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np: LC – Freebird

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Aerrow, Mar 3, 2012.

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  1. macle

    macle ribbit
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    It requires skill but not as much as any other play style. All you really have to do is lead with hippo, roar around pokemon until they get enough damage from sr, then bring in drillbur to sweep.

    I just find it really dull.
  2. Heysup

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    You know full well that it isn't that simple. Even if it was, Drilbur can't actually sweep without an ass load of help from wall breakers, spread damage, and residual damage AND elimination of basically all priority.
  3. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    I'd go as far as to say that Mienfoo is one of the biggest problems for sand atm, and with Mienfoo so common that's pretty problematic. Namely, what I'm talking about is that Eviolite Drilbur doesn't always OHKO Mienfoo, even at +2, and Mienfoo should stay consistently healthy. Combine that with Knock Off and now Hippopotas is sad as well. So yeah, teams that pack Mienfoo along with some good Pokemon that prevent Drilbur from switching in (for example, Staryu) do give sand some trouble; it often isn't just as simple as racking up residual damage or sandmagging it up.
  4. Chieliee

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    balloon flash cannon magnemite + sucker punch krow best drilbur counter!

    but yeah sand is fucking EVERYWHERE AND FUCK IT BECAUSE IT SUCKS AND ALMOST COUNTERTEAMS MY TEAM :(
  5. Furai

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    Just use Snover and Staryu to fuck over these teams omg!
  6. spuds4ever

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    Yeah. Snover is pretty under-rated this metagame. I've actually been using snover on a TR team to good success recently. There's so much stuff that is impossible to handle under TR like rhyhorn or cubone at +2. Snover also becomes a lot harder to stop under TR as it means things that would usually miss out a 2hko from blizzard like lileep are now in some hot water when you can now afford to give snover a life orb (and chances are, the sand team isn't carrying anything else that can survive a blizzard or giga drain other than maybe bronzor who is easily worn down).

    On the topic of mienfoo, people really need to stop using him all the time. It's hard to remember playing a game where he wasn't on the other team. Reason is obviously that he can do a lot of roles well and survives like anything because of regenerator. But I mean seriously, Aipom makes a great fake-out lead, but does he get usage? No. Venonat is a fantastic baton passer, but does he get usage? No. There are more than 20 pokemon in LC, but a lot of people seem to have forgotten it.
  7. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Yup, the metagame has centralized around Mienfoo (and, in effect, Larvesta and Ponyta, and, in effect, FWG cores). Really the only way to overcome this is through creative team building, and I think that's actually the reason why sand is so good right now; people aren't preparing for sand as much as general balance as general balance is still more common than sand. I've been using a defensive sand team with threats such as Vullaby and Slowpoke (both extremely underrated) and finding that defensive pivots aren't limited to Mienfoo, Chinchou, and Larvesta.
  8. prem

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    i personally dont think lc is centralized around mienfoo, havent seen EVERY team use a mienfoo this meta, and honestly i just dont think its very good this meta. the only thing i actually fear from a mienfoo at all is fake out because ferroseed cant take the subsequent drain punch. other than that it feels incredibly exploitable, as it runs nearly no speed, is not particularly specially bulky, and is pretty easy to kill. most lo mons just make mienfoo cry. murkrow, houndour, chinchou, staryu, scraggy. they all kill mienfoo pretty quickly while it does not actually kill them back (besides houndour and scraggy, but they both ohko anyway) because its running too much bulk. sand teams are normally an issue for my teams because i run too many life orb mons but even then drilbur is not impossible to kill.

    pokemon variety probably should improve, but there arent that many viable mons. i mean anything with approx 50/50/50 defense can run a quality eviolite set (hell evio litwick is actually pretty good lol) assuming they have good resists and stuff. but overall the only time i would even think about finding something different to use is if there arent too many good counters to things. the reason why people are only using ~20 mons is because these mons counter these same mons incredibly well so why should we go find something new.

    im all for finding new sets and mons so if someone has some random suggestion ill probably make a team with that because i like trying new things and gimmicking and around, even though all my gimmicks turn into quality mons. aipom however is pretty bad, being able to do nothing besides fake out spam, which mienfoo does better with fake turn. venonat actually has some usage because they things they pass are completely different so thats not exactly relevant lol. slowpoke imo is kinda lame because he just gets knocked off and isnt extremely useful at walling key offensive threats (staryu, scraggy, murkrow, chinchou) and loses to many defensive threats also because they can just spam toxic or something. vullaby however is fucking great and should get a lot more usage!
  9. spuds4ever

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    I think just the fact that pokemon variety needs to improve is evidence enough that mienfoo is over-centralized more than is healthy.

    Aipom is not actually bad and makes a good anti-lead (at least it did a couple of rounds ago before gligar and co. came to town) I was running an unexpected set of fake out/u-turn/taunt/flight gem acrobatics and it would consistently kill something every game (usually unsuspecting mienfoo) and still pick off weakened things end-game. Well, venonat hasn't actually got any usage at all in the March usage stats (1200) but I guess it's pretty hard to tell due to the low number of players. Granted they pass different things, but they both have the same purpose, to get a sweeper to sweep easier, and I myself would've thought compoundeyes sleep powder would be more attractive...

    I think a possible solution is just encouraging new playstyles. They don't have to be gimicky, I've never picked up TR in my life and I'm finding myself doing consistently well with it. Just add some imagination in LC. If it's staying as monotonized as this, no wonder our player base is so small, even ubers has more creativity!

    edit: yeah, slowpoke and vullaby are both very good, but as prem said, slowpoke has a bad habit of getting its eviolite knocked off often and has no taunt like vullaby. Vullaby is ridiculously good though if you know its limits.
  10. Good_Luck!

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    OMG! Spuds, that Aipom is GREAT. Outspeeds every fighting-type in LC and it's not weak to Stealth Rock, a great lead AND wall-breaker. I play it in my Sandstorm team and has been a great asset (pulling me from under 1000pts to over 1100 just today). P.S. Yes, I suck at teambuilding -.-

    I think TR is a good antimeta tactic as everything is about speed right now. It's very difficult to stall out its turns without losing a Poke or two. While paralysis is more consistent it's hard to pull off with Chinchou absorbing every Thunderwave.

    On the note of Mienfoo centralizing the game, I think it is in every team because it's versatile but it's not like you HAVE to run a specific pokemon to stop it. As prem said, a lot of Pokes can take it down.

    Indeed. Variety is something that made me start with LC because there are a lot of goodstuffs out there, it's just matter of thinking outside of the box; I've been playing Eviolite Bulbasaur, and, while it's not the bulkiest thing in the world it can hold it's own against Staryu, Ferroseed, Frillish, Chinchou, Mienfoo (who knew!) and other Fighting-types. The thing I love the most about him is his ability to run Knock Off to piss off the opponents and let a sweeper have an easier time.

    Oh, AND I LOOOOOOVE Vullaby! :).
  11. Danilo

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    I've been using LO Knock Off Mienfoo to great success. Knock Off is already one of the best moves in LC and Mienfoo is the arguably the best Knock Off user. Life Orb makes Mienfoo super dangerous as without Eviolite, Mienfoo is 2HKO'ing and OHKO'ing everything not named Misdreavous. Additionally, Mienfoo helps pave the way for things like Scraggy and Timburr to sweep, Knocking Off the Eviolite's of the aforementioned Pokemon and making it easy to sweep
  12. Ray Jay

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    I've definitely enjoyed playing sandstall over the past few days, using the slightly unorthodox core of Ferroseed + Slowpoke + Vullaby alongside the obvious Hippopotas. All three are much better than anticipated, and I've found that basically the easiest way to beat Mienfoo is sponging its hits. People oft point out to me "hey, Slowpoke is an awful Mienfoo counter cuz you get U-turned on," but this does not really matter to me. If I have a Pokemon that can a.) repeatedly take hits from Mienfoo (Regenerator means you may not even have to Slack Off) and b.) Paralyze the switch-in consistently with T-wave due to bulk (so many things hate para) then I believe this is a good Pokemon. So basically, stop badmouthing Slowpoke.

    I've seen some discussion on the brokenness of Murkrow, which seems pretty inane at the moment. SubRoost Krow is demolished by all-but-ubiquitous checks such as Porygon and RestTalk Chinchou, and Life Orb 4 Attack burns itself out rather quickly. I think pretty notable is the fact that Life Orb 4 Attack is an amazing teammate for a ton of sweepers; I know I basically switch my 4th move on Krow to help the team out (stuff like HP Grass means that something like Numel-yes I brought it up-is now going to proceed to wreck the opponent). Still though, it's a sacrificial lamb at best early game; late game it can be more devastating but not if the opponent keeps their checks healthy. Still more curious on your thoughts on Murkrow.

    The other thing I want to hype is Specially Defensive Timburr. It's basically a hard counter to Snover (including bulky varieties), and I've been using it with sand for that reason. It also does well against Scraggy and opposing Drilbur, so it's very similar to Mienfoo in that regard. There are some costs, such as no U-turn or Regenerator, but Mach Punch and Bulk Up help even the scales a bit.
  13. Danilo

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    I don't know who is saying Murkrow is broken but this is simply false. It's checked by Chinchou, Porygon, Hippo, Tirtouga, and other things that I've probably forgotten. So Murkrow isn't some unbeatable monster. Next, Murkrow really isnt overcentralizing. Murkrow is not making the metagame stale like Gligar was, it's just somewhat difficult to deal with.

    Ferroseed is the premier entry hazard user at the moment. It just sets up so easily and beats Staryu. No to mention that Staryu seems to be falling in usage, meaning your hazards are gonna stay for the duration of the match.

    Natu is really excellent in this metagame. No entry hazard user can beat, it's good against stall teams and balanced teams, and it's difficult to take down. Finally, why is Scraggy so low in usage? It's still the most devastating sweeper in the tier, why is it not getting any love?
  14. spuds4ever

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    Ferroseed is and always will be really good as a hazard setter.

    Murkrow isn't broken, it just needs preparation for like everything else in the meta-game. LO 4 attacks is indeed very dangerous but as Ray said, it burns itself out quickly. It does, however have very few reliable checks due to the great coverage it gives and HP grass beating things like hippo and tirtouga. Porygon is still a pretty solid answer, but I think aron has to be the best I've used (and it can still do other stuff too which is cool).

    I've actually been using natu a lot myself (as a TR setter, no less!) and it works very well. Not only does it completely shut down the omnipresent hippopotas, it's really useful instead of having to pack staryu all the time as it beats nearly all hazard setters as sir said bar dwebble (who needs more usage IMO).

    Scraggy is low because he can't get round mienfoo and drilburr with one set, and both of which are on high usage. And also, thankfully, people are discovering more DDers like Axew or dratini.
  15. prem

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    this is the only meta ive found ferro useful, and its mostly because unlike previous metagames where i didnt care if sr is up, this metagame i like them up and hes the only bulky setter that isnt useless otherwise. ive honestly killed so much with ferroseed (ive beaten a missy and a houndour with it lol). natu really fucks it up though which is really gay. if i wasnt running houndour i would probably be running pursuit murkrow

    scraggy needs more love anyway. drillbur honestly should not be a concern of scraggy because even eviolite loses to scraggy, and its not terribly difficult to get aorund mienfoo nowadays, especially when its pretty bad as a whole imo (well fake out is a bitch but i guess its not too hard to get around that with shit like ferroseed). i can understand axew getting more love, but dratini really isnt that good, its not like it can outrage then espeed the turn after. so unless you are relying on dragon rush (lol i did) if it gets locked in to kill a mienfoo its dying the next turn, and mienfoo is always the most expendable memeber of a team. people should however mess with shit like agility chinchou or something else that i cant think of right now because i should be sleeping. they are both really cool sweepers that arent prepared for at all.

    murkrow isnt really broken in any sense. lo 4 attacks is cool but the way ive seen it used is just wrong normally. it is an end game mon i guess, but most people use it at the point where just about anything with 19 speed can sweep. its going to kill itself incredibly quickly so i found the best way around it is to switch aorund your bulky shit (especially if you have slowpoke). porygon is a horrible mon so i wouldnt say to use that as your counter, as much as something like chinchou or just fast mons. ive normally gone around killing it with scarf krow (best scarfer in the metagame). ive also been fucking around with subroost lo super luck krow. subroost lo krow is fucking amazing, and actually beats bronzor chinchou hippo and slowpoke really easily, while it barely beats ferro but you are going to have like 2 hp at the end max. sub is really useful and because you are so fast you can bluff prankster for enough time. its also the biggest fuck you to porygon expecting a prankster only to get super luck and then die!

    anyway use more shit. smoochum is a fun mon that kills so much shit in blizzard, just watch out the for the sucker punches form murkrow (not hard to do with substitute) elekid is still pretty good in this metagame. i understand drilbur is a bitch but its not impossible to get aroud. exeggcute and chikorita are both realyl fun also (though exeggcute is a (BAN ME PLEASE) and i will slap you if you use it). also use TEDDIURSA its fucking cool still

    Ray Jay edit: lol you didn't spell teddiursa right
    prem edit: lol Ray Jay cant read.
  16. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    alright well im just gonna dump everything i've noticed about the metagame into this post!

    So first off, Chinchou has become WAY more useful and annoying to deal with, which I wouldn't be surprised about because Gligar is gone. What has surprised me is that nobody is running a Chinchou check...Dratini can set up on Chinchou so easily and even shed off scald burns. Why aren't more people using it? Dratini also gets ES, which forces Murkrow to predict correctly in order to win against it (LO Dratini probably OHKOs after Stealth Rock anyway).

    I think people can really take advantage of Staryu being the only spinner; set down rocks, and then when Staryu comes out, go to a Dragon-type and dance! There are a lot of unused strategies that can probably kill. Another one of these strategies is Snover in my opinion; Snover decimates sand and Murkrow, which makes it really useful. Plus, it can revenge kill!

    Another mon I think would be useful is Omanyte. Unless Murkrow starts running HP Grass frequently, it can set up pretty easily and sweep. Unless you run a scarfer that has 20 Speed, you can't outspeed it without a tie from a 19 speeder. The only problems really are Croagunk and Timburr, who are easily dealt with by Wynaut.

    I also want to try Foongus, who seems like a cooler version of Shroomish because he can absorb TSpikes and take HJK!
  17. PoJ

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    You must have forgotten about Lileep! I think Lileep is great in this metagame, and I prefer it to Ferroseed because it has access to the reliable Recover (Storm Drain is a plus too!). Being able to hard counter Staryu, Chinchou, and most other bulky waters is great for teammates. Lileep + Larvesta can be really annoying. Lileep also has STAB Ancient Power/HP Rock to deal with Natu, which is nice. As for Drilbur, if Lileep is healthy enough and Drilbur isn't at +2, then it can probably survive an EQ and KO back (or at least come close to that). Ferroseed can probably do the same, though, and it gets Iron Barbs damage. It's also nice when your opponent is running sand and you get a free boost to your SpD. I would only use Ferroseed if I wanted to lay Spikes and SR.

    You've got me interested in Smoochum and Chikorita :o

    Lol.
  18. Aerrow

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    Now that the metagame has stabilized since the Gligar ban, I think it's time to introduce our next set of suspects: Drilbur, Murkrow, and Scraggy. Feel free to post your thoughts about each of the aforementioned, but remember to keep it civil and remember to back up all of your points with calcs, logs, etc!
  19. Charmander

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    I honestly don't like Drilbur; it can be dealt with pretty easily (Snover and such), but it's really centralizing. I know, I know, centralization doesn't conclude brokenness, but when to go out of your way just to check it, it makes teams a lot less diverse and more centralized, which kind of makes the sport less fun. The thing that makes Drilbur kind of annoying is that all its checks can be easily dealth with. Shroomish gets owned by Natu, and Snover is schooled by Wynaut, Larvesta, and Stealth Rock (plus some more rare stuff like Murkrow). A proper sand team can be nearly invincible...

    Scraggy, on another note, is annoying to face, but since Mienfoo is everywhere, it's not really a big deal.

    Why was Murkrow banned, unbanned, and now a suspect again? I feel like these suspect tests are only here to promote activity rather than do what they're supposed to do in balancing the game more.
  20. comatthew6

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    Haven't we already proven that both Scraggy and Murkrow are NOT broken? A bulky Porygon can handle Murkrow and different variants have different checks (non Heat Wave ones lose to Pawniard, Substitute gets beaten by Icicle Spear Shellder, et cetera) and Scraggy, depending on the moveset, loses to different Pokemon. No Hi Jump Kick? Mienfoo beats it. No Zen Headbutt? Hi, meet Croagunk. No Head Smash (does anyone use Head Smash though???)? Shelmet tanks like a bawss.

    I've also used Drilbur extensively enough to know that it is not by any means, broken. Though Snover or Bronzor becomes a bit of a requirement, it should be noted that Lileep only takes 75% from a +2 Eviolite Drilbur, and CAN OHKO back with Energy Ball. Life Orb variants hate priority, though blarajan's variant with Rapid Spin is very threatening and helpful at the same time. Sandstorm teams have become less common despite the fact that Gligar is gone. Drilbur, though despite being quite powerful, is nowhere near broken, as long as your team has SOMETHING (one thing) to beat it.
  21. Charmander

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    Well, like you mentioned, Murkrow and Scraggy each have at least 3 solid variations of a "standard" set. That means you need a Pokemon that can check all of them, which takes some effort. Drilbur can be sidestepped because it does have hard counter, but, like I said, there aren't that many, so it's pretty easy to get rid of them. Whatever happens, I'm sure the metagame will something shift to suit it.
  22. prem

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    ima say that i probably have played the meta the most outa everyone (take that as me boasting or me being a nerd idgaf)

    anyway poj lileep cant leech seed so if its soemthing that doesnt care about lileep using recover ferro is cooler :(

    just saying i really like this metagame its perfectly balanced, and a huge variety of mons can be used if we try.

    Murkrow: the only thing on the list thats even questionable imo. murkrow hits fucking hard i will agree but its not that bad to beat. mixkrow is undeniably its best set (anyone saying subcm is obviously tripping so many balls because it loses to a lot of physical attackers) because of its fucking amazing coverage and ability to outspeed everything. my only problem with it is that it either isnt doing enough or killing itself. with 4mss (drill peck / hp grass / brave bird / sucker punch / heat wave / dark pulse) its gonna get beat by something (rock types/porygon) and if its running lo brave bird (and thus uncounterable) its killing itself in 3 or 4 turns max. subroost is a cool set but honestly its missing a lot of firepower without lo (or you can do what i do with lo subroost but even then its not getting that many sub oppurtunities). scarf is the best scarfer by far and just beats so much shit its not even funny, but even then its missing its lo boost. cm is just not that amzing imo, although its not bad. in general its killing itself too much for me to care if i lose a mon or two. prioritty easily beats it, and it takes a whole toll from sr which has become really common.

    drillbur not really broken at all. its not bulky enough to gain a sd and sweep the opponent team without eviolite, and with eviolite its beaten by missy easily. it requiring sand makes it pretty easy to beat because you can just run weather move pokemon and just beat sand easily (honestly rd staryu kicks ass!) its really weak to priority and has a lot of checks which makes me think its not broken enough for a ban.

    scraggy: im honestly questioning why its even up here. im seeing a decline in scraggy usage and its mostly because its biggest check is used on nearly 50% of teams (just wait for a few days for the stats). scraggy doesnt have nearly any qualitys of a broken mon besides the fact that its good. it has a good eivolite dd set that gets beat by a variety of mons. it has a lo set which isnt bulky enough to sweep with all the priority around, and a wallbreaker lo set which isnt very fast. it gets checked by so many things, a protect mon can beat it if its spamming hjk and drain punch is too weak to talk about. the only issue i do see with it is that its causing mienfoo usage to be incredibly high, but even then thats not scraggys fault, especially when there are multiple equally good checks in scarfkrow, timburr, croagunk, shelmet, and other things
  23. Ray Jay

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    Are you kidding me? After playing with sand I can honestly say this is just not true. Overcentralizing would mean Bronzor (really, the only 100% counter to every Drilbur set) is everywhere. Instead, we see creativity arising that can still beat common sets; such as the obvious Shroomish, Balloon Magnemite on non sand teams, Slowpoke, and others. Drilbur isn't overcentralizing; teams are just beginning to take it into account more than they have in the past. I can't reconcile Drilbur as broken; I know when I'm using sand myself I know that if the opposing team has 2 Drilbur checks the chances of me winning are all but none; at the same time, I understand that even if the opponent only has 1 Drilbur check, I still do lose some of the time. 2 Drilbur checks aren't a necessity, but with 2 Drilbur checks sand becomes almost irrelevant in terms of brokenness.

    Pardon the pun, but dont' make a mountain out of a molehill, so to speak.

    This seems like an unfair question; we banned Gligar and I didn't see any complaining. Sometimes you need to test things again before you can see if they are really broken.

    I think Murkrow, as I said earlier, shines as a teammate. It is a flawed argument to say that Murkrow in itself is broken; it is definitely true that Murkrow paves the way for certain sweeps / cleans up late game after another teammate has smashed holes. The problem with arguing Murkrow's broken lies both in your point (that it either has to deal with having a few counters or kill itself out quickly) and the fact that there hasn't been one definitive teammate or multiple ones that anyone's identified and said "yeah, if I use this and Murkrow, I can sweep almost any team." Murkrow's being played as a solo Pokemon most of the time nowadays, when it really needs proper support to even have a chance.
  24. PoJ

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    Ok, I was in the middle of writing a post but stupid Firefox deleted it (don't ask me how, Idk lol) so I'm gonna make it short.

    Scraggy: definitely not broken, can be beaten by Mienfoo (yes, I've seen Mienfoo surive +1 LO HJK!), Timburr, Cottonee, ScrafKrow, Croagunk (now that most run HJK over ZHB), etc.

    Drilbur: my least fav out of the 3, still not broken though. Super fast speed makes it annoying, but Snover gets rid of SS and if you KO Hippo and still have Snover, Drilbur is so much easier to beat. Anything with relative bulk has the potential to beat Drilbur (just don't let it set up): Lileep, Mienfoo, Timburr, Koffing, Misdreavus (Idk if it survives LO Shadow Claw, probably doesn't with Evio), priority also helps. Lol maybe LO Squirtle could work. Fake Out then STAB Aqua Jet. xD

    Murkrow: Not broken; I think it makes the metagame more fun. I've never used Rhyhorn before this round and I really like it. I hope Krow doesn't start using HP Grass though. Anyways, I think Krow promotes diversity, since there's so many ways you can beat it (but it does have many different sets to prepare for) so I think it's healthy for the metagame.

    Idk just my quick thoughts!
  25. Danilo

    Danilo
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

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    Scraggy:I dont see why this is suspect. It's not very overcentralizing like Gligar was. One of the biggest complaints about Gligar was that it's only check was set up bait and useless offensively(Bronzor). Scraggy is checked by Mienfoo(an amazing defensive pivot), Croagunk(a fine answer to Fighting-types), Shelmet(another fine answer to Fighting-types), and even Timburr sometimes. Certainly not ban worthy.

    Murkrow:Basically agreeing with Ray Jay. Murkrow isn't really a sweeper, it lets other things sweep more easily; it's kind of like a more effective Wynaut. Personally, I think that Murkrow shines in the early to midgame. It weakens checks and counters of its teammates to a point where they can sweep with ease. Also, Murkrow isn't very bulky. Unlike last metagame, no one seems to be running Eviolite on there Murkrow's, meaning that it's taken down by most STAB moves. Murkrow maybe be destructive, but it's not overcentralizing and it's frail; it's certainly not broken.

    Drilburr:This thing is pushing broken in my eyes, but certainly not broken. It has a decent amount of counters and Snover has proven to be an excellent check to Drilburr and sand teams in general. Drilburr is beaten down by most defensive Grass-types and Bronzor. The main problem I have with Drilburr is the 4 Attacks Life Orb set. That set 2HKOs the meta except for the few exceptions I listed previously. But, that set is lacking Eviolite so any form of priority will do. Basically, Drilburr is not broken but kind of annoying to deal with.

    Conclusion:This metagame is fine as is. It's diverse, interesting, skill intensive, and fun. Initially I was disappointed that Gligar was banned(mostly due to the fact that my team of 2 Gligar checks and 1 counter was destroyed), but I don't think that anyone can look at the metagame and say that the council's decision was bad.
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