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Welcome to Doubles OU's second suspect test of the ORAS era! This month we're going to be revisiting Salamencite - banned by only one vote last time around and before Mega Diancie's rise to stardom, we're going to see if we're ready to take on this titan of a Pokemon.
The test will run for three weeks. Requirements come in two parts: ladder reqs and posting reqs. This time we'll only have one ladder, where Salamencite will be unbanned. To obtain ladder reqs, reach 2400 COIL on the ladder. I'll post the alt confirmation thread when I can be bothered. The posting reqs mean that you have to contribute in some way to this thread's discussion about Mega Salamence to vote. Please make sure to actually read the arguments others present for and against its brokenness (or lack thereof) and respond accordingly, or introduce new points; do not simply rehash an opinion. A sheer volume of people saying one thing or another will change nobody's opinion so make sure you're actually doing something to make people think. These reqs are subjective, meaning that the leadership can decide that you didn't meet them, even if you posted, if your posts aren't up to par. That means your post needs to make legitimate points (no "it's not broken if you can use it too") and show good metagame knowledge.
Like last time, the B value for this test is 16.0. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:
I'm actually pretty indifferent towards Salamence, I've never really seen it as ban-worthy tbh but I can see why people think it is too good. Guess I'll get reqs and see how it is in the meta.
mega salamence is very good pokemon. intimidate and then a 130 def, alot of physics pokemons won't even be able to hurt it. moves like rock slide didnt do much. moves like moonblast ad ice beam will get redirection and then the mega salamence sets up and kills the checks the turn after. Mega salamence hits too hard. my S+ rank ferrothorn can't even switch into this thing (252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%)) it is too strong. sorry about my english, i don't speak good at it. i hope this doesn't effect my right to vote
time for greninja hail to make a comeback for the first time since spl
shoutout to Mizuhime for helping me with never letting creativity die, welcome back you :D
edit: to say something relevant, I really am going to need to ladder a lot with this mence, and hopefully it shows more clearly this time wether or not it's borked!
I know there is gonna be a flood of references to Mega Mence + Jirachi without much explanation so I guess I will compile the points while not immediately taking a side as I want to explain the matchup as much as possible from a neutral standpoint on both ends.
Mega-Salamence
95/145/130/120/90/120
Ability: Aerilate (Intimidate before Mega)
Weaknesses: Ice, Dragon, Fairy, Rock
Resists/Immunities: Fire, Ground, Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting, Bug
Jirachi
100/100/100/100/100/100
Ability: Serene Grace
Weaknesses: Fire, Ground, Ghost, Dark
Resists/Immunities: Ice, Dragon, Fairy, Rock, Psychic, Poison, Normal, Grass, Flying (contains the complete set of mence weaknesses + more)
The Synergy: With the base 100 Stat-mon Jirachi able to redirect attacks with Follow Me, namely all of Mence's weaknesses and resisting them, it enables Mega Mence to freely get options such as setup DragonDance, Roost, Substitute, or just go straight for an attack like Double Edge, Return, or Hyper Voice. Follow Me is great because there is no way to stop the redirection bar a Taunt and is unlike Rage Powder where safety goggles and grass types may bypass it. Jirachi usually runs Leftover/SitrusBerry if it wants to supplement its bulk or Safety Goggles to soak in Spores from things such as an Amoonguss in Trick Room.
SpeedTiers: 252 Mence < 252+ Base100's < 252 M-Mence < 252+ Base108's < 252+ Base110's < 252+ M-Mence < Weavile/Darkrai < Shaymin-Sky
Note: Adamant Mega Salamence is something that actually outspeeds pokemon like Jolly Max Speed Mega-Kang which is still able to function at that speed tier.
Notable Threats to Mega Mence when Jirachi is using Follow Me are spread moves which hit both pokemon. Namely three common ones in current Doubles OU are.... 1. Hyper Voice: Gardevoir
and Sylveon
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 334-394 (120.1 - 141.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Gardevoir beat by Jolly M-Mence)
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 223-264 (80.2 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Intimidate saves from Jolly)
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 334-394 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (Max HP doesnt help much)
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 52 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 258-304 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (VGC sylveon tanking Jolly Mence Return)
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 52 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 331-391 (96.2 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (Merits of Ada Double Edge)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 458-540 (137.9 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (No saving Mence)
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 410-486 (123.4 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Weaker but no hope still)
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 410-486 (104 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Max HP isnt enough still)
-HV Matchup Summary: The Hyper Voice match up essentially boils down to who is faster as Gardevoir can outspeed in Trick Room and Tailwind, while Sylveon needs a large amount of speed to outspeed under Tailwind but can easily outspeed in Trick Room. Mence can easily kill both Gardevoir and Sylveon if it outspeeds but one thing to consider is the presence of Intimidate which will change damage calcs so prior damage or dragon dance boosts are important to get kills. Hyper Voice users with redirection support in their partners can also do a number to destroying Salamence.
2. Rock Slide: Landorus-T
and Terrakion
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 116-138 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Thats a real cute kitty cat)
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 78-92 (21.1 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (Free sub on intimidated Lando-T)
252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 146-174 (43.9 - 52.4%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO (Not even able to guaranteed 2HKO)
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 190-226 (57.2 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Requires Life Orb to 2HKO)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 127-151 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Intimidate ruins 2HKO)
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 171-202 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Jolly 2HKO's Lando even with Drop)
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 171-202 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Jolly 2HKO's Terrak even with Drop)
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 258-304 (79.6 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Jolly can kill after 1 Dragon Dance)
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 282-333 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (One LifeOrb Recoil puts it close)
-RS Matchup Summary: This matchup shows that while Lando-T and Terrakion alone cant do much to Mega Mence while Jirachi is active, Mega Mence is able to do a lot back even while being intimidated. Mega Mence is able to freely fire off an attack, setup a dragon dance, or even use a move like Roost to remove its flying typing if it outspeeds which reduces the already pitiful rock damage even further thanks to the base 130 defense stat. Landorus normally run Choice Scarf while Terrakion normally run LifeOrb, FocusSash, or Lum Berry so before a dragon dance the speeds are: Adamant M-Mence < Terrakion < Jolly M-Mence < Lando-T.
3. Diamond Storm: Diancie
and Mega-Diancie
208 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Easy 2HKO from M-Diancie)
-1 208 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 150-176 (45.3 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO (-1 helps but 2HKO is still possible)
208 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 156-186 (47.1 - 56.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO (Potential 2HKO with Diancie before Evo)
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 90-107 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Ada is 3HKO on before Diancie Evo)
252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 124-148 (51.4 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Jolly EQ 2HKO's Diancie before Evo)
+1 252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 246-290 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (+1 Jolly EQ kills Mega Diancie)
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 244-292 (101.2 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Before going Mega the IronHead kills)
-1 0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 216-256 (89.6 - 106.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (-1 Jirachi has chance to Kill M-Diancie)
-DS Matchup Summary: Diancie and Mega Diancie are the new kids on the block as they were not commonly used back at the beginning of ORAS Doubles when Mega Salamence was legal. Mega Mence unfortunately doesnt have a good way to get damage on Diancie bar using Earthquake which requires Jirachi to Protect or Switch out, unless it wants to take damage. Protecting Mence and firing an IronHead is also a good option to kill Diancie. Diancie on the other hand is actually able to get off really consistent damage with Diamond Storm on Mega Mence. In regular form before going mega, Diancie negates the Intimidate with Clear Body so if you want to Intimidate Diancie then you have to wait for it to go Mega and use a safe switch to Mence to Intimidate it.
Beating Mega Mence + Jirachi will require either enough prior damage or getting the proper win conditions before the duo comes together and causes problems.
I am not sure yet if I will have time to do the suspect laddering but I hope I was able to contribute to the discussion about the Jirachi + Mega Mence Duo Matchup for both anyone who hasn't seen it in action or didn't have a full picture of it. Enjoy my massive wall of text and Calc grinding. Good luck laddering people!!! :]
oh yeah thundurus is a hell of a lot better in this meta and mega mawile approaches viable (though i'd probably use knock off over sucker punch so jirachi doesn't just str8 fuck you), also sylv/abomasnow are way better, though both need redirection support, since they can hit mence with ohko spread
also jirachi is spectacular and amoonguss is worse duh
oh yeah thundurus is a hell of a lot better in this meta and mega mawile approaches viable (though i'd probably use knock off over sucker punch so jirachi doesn't just str8 fuck you), also sylv/abomasnow are way better, though both need redirection support, since they can hit mence with ohko spread
also jirachi is spectacular and amoonguss is worse duh
Mawile really shouldn't be dropping Sucker Punch; if anything it should be dropping Iron Head, considering the only things it hits aren't really known for their physical bulk. I used Play Rough / Knock Off / Sucker Punch Mawile a few times (granted it was pre-ORAS) and it worked really well.
Helpful hint: don't try to Draco Meteor a Mence with your Hydreigon until you know it isn't mixed
Disappointed. Mence deserved a retest but now was not the time.
I find it unlikely it will be any more manageable than it was before.
Note to people: use GOOD sets, not just 252/252 DD. I remember Mizu used a SubTect set and some others used sets with Roost. These were quite difficult to handle.
Also a reminder that Hyper Voice is not a check when Mence outruns and OHKOs. You need both Sylveon and a FM user.
I don't see why we are even re-testing this monstrosity of a pokemon. I think the meta is fairly balanced right now and allows for a good amount of creativity in teambuilding. Mence just fucks all of that up and centralizes the entire meta around itself. That forces people to dedicate the majority of their team to stopping Mence with halfway checks like scarf Hydreigon and scarf Genesect which are just beaten by redirection+Mence. If Jirachi is on the field its a 50/50 on whether or not Mega-Diancie can beat Mence. Also Mega-Gardevoir, and Mega-Abamasnow are not counters, they die to a neutral return. Pls don't unban ;_;
Ok well I got reqs, I know there will be an official alt confirmation thread later, but just gonna post them here to make absolutely sure I don't have to get them again, lol. I'll post my thoughts on mega salamence later, gonna sleep now :]
I've just tried to do a few battles and I think that Bulky Salamence + support is too much centralizing for the tier, so if I have time to get reqs I will vote to keep it in DUbers. It can smash a whole team with Follow Me and Rage Powder support, and there are lots of other ways to ease its sweep. Jirachi + Salamence, as aforementioned, is a great core to ladder.
I've just tried to do a few battles and I think that Bulky Salamence + support is too much centralizing for the tier, so if I have time to get reqs I will vote to keep it in DUbers. It can smash a whole team with Follow Me and Rage Powder support, and there are lots of other ways to ease its sweep. Jirachi + Salamence, as aforementioned, is a great core to ladder.
So i haven't really been playing doubles lately and i didn't play in the mence meta at all but after getting reqs and faced mence in ~40 games i can say that this thing is def broken and overcentralizing and when used by a player who knows what he's doing it's pretty unstoppable. I don't really get why they're retesting it because, even if diancie is more common, rachi+mence still beats it and it's just so fat on the physical side+has a bunch of viable sets (subroost, special, offensive dd, fat dd etc). You basically need 2 mons just to stop this thing, and even if you do, it's likely your team is gonna be weakened to the point where something else just cleans up. It's just so overwhelming and centralizing it makes the meta boring to play as it's just a "who's gonna stop the opponent's mence better" competition which can't be healthy at all. Ban pls
i dont get how you worry it will take over the ladder since untill top 19 you get shit like snorlax, most of the players on the ladder are terrible enough. you should probably ask if this core is broken. obviosly it isnt. your only weapon vs steels is eq, then you have to switch rachi, since they can protect on your protect etc. yes i agree there is only a few mons that can take the core on by itself. but this is doubles. you can use two mons to beat the opposing core. look at terrakion shaymin. how many mons can songehandly take them on? i think the jirachi mance argumnet is kinda dumb.
