np: Doubles Stage 2.5 - Go to Sleep (Suspect Discussion)

[youngjake93]

I always supported a proper suspect test with the removal of Mega Kanga to see if it improves the metagame. I personally have been having a lot less trouble with it the more I play the meta and don't find it broken. Sitrus berry turns a lot of the jaw-dropping ohkos into 2hkos and makes things like Hitmontop pretty reliable checks. Power Up Punch is pretty darn weak even on Tyranitar. Using Protect, status or speed control, Fake Out, etc you can play around it pretty easily with prediction since it has to single-target. However, it kind of is a Pokemon that at least pulls its own weight in every match. At the very least you still have bulky fast Fake Out support even if it is burnt and -2 speed lol.

 

[Bughouse]

I abstained last time because I felt Kanga merited a proper test before I was willing to banish it.

That said, freeing Sleep Clause only made Kanga better now that Fake Out + Sleep is so consistently threatening.

 

[termi]

The mighty BLOOD TOTEM might've convinced me about Kangaskhan being broken in a battle I had with him recently, where his combination of M-Kangaskhan and Kyurem-B completely donked me (Fake Out + two mons with an extraordinary amount of power + great bulk = not a fun time :<). Thing is, it can provide its Fake Out in tandem with the huge power it's got to support so many Pokemon successfully while also being to kill a mon or two in the process, which is pretty ridiculous. Sure, Intimidate and WoW can severely cripple it, but the same goes for pretty much any physical attacker in the meta so maybe that argument isn't quite as valid as it seemed to be at first (in addition, even after Intimidate Kangaskhan still hits frighteningly hard). The metagame diversity thing kinda backfired, since if we're completely honest, while she does diversify the pool of Fake Out users, the lack of opporunity cost by running her (who says no to all that power plus all that bulk plus good speed plus priority plus one of the most important utility moves in the meta?) makes it so easy to just smack her on your team and leave other megas like Mawile, Garchomp, Venusaur etc. behind. I guess she really isn't that much of a healthy influence after all (thank u based prophet TOTEM :o) so she should probably leave.

mfw mega khan

#suffering

what the fuck happened to muh animu

 

[AuraRayquaza]

i dont know if this is the right place to do it but i think zekrom could be a potential uber.

firstly. it has 90 base speed. leaving it outsped by latios, kyu b, lando t, mega kanga, hydreigon, the list goes on. in a speed dominated meta, zekrom has the worst speed possible: too fast for tr but way to slow to keep up with the actual threats.

it has a small movepool. all zekrom has is draco meteor, bolt strike, dragon claw and focus blast (not at all reliable) as attacking options, leaving it beaten by lando t and mega garde as well as ferro and mega kanga without focus blast. all of these moves are single target attacks too, thus leaving zekrom to attack from its partner. not to mention zekroms attack stat is lower than kyu bs, and dragon claw from that was never destroying lives.

so what are your thoughts? this is probably going to get a lot of 'gira-o' bashing. but it seems beatable.

 

[youngjake93]

i dont know if this is the right place to do it but i think zekrom could be a potential uber.

firstly. it has 90 base speed. leaving it outsped by latios, kyu b, lando t, mega kanga, hydreigon, the list goes on. in a speed dominated meta, zekrom has the worst speed possible: too fast for tr but way to slow to keep up with the actual threats.

it has a small movepool. all zekrom has is draco meteor, bolt strike, dragon claw and focus blast (not at all reliable) as attacking options, leaving it beaten by lando t and mega garde as well as ferro and mega kanga without focus blast. all of these moves are single target attacks too, thus leaving zekrom to attack from its partner. not to mention zekroms attack stat is lower than kyu bs, and dragon claw from that was never destroying lives.

so what are your thoughts? this is probably going to get a lot of 'gira-o' bashing. but it seems beatable.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 274-324 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

That's Outrage, not Dragon Claw. Let's compare to some of the most powerful reliable physical attacks you'll regularly see(moves that don't lock you in for multiple turns and pick a random target).
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 177-211 (58.2 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(I gave it a +10 bp boost to match Play Rough)

Landorus-T is one of the few things that can happily switch into Bolt Strike and yet:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 262-309 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not to say I'm not open to checking it out as a possibility. We looked at a lot of other ubers in the minitour. But Bolt Strike strong and also ignores Volt Absorb, Motor Drive and Lightning Rod.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

i personally think choice band would not be the optimal item on zekrom, mainly because its speed means it dies to latios and other powerful dragon types/ground types. i would use scarf or life orb on it so it either bypasses its speed issue or can not be cockblocked by any of ferro, ground types or other dragons (electric), or aegislash, tran and fairies (dragon). but both of these reduce its damage by quite a lot


choice scarf
-1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 181-214 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 111-132 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

life orb
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 235-278 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 218-257 (71.7 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO

 

[BlankZero]

I think the big thing here to remember is that KyuB and Zekrom have massive Bulk as well as power, coupled with a great secondary attack stat. The problem here is that KyuB had a weakness in its typing, making it vulnerable to a ton of different types. Zekrom doesn't have all of these issues. In fact, it's only weak to 4 types (dragon, ice, fairy, ground) as opposed to 7+.

 

[Haruno]

Kyube is much worse than zekrom. End of story. Zekrom has a better typing, access to tail wind, actual physical stab moves (bolt strike is strong af) and unlike Kyube can easily bypass it's would be checks (Draco meteor wrecks landoge and bolt strike 2hkos every other intimidate user.). Not to mention krom even has fucking volt switch which is sexy for obvious reasons.

Tl:dr krom would be broken as shit. And Kyube is garb In
comparison

>krom has a better defensive typing
>krom has volt switch
>krom has a 130 bp stab move that 2hkos all Intimidators outside of landoge (which you can run mixed to bypass)
>krom has similar bulk
>krom has zero safe switchins outside of ferrothorn
>tailwind
>isn't forced to run mixed

What does Kyube have over krom?
>base 95 speed lets it outspeed landoge
>stronger dragon moves? Relatively similar power regardless
>stab ice beam (weaker than bolt strike in most scenarios )

God fuck. Krom would easily break the meta.

 

[Bughouse]

You also forgot the part where Kyub often dies to Conkeldurr, Breloom, Scizor, and Talonflame, while Zekrom is neutral to Mach Punch, and resists both Bullet Punch and Brave Bird.

If Zekrom is even attempted to be freed, heads will roll. And it won't be my head. It'll be AuraRay's. Disconnected from his body.

 

[BlankZero]

I would love to hear peoples' thoughts on banning SwagPlay/ParaSwag/ParaFlinch. I feel in a metagame where we value skill over luck, these strategies are far too luck-based, just as Moody, Evasion, etc are. There is precedent here as well, as OU has already banned Prankster Swagger.

Thoughts?

 

[youngjake93]

I would love to hear peoples' thoughts on banning SwagPlay/ParaSwag/ParaFlinch. I feel in a metagame where we value skill over luck, these strategies are far too luck-based, just as Moody, Evasion, etc are. There is precedent here as well, as OU has already banned Prankster Swagger.

Thoughts?

Foul Play against a Swagger boosted Pokemon has a 100% chance of hitting.
Parafusion has a 62.5% chance of working and an 86% chance of working at least once within two turns if you are using it to get up a sub or get at least 1 free hit in, etc.
Similarly, Toge/Rachi/Skymin paraflinch has a 70% chance of working.
These really aren't luck-based when it comes down to you being willing to wait the amount of turns to get a respectable chance at success. It is a strategy to gain momentum, but is found annoying because of the way it is perceived.
I don't really see why it was banned in OU, but even if you accept it is unhealthy in OU, then the argumen still stands that you have much more room to deal with Swagger in Doubles with the 2v2 environment.

 

[Darkmalice]

I think testing swagger would end up coming down to what happened with testing sleep clause. In the end the issue became "was it fun to play" or not, and the choice was a simple matter of preference because obviously the metagame wasn't "broken".
Is swagger broken? of course not. Does it make for a less enjoyable/uncompetitive game? maybe

If we were to suspect test it the ladder would become absolutely horrible with the swagger flooding, but I still would support a test of the move swagger at any rate.

There is no way that Swagger should be banned. Using Swagger on a teammate holding a Lum Berry or Persism Berry is a legit strategy, with Swagger being used offensively against your opponent on the side. The latter part is luck-based but not the main purpose on Swagger and, more importantly, not too hard to deal with.

I'm also against banning SwagPlay/ParaSwag/ParaFlinch. They're all easier to handle in Doubles than with OU, as there are two Pokemon, and I have never felt that they were overwhelming or uncompetitive (well unless you build an entire team around it, but that team would suck). Banning them would hinder Pokemon like Togekiss unfairly. Remember that we unbanned sleep, which is a luck-based move based on the RNG, with a large consensus backing it up.


Regarding Mega Kang, it is the best Pokemon in the metagame in my opinion, and the Pokemon most deserving of a test. I don't want to state my opinion on it yet though. I'll play a bit of the devil's advocate here. Yes it deals a ton of damage but one thing that people forget to mention is that it has no spread moves (well it does but they don't get affected by Parental Bond), so other Pokemon like Mega Zard Y can easily dish out more net-damage in one turn, especially considering that Mega Kang is vulnerable to Intimidate. It's true that Mega Kang still deals a lot of damage to Intimidate users, but what if it hits the Steel-type or Ghost-type switch-in instead, particularly as the Intimidate user switches in for the other ally? And of course, Sucker Punch achieves nothing against a switch. It also has no resists to abuse for switching in, and Ghost-type offensively isn't that common, it's between common and uncommon - plus Mega Kang doesn't fair well against many Ghost-types.

Of course, this completely ignores that Mega Kang, in addition to power, also has great bulk both physically and specially, a hard-hitting Fake Out with decent speed to back it up, Sucker Punch, FuP for sweeping, and good type coverage (take 4MSS into account though). The Intimidate argument also works two ways; it makes Mega Kang's bulk stand out even more. Particularly when the only type hitting Mega Kang super-effective is vulnerable to Intimidate. For example, -1 LO Terrakion cannot OHKO Mega Kang, but after LO recoil, Mega Kang is very likely to OHKO with Drain Punch.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 338-400 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 288-339 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO


Regarding Zekrom, whilst I'm not entirely against suspecting it, I suspect it would be broken. Who cares if Landorus-T checks it when LO Bolt Strike + Dragon Claw hits so much of the metagame hard even at -1 Atk and it has the bulk to stand up to a lot. It also only really needs Bolt Strike, Dragon Claw and Protect to function on non-Choiced sets, so that other move could easily be something like Tailwind, which can also screw Landorus-T switch-ins with your partner, Outrage for intense power, HP Ice or Draco Meteor for Landorus-T, or even Imprison to screw over opposing Zekrom. And unlike Mega Kang, it has resists to give it switch-ins backed up with even better bulk and power, and the ability to change its item.

Also in case you think that Zekrom can be easily burnt:
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 320-376 (105.2 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[realiti]

there is NO way zekrom is coming down. it's too powerful, outrage/bolt strike/draco meteor/ protect is all it needs, or it could go banded. so many things can go wrong, i think we should leave it the way it is. good suggestion tho, aura.
on swagger/flinches, they are easier to handle in doubles due to those all being 1 target moves. the other pokemon can easily strike back, because stuff like liepard and klefki aren't classified as "bulky"(togekiss is tho). And like Darkmalice said, unfair on togekiss. Swagger also helps with attack issues if you want to be gimmicky, like Swagger+Persim Berry.

On Mega Kanga.... wow this thing is overcentralizing. It's just so powerful, and so bulky. 125 Atk with a CB boost? 105/100/100 bulk? Access to fake out, sucker punch, powerful returns, ice punch, drain punch, crunch, and more? I'm all in for banning this thing. However, there are some ways to beating it. One way is just crippling it with burns(if the pokemon can actually survive), another is to use a bulky wall which can actually do damage. There are also creative strategies to beating it, like switching into rocky helmet ferro on a fake out or return + the partner attacking(many people fall for this). However, these force you to actually run these pokemon, thus losing offensive pressure that might be needed to break down mega kanga and the partner who can aid mega kanga in its rampage. This can also cause pokemon like Kyuruem-B to get s free sub and wreck havoc. Also, Darkmalice stated that it had no spread moves. This is a minor problem, as you can take out the threat first to mega kanga, and kanga's counters are once again, taken advantage of sometimes by getting a free sub because most of the time, you don't want to risk taking multiple attacks from kanga AND a pokemon behind a sub(ouch!). Another thing that i mentioned once about mega kanga is its bulk. 105/100/100 is very solid, better than some defensive pokemon, like amoongus. it's not a glass connon by any means, capable of taking many hits with ease.

Mega Kanga has a lot going for it, and I'll be interested what people think will happen to this thing.

 

[Layell]

I've picked up Doubles in the last two days, I've mainly done VGC/battlespot and modified one of my old teams from there, I'm not top of the ladder or anything but:

-Lack of Sleep Clause makes Amoonguss a basic full stop TR counter, your TR teams basically needs a counter for Amoonguss at the start of the match, and then at any point where Amoonguss wants to come out. With Regenerator enjoy dealing with it until he can no longer switch. I'm thinking flame orb Conk with Ice Punch is a basic requirement on all TR teams cause of this damn shroom. TR is obnoxious though so I don't mind how badly Amoonguss shuts it down.

-Mkhan vs Mkhan is basically the worst opening matchup, am I gonna speed tie a Fake Out, can my partner and I survive a PUP, will I Sucker Punch or he, does he have some obscure shit Hammer Arm? The worst matchup by far.

-I hated the weather wars, but this time I don't feel that unending sense of dread every time I face a weather team. Ninetales doesn't actually seem to have its niche too with that 8 turn sun + hypnosis sometimes being the thing that stops me from stalling out sun teams completely.

 

[Mizuhime]

Hammer arm isn't obscure at all.

 

[realiti]

I've picked up Doubles in the last two days, I've mainly done VGC/battlespot and modified one of my old teams from there, I'm not top of the ladder or anything but:

-Lack of Sleep Clause makes Amoonguss a basic full stop TR counter, your TR teams basically needs a counter for Amoonguss at the start of the match, and then at any point where Amoonguss wants to come out. With Regenerator enjoy dealing with it until he can no longer switch. I'm thinking flame orb Conk with Ice Punch is a basic requirement on all TR teams cause of this damn shroom. TR is obnoxious though so I don't mind how badly Amoonguss shuts it down.

-Mkhan vs Mkhan is basically the worst opening matchup, am I gonna speed tie a Fake Out, can my partner and I survive a PUP, will I Sucker Punch or he, does he have some obscure shit Hammer Arm? The worst matchup by far.

-I hated the weather wars, but this time I don't feel that unending sense of dread every time I face a weather team. Ninetales doesn't actually seem to have its niche too with that 8 turn sun + hypnosis sometimes being the thing that stops me from stalling out sun teams completely.

-Amoongus can be dealt with. It is not a full stop counter, especially when TR is not up. However, amoonguss, as you said, is annoying. On TR teams, you can have heatran, cresselia, mega abamasnow, chandelure. The problem is, you have to keep them safe, and it's hard to do that, especially with a fast spore. You could run safety goggles, That probably limits your staying time. Can Amoongus be dealt with? Yes, until you start taking major damage from its teammates

-When I see megakhan in team preview I lead with a ghost type and something not megakhan. My thinking process is simple; protect with the non-ghost type pokemon and attack/status with other. When you're forced to lead with megakhan, your scenario occurs, which I hate and try to avoid

-I totally agree with you when I see a weather team other than rain. Ninetales in't even C rank material. Zard Y isn't TOO big of a problem, since scarf lando-t and faster pokemon exists. Just in case I always lead with a pokemon threataning to Zard Y.

Rain teams are a different story. I don't like taking boosted STAB Hydro Pumps, Scalds, and Muddy Waters from pokemon who outspeed my team. Even megakhan can't disrupt them because ludicolo. So how do beat them? Bulky grass types, Prankster TWave, and strong priority, TR. If you don't have those you'll have to find another way to beat them.
Oh, and they can also have megakhan.

 

[Bughouse]

It's not even quite that hard to deal with Amoonguss when using Trick Room. Overcoat Escavalier or Reuniclus do the job well. As for setting Trick Room, you could use a Gourgeist (or Trevenant). Talonflame isn't bad on TR teams. Oh and random Safety Goggles can totally screw Amoonguss too.

That said, yes, an unprepared TR team will lose to Amoonguss quite quickly.

 

[Darkmalice]

I've picked up Doubles in the last two days, I've mainly done VGC/battlespot and modified one of my old teams from there, I'm not top of the ladder or anything but:

-Lack of Sleep Clause makes Amoonguss a basic full stop TR counter, your TR teams basically needs a counter for Amoonguss at the start of the match, and then at any point where Amoonguss wants to come out. With Regenerator enjoy dealing with it until he can no longer switch. I'm thinking flame orb Conk with Ice Punch is a basic requirement on all TR teams cause of this damn shroom. TR is obnoxious though so I don't mind how badly Amoonguss shuts it down.

-Mkhan vs Mkhan is basically the worst opening matchup, am I gonna speed tie a Fake Out, can my partner and I survive a PUP, will I Sucker Punch or he, does he have some obscure shit Hammer Arm? The worst matchup by far.

-I hated the weather wars, but this time I don't feel that unending sense of dread every time I face a weather team. Ninetales doesn't actually seem to have its niche too with that 8 turn sun + hypnosis sometimes being the thing that stops me from stalling out sun teams completely.

Going to add to U-Turn Out's points to give you a better feel of the metagame.

Amoonguss is not a full-stop counter, though it is damn good against full TR. Effective full TR teams have answers to it. Adding to U-turn's list are Pokemon who can ignore Spore like Overcoat Reinuclus, Escavalier, Ferrothorn, and I will remention Abomasnow as it's that good against Amoonguss. Plus something may be using Lum Berry or Chesto Rest in addition to Safety Googles. Your Flame Orb Conk works too, but it is not a necessity. Other Pokemon like Gourgiest and Trevenant don't really mind Amoonguss too.

You should have a rough idea who will win Fake Out on the first turn based off how much speed your Mega Khan set. Most Mega Khan run an Adamant nature, so if you run Jolly you should outspeed. If you have little or no speed on Adamant, you shouldn't outspeed. If you are relying on Mega Khan to handle opposing Mega Khan leads though, you should rework your team.

Also Ninetales isn't really relevant to the metagame. Mega Zard Y is far more common and much better than Ninetales, and is a much bigger tributor to weather wars. Pretty much any team with Ninetales on it would be improved by replacing it with Mega Charizard, even if it means giving up another Mega on your team for it and replacing that with a different Pokemon.

 

[BlankZero]

Something I watched Fangame use recently to great effect is Safety Goggles Cresselia. It beats Amoongus every time, gets up the reliable TR no issues (apart from obvious Taunt/Fake Out), and can do work on its many, many, MANY set options, from Support (HH/skill swap), to Tank (CMRest/Moonlight), to Offensive (Specs/CMRest/EBelt).

 

[Electrolyte]

Adding onto what everyone else said; it's not all that surprising that countering Amoonguss is mecessary, as even if you're immune to its sleep, you still have to be able to beat it since it's a defensive wall.

Also, sometimes beating its Sleep is as simple as attacking it head on before TR with a Psyshock / Psychic from Cress or even using Safeguard on your Cress if you don't want to address it directly.


Ok extreme subject change (or U-Turn I guess) back to Mega K

Yeah Mega Kang is really powerful now and probably broken. Even if it wasn't broken in the last suspect, it is after this one. Sleep + Mega Kang is an obliterating core that's really hard to stop and doesn't take too much thought to play. The simple pair of Mega K + Sleep user as a lead blows through a lot of lack-of-anti-lead meta, as Fake Out can be used to stun any Pokemon that would potentially prevent the Sporer from doing work. Mega K can then proceed to PuP and just Return or Sucker into victory, and with further sleep support becomes increasingly difficult to check.

This was still from back in the suspect days but I was using Mega K + YungPluff and it was such a powerful combination. Sleep can be spread like wildfire, giving Mega K the chance to PuP everything and get to +2 without sustaining damage. From there, sweeping is pretty easy, as few things can avoid Pluff's sleep but also hit Mega K hard AND survive a boosted Sucker Punch.

You can't even check Mega Kang easily either as it's so bulky that not even Terrakion will always OHKO it, not to mention the fact that you could get hit with sleep every time you try. Non-Mach Punch priority barely scratches its tough hide and Sucker Punchers like Bisharp will never outspeed it.

Mega K basically forces the use of Anti-Fake Out leads because it's hard to not get wrecked once it gets rolling. All Mega K needed was setup opportunity to make itself broken, and the removal of Sleep Clause has given it that.

 

[Pocket]

since everybody is already talking about suspects itt, I will simply have the suspect discussion here as well. The council will evaluate the quality of the arguments to decide on the upcoming suspect (the discussion will last for approximately 1 week). General metagame discussion is still encouraged of course (in fact it can help substantiate your suspect discussion).

What exactly are the sleepers that are paired with Kangaskhan? I assume Amoonguss, Breloom, and Jumpluff are what people are referring to specifically (Mega K means no Charizard Y/Chlorosaur or Mega Venusaur). Electroyte highlighted Jumpluff + Kangaskhan core - do you have any replays of this core in action? I've tried that core out myself, but I don't remember thinking the pair being overpowering. Mainly because Jumpluff offers 0 offensive output, and "only" supports Kangaskhan with sleep (whereas something like Amoonguss also has Rage Powder). Gourgeist, Safety Goggles Aegislash/Jirachi, Escavalier, or Ferrothorn can put in a lot of work to this core. Even ScarfTar or Shaymin-S paired with Quick Guard Terrakion can dismantle this core readily imo. It doesn't help that Jumpluff's Sleep Powder is only 82% accurate even after Wide Lens boost. "Fast Sleep" is also not as lethal as "Slow Sleep," since the sleep timer already counts down at the end of the same turn you put something slower to sleep.

 

[youngjake93]

since everybody is already talking about suspects itt, I will simply have the suspect discussion here as well. The council will evaluate the quality of the arguments to decide on the upcoming suspect (the discussion will last for approximately 1 week)

What exactly are the sleepers that are paired with Kangaskhan? I assume Amoonguss, Breloom, and Jumpluff are what people are referring to specifically (Mega K means no Charizard Y/Chlorosaur or Mega Venusaur). Electroyte highlighted Jumpluff + Kangaskhan core - do you have any replays of this core in action? I've tried that core out myself, but I don't remember thinking the pair being overpowering. Mainly because Jumpluff offers 0 offensive output, and "only" supports Kangaskhan with sleep (whereas something like Amoonguss also has Rage Powder). Gourgeist, Safety Goggles Aegislash/Jirachi, Escavalier, or Ferrothorn can put in a lot of work to this core. Even ScarfTar or Shaymin-S paired with Quick Guard Terrakion can dismantle this core readily imo. It doesn't help that Jumpluff's Sleep Powder is only 82% accurate even after Wide Lens boost. "Fast Sleep" is also not as lethal as "Slow Sleep," since the sleep timer already counts down at the end of the same turn you put something slower to sleep.

Fast sleep is much better than slow sleep what... Fast Sleep is basically the same as infinite Fake Out in ideal conditions(not missing, opponent isn't immune to sleep) with the added bonus of them possibly staying out of commission for several more turns.
Anyway, here is my post on the sleep thread with several kanga+pluff replays with over-exaggerated pluff hype. I don't think Fake Out+sleep is too powerful in higher-level play because it can certainly be played around.
Just wondering btw, if Kanga were to be retested would it get a proper Kanga-less ladder test? Not much has changed at all since the last test for it, so I would definitely prefer something else to get checked out if the suspect process stays the same(heck, I would rather see Zekrom tested and I already said I'm kinda anti-krom)

 

[Pocket]

You have a point about fast sleep. Those are also great replays of YUNGPLUFF in action - I like how it was even able to circumvent some anti-sleep measures carried by AuraRayquaza's team. I've been pairing this Jumpluff set with Darkrai. The latter's Bad Dreams is quite awesome for making Sleep more than a temporary immobilizing status, but one that also drains health much akin to posion and burn damage. Darkrai's ability certainly synergizes well with Jumpluff's Leech Seed to force switches and spread sleep around the opponent's team. Darkrai is also nice for removing some problematic Pokemon to Kangaskhan + Jumpluff core (Aegislash/Jirachi @ Safety Goggles, Ferrothorn, and Gourgeist).

If we were to test Kangaskhanite, we would most probably have two ladders (one current and another sans Kangaskhanite).

Zekrom isn't being tested... it's much worse than Kyurem-B, whose a top notch player in current Doubles. Dragon + Electric is also an excellent offensive combination, as observed from Kyurem-B's STAB Dragon Claw/Outrage and non-STAB Fusion Bolt. We are talking about a dragon with a STAB 130 bp Electric move and 150 base Attack x_x. In terms of raw damage output Zekrom's Bolt Strike is virtually on the same level as Kyurem-B's STAB Outrage without any of the nasty side effects o.o

 

[youngjake93]

You have a point about fast sleep. Those are also great replays of YUNGPLUFF in action - I like how it was even able to circumvent some anti-sleep measures carried by AuraRayquaza's team. I've been pairing this Jumpluff set with Darkrai. The latter's Bad Dreams is quite awesome for making Sleep more than a temporary immobilizing status, but one that also drains health much akin to posion and burn damage. Darkrai is also nice for removing some problematic Pokemon to Kangaskhan + Jumpluff core (Aegislash/Jirachi @ Safety Goggles, Ferrothorn, and Gourgeist).

If we were to test Kangaskhanite, we would most probably have two ladders (one current and another sans Kangaskhanite).

Zekrom isn't being tested... it's much worse than Kyurem-B, whose a top notch player in current Doubles. Dragon + Electric is also an excellent offensive combination, as observed from Kyurem-B's STAB Dragon Claw/Outrage and non-STAB Fusion Bolt. We are talking about a dragon with a STAB 130 bp Electric move and 150 base Attack x_x. In terms of raw damage output Zekrom's Bolt Strike is virtually on the same level as Kyurem-B's STAB Outrage without any of the nasty side effects o.o

Ohh that reminds me since this is the metagame discussion thread and you mentioned cube. Pulled from the 1695 stats(top 10% of ladder):
UU
| 77 | Kyurem-Black | 2.00092% |
| 75 | Ludicolo | 2.23682% |
| 74 | Alakazam | 2.26328% | | 79 | Deoxys-Attack | 1.96299% |
| 89 | Genesect | 1.72997% |
| 99 | Hydreigon | 1.47762% |
| 110 | Suicune | 1.24461% |

High-ish UU
| 61 | Ninetales | 2.69556% |

OU
| 12 | Greninja | 9.72389% |
| 28 | Aerodactyl | 5.86905% |
| 35 | Blaziken | 4.83239% |

Also, it's funny you mentioned Darkrai since my tutee was confused why it is a C-ranked threat. I explained the reasoning, but I very well may try using it some more. It definitely has some good things about it.

 

[BlankZero]

Ohh that reminds me since this is the metagame discussion thread and you mentioned cube. Pulled from the 1695 stats(top 10% of ladder):
UU
| 77 | Kyurem-Black | 2.00092% |
| 75 | Ludicolo | 2.23682% |
| 74 | Alakazam | 2.26328% | | 79 | Deoxys-Attack | 1.96299% |
| 89 | Genesect | 1.72997% |
| 99 | Hydreigon | 1.47762% |
| 110 | Suicune | 1.24461% |

High-ish UU
| 61 | Ninetales | 2.69556% |

OU
| 12 | Greninja | 9.72389% |
| 28 | Aerodactyl | 5.86905% |
| 35 | Blaziken | 4.83239% |

Also, it's funny you mentioned Darkrai since my tutee was confused why it is a C-ranked threat. I explained the reasoning, but I very well may try using it some more. It definitely has some good things about it.

This is a great point. I always have my Tutees make a brand new fresh team for our first battle, and this round, mine brought Sub Darkrai with Life Orb and (with a bit if help from a few missed WoWs and Hydro Pumps) managed to win 1-0 with me. We've tweaked the set a bit, but Darkrai is for sure a top player. I wish the ladder actually represented how the meta actually works sometimes.