I mean you can say this about a lot of suspect tests on smogon. Our previous Jirachi test could have been on Rachi + follow me. The OU test of Greninja could have been on Greninja + protean. There was a pretty big debate over banning Dynamic punch in PU and it came down to "Is the move broken on every user of the move, if not then the move isn't the problem, the pokemon is" which makes Azumarill the suspect and not Belly Drum.
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np: Doubles OU Stage 5 - Little Bunny Foo Foo | Gravity + Sleep Ban will Allow Spore!
- Thread starter Idyll
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Seems like pretty heavily flawed logic but I guess I'll drop it if you're just gonna keep saying "well this is how it's been done"
We ban the whole Pokemon instead of parts of it because that's what is simple. Banning only parts of a Pokemon in order to balance only adds unnecessary subjectivity to our tiering system. It also opens up a can of worms; if we open up the precedent, then we'd have to deal with other stuff like "Mega Mence without DD?" and the like. <- le example
Belly Drum is also only really "broken" on Azumarill, and not on other stuff like XZard or Hariyama or Marill or whatever. Suspecting just Azumarill brings no substantial collateral damage. If BD was actually broken on everything that gets it, it'd be considered, but it's obviously not. This isn't like Dark Void where it's pretty stupid on anything that gets it (ppl would run Scarf Smearg i promise lol).
This isn't the place for this talk anyway, this policy's already been set a long time. You can go to Policy Review if you want.
Belly Drum is also only really "broken" on Azumarill, and not on other stuff like XZard or Hariyama or Marill or whatever. Suspecting just Azumarill brings no substantial collateral damage. If BD was actually broken on everything that gets it, it'd be considered, but it's obviously not. This isn't like Dark Void where it's pretty stupid on anything that gets it (ppl would run Scarf Smearg i promise lol).
This isn't the place for this talk anyway, this policy's already been set a long time. You can go to Policy Review if you want.
My Trick Room Life Orb Azu though...
After Mence, Azu will be the second 'mon to be banned not because it's too good on it's own but because of Jirachis presence.
You can easily beat Azu on it's own, Azu + Amoo is not that tricky to beat either and full Azu setup will only work against certain matchups, is prone to misstakes and hard to pull off. Unless you got Jirachi. Against Azu Amoo it's often enough to throw some Goggles on something being able to touch Azu (which is not exactly uncommon) or simply capitalize on them being so incredibly slow (+ Amoo being passive af) and not play like an idiot.
Thing with Jirachi compared to Amoo is, most good mons have a way to seriously hurt the latter with an attack that'd also hurt Azu, while Jirachi simply doesn't care about those. Kanga, Gardevoir, Lati@s, Sylveon to an extent, Cresselia, Amoonguss, Diancie, Ludicolo, Hoopa, Kyurem, Venusaur + all the mons you could slap Goggles on (Aegi, Rotom, Thundy etc), just to name the most important ones. Same goes for other redirectors btw.
Regarding Mence it's the exact same problem: Mence itself is good but definitely not broken. It interacts nicely with Kanga and Gardevoir, checks some of the very common threats rn (I'd imagine Mence balances the usage of Volcanion and Heatran) but isn't untouchable whatsoever, it can easily be checked defensively (Cresselia, Cune, Rotom, Thundy, Aegislash, Mawile) and offensively (TR, Diancie, fast Ice attacks, fairy Hyper Voice, Rain, Deoxys, Darkrai). Except when there's a Rachi next to it. Oh it also tanks a +6 Aqua Jet and deals heavy damage in return.
Azu is just a mediocre mon overall. Don't ban it, ban the real reason why it's so good. After that, unban Mence. It solves nearly every problem this meta has.
You can easily beat Azu on it's own, Azu + Amoo is not that tricky to beat either and full Azu setup will only work against certain matchups, is prone to misstakes and hard to pull off. Unless you got Jirachi. Against Azu Amoo it's often enough to throw some Goggles on something being able to touch Azu (which is not exactly uncommon) or simply capitalize on them being so incredibly slow (+ Amoo being passive af) and not play like an idiot.
Thing with Jirachi compared to Amoo is, most good mons have a way to seriously hurt the latter with an attack that'd also hurt Azu, while Jirachi simply doesn't care about those. Kanga, Gardevoir, Lati@s, Sylveon to an extent, Cresselia, Amoonguss, Diancie, Ludicolo, Hoopa, Kyurem, Venusaur + all the mons you could slap Goggles on (Aegi, Rotom, Thundy etc), just to name the most important ones. Same goes for other redirectors btw.
Regarding Mence it's the exact same problem: Mence itself is good but definitely not broken. It interacts nicely with Kanga and Gardevoir, checks some of the very common threats rn (I'd imagine Mence balances the usage of Volcanion and Heatran) but isn't untouchable whatsoever, it can easily be checked defensively (Cresselia, Cune, Rotom, Thundy, Aegislash, Mawile) and offensively (TR, Diancie, fast Ice attacks, fairy Hyper Voice, Rain, Deoxys, Darkrai). Except when there's a Rachi next to it. Oh it also tanks a +6 Aqua Jet and deals heavy damage in return.
Azu is just a mediocre mon overall. Don't ban it, ban the real reason why it's so good. After that, unban Mence. It solves nearly every problem this meta has.
You know we literally suspected Jirachi like 2-3 months ago right?
I think it's dumb to consider how a pokemon operates on its own in a doubles environment when, you know, the whole point is sending two pokemon out at once.
It's also strange to me how people think Rachi is the sole saving grace of Azu. Azu is definitely still threat even without the wishmaker at its side.
It's also strange to me how people think Rachi is the sole saving grace of Azu. Azu is definitely still threat even without the wishmaker at its side.
Where exactly did I say it's not a threat anymore? I said it's easy to handle as long as it's not next to Jirachi. I then told you a dozen mons to handle the combination of Azu + Amoonguss on their own. If you want the real Doubles feeling, just imagine there'd be whatever Pokemon you like next to one of my examples.
Alright, I'll throw in my 2 cents here.
Fought a total of 4 Azumarill in the suspect in 32 games, won against all four. I had trouble against florist's version, but won luckily in the end. I used my Suicune Team to ladder, and did well etc...
Now, onto the topic. Should Azumarill be banned? From the perspective of a VGC player, Azumarill can be deadly if its allowed to set up, but loses to its natural typing disadvantage - Grass. An Amoonguss or Breloom or even a Virizion can easily beat this Jet Bunny easily. Rotom-Water, common in VGC formats, can also make quick works of this Pokemon. Thanks to the doubles nature of the format, Azumarill can only take down one of your Pokemon; Your partner is free to attack and knock out the bunny. We see from this Azumarill on its own isn't much of a threat, as your opponent losses resources trying to set the bunny up. In VGC, Amoongus and Raichi are common partners used to set the bunny up with a Belly Drum. Any Pokemon with safety goggles or spread moves can easily stop this combo.
Coming to Doubles OU, we got one major change. People don't use Raichu or Amoonguss anymore... They use the best redirector in the game: Jirachi. Thanks to its Steel Typing and Access to follow me, Grass Type Pokemon no longer kills Azumarill while it sets up. Afraid of spore from Amoonguss? Safety Goggles to the rescue. The Core is indeed weak to Sun teams or pure spread moves, but you got no guarantee they should lead AzuRachi all the times. The 6 v 6 nature of this format makes leading against the core quite difficult. As I have learned, one should mostly focus on getting rid of Jirachi before they fight Azumarill. Multiple Fake Out pressure, Quick Guard, Haze all stops this core right where it is. Sun is its greatest weakness.
My Thoughts? Azumarill on its own serves little threat, but when it partners with someone who perfectly covers its weakness, like Jirachi, it becomes deadly. Even a x4 Azumarill on the field can be taken down once Jirachi is beat. But if you allow the core to move, IF this core sets up and gains momentum, it is extremely difficult to stop the rampage of the mad bunny. Not many people can stop this archetype, and if you lead wrong, you are toast (Like I should be when I fought florist).
My verdict? I think Azumarill should be banned, not because of its own power, but because of what it is capable of when it is paired up with the likes of Jirachi. or atleast in Doubles OU, Azumarill should be banned.
GX Out, May Mew Mew be with you.
Fought a total of 4 Azumarill in the suspect in 32 games, won against all four. I had trouble against florist's version, but won luckily in the end. I used my Suicune Team to ladder, and did well etc...
Now, onto the topic. Should Azumarill be banned? From the perspective of a VGC player, Azumarill can be deadly if its allowed to set up, but loses to its natural typing disadvantage - Grass. An Amoonguss or Breloom or even a Virizion can easily beat this Jet Bunny easily. Rotom-Water, common in VGC formats, can also make quick works of this Pokemon. Thanks to the doubles nature of the format, Azumarill can only take down one of your Pokemon; Your partner is free to attack and knock out the bunny. We see from this Azumarill on its own isn't much of a threat, as your opponent losses resources trying to set the bunny up. In VGC, Amoongus and Raichi are common partners used to set the bunny up with a Belly Drum. Any Pokemon with safety goggles or spread moves can easily stop this combo.
Coming to Doubles OU, we got one major change. People don't use Raichu or Amoonguss anymore... They use the best redirector in the game: Jirachi. Thanks to its Steel Typing and Access to follow me, Grass Type Pokemon no longer kills Azumarill while it sets up. Afraid of spore from Amoonguss? Safety Goggles to the rescue. The Core is indeed weak to Sun teams or pure spread moves, but you got no guarantee they should lead AzuRachi all the times. The 6 v 6 nature of this format makes leading against the core quite difficult. As I have learned, one should mostly focus on getting rid of Jirachi before they fight Azumarill. Multiple Fake Out pressure, Quick Guard, Haze all stops this core right where it is. Sun is its greatest weakness.
My Thoughts? Azumarill on its own serves little threat, but when it partners with someone who perfectly covers its weakness, like Jirachi, it becomes deadly. Even a x4 Azumarill on the field can be taken down once Jirachi is beat. But if you allow the core to move, IF this core sets up and gains momentum, it is extremely difficult to stop the rampage of the mad bunny. Not many people can stop this archetype, and if you lead wrong, you are toast (Like I should be when I fought florist).
My verdict? I think Azumarill should be banned, not because of its own power, but because of what it is capable of when it is paired up with the likes of Jirachi. or atleast in Doubles OU, Azumarill should be banned.
GX Out, May Mew Mew be with you.
I fucking love all the azu isn't broken but rachi + azu is broken and yet you all decided not to ban rachi? LMAOOOOOOO. Will make reqs soon with standard bunnies like I always have. Shoutouts to all the people who still lose to azu despite having 4+ counters to it. Will post actual thoughts then.
This is just becoming another mence rofl
This is just becoming another mence rofl
stopped making shitposts to say leave my boy Azu alone it aint done nothin' blame Jirachi. I find it absolutely ludicrous that Rachi didn't get banned despite it being the reason Azu is being suspected. Think about it this way, if Rachi wasn't around, would we really be saying Azu was broken? Now, there's absolutely zero way i can possibly match Dawg's post about Azu being a threat even when not on the field (it should be noted that leading and bding turn one or two with Azu is suicidal in 6v6) however it just sucks that you can't attack it with pretty much anything if it has a Follow Me-er. If you had the threat of it coming in and bding within two turns but not having a redirector as good as Rachi, it'd be really easy to deal with. I understand this is word vomit, so I'm just gonna summarize it in a single haiku
nah jk its more like azu is a lot less threatening when it has more checks which Jirachi eliminates the ability to do. Not sure which one is more banworthy but the two of em fuck this game
anyways nobody rly cares about my legit opinions on this meta (and frankly i dont either) so imma stick to shitposting again
dont ban my nigga
azumarill done nothing
wrong to this meta
azumarill done nothing
wrong to this meta
nah jk its more like azu is a lot less threatening when it has more checks which Jirachi eliminates the ability to do. Not sure which one is more banworthy but the two of em fuck this game
anyways nobody rly cares about my legit opinions on this meta (and frankly i dont either) so imma stick to shitposting again
"Jirachi is the only reason Azu is broken lul"
Azu on Bunny Rampage aka one of the most successful tour/ladder teams in XY didn't have a Jirachi, it relied on 1 turn where you were out of position to stop the set up and once it got going support from double fake out, transform, and rage powder was overwhelming. So obviously that team isn't as dominant anymore because it had exploitable flaws(rain check sash Landorus lol) and the meta adapted/changed to handle it. But these new Azu teams(Azu, Jirachi,Kang, Lando, Breloom, Thundurus, Heatran, Volcanion, Hydreigon etc.) any mix of those guys don't have many flaws if any that can be taken advantage of like weaknesses to common archetypes or a specific mon. So you have to beat these teams with near perfect playand to quote my idol and role model Hannah Montana "Nobody's Perfect! I gotta work it! Again and again 'til I get it right Nobody's Perfect! You live and you learn it! And if I mess it up sometimes... Nobody's perfect." Azu was the main culprit back in XY and now in ORAS, no one is asking for a Kangaskhan suspect, Jirachi wasn't used on the original version and besides we suspected it several months ago and I don't think much has changed since then.
Azu on Bunny Rampage aka one of the most successful tour/ladder teams in XY didn't have a Jirachi, it relied on 1 turn where you were out of position to stop the set up and once it got going support from double fake out, transform, and rage powder was overwhelming. So obviously that team isn't as dominant anymore because it had exploitable flaws(rain check sash Landorus lol) and the meta adapted/changed to handle it. But these new Azu teams(Azu, Jirachi,Kang, Lando, Breloom, Thundurus, Heatran, Volcanion, Hydreigon etc.) any mix of those guys don't have many flaws if any that can be taken advantage of like weaknesses to common archetypes or a specific mon. So you have to beat these teams with near perfect play
I'm not 100% in favor of a ban but I'm leaning toward it so I'll answer :p I think Kangaskhan has a lot more counter play to stop it from setting up and handle it once it has with or without redirection. You can actually prevent/discourage Kang from setting up by going into [insert ghost pokemon here] or by just having common Rocky Helmet pokes like Ferro or Amoonguss. You can switch in common intimidate mons(Scrafty, Lando, Gyarados) into a +2 Kang although it's better if you do it before it sets up, but they all get crushed by +6 Azu(and can be set up on). Unlike Azu Kang's priority move isn't stab and doesn't kill everything so faster mons can actually revenge it after the Jirachi, Amoonguss, Clefairy etc. goes down. Kangaskahn also don't usually carry protect while Azumarill do so once they set up they can protect and go into the appropriate support mon or something that beats the Virizion, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W etc. who are preventing Azu from tearing holes in the opponents team. Lastly +6 Azu crushes like every spread mon I can think of that threatens Jirachi lol.
There has not been much, if any, discussion about what cores are effective against azu + Jirachi.
CharY + lando prevents that core from getting going. And that's such a common thing. Sun in general improves the matchup. Gastrodon forces azu to knock off allowing you to take out either Jirachi or azu depending on your other mon and the correct predictions. Also I feel haze Amoongus has it's merits being that it has room for that move as protect/sludge bomb/foul play are not required.
Setting up subs obviously helps deal with the azu+Jirachi as well as long as you have spread moved. Like I did here with sub Heatran.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-421551945
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-388129148
And I hope any one that doesn't have extensive experience vs azu votes abstain instead of basing your vote simply on whose post you agree with on this thread
CharY + lando prevents that core from getting going. And that's such a common thing. Sun in general improves the matchup. Gastrodon forces azu to knock off allowing you to take out either Jirachi or azu depending on your other mon and the correct predictions. Also I feel haze Amoongus has it's merits being that it has room for that move as protect/sludge bomb/foul play are not required.
Setting up subs obviously helps deal with the azu+Jirachi as well as long as you have spread moved. Like I did here with sub Heatran.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-421551945
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-388129148
And I hope any one that doesn't have extensive experience vs azu votes abstain instead of basing your vote simply on whose post you agree with on this thread
Also I feel like a suspect testing session should be set up for anyone who wants to fight people experienced with azu. Not a tour just an time that people could agree to fight with and against azu and figure out the strategies to use when fighting against it and with it.
Way better than ladder imo
Way better than ladder imo
i aint building my team to beat azu man
Edit: also bunny rampage was meta defining but it wasnt nearly as hard to beat by sole technicality than azu rachi teams are, as proven by the playerbases ability to actually adapt to it. What the fuck are we doing to adapt to azu rachi? Haze? Sacking a mon just to get rid of azus defensive partner? Now again i can be leaned both ways (suspect-wise) but i just think its stupidasshit that we dont think azurachi is far deadlier and just harder to play than azu amoonguss, and is a lot more unhealthy. again interpret it as a ban statement or a no ban lets get rid of fucking jirachi statement as you wish.
Like lets be fucking fair ppl are rollin out the vgc 16 techs used to deal with xerneas
Edit: also bunny rampage was meta defining but it wasnt nearly as hard to beat by sole technicality than azu rachi teams are, as proven by the playerbases ability to actually adapt to it. What the fuck are we doing to adapt to azu rachi? Haze? Sacking a mon just to get rid of azus defensive partner? Now again i can be leaned both ways (suspect-wise) but i just think its stupidasshit that we dont think azurachi is far deadlier and just harder to play than azu amoonguss, and is a lot more unhealthy. again interpret it as a ban statement or a no ban lets get rid of fucking jirachi statement as you wish.
Like lets be fucking fair ppl are rollin out the vgc 16 techs used to deal with xerneas
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Yeah so what? The attitude is like I don't want to adjust the way I play for better azu+Jirachi match up. And then throw around the world unhealthy way too much to justify the argument.
You can complain the same way that Lando is unhealthy because it's almost required to have the best possible Kang check.
Lando being on 75% of teams is acceptable by you people.
But you can't accept haze on Amoongus for some reason. And most of you don't fuck with gastrodon. None of you would ever even consider roar to switch out azu on BD turn. Instead of looking for ways to improve your match up I hear crying about unhealthy. Swagger was unhealthy, follow me + setup sweeper is something you should expect and be ready for
I understand where you're coming from here but you're really underselling azu. Yes it still has its 'checks' but even what you listed doesn't consistently deal with azu. You're only roaring out azu if you position perfectly to always have roar user in vs +0 azu. Gastro gets ohkod and outsped by play rough or knock off so with redirection that isnt even helping much. Like in general if something threatening pops up in the meta you should adapt to it but Azu is so restrictive on building and playing that it's unhealthy to keep it around any longer.
edit: haze is dope tho
No dude, that "attitude" is "I dont wanna lose to teams other than azu rachi." You cant just ask to face azurachi like you do so you can beat it with ur ct, so if i solely used teama that ctes azu rachi chances are im gonna lose to something other than that
I cant believe that I'm arguing pro ban azumarill rn despite being anti ban but thats just what happens when you post man
CorruptedOmega
Banned deucer.
I got reqs last night so I'd like to pitch in my two cents.
Last suspect I voted to ban Jirachi. Do I still stand by that decision? Absolutely. However, since this is a democracy, our fellow peers voted too and they (pretty heavily) outnumbered us. Thus Jiarchi stayed in DOU. But now we still have a problem, namely the combination of Azumarill and Jiarchi. Whether you're pro Azu ban or against it, Azu+Jirachi is undeniably a problem. Something has to give. Even though I would rather have had Jirachi banned, it didn't happen. So are we just going to sit here and complain about how things should've been and do nothing to address the problem at hand? Because that's the mindset of "Azu's not the problem, Jirachi is, so I'm not going to vote ban". For the sake of a healthier metagame, I'll be voting to ban. I hope you will too.
e: and there's no way a Jirachi retest will happen since we have just months until Sun and Moon come out so stop complaining about it here
Last suspect I voted to ban Jirachi. Do I still stand by that decision? Absolutely. However, since this is a democracy, our fellow peers voted too and they (pretty heavily) outnumbered us. Thus Jiarchi stayed in DOU. But now we still have a problem, namely the combination of Azumarill and Jiarchi. Whether you're pro Azu ban or against it, Azu+Jirachi is undeniably a problem. Something has to give. Even though I would rather have had Jirachi banned, it didn't happen. So are we just going to sit here and complain about how things should've been and do nothing to address the problem at hand? Because that's the mindset of "Azu's not the problem, Jirachi is, so I'm not going to vote ban". For the sake of a healthier metagame, I'll be voting to ban. I hope you will too.
e: and there's no way a Jirachi retest will happen since we have just months until Sun and Moon come out so stop complaining about it here
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Why are we talking about more suspect tests when a new generation is released in december. New pokemon means new adjustments so that some pokemon dont need suspect testing.
CorruptedOmega hit the nail on the head with his post.
I want it to be extremely clear that considering how close we are to sun/moon, people shouldnt be expecting a Jirachi re-suspect.
Just like CorruptedOmega said, if you believe Azumarill / Jirachi is an issue, then dont vote No Ban just because you want to sit and twiddle your thumbs waiting for us to resuspect Jirachi. Consequently if you dont think there are issues with that duo, think critically on how Azumarill interacts with other partners as well as opposing teams throughout the tier to better form a opinion on where you stand.
Regardless, Pokemon in doubles should be evaluated for their individual qualities as well as how they pair with partners in the tier. I personally think Azu is strong and can setup even with Jirachi helping it each game, but others may have different opinions on that.
Also I dont want the discussion to be diverted by comments along the lines "this wouldnt have been an issue if this suspect or this suspect went another way". I dont wanna keep hearing about the Mence and Jirachi suspects while the Azumarill suspect is going on. Lets all focus on the suspect on hand.
I do (somewhat) agree that the "azu wouldn't be a problem without jirachi" posts are annoying, but isn't there some truth to them? I've been thinking about it over the last couple days, and I ended up regretting my No Ban vote during the Jirachi suspect. Whether you like it or not, it's hard to deny that Jirachi is a big (read: the biggest) reason Azumarill is such a problem. Azumarill obviously doesn't need Jirachi to function, but there's a reason that the vast majority of Azumarill that you see are next to a Jirachi.
If we're going to talk about leaving the tier in the best condition possible as we leave ORAS and enter into the Sun and Moon era, I think you have to be mindful of what you're banning this close to the end, since anything that happens now is probably going to be permanent. Do you want to leave the meta in a state that best represents the way it operated in its prime? Leaving Jirachi and Azumarill alone is obviously the right play in that case. Do you want to hyper-focus on the present and deal with the tier as it is without regard for the future? Then banning Azumarill sounds more reasonable, but I think this is a pretty narrow-minded outlook. Do you want to leave it in the healthiest state possible? This is a much more grey area as different people will have different opinions. Personally, I would say that banning Jirachi, leaving Azumarill, and unbanning Salamencite would be the optimal state of the metagame, which is why I mentioned that I regret voting No Ban on Jirachi. Not that my one vote would have changed the result, but I do think the metagame has the potential to be more healthy without Jirachi. I clearly don't know the technicalities of suspect tests based on my previous posts in this thread, so I have no idea how reasonable that last option I mentioned would even be. However, I do think that suspecting and banning with the final state of the metagame in mind is the smartest and most responsible option.
Basically TLDR: in a perfect world I think the best option for the final state of ORAS Doubles would be one without Jirachi but with Azumarill and Salamencite. I have no idea how realistic that is so go ahead and ignore me if I'm spouting complete bullshit, but I can't help but think that other people agree and we're running out of time. If I could get some clarification on just how stupid I'm being re: possibility of other tests before SuMo from someone in charge that'd be cool since that would probably affect my vote in this suspect.
also just wanted to say that i pretty much agree 100% with what lohgock said in his post further up the page, regardless of what i might have said during the jirachi suspect. i was dumb then ok
If we're going to talk about leaving the tier in the best condition possible as we leave ORAS and enter into the Sun and Moon era, I think you have to be mindful of what you're banning this close to the end, since anything that happens now is probably going to be permanent. Do you want to leave the meta in a state that best represents the way it operated in its prime? Leaving Jirachi and Azumarill alone is obviously the right play in that case. Do you want to hyper-focus on the present and deal with the tier as it is without regard for the future? Then banning Azumarill sounds more reasonable, but I think this is a pretty narrow-minded outlook. Do you want to leave it in the healthiest state possible? This is a much more grey area as different people will have different opinions. Personally, I would say that banning Jirachi, leaving Azumarill, and unbanning Salamencite would be the optimal state of the metagame, which is why I mentioned that I regret voting No Ban on Jirachi. Not that my one vote would have changed the result, but I do think the metagame has the potential to be more healthy without Jirachi. I clearly don't know the technicalities of suspect tests based on my previous posts in this thread, so I have no idea how reasonable that last option I mentioned would even be. However, I do think that suspecting and banning with the final state of the metagame in mind is the smartest and most responsible option.
Basically TLDR: in a perfect world I think the best option for the final state of ORAS Doubles would be one without Jirachi but with Azumarill and Salamencite. I have no idea how realistic that is so go ahead and ignore me if I'm spouting complete bullshit, but I can't help but think that other people agree and we're running out of time. If I could get some clarification on just how stupid I'm being re: possibility of other tests before SuMo from someone in charge that'd be cool since that would probably affect my vote in this suspect.
also just wanted to say that i pretty much agree 100% with what lohgock said in his post further up the page, regardless of what i might have said during the jirachi suspect. i was dumb then ok
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I disagree heavily with this premise. The onus is on you (those proposing a change to sq) to prove that Azu is a problem in the current meta, whether that be in combination with Jirachi or not. You certainly cannot start your post with this as an underlying accepted assumption, or we should just get rid of the suspect ladder and the suspect thread and just ban it.
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The main issue I take with pro-ban is that you've got two mons that are pretty much consistently top 6 usage, LandoT and Heatran, and these threats are like beyond Azu setup-bait, but you're trying to say Azu is an oppressive threat... Why are the two threats that Azu consistently beats extremely well still really high usage even though Azu is "banworthy"? These two facts don't add up.
Like if you really think Azumarill is an oppressive ban-worthy threat why are you not using that new mon released a couple months ago that literally beats the core that everyone is saying is broken? There are ways to adapt to an Azu meta.
Also idrc if you're going to say "people have to run haze Volcanion, Checkmater, Azu is so opressive" because that contributes literally nothing to the discussion at hand and quite frankly I don't really care what your mother is running. If anything Haze Volcanion exists as proof that there are innovative ways of accounting for Azu in teambuilding. It would be a much different story if Haze Volcanion was standard, or even somewhere close to 10% usage, but it's not. Don't know why we're using teambuilding creativity as a point against Azu.
I've seen countless examples and been in countless games where Azu did nothing, setup and wasn't able to cash in enough momentum, or ended up heavily skewing team-building into some kind of weakness or difficulty finding switchins.
To add to that I'd argue that Azu in itself promotes very skillful play, which should be the main focus of our suspecting process.
I've had some very exciting and intense games both using and against Azu where I have to think like 4 turns in advance, ask myself "can I lose Aegis here and then be able to clear this Azu with my next switchin? Can I afford to double-target to guarantee that I get this Azu kill after it just protected or do I have to risk protecting one of my mons because I won't be able to win otherwise? If I do that which is is my opp more likely to target? What is their thought process going into this turn?" Azu in itself promotes very skillful play, and while it might be frustrating to end up having your own Hydreigon+Heatran out while your opp whips out Azu+Kangaskhan or something you should be able to both recover from said situation and also reflect on why you were in that situation in the first place. Maybe if you predict the Fake Out right you can recover properly by switching into a Jirachi on that slot, yada yada. There's always counterplay and options for recovery, even when you find yourself in shitty situations. The game certainly isn't over when Azu gets to setup. There's pressure on both sides, on Azu's opp to recover, and on Azu to play positionally and avoid being punished, while trying to cash in on Azu as much as they can.
As far as archetypes or whatnot go, Azu isn't really an issue for Rain or Sun in my experience, while Full Trick Room isn't really a thing atm (but it is very cool on TR).
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