Metagame np: DOU Stage 4 - Galaxies

kamikaze

The King Of Games
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Doubles Magician
#1

Fight back the flight deck
Bring on the breakneck
Cue the solar eclipse
Summit the sunset
Dovetail the dragnet
And blow your backbone to bits

Welcome to the fourth Suspect Test of SM Doubles OU! Deoxys-A has been a longtime member of the Doubles OU over the past few years. It was always a glass cannon Pokemon that could drop heavy nukes with Psycho Boost and had access to a multitude of options in Ice Beam, Superpower, Extreme Speed, Dark Pulse. Things however changed in SM. Common checks such as Mega Kangaskhan and Jirachi were banned, priority attacker Talonflame received a heavy nerf this gen, as well as Tapu Lele's entrance into the generation which brought Psychic Terrain. Psychic Terrain giving a 1.5 times boost to all Psychic moves made Deoxys heavily focused on dropping STAB Psychic nukes to OHKO and even nearly OHKO threats that would normally check it such as Steels. A lot of Deoxys-A have even dropped the usual Focus Sash item for items such as Choice Specs or Z Crystals to maximize its offensive nuking potential to rip big holes in teams before fainting so its partners can clean up. The priority protection from Psychic Terrain also protects Deoxys from something that was commonly used to check it in the previous generation, forcing most teams to either pack something very fast such as a Choice Scarf Pokemon to outspeed it before it can drop a heavy nuke or be forced to make potentially costly trades.

As usual, the only requirements to vote for the suspect are the ladder points required further below on the post. There are NO posting requirements; still, we advise everyone to actually read the arguments others present for and against Deoxy-A's overbearing metagame presence (or lack thereof) and still attempt to participate in discussion on this thread. A sheer volume of people saying one thing or another will change nobody's opinion so make sure you're actually doing something to make people think.

Important Info!: The ladder will only be open for eight days. Yes, you read that right! The suspect ladder will now only be open for four days at the end of the week only and there will be two laddering periods. This will hopefully concentrate competitive players into a tighter time period as they now can't play games on early weekdays against less (high level) competition, alleviating concerns about the competitiveness of the suspect ladder.

Ladder Period 1
Start: Wednesday 10/25 11pm (GMT -4)
End: Sunday 10/29 11pm (GMT -4)

Ladder Period 2
Start: Wednesday 11/1 11pm (GMT -4)
End: Sunday 11/5 11pm (GMT -4)

Note: The ladder rankings from the first laddering period will carry over to the second. The suspect ladder will only be up at those listed times and will be taken down between sessions. This time instead of the usual full Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun ladders will be both starting and ending 1 hour earlier due to some accommodations with PS that were made to help us run this suspect test. The vote will commence after Ladder Period 2.
Deoxys-Attack will be allowed on the suspect ladder.
The B value for this suspect is 14.5. One will need to achieve a COIL of 2600 to qualify. In addition, one will also be required to have a minimum of 76.85 GXE with a game limit of 60 maximum.
N=14.5/log2(40*GXE/2600)

Remember to keep an open mind in this suspect! Please respect the opinions of others; remember, just because you believe in your side does not mean the other is wrong!

Have fun
 
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#2
there is no fucking way you people think deoxys is the problem. forgive me, im not as active of a dou player as i used to be, but i sure as hell know this is wildly incorrect. i *assume* this suspect is being done instead of lele bc lele by itself isn't a super great pokemon, so you think you're dealing with the problem by dealing with deo-a. deo is not a great pokemon, certainly not as good enough for a suspect, without tapu lele. i for one have not seen deo on very many successful teams that don't also include a lele. i've been a proponent of a tapu lele suspect literally since we started playing SM and this is just... wrong. there's no other way to put it. i really think deo is not the problem. i will absolutely vote no ban and then go to majorbowmans apartment and throw tapu lele plushes at his window until he convinces the rest of you of how bad a decision this is.

ok, maybe i came off a bit mean. i just would rather see lele done than deo. i agree that it is a good mixed strong thing but it has always been that. i dont think z-moves have made it suspect worthy.
 
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Mizuhime

Lets keep our secrets dirty
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#3
thank

the

lord.

This in my belief has been extremely long overdue. Deo's ability to run the most dangerous mix set in the game has put a giant hinder on the meta for quite some time. Building is extremely restricted due to it's existence and even dedicated counters like Celesteela can come in and take 70% from one attack by things like fight-z or Thunder on rain teams. Deo isn't the one trick pony it use to be anymore, and it's been one of the biggest problems in the meta for quite some time now. It somehow manages to be even better thanks to terrain but it's still broken without it.

I'll also speak for the council, and give you a tier leaders point of view on the test taking place now. This test is not a result of the game that took place today, this has been a long time coming and they wouldn't run a suspect test during a major smogon tournament and during DLT, no point in disrupting the meta that much when it could wait a few extra weeks.
 
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#4
I'll write up a more elaborate post on my thoughts on Deoxys-A later, but quick question: if we ban Deoxys-A do we still get to use Deoxys-normal and Deoxys-speed? In the hypothetical case that Deo-A gets banned, it really just gets a slight nerf but can still persist through its different forms...
 

MajorBowman

i can take a beating like a good pair of headphones
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#5
there is no fucking way you people think deoxys is the problem. forgive me, im not as active of a dou player as i used to be, but i sure as hell know this is wildly incorrect. i *assume* this suspect is being done instead of lele bc lele by itself isn't a super great pokemon, so you think you're dealing with the problem by dealing with deo-a. deo is not a great pokemon, certainly not as good enough for a suspect, without tapu lele. i for one have not seen deo on very many successful teams that don't also include a lele. i've been a proponent of a tapu lele suspect literally since we started playing SM and this is just... wrong. there's no other way to put it. i really think deo is not the problem. i will absolutely vote no ban and then go to majorbowmans apartment and throw tapu lele plushes at his window until he convinces the rest of you of how bad a decision this is.
i'm not sure if i'm more scared of your threat or your uneducated opinion :/
 

Mizuhime

Lets keep our secrets dirty
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#6
I'll write up a more elaborate post on my thoughts on Deoxys-A later, but quick question: if we ban Deoxys-A do we still get to use Deoxys-normal and Deoxys-speed? In the hypothetical case that Deo-A gets banned, it really just gets a slight nerf but can still persist through its different forms...
yes, deo-a is just one form. Think of it like rotom-w, rotom-c and so on. Each is a different pokemon despite sharing the same dex number
 

Pigeons

formerly Yuga42
#7
Interesting suspect, really not sure how I'll vote on this.

On one hand I fucking hate playing against Deoxys-A. I find it borderline impossible to face it and not lose at least 2 Pokemon without running some incredibly niche countermeasure like Excadrill sand. It could just be that I haven't personally figured out how to play against it yet but even when I'm running teams with terrain control, priority and Scarf users I still have a difficult time which indicates that counterplay to this Pokemon may be so difficult that it overly restricts teambuilding.

On the other hand, Deoxys just doesn't seem broken to me. I definitely agree with GenOne that banning Deoxys-A might not solve the issue entirely because Deoxys-N is not far away in terms of power and is even able to live some weaker attacks like Scarf Lando's Rock Slide. Still, Deo-A doesn't seem broken by itself. It misses 1hkos on most bulkier threats outside of Psychic Terrain, which hurts given its obvious lack of bulk. Its reliance on single-target moves forces a lot of scenarios where if the Deoxys user predicts wrong they just lose Deo without accomplishing anything. I do agree with n10sit to an extent that Psychic Terrain is the element that pushes Deo over the edge but I don't think Tapu Lele should be suspected either.

This situation really reminds me of Azumarill + Jirachi last gen, where neither was particularly broken individually but together they had extremely limited counterplay. I'm interested in seeing arguments from both sides since I'm really unsure what to think at the moment.
 
#9
If deo a goes, people will find alternatives fairly easily (look at the other deo forms for example) whereas lele is quite irreplaceable in the sense of negating a huge counterplay to hyper offensive mon deo a in prio while also giving added fire power. Deoxys normal could replace it fairly effortlessly, and as such I feel lele is integral to deoxys attack's and other psychic types ability to shred teams. I can't see deoxys attack being prominent in the absense of lele, however I believe vice versa to be true.
 
#10
rhetorical question. banning deo-a isn't gonna do much if deo-n and deo-s are still free.
uh deo-s has 95 base offenses, i dont think its gonna be a problem. That said, the concern about deoxys normal is definitely justified, I'd have to do calcs to see if there are any notable OHKOs or 2HKOs that it misses, but its pretty much the same thing.

Also Mizuhime , I'm not sure how much I agree with the sentiment that deo is still broken if you take away psychic terrain. It would seem to me that Deo loses a lot of its wallbreaking ability without terrain, and its certainly much easier to switch into. Right now, I think I'd rather ban psychic surge, but i'd be interested in seeing what deo can do w/out terrain, if you have any replays.
 
#13
why are we suspecting this pokemon at all
  • its absolutely not busted. its barely even usable. it only fits one team, and that team requires you to use the 2nd worst tapu
  • psychic is garbage
  • its easy to get chip damage on it via spread moves, sand, u-turn, prio (if you have your own tapu out)
  • you also have a tapu on your team if you aren't awful so you should be able to weaken psycho boost
  • it forces itself to switch after killing something, giving the opponent a ton of momentum
  • its pretty telegraphed which coverage it will be running
  • all speed control laughs at it
  • its called an assault vest and it belongs on at least one pokemon on every team.
  • cant even one shot sashed deo-A
  • cant even outspeed jolly scarf lando
  • cant even outspeed jolly scarf anything
  • winrate in tours is abysmal
 

miltankmilk

please tell me you're seeing this too.
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#14
While I understand a debate between a lele suspect and a deoxys suspect (which is fair and the reason we have NP threads in the first place), you probably don't play this game much if you think neither of these are a problem in the meta rn. I personally think deoxys is the problem and I'll try to do my best to lay out my reasoning of this.

First off Tapu lele is a disappointingly weak pokemon in this meta because of how badly it relies on its psychic terrain to do damage on its own. Deoxys on the other hand does not rely on psychic terrain for its power, obviously its greatly aided by it but Z-psycho boost is collecting a kill even without terrain. Adding onto this I believe the Z-psycho boost (and z coverage moves to a lesser extent) set pushes deoxys over the edge even without psychic terrain. Sash isn't really a great option anymore, partly because of the giant surge in SR usage, and partly because of how much power you lose by using sash instead of Z move, or even LO or Specs (its been a while since they were used but I believe they'd still be just as good of options on the right team). I also reject the argument that Deo only fits on one type of team. This is a really one-dimensional way of viewing this pokemon: yes its a glass cannon but there's room for that on many teams. The game between qsns and majorbowman, here, is referenced a lot but its a great example of deoxys being used in a way like it was in XY, just more stupidly powerful. Priority is less prevalent in the meta rn even on teams that have non-psychic terrains.

No deoxys is not going to 1v6 a team but its almost always going to take something with it, when its on the field it invalidates entire team structures and with Z-move being a more common set now this pokemon doesnt really have reliable switchins. These reasons as well as how difficult deo can be to revenge make this pokemon too strong for DOU.

Sidenote: I do think the power dropoff between deo-a and deo-n is significant enough to treat deo-a on its own but if people can show me replays of it succeeding i'd love to see them.
 
#15
Minor nitpick, I hate seeing that replay as a reference to how supposedly broken deoxys is. The team facing deoxys was poorly prepared for the archetype deoxys usually sees itself on in hyper offense. The deo player played well in a good matchup and got rewarded. I fail to see any clear indication on how this relates to it being broken. It's in the same vain as claiming rest talk scrafty is broken in oras ru because 'it beat my alomomola stall team'. Not being adequately prepared for an archetype or Pokemon does not make either of these things broken and unhealthy. I think the debate we should be having is the amount of strain deoxys and lele combinations have on teambuilding and how difficult it is to counterplay them in a matchup. It's up for debate but I feel like neither of these aspects are too severe, and most of my argument for this case can be outlined in hashtags post.

Also have people really been calling for this suspect for a long period of time? I've barely ever seen deoxys mentioned, it has a pretty abysmal record in circuit tournaments. I've had quite a lot of meta discussions with a wide range of players and I can't really recall deoxys ever being the subject of broken mons that need abolishing. I don't know, maybe it's fell under the radar or something.
 

marilli

two, but one.
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#16
I know I won't be available to ladder during this period thanks to the greatly timed ladder requirements, so let me get my thought out here hoping to convince some people because I know many people are already dead-set on banning Deo-A.

Also have people really been calling for this suspect for a long period of time? I've barely ever seen deoxys mentioned, it has a pretty abysmal record in circuit tournaments. I've had quite a lot of meta discussions with a wide range of players and I can't really recall deoxys ever being the subject of broken mons that need abolishing. I don't know, maybe it's fell under the radar or something.
That's what happens when people just have meta conversations w/ a few of their friends then just expect everyone else to know the content of the conversation + agree with their resolution. You can't just suddenly suspect something when there's been minimal public conversations on it, and at the same time expect people to be not surprised by it. I know certain people who aren't really "in" on the conversations being massively confused about this suspect.

I know council will be like wtf dudes this is only a hobby why should we do all that work for nobodies and I'm putting myself under attack. w/e. But hell, the NP thread exists for the very purpose. The VR also exists for this purpose. If you guys really think it's good, then you guys should nom it up. You guys do this every month anyways so I don't see how "conversing" with the playerbase in this manner is any more work. And more on this next.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-viability-rankings.3592903/page-11#post-7555458

As a Snake teammate I talked to qsns a whole lot about the current state of the overall metagame and state of VR. I think it's all incredibly weird. A Pokemon stays in T2 cuz the council refuses to recognize it as good. Until they realize that balance as a playstyle has been suffering heavily since the release of Marshadow and people finally waking up to the power of Stealth Rocks. Hence, we get a state of council where they refuse to see it as actually consistently good, yet want to ban it for creating too many 50-50s and its ability to use Z-moves to get a KO and create trades. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. It's just like how certain players have been whining of Terracott yet actually refuse to put Whimsicott on the VR.

In DOU, VGC, BSS/BSD, People "bulk creep" the way no smogon singles tier does. People will drop speed on fast threats like Mega Mence or Tapu Koko in order to bulk-creep. And I understand that many people buy into this philosophy that basically makes some literally never use Pokemon like Scarf Landorus-T or using priority moves or do anything aside from pleasuring themselves with boring old Tapu Fini - Zapdos defensive pairs and expect to take all attacks just sitting in on everything, when in fact both Pokemon don't even resist a whole lot and just rely on their busted raw stats to just tank everything while taking neutral damage. Surprise, you need to resist hits playing a defensive style.

Release of Marshadow + people realizing Stealth Rocks is actually good, not Deoxys-A, has been the ruin of fat teams in DOU. There's a great reason why singles players (6v6) never drop speed on offensive Pokemon the way Japanese BSS players make "Japanese" bulk adjustments. It's not because they're bad, but that Stealth Rocks ruin all your plans to consistently switch in and out to resisted moves and retain the bulk to tank a huge Z-nuke.

Yet, I'm not going as far as to say that Deo-A and Marsh and SR has ruined defensive teams to unviability. Remember that SR isn't even "that" good vs heavily offensive teams anyways. If offense were dominating the meta like people claim, then you won't see SR. The fact that SR still see a ton of play is a testament to how bulky fat teams are still prevalent and quite good, to the point that offense needs to set these chip damage up in order to break through in an efficient manner.

I think Deoxys-A is incredibly good. Still, I think people needs to actually adjust to this meta trend and actually prep for Deo-A instead of just resorting to bringing no counters and relieving themselves with the fact that Deo-A is a "shit gimmick mon anyways" like how people managed to talk themselves into bringing teams 6-0ed by Terracott vs Biosci in SPL and tell themselves it's "OK Teambuilding" cuz Terracotts a shitty ladder gimmick anyways. I would like to see games where both sides are actually accounting Deo-A as a real threat. And if it's still broken then, we can ban it.

Or, we can take the stax approach and ban both. Both require ur team to heavily invest into matchup prep. But I don't see how this is unique to Deoxys-A, aside from the fact that people are simply dropping Deo-A coverage on it. In fact, it goes against every tiering philosophy DOU stood for, keeping Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Salamence, Azurachi, and such. I cannot believe that these Pokemon are less painful to prep for than Deo-A. I know that "teambuilding strain" is an argument but it's a very shitty one: people have to accept that your team won't beat everything, but that doesn't mean that you have to drop coverage on this very specific mon if it's gaining steam. Accept that we're playing a rng and matchup-based game.

TL;DR: Deo-A is good, even top tier. Accept that Deo-A is good and then maybe you can start prepping for it.
 
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#17
I have heard Deo-A requiring a ban on SuMo release, but now? People have adapted to this archetype. Z-Psycho Boost OHKO'ing Pokemon? That's the whole point of Z-Moves. Its supposed to OHKO stuff. Deo-A loses to a lot of play styles; Speed control laughs at it, Sandstorm/Hail/SR breaks sash and makes switch ins impossible (Deo-A dies to a friggin Snarl from a Suicune), get rid of Psy-Terrain and you weaken it considerably. Remember, Focus Sash and Pinch Berries are a thing.

I don't think Deo-A restricts team building much, mostly because Deo-A probably sacrifices itself taking out one of your mons. If you are saying Deo-A is broken because it OHKO's one of your Pokemon without fail, then you might as well suspect Unburden Accelgor with Final Gambit. If you can't handle this Pokemon, then either your team got some flaws or you need a better game plan.

I feel like this suspect came out of nowhere, and is even worse than the Marshadow suspect.

Definitely going with NO BAN.

Mew Mew
 

Mizuhime

Lets keep our secrets dirty
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#18
I have heard Deo-A requiring a ban on SuMo release, but now? People have adapted to this archetype. Z-Psycho Boost OHKO'ing Pokemon? That's the whole point of Z-Moves. Its supposed to OHKO stuff. Deo-A loses to a lot of play styles; Speed control laughs at it, Sandstorm/Hail/SR breaks sash and makes switch ins impossible (Deo-A dies to a friggin Snarl from a Suicune), get rid of Psy-Terrain and you weaken it considerably. Remember, Focus Sash and Pinch Berries are a thing.

I don't think Deo-A restricts team building much, mostly because Deo-A probably sacrifices itself taking out one of your mons. If you are saying Deo-A is broken because it OHKO's one of your Pokemon without fail, then you might as well suspect Unburden Accelgor with Final Gambit. If you can't handle this Pokemon, then either your team got some flaws or you need a better game plan.

I feel like this suspect came out of nowhere, and is even worse than the Marshadow suspect.

Definitely going with NO BAN.

Mew Mew
First and foremost you saying that z pshcho boost is ohkoing Pokemon just puts your ignorance on display for the entire world. No one uses that. What it is using is z coverage moves that make it the most dangerous mixed attacker in the tier allowing it to get at least 2 kills for free. Of course deo lacks bulk, that's been apparent since it's introduction to Pokemon in the 3rd generation but safe switches are a thing and regardless of it's bulk it still gets pretty much 2 kills a game.

Deo restrict builds like crazy, you have to run a steel-type on every team and at least something else to take a hit, and even then it's sometimes not enough. If you bring 6 deo counters (there isn't even 6 in the tier) you end up having a shitty team that's weak to everything. Deo blows up regular teams, it's insanely hard to build for.

edit: i've been told some people do use psych z and I just have never seen it but regardless the entire point of the suspect is the coverage z moves that deo can utilize and remove it's own counters from the game, what little of them existed in the first place

level 51 edit: removed the ruder bits
 
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#19
With all due respect, never post again.

First and foremost you saying that z pshcho boost is ohkoing Pokemon just puts your ignorance on display for the entire world. No one uses that. What it is using is z coverage moves that make it the most dangerous mixed attacker in the tier allowing it to get at least 2 kills for free. Of course deo lacks bulk, that's been apparent since it's introduction to Pokemon in the 3rd generation but safe switches are a thing and regardless of it's bulk it still gets pretty much 2 kills a game.

Deo restrict builds like crazy, you have to run a steel-type on every team and at least something else to take a hit, and even then it's sometimes not enough. If you bring 6 deo counters (there isn't even 6 in the tier) you end up having a shitty team that's weak to everything. Deo blows up regular teams, it's insanely hard to build for.

One thing I wish you did was actually read the discussion taking place in the thread before making you useless post about unburden accelgor xd, that kind of discussion isn't needed here and doesn't add anything other than a driving force making me want to dig my own eyes out with a spoon while looking at the sheer stupidity of the post.
I see many people are fired up about the Accelgor. It was just an expression. Please understand the context and try to broaden your horizon. Now, It is precisely because I read previous discussion that I mentioned Z-Psycho Boost.

obviously its greatly aided by it but Z-psycho boost is collecting a kill even without terrain.

No deoxys is not going to 1v6 a team but its almost always going to take something with it, when its on the field it invalidates entire team structures and with Z-move being a more common set now this pokemon doesnt really have reliable switchins. These reasons as well as how difficult deo can be to revenge make this pokemon too strong for DOU.
You don't need "insane" bulk to tank deo's attack. I have had my fair share of battles against Deo-users, and I can say getting rid of terrain immensely helps. Even though we have Z-Moves and Mega Evolution, and the attack boost from terrains, SuMo did give us its fair share of defensive options in Pinch Berries, Celesteela, Tapu Fini/Bulu, Aurora Veil and the Terrain Seeds. From my experience, the defensive aspect of the format is quite excellent in dealing with nuke's that rely on terrain to deal with bulky Pokemon.

One last thing. "With all due respect" =/= typing something obviously disrespectful and rude. I simply posted my opinions, that's all.
 

miltankmilk

please tell me you're seeing this too.
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#20
I have heard Deo-A requiring a ban on SuMo release, but now? People have adapted to this archetype. Z-Psycho Boost OHKO'ing Pokemon? That's the whole point of Z-Moves. Its supposed to OHKO stuff. Deo-A loses to a lot of play styles; Speed control laughs at it, Sandstorm/Hail/SR breaks sash and makes switch ins impossible (Deo-A dies to a friggin Snarl from a Suicune), get rid of Psy-Terrain and you weaken it considerably. Remember, Focus Sash and Pinch Berries are a thing.

I don't think Deo-A restricts team building much, mostly because Deo-A probably sacrifices itself taking out one of your mons. If you are saying Deo-A is broken because it OHKO's one of your Pokemon without fail, then you might as well suspect Unburden Accelgor with Final Gambit. If you can't handle this Pokemon, then either your team got some flaws or you need a better game plan.

I feel like this suspect came out of nowhere, and is even worse than the Marshadow suspect.

Definitely going with NO BAN.

Mew Mew
Without being too confrontational I don't think a lot of the assumptions or arguments you've made here show an understanding of the metagame or experience playing against high level opponents using deoxys. I'll try to explain why deoxys is more than just "hurr durr lets trade my glass cannon for one pokemon and then die" every game like an Unburden accelgor would.

Z-moves ohkoing stuff is not actually as common as you seem to think, unless you're hitting super effectively. Deoxys Z-psycho boost ohkos bulky neutral targets without terrain which is pretty ridiculous. If all z moves did this, sure we wouldn't be having a discussion about this deoxys set, but Deo-a Z psycho boost is an anomaly for its power rather than the rule.
here are a few examples of how much stronger deo's z move is than other common z move users:
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Shattered Psyche (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 357-421 (103.7 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 249-294 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 246-289 (71.5 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (in misty terrain)
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Tapu Fini: 291-343 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I use fini as the example here because it is one of the most common pokemon in the format and takes neutral damage from many common z moves.

Secondly you say that speed control laughs at it. I would argue against this as well. While many trick room setters can set TR in front of Deo, common tailwind setters do not have this luxury. Depending on Zapdos' spread it can be ohkod by Psycho Boost out of terrain and can even be taken out at +1 spdef by Z move out of terrain (again depending on spread). Although you are the only one who uses suicune I've even included that calc to show that even suicune does not set tailwind on it!
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Shattered Psyche (200 BP) vs. 244 HP / 28 SpD Suicune: 397-468 (98.7 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

You also underestimate a player's ability to maximize the use of deoxys, while its not able to take very many hits players can absolutely position themselves in ways to get multiple kills with deoxy. I did this in Snake vs Memoric (seen here) where i put myself in a position to pick up several KOs with deoxys and even could let it sit unprotected for quite a while.

I can see the merits of your assertion that the suspect came out of nowhere. A lot of the discussion over what is broken or suspect worthy in the meta occurs in other channels these days (although usually it is in the public DOU discord). That could certainly be improved and I myself will try to post more about the metagame itself if that is helpful.
 
#21
Without being too confrontational I don't think a lot of the assumptions or arguments you've made here show an understanding of the metagame or experience playing against high level opponents using deoxys. I'll try to explain why deoxys is more than just "hurr durr lets trade my glass cannon for one pokemon and then die" every game like an Unburden accelgor would.

Z-moves ohkoing stuff is not actually as common as you seem to think, unless you're hitting super effectively. Deoxys Z-psycho boost ohkos bulky neutral targets without terrain which is pretty ridiculous. If all z moves did this, sure we wouldn't be having a discussion about this deoxys set, but Deo-a Z psycho boost is an anomaly for its power rather than the rule.
here are a few examples of how much stronger deo's z move is than other common z move users:
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Shattered Psyche (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 357-421 (103.7 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 249-294 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Tapu Fini: 246-289 (71.5 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (in misty terrain)
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Tapu Fini: 291-343 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I use fini as the example here because it is one of the most common Pokemon in the format and takes neutral damage from many common z moves.

Secondly you say that speed control laughs at it. I would argue against this as well. While many trick room setters can set TR in front of Deo, common tailwind setters do not have this luxury. Depending on Zapdos' spread it can be ohkod by Psycho Boost out of terrain and can even be taken out at +1 spdef by Z move out of terrain (again depending on spread). Although you are the only one who uses suicune I've even included that calc to show that even suicune does not set tailwind on it!
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Shattered Psyche (200 BP) vs. 244 HP / 28 SpD Suicune: 397-468 (98.7 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

You also underestimate a player's ability to maximize the use of deoxys, while its not able to take very many hits players can absolutely position themselves in ways to get multiple kills with deoxy. I did this in Snake vs Memoric (seen here) where i put myself in a position to pick up several KOs with deoxys and even could let it sit unprotected for quite a while.

I can see the merits of your assertion that the suspect came out of nowhere. A lot of the discussion over what is broken or suspect worthy in the meta occurs in other channels these days (although usually it is in the public DOU discord). That could certainly be improved and I myself will try to post more about the metagame itself if that is helpful.
Hmm, interesting. I admit, I have never fought Z-move Deo-A before, I have only heard of the set from Frania, and from your earlier post. The Z-Move seems quite powerful. But like all Z-Moves, Protect/Detect weakens it considerably, or you can switch in dark types or bulky steel-types like Aegislash to tank it. Infact, Deo-A requires this offensive power to make up for its lack of defense. The EV's are the 'common' spreads, but as meta develops, so do Pokemon sets. Not to mention, Z-Move Deo-A gets OHKO'd by a Marshadow Shadow Sneak in Misty Terrain, or even any attack from a Timid/Jolly Scarf user. Pokemon isn't a game solely played by relying on calc's. While Deo-A is strong, it got Pokemon that can wall it. I forgot to mention this in my previous post, but weather abusers like Swift Swim kingdra outspeeds and OHKO's it. Yes, Deo-A might be a Tier One Pokemon in the DOU Metagame, but it got its outs and weaknesses. Both the Deo-A user and the opponent has to play skillfully to even the grounds. And as the meta develops with new sets, people adapt to using different strategy, like the AV kyube set which spiked in popularity recently.
marilli "bulk creep" is an excellent example of what I mean. The EV sets might not be constant, and could be updated as people find threats they can't handle.

My arguments might seem straightforward to the point I might not want to see Deo-A get banned. Truth be told, I personally am not too fond of facing Deo-A, mostly due to the reasons miltank mentioned. Just like how I don't like to face AV Kyube because I have yet to adapt. I guess I'll just wait and see how the discussion goes on from here.

PS: AV Kyub was just an expression to explain how people find strats difficult because they have yet to adapt.
 
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#22
Okay so I want to start this off by saying I don't write a lot so please excuse any grammatical errors or me being generally stupid.

I don't understand where this is coming from. Is Deo-A a good Pokémon? Yes. Is Deo-A broken? Hell no. This thing dies to literally anything that touches it, and I feel like y'all are forgetting stuff like Focus Sash, priority moves (and before you say "but Lele", think about why Lele isn't the one on the chopping block), frankly, I agree with Mr.GX speed control does stop this thing. I don't think having a steel type on a team is restricting, I think it's a generally smart idea, but I don't know, maybe that's just me.

Assuming I find the time to ladder, I'm voting NO BAN.

PS: are we all simultaneously forgetting dark is immune to psychic or am I missing something?
 
#23
Okay so I want to start this off by saying I don't write a lot so please excuse any grammatical errors or me being generally stupid.

I don't understand where this is coming from. Is Deo-A a good Pokémon? Yes. Is Deo-A broken? Hell no. This thing dies to literally anything that touches it, and I feel like y'all are forgetting stuff like Focus Sash, priority moves (and before you say "but Lele", think about why Lele isn't the one on the chopping block), frankly, I agree with Mr.GX speed control does stop this thing. I don't think having a steel type on a team is restricting, I think it's a generally smart idea, but I don't know, maybe that's just me.

Assuming I find the time to ladder, I'm voting NO BAN.

PS: are we all simultaneously forgetting dark is immune to psychic or am I missing something?
the problem with deoxys is that it has ways to either ohko or do at least like 80% to any steel or dark types that might want to switch in to it.

4 Atk Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 536-632 (147.6 - 174.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Deoxys-Attack All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Thunder vs. 232 HP / 200+ SpD Celesteela: 252-298 (64.1 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this one is for rain teams)
4 Atk Deoxys-Attack Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (you can follow this up with psycho boost to get the kill)

so basically the problem with deoxys is that the counterplay is pretty much limited to bulky trick room users and really fast scarfers
 
#24
[11:42 PM] GenOne: Just a friendly reminder that this thread exists for a very good reason: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-dou-stage-4-galaxies.3618612/ It's fine (actually good) to discuss this in discord, but please consider capturing this discussion afterwards in the thread so the broader Smogon community can be in the loop.
[11:37 PM] KyleCole: megacyber

[11:37 PM] MegaCyber: sup?

[11:37 PM] KyleCole: no hate meant by this at all but

[11:37 PM] KyleCole: "so basically the problem with deoxys is that the counterplay is pretty much limited to bulky trick room users and really fast scarfers"

[11:37 PM] KyleCole: do you find this limiting?

[11:37 PM] KyleCole: like thats still a massive range of stuff available no?
[11:38 PM] MegaCyber: lil bit, yeah

[11:38 PM] MegaCyber: i mean it forces you into two team archetypes

[11:38 PM] MegaCyber: ho and tr

[11:38 PM] KyleCole: i dont think having a scarfer or having a tr setter forces an archetype

[11:39 PM] KyleCole: in XY unless you were full blown TR you needed a scarfer or rain sweeper

[11:39 PM] KyleCole: which by the way deserves mentioning there

[11:39 PM] Kaori: or thundurus

[11:39 PM] Kaori: :I

[11:39 PM] marilli: thund :|

[11:39 PM] KyleCole: nah you would still need a scarfer

[11:39 PM] Kaori: i want thundurus back

[11:39 PM] KyleCole: but that doesnt matter rn

[11:39 PM] MegaCyber: yeah

[11:39 PM] Kaori: semiroom could function without a scarfer

[11:39 PM] MegaCyber: idk, its p hard to deal with deo if you wanna run balance

[11:39 PM] Kaori: i had plenty of success with that

[11:40 PM] KyleCole: i meant to add tr setter

[11:40 PM] KyleCole: to the list

[11:40 PM] Kaori: o ok

[11:40 PM] KyleCole: but like

[11:40 PM] KyleCole: mega cyber

[11:40 PM] KyleCole: you can run balance w a tr setter or scarfer

[11:40 PM] KyleCole: is what im saying

[11:40 PM] MegaCyber: like the thing is, its really difficult to get your scarfer / tr boi in safely

[11:40 PM] MegaCyber: vs deo

[11:41 PM] KyleCole: but its also pretty tough to get deo in vs those mons

[11:41 PM] KyleCole: so i dont feel like thats fair

[11:41 PM] MegaCyber: well on teams that run deo, u either lead it or bring it in to revenge kill

[11:41 PM] KyleCole: well i know for example when i see a deo

[11:41 PM] MegaCyber: its p risky to switch in ur deo

[11:41 PM] KyleCole: im probably leading at least fini + zap or a steel

[11:41 PM] KyleCole: and i dont feel limited, i just have my deo checks

[11:42 PM] Kaori: who would win, one metagame defining tapu with base 130 special defense OR one tentacle lad

[11:42 PM] GenOne: Just a friendly reminder that this thread exists for a very good reason: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-dou-stage-4-galaxies.3618612/ It's fine (actually good) to discuss this in discord, but please consider capturing this discussion afterwards in the thread so the broader Smogon community can be in the loop.


[11:42 PM] MegaCyber: lol fini + zap are not deo checks

[11:42 PM] KyleCole: fini zap checks deo


[11:42 PM] MegaCyber: lol wut

[11:42 PM] KyleCole: its not like a counter but its definitely a check

[11:42 PM] miltankmilk: free ho oh


[11:42 PM] MegaCyber: doesnt psycho boost do like 80 to either one

[11:43 PM] KyleCole: 80 is not enough to stop either one of those, especially zap

[11:43 PM] miltankmilk: z boost ohkos fini and does like 80 min to zap


[11:43 PM] MegaCyber: not to mention shattered psyche

[11:43 PM] mimi: tentacruel ohkos fini fwiw


[11:43 PM] MegaCyber: and i mean, if ur running ho, you're going to be running something specifically for fini/zap

[11:43 PM] MajorBowman: boost kills zap without z unless it has the seed boost

[11:43 PM] MajorBowman: i learned that one

[11:43 PM] MajorBowman: the hard way

[11:44 PM] KyleCole: well im assuming you have the seed boost

[11:44 PM] KyleCole: but

[11:44 PM] KyleCole: we're getting away from

[11:44 PM] KyleCole: so basically the problem with deoxys is that the counterplay is pretty much limited to bulky trick room users and really fast scarfers

[11:44 PM] KyleCole: lets assume this is true


[11:44 PM] MegaCyber: more or less

[11:44 PM] KyleCole: i dont know if it is but even if its 100% true and thats the only way

[11:44 PM] KyleCole: does that really seem so bad?


[11:44 PM] MegaCyber: yeah

[11:45 PM] KyleCole: how many tr setters are available? how many legit scarfer


[11:45 PM] MegaCyber: bulky tr users tend to be dead weight offensively, and those scarfers tend to be to frail to switch in

[11:45 PM] KyleCole: how offensive does a tr setter need to be to pressure out deo?

[11:45 PM] mimi: trick room in this gen needs a more offensive setter

[11:45 PM] talkingtree: lando-t, genesect, lele, victini is pretty much the full list of scarfers

[11:46 PM] KyleCole: hoopa & gard are offensive as frig

[11:46 PM] KyleCole: and victini

[11:46 PM] miltankmilk: gard is ass


[11:46 PM] MegaCyber: well the thing is, you cant just run tr cress and be like ok we're good against deo

[11:46 PM] miltankmilk: like i think its borderline unusable in the marsh meta


[11:46 PM] MegaCyber: because cress is ass in every other match up

[11:46 PM] KyleCole: ok but how many tr setters are on the VR?

[11:46 PM] KyleCole: many

[11:47 PM] talkingtree: 6

[11:47 PM] KyleCole: theres gotta be more than 6

[11:47 PM] talkingtree: sorry 7 i forgot victini

[11:47 PM] KyleCole: hoopa/zong/mew/victini/gardevoir/diancie/p2

[11:47 PM] mimi: mimikyu


[11:47 PM] MegaCyber: lmao

[11:47 PM] KyleCole: off the top of my head

[11:47 PM] KyleCole: mimikyu

[11:47 PM] GenOne: #freemimikyu

[11:47 PM] miltankmilk: is p2 ranked

[11:47 PM] GenOne: jk

[11:47 PM] miltankmilk: mimik isnt ranked

[11:47 PM] mimi: mimikyu is good

[11:47 PM] KyleCole: slowking isnt on there but its actually good

[11:47 PM] miltankmilk: mimikyu has been blacklisted in fact


[11:47 PM] MegaCyber: ok how many of those are viable on teams that arent full tr, and can switch in on deo

[11:47 PM] KyleCole: but anyways

[11:47 PM] mimi: better setter that victini or gard forsure


[11:48 PM] MegaCyber: tini is actually p cool, just not as a tr setter

[11:48 PM] KyleCole: im not going to say that theres a mon that can switch into z psychic, z dark, and z fighting moves because i doubt there is one

[11:48 PM] KyleCole: but

[11:48 PM] KyleCole: so basically the problem with deoxys is that the counterplay is pretty much limited to bulky trick room users and really fast scarfers

[11:48 PM] KyleCole: i think that even if this is true

[11:48 PM] mimi: mimi can

[11:48 PM] mimi: broken ability

[11:48 PM] KyleCole: you still have massive ranges of teams

[11:48 PM] MajorBowman: poor mimikyu

[11:48 PM] KyleCole: to choose from

[11:49 PM] GenOne: had mimi not been blacklisted

[11:49 PM] MegaCyber: well i mean if you can figure out its coverage, you can switch in on it

[11:49 PM] KyleCole: i dont think its limiting to requite one of those

[11:49 PM] MajorBowman: blacklisted by the showdown randoms that constantly nom it

[11:49 PM] KyleCole: is my point

[11:49 PM] MegaCyber: but by the time u do, theres a good chance you lose a mon

here's the link to the discord, btw: https://discordapp.com/invite/Cn9tJyy
 
#25
do you guys mind looking at vr / any tournament replays really before posting here? if only scarfers / tr users were checking deo it would actually be a problem

this has much more counterplay than some of the more commonly used mons like zapdos (5 checks), kingdra (6 checks) or marsh (only softchecks). also theres a couple ways of softchecking it with things like hail, vest kyub or bulu and pheramosa. you can make a case against deo and im not fully on board with it myself, but come on, think for a sec before you post here.
 
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