np: Doubles Stage 3 — Hit Me Baby One More Time [Kangaskhanite stays in Doubles]

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Suspect Stage 3 - Kangaskhanite Test Redux


Back by popular demand, it's another test of Kangaskhanite. Up right now is a no-Khanite ladder to see how the metagame is different without Mega Kangaskhan; it lasts two weeks. Following this ladder a normal Doubles ladder will then replace the no-Khanite ladder to see if Kangaskhan truly breaks the metagame. It will last ten days.

Voting Requirements

We changed the reqs yet AGAIN, so here's the new ones: (I promise we'll get these nailed down, COIL is a new system for everyone, sorry).
  • Attain a COIL rating of 2480 or higher
  • (IMPORTANT) Participate in the Metagame and Suspect discussion
Posting Rules

This is the Metagame Discussion Thread. Suspect Discussion Thread will be posted alongside it. Do NOT debate in this thread whether or not Kangaskhanite is broken. Such discussion is only permitted in the Suspect Dicussion Thread. The purpose of this thread:
  • Talk about the various metagame trends you encounter in terms of strategies, cores, or particular threats in this new metagame
  • Note any differences you find between the suspect metagame without Kangaskhanite and the current metagame
  • Explain what Pokemon, core, or tactics most affected by the absence of Kangaskhnite
  • Discuss the implications of removing Kangaskhanite without committing to any particular stance on its tiering
  • Post replays to enhance your discussion point!
  • Post anything about the suspect metagame regardless of its relevance to Kangaskhanite
  • DON'T POST REQS HERE
Important Dates
  • May 21 - No-Kangaskhanite ladder goes down; last day to make reqs / Kangaskhanite ladder goes up
  • May 31 - Kangaskhanite ladder goes down; last day to take reqs screens for both ladders
  • June 3 - THE VOTE
Have fun discussing!
 
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Electrolyte

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M-K is an interesting and unfortunately familiar suspect, but I'm curious to see how this suspect ladder develops. The reason for this is because of the fact that I believe that Kangaskhan is a very general Pokemon. Although it's very powerful, it does not really threaten any one strategy or Pokemon than it does for others. Everything it hurts is pretty much hurt equally by it, be it Hyper Offense checked by basically-STAB Sucker Punch, defense checked by the threat of PuP, or standard checked by an imposing mix of offenses and statistic bulk, every one of them will experience just a little bit of pressure taken off their backs. But it's not as if Mega Kangaskhan has single handedly made any Pokemon or any team style fade into obscurity; oh no, it's quite the contrary, as its versatility makes it at least somewhat viable on all sorts of teams, and simultaneously helps boost diversity as well. However, its metagame effects are widespread as opposed to focused, which is why I believe its absence will not bring about very dynamic team structure changes in the suspect metagame.

Nevertheless, I'm excited to see how the suspect meta develops, both on the ladder and in private IRC challenges :)
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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The song is way too gay, Pwnemon. Who's the gay one here? It would seem to be you. Better choice:

My thoughts on this meta are completely undecided because I don't think powering through the ladder like Mizu and I did today actually tells us all that much. I will say that I saw a good amount of Trick Room as always. I used 3 teams: based Laga team, and two of my own teams you can see me use in replays from rd 4 of seasonals v Lolk. They all seemed to perform roughly equally, which was surprising. I expected my team that is reasonably weak to Kanga to perform better, but at least in this small sample size, it didn't really.
 
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Gonna flesh this out later but my initial thought is that Weather teams are going to be a big thing. I am already seeing quite a few among better players. With Kanga unavailable, more people might start gravitating toward CharY, which means more Rain, which means more Sand which means more Trick Room.
 
I do agree that with no Mega Kangaskhan, other megas become more viable. Charizard Y was already a major threat even when Kanga was there. I am interested to see whether Mega Medicham sees any greater usage in this ladder. Outside of breaking substitutes and sashes and sacrificing bulk, Mega Medicham hits a wee bit harder than Mega Khan. It lends fake out support to a team and do considerable damage, the only downside being it will be easier to revenge kill.

I myself will be trying my rain team for this suspect test but not just to check Char Y. I had used a rain team to get reqs for the sleep clause suspect test too.
 
While the argument that other megas become usable is a relevant point, it certainly isnt to do with m-khan, and i dont think it should be considered as a logical argument for the brokenness or non-brokenness of m-khan, or any mega in particular. from my playing so far, i find the meta enjoyable. i dont find anything overtly broken, and while i feel that a few things definitely centralize the meta a little, it isnt to the point where something is broken. as many people have said, sometimes this is healthy, as it increases the viability of checks etc. im not entirely in agreement with this per se, but for the most part, i feel that it is reasonable logic.
 

You guys still don't have the right song choices.

Let me help imho pls.

Edit: Pwne has no music knowledge whatsoever y/y?
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
hey hey hey nobody is defending britney spears as a musician but the song title was way too perfect to pass up, because it had the double entendre of being kangaskhan-related and test-related, since this is our second time voting on kanga

srks isn't bad but misses that double entendre

blank's is bad, it's like conan the barbarian released his debut album

ANYWAYS, NO POSTS SOLELY ABOUT MUSIC AFTER THIS LINE

-------------------fuck you Pwnemon music is the best - Arcticblast

I've gotten about halfway to my no-kangaskhan reqs so far and i have to say it just isn't being too fun. Kangaskhan is one of the only Pokemon in the Doubles tier that can turn into such a massive threat in one turn that you really have to think multiple turns in advance to maintain your advantage (others are sleep users, sub offensive mons, volcarona imo); with most people just slapping some less threatening Pokemon in kanga's spot instead of crafting teams for the metagame as it is, you can typically just cruise to easy wins on autopilot, only thinking about the turn you're currently on. I'm going to keep playing after I get reqs to see if this impression changes, of course, but as of now that's what I've been seeing. i don't know if this attribute of being a "silent threat" is healthy for the metagame or gives unfair advantage to the one using Kangaskhan; frankly I don't particularly care. What I do know is that it kept games from being stale or winnable on autopilot, which was a feature i greatly enjoyed about Doubles with Kanga, and I'm looking forward to getting that back in two weeks.
 
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Anty

let's drop
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Kanga really helped non-weather offense and it is a place in my team that i cannot fill, it would probably be better to build a new team. But i am really lazy so i just put megamedicham in.
I really like megacham and it is a great sub for kanga, i know it'll never be quite the same at sweeping, but it has fake out, a huge attack stat, and ok coverage. Lack of priority sucks (bullet punch lol) and getting hard countered by aegislash (who uses fire punch) also sucks, but for me it has been filling the same niche kanga gave me; putting enough offensive pressure on the opponent, that they cannot set up trick room (apart from cress) or stats. It will never be the same as kanga, but it is really underated imo and hopefully will get more usage now kanga is gone. It also has the same speed tier as kanga. I know there are cress, skymin, sword, talon etc, but it is amazing and denting slower teams

tl;dr megacham is a nice replacement, not as bulky and no priority though
 

BLOOD TOTEM

braine damaged
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I love how people will say the khanless meta is more / less fun based on whether they want to ban it or not, I'm not gonna bother with that shit and just talk about what I've been seeing.

Weather - More rain, this is cool I like rain. Unfortunatley there is a lack of Agility Ampharos (peace be upon him) but I can overlook this fact. Met a couple people using Suwako on my travels which was cool since I like helping people out with nice spreads. It was fun to face old threats like Swift Swim Kingdra again because it's ages since I've seen that thing. There was also a lot of Douse Drive Genesect floating about. Genesect is a Pokemon I feel was stifled a little by Khan and I've been seeing a lot more of it on the suspect ladder.
There's also a fair bit of sun kicking around but no more than pre suspect if you ask me.

Sleep - Half the shitty teams I spammed onto the ladder were so weak to sleep and, from what I've seen, a lot of my opponents looked hella weak to it to. Perhaps I'll make some nasty Amoonguss team later on and see what's cracking since it looks like sleep is being a little more overlooked now that the hype has died down.

Common threats pre khan - Where did all the Scarf Lando / SubTran go? It was kinda annoying seeing all this variety since a lot of my teams are centralised as hell around threats which just didn't show up. This meant I was forced to build new teams which were inevitably shit because I'm stressed af with real life and henceforth end up losing to shit like Choice Scarf Follow Me Furret which leads me to curling up into the fetal position and begging for someone to rip my uterus out whilst tears streamed down my face.

Just my thoughts and observations~~~

oh btw for anyone who mocks Britney, this was my song choice so fuck you.
 
Some things I've noticed:

Lots more weather: Weather teams are everywhere. Whether it's Rain, Sun, Sand, or Hail, I've seen each at least 2-3 times (Though the first two I've seen probably ~8-10 times). I think with Mega Khan gone, people are starting to realize Mega Charizard Y is one of, if not the best Mega Evolution in the tier. It's powerful, it's decently fast, it can support its team, it's got great coverage... It's got it all. Rain teams tend to be a counter these Sun teams, as if they lack Venusaur, Politoed has quite an easy time coming in on Zard and stopping it cold. Swift Swimmers are still as viable as ever, too. Sand has been an interesting playstyle so far; I've seen Mega Tyranitar, Mega Mawile, and Mega Scizor all being seen, possibly due to the absence of Mega Khan (Surprised no Mega Chomp yet :O). Hail is that "2-3" time seen weather. HailRoom is an ok playstyle, but Talonflame has been and probably always will be running around to fuck it up. Also Shuca/Air Balloon Heatran, as well as Aegislash kinda fucks it up so there's that.

Fake Out: Agreeing with KyleCole here that there Fake Out has been seeing a lot more usage on a lot of different Pokemon. Hitmontop and Scrafty seems to be even more common that they already were, while I've seen shit like Infernape and even Mienshao a few times utilizing Fake Out as well. Overall while I haven't really seen a rise in new Fake Out users, the old ones have been seeing more and more usage from what I've experienced.

Besides that, though, I feel like the ladders remained mainly unchanged. Maybe a few less Intimidate users/Ghost-types, but really nothing noticeable. Overall, it's maybe been a little more boring without Khan... It was a formidable opponent that made you think. Though there is some more diversity to the metagame, which is nice as well. Overall, I don't think I really have a preference if Khan is here or not... both are just as enjoyable to me :)
 
Seeing as this is the metagame thread I might as well share some observations about the Mega Kangaskhan-less meta:

The most common playstyles I've encountered are Sun, Rain, Trick Room, FairySpam, and gimmick. Sun is of course powerful with Mega Charizard Y turning Pokemon like Venusaur and Lilligant into incredibly deadly sweepers. Rain is common, though like TOTEM said, Agility Mega Ampharos is rarely used. I have no idea why, it's an absolute beast under rain with 100% accurate Thunders and incredibly bulk. I've mostly just seen the standard rain sweepers in Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo. Trick Room is an absurdly powerful strategy with the bulky Cresselia being able to set it up consistently throughout a match, and it easily overpowers faster teams. Sylveon + Mega Gardevoir is also common, and for good reason, Hyper Voice spam is such a consistent way of breaking through bulkier Pokemon, and is one of the reasons why Heatran is so popular. I've also encountered two gimmicks. Shedinja with Mimic and and Entrainment mon, who then gives Wonder Guard to an Air Balloon Raikou. I know this strategy wrecked Lasagne at one point, and it's really easy to lose to if you don't play really carefully from the start. TerraCott is also everywhere ;_;. However, the metagame is definitely fun, a nice refreshing break from singles, and a very skill-heavy game.
 
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Regarding this meta, I do agree sun teams are pretty common. Mega-Charizard Y is a beast in the sun. However, I wouldn't say it was hard to counter. I do see Sleep Spam often enough and although annoying (I hate you Breloom), it wasn't too hard to deal with. Definitely see a wide variety of different Mega Pokemon (I think at one point I encountered a Mega Ampharos). I myself have used Fairy Spam with success. Double Pixilate Hyper Voice with Mega-Gardevoir and Sylveon just tears through teams (though definitely not broken due to the prevalence of Steel, Fire, and Venasaur). There were definitely some... unique playstyles. I almost got beaten by a Double Volt Absorb Discharge team. All in all, I really don't see a substantial difference in this metagame as opposed to one with Kanga, so I guess I will just wait until the next stage of the suspect begin.
 

Electrolyte

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I too am noticing a rise in the usage of weather (mainly Rain) but keep in mind that even pre-Kang suspect Rain had already been on the quick rise, and I think now is when it's starting to affect the ladder. Now I think it's just the fact that Kang's previously massive amounts of usage is being divided into the next best Mega Pokemon- like Mega Charizard Y, Mega Ampharos, and Mega Gardevoir. Without it stealing the spotlight, other Mega Pokemon seem to be rising in usage.

Aside from that, there really isn't other notable change I've noticed. Prolly should battle some better people because the ladder is still pretty bad ;_;

One thing I'd like to note is that lack of Mega Kangaskhan is making the ladder really boring. I don't even have to think anymore- I can just autopilot with Rain or spread spam or something like that and reach the top really quickly. Mega Kangaskhan takes the easy out of battling and forces you to think at least. It was a lot more fun when MK was around ~.~
 
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if im totally honest i havent really seen a change in the metagame with a lack of kangaskhanite. the only change is that people are reverting back to hitmontop as a fake outer, because of intimidate, wide guard etc.

Im seeing mega charizard y and mega gardevoir the most now that mega kanga is gone, they just hit so damn hard and cannot be intimidated / burnt making them constantly powerful. ive found that i need to bring a wide guarder to every team otherwise i risk being blasted by a hyper voice or heat wave. while these 2 megas are beatable, they still fill the void left by mega kanga quite well.

i think that as time goes on, we will see a drol in the number of intimidate/WoW pokemon per team. for this ladder many people just used an old pre kanga team (assuming it didnt have langa in it!). but i think there will come a point when they realise that their 2 intimidators and will o wisper are unnecessary and that slot could be used differently. i mean, terrakion and scizor, two prominent physical attackers, do not need -2 attack and burn to stop them.
 
I see weather teams so often in the Kangaless meta. Whether it be Sun, Rain, or Sand, they all have gotten better. Sun doesn't fear the monster that can Fake Out your fast mons and OHKO the sun setter. Rain doesn't fear a strong Sucker Punch on frail pokemon and nothing likes to take Returns. Sand doesn't fear the Drain Punch aimed at TTar or a Sucker Punch on Excadrill. These teams mostly benefit in the Kangaless meta and I want to see more of these teams in the Kanga meta.
 

Blizzard

@ NeverMeltIce
Mega-Kangaskhan is probably the most straightforward mega to use of all, but isnt very easy to fit on teams as much as it seems. Lack of a proper defensive typing, and not exactly having godly bulk, makes it a hindrance on most teams imo. It doesnt have any proper spread moves (as is a problem with many other megas) and that makes it fall prey to predictions. And, as someone said, more predictions=less consistency.

Parental Bond boosted moves are crazy strong, but thankfully, it can attack only one target at a time, which means the other pokemon is free to attack kangaskhan. In come Follow Me/Rage Powder pokemon. Amoonguss and Togekiss are excellent partners to Mega Kangaskhan and are part of reason why kang is so potent in doubles. The amount of support is gets and is able to utilize makes it a very dangerous pokemon. One turn is usually enough for Kangaskhan to set-up and start wrecking things. Sleep Powder, Fake Out, Helping Hand or redirecting moves all work really well as do safeguard and screens/guards. But that hardly makes it a broken pokemon. Proper offensive pressure (in the form of fighting types, spread moves or any strong moves in general), intimidate ( only to an extent), status, protect, opposing fake outs really screw over kang. And a skilled player is sure to find a way to stop it from wreaking havoc, which doesnt take much. Powerful spread moves are quite common and can easily stop kang and its support and force the player to play defensively or lose kanga since it usually does not run protect, also adding the fact it hasnt got much defensive potential, using it against an offensive team is quite difficult (although Sucker Punch alleviates that to an extent, it is mostly prepared for by players).

Talking about preparedness, there's only one set that is imo most effective (and popular), that consisting of Power-Up-Punch, Fake Out, Return/Frustration and Sucker Punch. It can deviate from its movesets by utilizing Drain Punch to increase its longevity and hit steels/rocks, Ice Punch to take care of Landorus and the like, Crunch to beat ghosts, even Fire Punch to beat stuff like Mega Mawile, Scizor or Ferrothorn, etc, but that greatly takes away from its overall effectiveness. So, most of the times, sticking to the original moveset is most beneficial.

Although, one move i've definitely have had success using is Protect. Putting extreme offensive pressure is something kang is brilliant at. That makes it prone to being double-targeted very often, since it does not/cant afford to run protect on most of its movesets. Protect can really screw over any attempt by the opponent to beat it, while allowing your other pokemon to weaken/destroy the opponent's. I usually run Protect over Fake Out since 1) it's a move that sees use only on the first turn it switches in, 2) i do not lose any other coverage and 3) because Fake Out is such an expected move on kang.
 
Mega-Kangaskhan is probably the most straightforward mega to use of all, but isnt very easy to fit on teams as much as it seems. Lack of a proper defensive typing, and not exactly having godly bulk, makes it a hindrance on most teams imo.
I know its "fashionable" at the moment to say that Kangaskhan isn't as good or as over powered as less experienced players seem to think, and while it may be true that Kangaskhan isn't all it's cracked up to be, calling it "a hindrance on most teams" is ridiculous. I'm sure I don't need to repeat the billions of damage calcs that people have done, and while Kanga isn't perfect and certainly has a number of flaws, acting like Kangaskhan is somehow a weak/unviable Pokemon is a less informed opinion than believing it is over-powered.
 
On the note of "not exactly godly bulk" how bulky is godly? Kanga is one of the most bulky pokemon in the tier. It is one of few things that can take a fire blast from zard in sun/psycho boost from deoA/draco meteor from specs latios with ZERO special defense invest. Only so many relevant Pokemon are bulkier and they all have arguably worse defensive typings(Cresselia, Cube, Suicune). And they also do not have parental bond return, fake out, sucker punch or power up punch.

Edit: I still find it funny how people are saying the ladder is boring now because there is no challenge without kanga running around. If kanga was the only thing that made opponents on the ladder a challenge, then I'm incline to think that it leans to the broken side. If you want a real challenge, go on the ubers ladder with NU pokemon. It will be very fun and interesting, and you may even stomp most of the lower ladder, but does that mean ubers would be balanced in NU? No, lol
 
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Darkmalice

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if im totally honest i havent really seen a change in the metagame with a lack of kangaskhanite. the only change is that people are reverting back to hitmontop as a fake outer, because of intimidate, wide guard etc.

Im seeing mega charizard y and mega gardevoir the most now that mega kanga is gone, they just hit so damn hard and cannot be intimidated / burnt making them constantly powerful. ive found that i need to bring a wide guarder to every team otherwise i risk being blasted by a hyper voice or heat wave. while these 2 megas are beatable, they still fill the void left by mega kanga quite well.

i think that as time goes on, we will see a drol in the number of intimidate/WoW pokemon per team. for this ladder many people just used an old pre kanga team (assuming it didnt have langa in it!). but i think there will come a point when they realise that their 2 intimidators and will o wisper are unnecessary and that slot could be used differently. i mean, terrakion and scizor, two prominent physical attackers, do not need -2 attack and burn to stop them.
I've seen more Hitmontop too on the ladder. I've also seen some other Fake Out users being used too, like Sableye. People are being more creative. Sadly one of the new ones I saw was a Fake Out, Last Resort Ambipom.
I see weather teams so often in the Kangaless meta. Whether it be Sun, Rain, or Sand, they all have gotten better. Sun doesn't fear the monster that can Fake Out your fast mons and OHKO the sun setter. Rain doesn't fear a strong Sucker Punch on frail pokemon and nothing likes to take Returns. Sand doesn't fear the Drain Punch aimed at TTar or a Sucker Punch on Excadrill. These teams mostly benefit in the Kangaless meta and I want to see more of these teams in the Kanga meta.
I'm seeing more weather teams too, primarily sun. It seems as if many people are replacing Mega Kang with Mega Zard in order to have another Mega with much raw power. I've seen a few Ttars too, but less rain and hail then before. Not really sure why.

I have also seen quite a lot more TR teams, especially full TR teams, even on the high end of the ladder. I guess these teams have become more successful Kang is decently good against TR with Fake Out to stop TR, and bulk and Sucker Punch to remain useful in TR.

Edit: I still find it funny how people are saying the ladder is boring now because there is no challenge without kanga running around. If kanga was the only thing that made opponents on the ladder a challenge, then I'm incline to think that it leans to the broken side. If you want a real challenge, go on the ubers ladder with NU pokemon. It will be very fun and interesting, and you may even stomp most of the lower ladder, but does that mean ubers would be balanced in NU? No, lol
To be honest, I think the ladder is more boring. I feel the quality of the average player on the ladder has dropped. This could be directly related to Kang's absence, as Mega Kang is very good at punshing poorly prepared teams and gimmick teams through raw power and Fake Out (the latter is especially awesome at stopping gimmicks). Without Kang, these teams have a higher likelihood of success.
 
Without Kangaskhan, I see a lot more other megas taking up its role as the mega of the team. I've seen mega blaziken, mega gardevoir, mega abomasnow, and even mega aerodactyl. In addition to this, I've also noticed a rise in TR teams. I haven't seen many TR teams being utilized before, so it was a bit odd for me, and my team was pretty weak to TR so I got a few losses from that. I don't know if variety and diversity increases for the entire tier, but I can certainly say that a few megas I haven't seen as often before are being more common.
 
The most common Mega I've seen has been Mega Blaziken, with Zard Y being also incredibly common and Mega Gardevoir too, primarily due to their high power allowing them to easily break through teams, especially with Zard and Gard's spammable STABs. Also TerraCott is still really annoying :[. In response to TR, I've seen a few TR teams, certainly not a whole lot though. They can easily devastate faster teams. I do like the variety in Megas, I think it's quite cool.
 

Electrolyte

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Jake, though your arguments do make sense, they apply less in this situation. The reason why the loss of Kang makes the ladder more boring is because of the fact that it was one of the few powerful Pokemon that lower tier players knew and were able to use. That doesn't mean it's broken; it simply means that other Pokemon that would also make the lower half of the tier more competitive are relatively unpopular and therefore do not have as much of an impact.

TRC., are you really seeing Mega Blazikens? I'm interested in what you've seen from them- I have not ever seen a single Mega Blaziken on the ladder, though I have seen a few regular ones in the past. Unfortunately, the prevalence of Intimidate and M-B's weakness to spread attacks does seem to hinder it.
 

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