np: Doubles Stage 2.5 - Go to Sleep (Suspect Discussion)

[BLOOD TOTEM]

I'd like to raise a question to discuss because I'm interested on all of your opinions on this matter.

At what point does centralization become something particularly negative for the metagame and does Mega Kangaskhan reach this point?
First things first, MegaKhan is centralizing in my opinion. A team without a counter or at least two solid checks will be easily stomped by Khan and whatever buddies you chose to run it with. The fact that Khan is centralizing is clear in my mind, however, whether or not it is too centralizing is another issue. To decide this, I feel it is important that we define at what point something puts too much of an impact on the metagame and subsequently a burden on teambuilding.

inb4 someone brings up shit about users not caring about centralization.
In case anyone is thinking about this, allow me to point out that it's a totally different matter in doubles since there are two Pokemon on the field at one time so you essentially need two Pokemon that can handle the threat.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

I didn't vote in the last suspect for Kanga but I can agree with the users who think it is too overpowering for the tier. It really is the perfect pokemon in doubles as far as I am concerned. Kanga brings to every team

• immense power - even intimidate users are 2hkoed, and power up punch means it can become double the threat at any point, very strong priority in sucker punch
  
• utility - strongest fake out in the tier provides excellent support and makes it even harder to check when paired with the right partner, also brings mind games generally in kanga's favour
  
• excellent bulk - 105/100/100 defenses and only one weakness mean that even if you can survive one attack you more than likely can't ohko back with one pokemon

These combine to give a pokemon that I believe is too much for the doubles tier even with the usual double targeting / prolific use of intimidate.
Overall there isn't a reason not to use it and I would go so far as to say you are at a disadvantage if you aren't.

 

[BlankZero]

I have been saying since the first suspect test that this girl is Overcentralizing almost on par with Gen 2 Snorlax, and probably very similar to Genesect in Gen 5. It places a heavy burden upon teambuilders, both in using it and preparing for it. Every team you build, you must ask yourself "Would MegaKanga fit better here?" And "How weak am I to an opposing MegaKanga?" Every single time. And using it yourself doesn't mean you're prepared either. I've seen matches come down to who's MegaKhan was better preserved during the match, or who's Kanga set up first. When it comes down to something like that, you have effectively removed skill from the game.

 

[Roxer]

I may be nitpicking here but did you really just compare banning TTar to banning Kanga because TTar can Pursuit Trap? I'm sorry, but do you even Doubles? That's the single worst argument for/against anything on this page.

noooo not like that, what i meant is like
You cant ban a pokemon because it's best use just fucks you hard

I have been saying since the first suspect test that this girl is Overcentralizing almost on par with Gen 2 Snorlax, and probably very similar to Genesect in Gen 5. It places a heavy burden upon teambuilders, both in using it and preparing for it. Every team you build, you must ask yourself "Would MegaKanga fit better here?" And "How weak am I to an opposing MegaKanga?" Every single time. And using it yourself doesn't mean you're prepared either. I've seen matches come down to who's MegaKhan was better preserved during the match, or who's Kanga set up first. When it comes down to something like that, you have effectively removed skill from the game.

"The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support."

That being said, you can ask the questions ("Would -Pokemon- fit better here?" ; "How weak am I to an opposing -Pokemon-?") to every other S-Rank pokemon.

On the matter of matches coming down to who has the best preserved pokemon, that has happened to me too! But instead of MK, it was Cress, Lando-T and Hitmontop. That means that situation can happen to many pokemon, not only MK. That means you can effectively remove skill from the game with any pokemon. A good example is with Defensive teams VS Defensive teams, that situation will happen almost every battle.
BTW That isnt removing skill from the game, a good player would know which pokemons he needs to preserve and which he can sack off after they do what they were supposed to do, I do that almost every team preview. UNLESS it was by sheer luck that it came down to that, then yes, you did remove skill from the game.

 

[Laga]

Everyone has pretty much said everything there is to say on Mega Kanga, so this is my final argument on the matter:

MK (Mega Kangaskhan) is indeed a very strong pokemon, but he's easily checked or revenge killed by faster pokemon which resist Sucker Punch, Bulky Mons, Intimidate and status, plus a variety of pokemon that can deal with it without fitting on the category above (Aegislash, Rotom-W, Scizor, just to name a few).
Just like any other pokemon, you need to prepare for it, just because your team is extremely weak to something doesnt mean that we should ban it, either your team isnt built well or you dont predict well, thus meaning that your opponent actually deserved the win, that being said, he didnt win because of MK.
If we say that to MK, we should also ban CharY and TTar, since they both can wreck tons of stuff if your team is unprepared for them, yes, kanga has overall more utility in the matter of Fake Out and Sucker Punch, but CharY has spread and strong offensive presence and TTar has an awesome offensive typing and he can Pursuit Trap stuff like Jellicent, Lati@s and Aegislash. We cant ban CharY because he keeps ruining your day by killing Skymin, Gastrodon and a variety of other things that he can kill without a problem, we cant ban TTar because he sweeped you after one or two DDs, we cant ban MK because he just swept you after one PuP, we cant ban Cress because she keeps gving HH to her teamates thus allowing them to rek u while you cant kill her nor stop her, We cant ban TR/Sun/Rain/Sandstorm because it reks ur team without a problem, we cant ban Lando-T because it just sweeped you even when locked into EQ, we cant ban Cradily because you found out that he is the ultimate check to your team. (These are just some things that people on the ladder bitched to me, yes, this dude wanted Lando-T banned because i sweeped him with HH Cress and Lando-T itself) (YES, Cradily is the ultimate counter to my team lol)
MK, like any other S-Rank threat, needs to be checked, it is common knowledge (Atleast should be) that he is an S-Rank threat, and that he needs little to no support to sweep, your careless plays against it (omg gotta kill double target now) and your weak teambuilding skills (Or maybe you're just unlucky to make a decent team that's really weak to it) made you lose, we "CAN'T" ban it because of that.

EDIT: Many of the pokemon that check/counter/wall MK are REALLY versatile, and might only help you instead of making u lose some utility, some good examples are Terrakion and Lando-T, with Terra you'll get Spread and Quick Guard, which is SOOOOOO good on the ladder. With Lando-T you'll get Intimidate and a Scarfer and you might also have a momentum grabber if you make the right plays with U-Turn.
Both of those pokemon can OHKO MK (Lando-T's Superpower wont OHKO bulky tho)

EDIT2: Revenge killing isnt checking nor countering mega kangaskhan, my bad (Thanks ccst :D) He's easily revenge killed.

I just want to point out that with this logic, nothing is broken in Doubles.

And if it was valid logic, we should unban everything, and when someone complains about getting destroyed by mewtwo, then we should say that "we can't ban it just because your team was weak to it"

and if rotom-w checks kangaskhan then politoed checks latios.

 

[BlankZero]

noooo not like that, what i meant is like
You cant ban a pokemon because it's best use just fucks you hard

Are you intentionally posting badly or do you really not know what you're talking about anymore now that your bad argument was picked apart?

I agree you can't ban a Pokemon because your team is weak to it. I literally could not build a team pre bank that didn't have 4-5 fighting weaknesses. The problem is that the entire tier is pretty much 2hko'd by Kanga, whether it be PuP+Sucker Punch/Return/Double Edge, or Drain Punch, or Crunch. And if it gets to +2 somehow, it starts OHKOing everything. When I can win a 2-6 situation just by saving my Kanga til the end of the match, there's something wrong.

I don't remember who said it in one of my games but, "Where there's a Kanga, there's a way."

 

[ccst]

As a Smash/Pokémon player I find it very funny how both Meta Knight and Mega Kangaskhan have the abbreviation "MK" and are broken/over-centralizing the metagame. Look at what happened when Meta Knight was banned during a period in Brawl: we saw a rise of Middle-to-even-Bottom Tier characters in the tournament results and a much more varied metagame overall. People enjoyed Brawl more but when MK did get unbanned from singles the game basically lost all the hype. It might be the same case with Smogon Doubles but I doubt it.

What I'm trying to say is that just because some Pokémon aren't considered broken they're still over-centralizing the metagame and make it boring and less appealing. The suspect test sure was rushed and there are some huge bias towards MKanga: since so many uses her of course people don't wanna ban her. Unfortunately some people fail to realize how OP she really is and ignoring the devastating power she packs when looking at the calcs... But I hope people at least realize that she over-centralizes the metagame to the point that one "counter" isn't enough. And before people are stating I don't use any evidence to back this up just look up the calcs as I said before; I'll let them speak for themselves.

Just like the Top Tiers in Smash they of course have some weaknesses to exploit (okay not Meta Knight really lol) but ridiculously overpowered strengths that are hard to exploit and it's the same with MKanga: sure she has "Intimidate weakness" and "just Will-o-Wisp" her but are we really forgetting her immense and insane power that not even bulky Pokémon can handle?

I'd also be happy if Perish Trap, Mega-Charizard-Y and Shaymin-Sky would get suspect tested/banned but I know this will never happen, but if you want a more diversed metagame that is the use of more defensive Pokémon, banning these wall-breakers would certainly help.

Edit: It's sad but true that some people uses the logic that "if Mega Kanga isn't banned then nothing else should really be" and it can really be dangerous when striving for a healthy metagame.

 

[youngjake93]

I just want to point out that with this logic, nothing is broken in Doubles.

And if it was valid logic, we should unban everything, and when someone complains about getting destroyed by mewtwo, then we should say that "we can't ban it just because your team was weak to it"

edit: and if rotom-w checks kangaskhan then politoed checks latios.

True, you can win against literally any Pokemon in by overpreparing and/or outskilling your opponent.

Also, I want to bring up the fact that supporting Kanga(even though it requires zero support to function) is as simple as adding scarf Lando-T which is arguably (one of)the best mon in the meta. With Lando-T you now have a reliable counter to Fighting attacks that threaten Kanga. You may say "but wait, that's assuming the opponent has no prediction skill whatsoever and will Close Combat an incoming Lando-T." Well, if you want to play that way:
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 338-400 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 234-276 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 140-168 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 188-224 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- 50.4% chance to 2HKO

You can simply switch your partner to Lando-T and KO any of the above threats with absolutely zero prediction required.

But outside of just slapping Lando-T on the team, Fighting is a really easy weakness to play around in this meta. With so many options for intimidaters or resists including Togekiss, Amoonguss, Hitmontop, Cresselia and more which have no problem with Fighting Pokemon and can actively support Kanga, it is really easy for something you thought was a Kanga check to become a liability.

Will-O-Wisp ghosts are the only things that have a niche of really screwing over Kanga no matter what, but they are decidedly unimpressive in this meta outside of that niche.

 

[BlankZero]

"The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support."

Ya, that's our S Rank description.

We somehow forgot the part from the old OU S Rank description where it stated that Suspects would come from this tier.

I really don't know why people are against banning anything in this tier. It seems to be our defining feature even moreso than having 4 mons out at a time.

 

[Pocket]

Here's my thoughts about Kangaskhan.

Opportunity Cost

There is an opportunity cost for using Kangaskhan. Adding Kangaskhan already makes your team susceptible to Intimidate and Will-O-Wisps, both of which are common elements in Doubles. Randy loved his Kangaskhan, and his teams tended to struggle with Intimidate, Wisps, and Ghost-types, since he liked to stack on other physical sweepers. He stated that he can usually play around things like Intimidate (and he usually does cuz he's gud xD), but it doesn't change the fact that a single Intimidate essentially removes Kangaskhan's Parental Bond boost.

Although most Intimidators (barring Mawile) don't enjoy switching into Kangaskhan's big STAB move, Kangaskhan cannot hit both opponents at the same time. Thus, mons like Landorus-T can swap the place of the partner that isn't being targeted by big mama and effectively nerf Kangaskhan. They can also easily switch into Fake Outs for easy attack nerf on Kangaskhan. With one Intimidate, Kangaskhan now fails to OHKO shit like Charizard and get roasted in the process, etc.

PuP exists to offset Intimidate boosts, but note that this is another opportunity cost of spending a turn doing piss-poor damage. Basically, Kangaskhan needs proper team support if it wants to pull this move off.

Splash Kangaskhan

I dont find myself including Kangaskhan onto many of my teams, because it does not offer any useful resistances, utilities (outside of Fake Out), and complementary offense (Normal-type offers 0 super-effective coverage). If I need a Fake Out mon, I just as easily add Hitmontop, which also offers Wide Guard, Intimidate, resistance to Rock Slide, etc. If I want a Pokemon that complements well with Kingdra, I will be selecting mons like Thundurus-T, which can wear down Water-types, Grass-types, Tyranitar, and Charizard with Thunder(bolt), HP Flying, and Focus Blast, while Kingdra wipes out Dragon- and Ground-types for Thundurus-T, not Mega Mom. The times I find myself adding Kangaskhan is when I am building certain offensive teams that appreciate Kangaskhan's Fake Out for a free turn of set up.

Sure you can slap Kangaskhan on a team with alright results, but the team may have benefited more from Charizard Y's powerful spread move that burns through Amoonguss and melts Steel-types; Mawile's Intimidate, resistances and Dragon immunity, and raw power; Manectric's Speed, Electric STAB, and Intimidate; Gyarados's Intimidate, resistances, and Dragon Dance, Water STAB, & Moldbreaker EQ; Garchomp or Heracross's raw wallbreaking capabilities and nifty resistances; Mega Venusaur's awesome tanking capabilities plus Sleep spam, etc. It's not as no-brainer as some of you make it out. Kangaskhan is NOT the unconditional best Mega Mon in Doubles.

Overbearing Mama

Mega Kangaskhan does not stifle my teambuilding process. I think this is the case, because it offers little utility outside of Fake Out, lacks resistances, and lacks a powerful spread move. I find myself paying more attention to Landorus-T (EQ, Intimidate, useful resistances), Togekiss and Amoonguss (Follow Me/Rage Powder and other support options such as Tailwind/Spore), Charizard Y (Heat Wave spam, solid special bulk), and hell Abomasnow (underappreciated threat that tanks most Water- and Electric-types while spamming powerful Blizzard; a terror in TR), before Mega Kangaskhan.

Unlike Bisharp I can cripple Kangaskhan with Intimidate, so I can deal with it like most non-Defiant physical sweepers. I am an offensive player, so I usually have no trouble beating down on Big Mama. The lack of Protect or Substitute on Kangaskhan gives me the security that my attack directed at Kanga's slot will go unblocked, which is a predictable factor that makes Kangaskhan manageable in Doubles for me. Bulky teams can make skillful use of attack / speed control options such as Intimidate, Wisp, Icy Wind, Thunder Wave, etc to cripple Kangaskhan.

The only thing that Kangaskhan has actively restricted in usage is probably frail Sucker Punch weak mons, such as Latios and Deoxys-A. There are plenty of solid options in Doubles to deal with Kangaskhan; I never felt I was making my team worse by adding "anti-mom" measures to my team, such as Fighting-, Ghost-, and Steel-types, all of which are great typing to include in a team with ample of options anyway.

What Kanga does best

I do admit that there are situations where Kangaskhan may perform exceedingly well. For one, Kangaskhan that foregoes Fake Out utility for its PuP sweeping capabilities pairs exceedingly well with Togekiss. Give Kangaskhan Protect or an extra coverage move over Fake Out, and it can rip holes with Togekiss's Follow Me and speed control support. The key here is to quickly eliminate/disable Togekiss, use your own Follow Me user (Jirachi!), and/or spam powerful Spread moves.

Another thing that Kangaskhan does well, is provide free set-up opportunities for certain threats. Many users have used Kangaskhan's Fake Out support to successfully set up Belly Drum with Azumarill or throw a Substitute with Kyurem-B, Heatran, or Jumpluff xP. This strategy isn't flawless, though. Quick Guard from Keldeo, Terrakion, or Talonflame undermines this. Having two Pokemon that can wipe Kangaskhan or Kangaskhan's partner also puts the Kangaskhan user in a bind, because she can only flinch one mon with Fake Out.

These two aspects alone may warrant suspect-testing Kangaskhan. However whether these cases will prove as evidence for Kangaskhan's banishment is dubious atm.

 

[Roxer]

Are you intentionally posting badly or do you really not know what you're talking about anymore now that your bad argument was picked apart?

I agree you can't ban a Pokemon because your team is weak to it. I literally could not build a team pre bank that didn't have 4-5 fighting weaknesses. The problem is that the entire tier is pretty much 2hko'd by Kanga, whether it be PuP+Sucker Punch/Return/Double Edge, or Drain Punch, or Crunch. And if it gets to +2 somehow, it starts OHKOing everything. When I can win a 2-6 situation just by saving my Kanga til the end of the match, there's something wrong.

I don't remember who said it in one of my games but, "Where there's a Kanga, there's a way."

Very good point, very good point indeed. I cant think of a mon that MK doesnt 2HKO, after I saw your post, I started thinking and got into calcs, unless you run some crazy spread, pretty much the entire tier gets 2HKOed by it, because of that, I tried to argument with myself and I couldnt win VS Banning Kanga when your argument appeared on my head, the only things I managed to think of was double intimidate, WoW, Sleep Abuse, Rain + Genesect-Douse or the obvious revenge kill.
I've been doing my best to think of something to counter your argument while i wrote this but i couldnt. I wont try to fight on an argument i know i cant win, i dont want to look like a pidgeon playing chess, even tho i losed, i wont shit on the board and walk away like i won. I now see, Kanga is indeed overcentralizing.

So yes, I put some tought in this and i'm sure now, i'm going to switch sides. If i cant win, might aswell help others do so.

Dont see me as an hypocrite, i seriously cant think of an counter argument.

 

[Mizuhime]

I have been saying since the first suspect test that this girl is Overcentralizing almost on par with Gen 2 Snorlax, and probably very similar to Genesect in Gen 5. It places a heavy burden upon teambuilders, both in using it and preparing for it. Every team you build, you must ask yourself "Would MegaKanga fit better here?" And "How weak am I to an opposing MegaKanga?" Every single time. And using it yourself doesn't mean you're prepared either. I've seen matches come down to who's MegaKhan was better preserved during the match, or who's Kanga set up first. When it comes down to something like that, you have effectively removed skill from the game.

Kanga is nothing like GSC OU Snorlax, Snorlax had 90% Usage and was used on literally every team. Kanga's usage is no where near that high and it's no where near that good. Snorlax could run multiple viable sets (curse lax, BD lax, Lovely Kiss +3, Thorlax etc..) and the meta is based on having a team that is able to team with Snorlax. Kanga is by no means that large of a problem (pun somewhat intended) or versatile really if you have a hard time with kanga just build better teams..


If you still think Kanga is similar to gsc snorlax, go play gsc for the first time in your life

pwne edit: if i see any pokemon get compared to gsc lax for overcentralization ever again itt that post is getting deleted

 

[Roxer]

I just want to point out that with this logic, nothing is broken in Doubles.

And if it was valid logic, we should unban everything, and when someone complains about getting destroyed by mewtwo, then we should say that "we can't ban it just because your team was weak to it"

and if rotom-w checks kangaskhan then politoed checks latios.

If mewtwo was allowed so would be Lugia and Xerneas (2HKOed by Psystrike coming from MM2Y, can then setup Geo and kill)
If we unbanned everything, the tier would be Doubles Ubers.
In a situation where Mewtwo is allowed, one should not be using regular pokemon you know.

 

[youngjake93]

Opportunity Cost

There is an opportunity cost for using Kangaskhan. Adding Kangaskhan already makes your team susceptible to Intimidate and Will-O-Wisps, both of which are common elements in Doubles. Randy loved his Kangaskhan, and his teams tended to struggle with Intimidate, Wisps, and Ghost-types, since he liked to stack on other physical sweepers. He stated that he can usually play around things like Intimidate (and he usually does cuz he's gud xD), but it doesn't change the fact that a single Intimidate essentially removes Kangaskhan's Parental Bond boost. Although most Intimidators (barring Mawile) don't enjoy switching into Kangaskhan's big STAB move, Kangaskhan cannot hit both opponents at the same time. Thus, mons like Landorus-T can swap the place of the partner that isn't being targeted by big mama and effectively nerf Kangaskhan. They can also easily switch into Fake Outs for easy attack nerf on Kangaskhan. With one Intimidate, Kangaskhan now fails to OHKO shit like Charizard and get roasted in the process, etc.

PuP exists to offset Intimidate boosts, but note that this is another opportunity cost of spending a turn doing piss-poor damage. Basically, Kangaskhan needs proper team support if it wants to pull this move off.

This is the kind of argument which made me skeptical of the pro-Kanga side initially. Sure, outskilling your opponent and being well-prepared in general will allow you to beat ANY Pokemon. There is not a single Pokemon that has been banned from a meta that didn't have plenty of examples of people using teams without that Pokemon on it and beating it. There were PLENTY of ways to avoid letting Excadrill, Landorus-I or Genesect beat you in BW OU. One of which was simply to play better and not let them set up. The fact that you can beat a Pokemon doesn't change the fact that they were broken. You literally could unban Mewtwo and people would find plenty of ways to beat it easily. That doesn't mean it is a good idea.

 

[Pocket]

This is the kind of argument which made me skeptical of the pro-Kanga side initially. Sure, outskilling your opponent and being well-prepared in general will allow you to beat ANY Pokemon. There is not a single Pokemon that has been banned from a meta that didn't have plenty of examples of people using teams without that Pokemon on it and beating it. There were PLENTY of ways to avoid letting Excadrill, Landorus-I or Genesect beat you in BW OU. One of which was simply to play better and not let them set up. The fact that you can beat a Pokemon doesn't change the fact that they were broken. You literally could unban Mewtwo and people would find plenty of ways to beat it easily. That doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Except Excadrill, Landorus-I, and Genesect were far more overcentralizing and excessively restricted teambuilding options in BW2 Singles than Kangaskhan in XY Doubles. Excadrill contributed to a metagame centralized by weather, since it was virtually untouchable when Sand Rush is activated (barring Mach Punch/Aqua Jet). Landorus-I was dishing enormous amount of damage with Sheer Force and can eliminate most of its checks and counters with U-turn and Pursuit support. Genesect was a versatile end-game win condition / pivot that drastically shook the metagame when we transitioned from BW -> BW2. The amount of influence that these former suspects had on BW2 singles is much more overbearing than Kangaskhan in XY Doubles. You are exaggerating by comparing Kangaskhan to these suspects. And I even consider Landorus-I to be a borderline 50/50 suspect...

 

[Bughouse]

I said what I think about Mega Kangaskhan when I first nominated it in January. My opinions on it haven't changed too much since then because the metagame hasn't changed too much either. The removal of Sleep Clause does make Fake Out better, but that doesn't disproportionately affect Kangaskhan in any notable way, imo. So I'm just going to repost what I said last time (with added emphasis on the last two lines) :/

If we were to go about this using the traditional requirements that singles metagames used, I would absolutely understand not suspecting anything. Indeed, very little can truly singlehandedly provided too much power or support in the Doubles metagame to become individually broken. So I don't think that's a particularly useful angle to look at things. Just because no single Pokemon has proven to be uncounterable or uncheckable does not mean the metagame is perfectly balanced. Indeed, many of the best methods to check or counter a foe can be played around. As an example, you might choose to rely on Stone Edge to beat Charizard-Y, expecting Wide Guard support, only to instead be facing Rage Powder Amoonguss, wishing you had Rock Slide instead. You may be decently equipped to deal with Heatran, but utterly helpless against one that has been Skill Swapped Levitate (sorry if that's too soon.)​

Doubles is a metagame all about your team's Pokemon supporting one another to overcome your opponent. There's no such thing as singlehandedly winning a match, so relying on a perspective based in singles seems counterintuitive.

A better standard in my opinion is if a Pokemon performs substantially better than its potential replacements given the same amount of support from teammates or if a Pokemon supports its teammates substantially better than any other supporters could. Now, this isn't necessarily grounds for being suspected. It ultimately comes down to a judgment call of when that performance is just too good to ignore.

By this standard, I personally view Kangaskhanite as worthy of being suspected. While not super obviously broken in either regard, Kangaskhanite toes the line on both. Mega Kangaskhan is the best priority user in the tier, boasting both Fake Out (which can even hit Ghosts prior to Mega Evolving) and Sucker Punch off of quite high power. These attributes can be seen as providing deadly team support, such as when it is used as a lead in combination with Deoxys-A. And unlike its competitors in the priority support realm, Mega Kangaskhan is also gifted with hefty bulk after Mega Evolving, along with a way to Swords Dance and actually sweep. Power-Up Punch even enables Mega Kangaskhan to shrug off Intimidates from Landorus-T & co. While it can't sweep the same way it could in OU, Mega Kangaskhan is not truly vulnerable in Doubles either, despite facing two opponents, since it can benefit greatly from Follow Me, among other support moves. For me, the ability to use a single set that simultaneously provides very strong team support while also posing a win-condition threat pushes the boundaries a little too much for my taste. It can be played around, but not easily and not without having a somewhat distorting effect on the metagame.
​

This post was intended as a pro-suspect argument, not a pro-ban one, and it remains so today. I just want to test it to move from theorymon to actual investigation.





EDIT: Also agreeing with Pocket above that centralization arguments are bad and don't particularly apply to Kanga.

 

[youngjake93]

Except Excadrill, Landorus-I, and Genesect were far more overcentralizing and excessively restricted teambuilding options. Excadrill contributed to a metagame centralized by weather, since it was virtually untouchable when Sand Rush is activated. Landorus-I was dishing enormous amount of damage with Sheer Force and can eliminate most of its checks and counters with U-turn and Pursuit support. Genesect was a versatile end-game win condition / pivot that drastically shook the metagame when we transitioned from BW -> BW2. The amount of influence that these former suspect had on BW2 singles is much more overbearing than Kangaskhan in XY Doubles. You are exaggerating by comparing Kangaskhan to these suspects.

Kanga contributed to a metagame centralized by Bulky Offense since it is virtually untouchable after Intimidate support or a PuP boost. Kanga is dishing SUPER ENORMOUS amounts of damage with Parental Bond and can eliminate most of its checks and counters literally by just attacking with its STAB(or by using PuP or Crunch/Sucker Punch). Kanga is a versatile end-game win condition / pivot that drastically shook the metagame when we transitioned from BW2 -> XY.
Looks like I just compared it to the high points of ALL THREE with no problems.

 

[Pocket]

Kangaskhan is not untouchable, because you have two Pokemon on the field that can attack Kangaskhan, and there are plenty of faster Pokemon that are not afraid of Kangaskhan's Sucker Punch. The lack of Protect / Substitute on most Kangaskhan makes it even easier to nail it.

Yes, Kangaskhan dishes enormous amount of damages. That is its main suspect-worthy element. Even then Kangaskhan's damage output can be readily mitigated with Intimidate, Wisp, and Speed control options. Kangaskhan is also susceptible to Follow Me / Rage Powder tactics, because it lacks powerful spread moves.

Yes, Kangaskhan certainly shook the Doubles meta when we transitioned from BW2 -> XY, but not to the same negative restrictive degree as Genesect in BW2 Singles. Kangaskhan's versatility and pivoting pales in comparison to Genesect in BW2 Singles (not that versatility is all that important if a suspect can do one thing extremely well).

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Kangaskhan is not untouchable, because you have two Pokemon on the field that can attack Kangaskhan, and there are plenty of faster Pokemon that are not afraid of Kangaskhan's Sucker Punch. The lack of Protect / Substitute on most Kangaskhan makes it even easier to nail it.

Yes, Kangaskhan dishes enormous amount of damages. That is its main suspect-worthy element. Even then Kangaskhan's damage output can be readily mitigated with Intimidate, Wisp, and Speed control options. Kangaskhan is also susceptible to Follow Me / Rage Powder tactics, because it lacks powerful spread moves.

Yes, Kangaskhan certainly shook the Doubles meta when we transitioned from BW2 -> XY, but not to the same negative restrictive degree as Genesect in BW2 Singles. Kangaskhan's versatility and pivoting pales in comparison to Genesect in BW2 Singles (not that versatility is all that important if a suspect can do one thing extremely well).

A two Pokemon on the field argument works both ways remember.
There are plenty of ways to limit the effect of Intimidate on Kangaskhan, for example, running Kangaskhan alongside Bisharp who gains a damage boost from any Intimidate users switching in.
Pokemon like Klefki can set screens which make Khan really bulky or Safeguard so that it is no longer hindered by burn.
Your own Follow Me support can neuter the effectiveness of 'counters' like Conkeldurr and Terrakion
Skymin can consistently pull flinch bullshit on your ass as you try and take down khan.

 

[youngjake93]

I could run Politoed, Rain Dance anything, Gliscor, Weezing, Air Balloon anything, Breloom, Slowbro(and most bulky waters), Hippo, and some other things to check Excadrill. There were at least as many varied options as there are to deal with Kanga. Also, you have two Pokemon on the field as well it doesn't work just one way. Plus as I pointed out only Terrakion outspeeds and OHKOs Kanga(and fails to do so after Intimidate), so they have Kanga's Return to fear as well unless you magically have two Pokemon with over 100 base speed/priority on the field that threaten Kanga at all times. And yet even then, the double target on Kanga leaves its partner room to do whatever the fuck it wants.

Kanga still has 125 Attack and 102 BP STAB with no drawbacks after Intimidate with its bulk still allowing it to outdmg at -1. Kanga is hardly "susceptible" to Follow Me/Rage Powder when it annihilates every user of it on accident when its Return gets redirected besides Jirachi which isn't that great in this meta. Will-O-Wisp can be dealt with easily with special attackers including even the potential at a Flash Fire boost for your partner. However, there are situations where you can just kill the WoW user before it even gets it off fairly easily.

Kanga is not that versatile, but its pivot capabilities do not pale in comparison. Genesect can spam really fast U-Turns, cool. Kanga can use Fake Out, Sucker Punch, Return or Power-Up Punch as a pivot to force switches/Protects that leave its partner drooling over the opportunities presented.

 

[BlankZero]

How about we just have a suspect test and settle this argument? About half the community is on either side of the line, just like what happened before Sleep Clause testing. Perhaps if we do a true test with seperate ladders (one with and one without Kanga), and actually see what the meta would be like without her, we could stop Theorymonning about it and have some real, definitive data as opposed to our current back and forth.

 

[Roxer]

How about we just have a suspect test and settle this argument? About half the community is on either side of the line, just like what happened before Sleep Clause testing. Perhaps if we do a true test with seperate ladders (one with and one without Kanga), and actually see what the meta would be like without her, we could stop Theorymonning about it and have some real, definitive data as opposed to our current back and forth.

I couldnt agree more, let's do what blank says and settle this, with 2 ladders, one with and one withour Big Mama.
LET'S HAVE A SUSPECT TEST ON MEGA KAGASKHAN.

 

[Braverius]

Okay, I didn't want to get active again, but AM I ACTUALLY SEEING THIS

LET'S HAVE A SUSPECT TEST ON MEGA KAGASKHAN.

I don't know if you've followed VGC at all, but Kangaskhan is actually kind of imba right now, but even then it's still not to the point of unbeatable. I can't even explain how many times I've thought "man, if I had Terrakion / Landorus-T / Jellicent right now I'd be in second heaven." Well, you get to use all three, and they're more than viable in SmogDubs. Those are only three, anyways, there's a plethora of other things that can check mega Kang out there that apparently no one cares to try. I'm sorry, but you might have to move past "sit here and do fucking nothing for 10 turns" Sub Leftovers Heatran + Cresselia for once in your lives.

In all honesty, when I used Kangaskhan in SPL, it was decently underwhelming and wasn't even close to as threatening as things like Landorus-T and Togekiss. There was nothing that appeared to be broken about it, and nothing I could see ever leading it to be even considered suspect testable.

Sleep was an understandable suspect test...this, however, is fucking ridiculous and unwarranted. Get off of your bulky wall sofas and start using some offense, use your minds, use some counters, and beat it if it's an issue for you rather than whining and suspecting. This isn't an issue of imbalance, it's an issue of complacency and maybe a tiny bit of opinion.

I cant think of a mon that MK doesnt 2HKO, after I saw your post, I started thinking and got into calcs, unless you run some crazy spread, pretty much the entire tier gets 2HKOed by it

you should try thinking harder

 

[finally]

I think we have all recognized the relative good benefit-to-cost ratio using mkanga brings. As pointed out by balkans, mkanga offers very much for a team with fake out and its own offensive presence while not being hard to add a team.
I feel however that the argument that one should use mkanga in the majority of situations over other megas may be over-exaggerated. One of the main drawbacks I find with using kanga is its inability to add a defensive backbone to a team with resistances. Perhaps it is just how I teambuild, but I appreciate the multiple resistances and immunities offered by other megas such as mega scizor or mega mawile. Although it is true that kanga has the bulk to switch into attacks, the job of switching in on attacks can be better done by another mega with good bulk (mega chomp for example) who also resists the hit.
I feel like the negative issue of m-kanga's typing has been understated. Although its ghost immunity is nice, it's fighting weakness pops out noticeably since fighting hits 5 things supereffectively. This weakness can make it hard to forme a balanced team if you already have 1 or 2 fighting weaknesses, and is one of the reasons why I will not choose m-kanga as a mega.
An interesting thing about using kanga over other megas is that people have definitive checks/counters for kanga as opposed to other megas. This issue of having your kanga already checked before the battle starts slightly diminishes from kanga's overall effectiveness. This would be as opposed to running the nearly completely unaccounted for mega medicham. The fact that kanga is so popular is a testament to its strength, but also a hindrance in and of itself.
All in all, I do not find kanga to be miles above other megas. And even when I build teams without a certain mega in mind, I still feel like a mega can be added in without the team having to be built around the non-kanga mega. (for example, the other day I was 3 members into a goodstuffs team, and I need a ttar and cress check. So I added mega heracross.) In line with my second statement, I think that teams do not have to be built around a certain non-kanga mega in order to have the mega perform as well as kanga.
I have noticed a large consensus from the PS doubles room of them wanting to ban/suspect kanga. I guess what I'm wondering from people who want to suspect kanga is: What are you guys looking for? Do you want more mega diversity? Do you want to not have to carry counter kanga checks? Are you tired of kanga+amoongus? These are just some starting questions; feel free to explain what you are looking for in a kanga-less environment. :]

 

[Electrolyte]

I've noticed recently that the biggest problem with Kangaskhan could very well be the one-dimensional thinking style that Braverius brought up in his post. Kangaskhan is being pegged as "centralizing" because that's how many players are handling it. It's tough to decentralize a Pokemon that almost everyone uses because they're under the impression that it is the best Mega Pokemon, forever and always, no matter the situation, no matter the specific requirements the team needs fulfilled by the Mega slot. People are mindlessly slapping Mega K onto teams, calling it a day, and them complaining about it being overcentralizing, when they themselves won't even consider other Mega Pokemon that could very well even work much better in the slot. If you only ever use Mega K, you'll only ever see what it can do, and you won't ever realize the power that other Mega Pokemon possess as well, just in different regards. I personally don't even like using Mega Kangaskhan because its role is too general and is never reliable at handling specific targets. Also, as finally correctly pointed out, it offers much less defensive backbone than most other common Mega Pokemon.

Another problem is that people aren't really being creative with how they counter Mega Kangaskhan. There are plenty of checks and counters for it; just scroll through the long list of bulky Pokemon, Intimidators, supportive Ghost-types, offensive Fighting-types, and Will-o-Wispers and find one that fits your team. People are unwilling to deviate from standard offense, which contains barely but a small portion of reliable counters to Mega Kangaskhan. Be creative- there are plenty of viable ways to beat Mega Kangaskhan, as long as you don't restrict yourself to what is standard and regular; if you do so, you will put yourself under the impression that it has no counters.

Mega Kangaskhan is a powerful Pokemon, but if you just reach outside of the list of "popular" Pokemon, you'll discover a wide variety of counters and alternatives alike.