gengar are relatively helpless while standing down against Zygarde and Hoopa, and the ubiquity of terrains make Tapus almost universally used in teambuilding, and discourage the use of otherwise strong Fighting-types that have the ability to OHKO Kang. As for my claim of its checks losing popularity in the meta, things like Celesteela appearing, as well as Heatran greatly rising, give Aegislash as a primary Steel-type a ton of competiton, both offensively in Heatran's case, or defensively as a Wide Guard/Sub/etc. user in Celesteela's. Reintroducing Mega Salamence and Shaymin-S as well as Tapu Koko give teams a lot more fast options in the base 120-130 speed tiers, making Mega Gengar a bit more of a harder choice in teambuilding outside of countering Kangaskhan builds. All of this has made the current meta extremely friendly to Kang, and gives it the option to run these bulky sets which are proving to be more troublesome than its AoA sets and the like in ORAS. Its kinda silly to be perfectly honest, I've found myself at an overall disadvantage in the meta by not running Kang/Fini/Zapdos/Ground/Steel/filler as that team archetype is simply just the superior choice at the moment.
tl;dr - ban kang

That being said, I don't see it as an impossibility to ban Kangaskhan and then eventually reintroduce it to the tier. While UU is largely non-related to this metagame in the slightest, I do believe some of our current doctrine would be useful here. We've been using what's come to be known as "the kokoloko method" for all of the Pokemon banned during beta. For anyone reading this that might be unaware of what this entails, this was the method in which kokoloko suspected controversial Pokemon during his time as tier leader in the BW era. Essentially, any Pokemon that proves to be remotely troubling in the tier is immediately thrown out, then in later stages of the metagame we reintroduce them one by one to reevaluate their position in the tier. I've had the experience of being directly involved in the process, by being swapped into a rotating council seat during our vote on Azumarill. This exact method isn't exactly what I'm recommending as THE way that doubles should do their suspects from now on, the overall doctrine of what I'd describe as "quick-fix followed by slow and deliberate damage control" might not be too bad of an idea to apply to the current metagame. The idea is okay in itself but doesn't need to be thrown around willy-nilly, as I highly doubt there will ever be a time in which the Doubles OU tier needs to make 3-5 bans per week, so there's no need to stray from the regular suspect process. Rather, the idea of reintroducing Kangaskhan (and maybe even Jirachi, who knows) on the potential of metagame shifts later in the gen, which is a reason why I feel a lot more confident in banning Kang as compared to my vote on Jirachi late into ORAS. It's certainly not a perfect system, as with all things, but the idea of getting rid of the problematic Kangaskhan now and perhaps taking a second look when it may not be so problematic seems like a fair idea to me.
 
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