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np: LC - Blackbird, now with Voting!

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by v, Jan 30, 2011.

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  1. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    I don't see why people are focusing on Drought when it's hardly the biggest suspect. There are several pokemon that hard counter Sun teams. You can use Hippopotas for Sand or Snover for Hail which can help counter Sun (I've used Hippo on a defensive team that had no problems with Sun). Those obviously aren't great ways to deal with Sun because of the spammed Grass- and Fire-type attacks, but you also have three Pokemon with Weather nullifying abilities. Both Lickitung and Swablu are great on balanced/defensive teams, and while Scarf Psyduck isn't optimal, makes a fine weather counter.

    The fact that Sun sweepers have multiple HARD COUNTERS definitely makes them far less broken than things like Zuruggu or Murkrow who have maybe 1 or 2 solid counters/checks. I'm not saying that Drought isn't broken or isn't suspect, but imo it's not THE broken thing that's gotta go.

    Murkrow is probably the most broken thing in the metagame right now. The offensive sets rip through everything. Offensive Murkrow (with Brave Bird/Sucker Punch/Heat Wave/Hidden Power Ice, although I guess you can use Roost over Hidden Power) is basically the only Pokemon in the metagame where once it comes in, you have to choose which of your Pokemon to sacrifice because barring near perfect prediction (dare I call it clairvoyance) it's taking down at least 1 Pokemon. This wouldn't be that bad if Murkrow didn't have 19 Speed and the strongest Sucker Punch (I guess it's tied with Komatana now who usually runs Adamant so I guess its stronger but w/e) in LC, but it does. The only poke that I know of that can actually switch in on Murkrow and live the next hit is Slowpoke, who hates pretty much every other variant of Murkrow (Taunt, Roost variants can be annoying, Sub, CM+HP Dark, etc). Speaking of which, Murkrow is also the most unpredictable Pokemon in the metagame. It has two main sets that have basically opposite counters/checks (think: Salamence last gen).

    Zuruggu is also pretty suspect. It is not nearly as immediately threatening as Murkrow, however I find that in the long term it is far more threatening. It has many checks, and is easily revenge killable, however I feel that most of its checks don't last long due to a lack of recovery or bulk or utility outside of checking Zuruggu (I'm talking about you here Evolution Stone Meditite!). This is problematic because Zuruggu is bulky as fuck and has a shitton of Pokemon that it can come in on. Chances are if you're playing a competent player, your one or even two Zuruggu checks won't be enough.

    I think Zuruggu is pretty unhealthy for the metagame. There are so many Pokemon that are great right now, but many of them are complete setup bait for Zuruggu. This means that if you use a Pokemon like Slowpoke or Tesshiido or even Misdreavus on your team, you need AT LEAST one or two Pokemon that can solidly check Zuruggu. Again, I wouldn't have a problem with this (because that's how teambuilding works lol) if you didn't need multiple Pokemon for every one Pokemon that's Zuruggu bait because of how shitty they are otherwise. I'm sorry, but Dokkora sucks outside of killing Zuruggu, Croagunk sucks outside of killing Zuruggu, and Evolution Stone Meditite is inferior to LO Meditite outside of killing Zuruggu. Monmen has utility but is pretty damn hard to keep alive AND can only come in on DD, and Scarf Kojofuu has a shitton of hard counters which means it won't be lasting that long (especially if it's firing off HJKs to try and OHKO Zuruggu). etc.

    EDIT- Forgot Meditite. Meditite is less suspect than Drought (in my eyes anyways). Slowpoke counters it all day long without ThunderPunch which nobody runs. Gligar works without Ice Punch. Wynaut with Evolution Stone traps it and kills it. It's very easy to revenge kill with only 16 Speed (enter: Misdreavus, Murkrow, etc), and doesn't have much staying power. It has more hard counters than Sun sweepers AND is easily to revenge kill. And outside of its hard counters, with a little prediction you can still switch into its attacks.

    I also feel that Misdreavus is "a little too good", but not suspect imo. Evolution Stone can suck it, there are bigger problems right now.
  2. fatty

    fatty
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    Posting to just agree with EM on the whole Zuruggu subject. It seems like I had forgotten about Zuruggu when I posted before, which is very hard to do seeing as it probably one of the more menacing Mons in the metagame atm.

    Also, Misdreavus is annoying and a nuisance at times, but not ban worthy at all in my opinion.
  3. Moo

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    Murkrow reminds me of Salamence in Gen 4. Not overly broken, but diverse enough that it has no definite counters. I think it should go suspect.

    Also, if Murkrow gets banned, Wynaut should go suspect also because it is one of the few pokes keeping it at bay.
  4. macle

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    lol wynaut is shit now. Its useless with only 3 turn encore. There are tons of Pokemon that keep it down.

    also i agree with em on everything.
  5. SkyNet

    SkyNet MediEvil!

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    I agree with what iss and EM posted about Murkrow, i've never known a LC poke that is so diverse, pretty much all of the sets isn't' 'outclassed' by another mon, which just staggers me.

    Wynaut isn't broken in this metagame the taunt de-buff has hurt it quite a bit as macle posted and all it has gained this gen is the use of Evo Stone, Why anyone would use Evo Stone on Wynaut is beyond me. The point of Wynaut is to sponge as much damage as it possibly can to fire back sure OHKO's. Oran is always the superior option.
  6. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    Murkrow is far more diverse, far more overcentralising and far more dangerous than Salamence. Vulpix, likewise, is overcentralising and bad for the metagame.
  7. tennisace

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    Yeah Wynaut isn't all that great. I mean it's good, but I never have issues with it because of all the Dark Types. Also standard CM Murkrow shits on it all day erry day since Krow is immune to Mirror Coat!

    I agree with EM that Murkrow is the most dangerous Pokemon currently in the metagame, since you have no idea what set it's going to run. The three most common (All out attacker, Featherdance Mono-CM, and Featherdancer with two attacks) all have wildly different checks. Murkrow is also really the only thing that is keeping Meditite, Zuruggu, and to a lesser extent Dokkoro in check. The metagame is unhealthier with it unbanned.

    Also, I believe that Zuruggu is also suspect, but to a decidedly lesser degree than Murkrow. This is because there are a bunch of checks to it, but the fact that you really need more than one makes me cringe. It's really bulky, and gets Dragon Dance and what amounts to an STAB Healing move to fuck things up easily. It also gets fairly perfect neutral coverage in two moves, and then the elemental punches to go with it! I don't think I'd want to ban Zuruggu until Murkrow gets banned, but it is still suspect no matter what.

    Meditite is extremely powerful, yes, but in reality Slowpoke can shut it down very easily. It's also very very frail, meaning it can't switch into attacks anywhere near as easily as Zuruggu can. It's also fairly slow sooo it can be revenge killed, though I mean that's not really an argument for not broken. I don't think it's really all that suspect right now, but in a metagame where it's the main Fighting-type option...

    Drought is annoying as shit but I have only seen one team that is a full sun team (fuck you GK) so I don't have an opinion of it besides my whole "AUTO SUN/RAIN ARE BROKEN FFS" bias. I'll probably make a sun team eventually just to see what all the hullabaloo is.

    As an aside, if Vulpix goes suspect, I would much rather ban the ability Drought than Vulpix since Vulpix does have another ability choice and is a pretty good Pokemon in its own right. Vulpix isn't suspect, Drought's effect on the metagame is.
  8. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    I don't think we should ban anything dubious until we have a balanced metagame, and that means Murkrow and Vulpix gone.
  9. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Personally I found Murkrow to be somewhat weak in this metagame where Pokemon are spamming 25+ Defenses due to Evolution Stone.

    I mostly agree with the consensus about the other Pokemon, but as I said before, I see nothing broken right now with the exception of possibly Evolution Stone.
  10. SlimMan

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    Murkrow can Taunt Wynaut to prevent Encore/Tickle/Charm/Destiny Bond.

    Without Encore to worry about, it can just Roost off any damage you do with Counter. Assuming it doesn't just KO you with STAB super effective Dark moves.

    Special versions screw Wynaut over even worse. Immunity to Mirror Coat means it can do whatever the hell it wants.
  11. Moo

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    Lolwut?
    That's exactly my point. Murkrow screws Wynaut over, but it's one of the few pokes who do. lol.
  12. Darkamber8828

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    Wynaut wasn't uber last generation.

    Wynaut gained nothing this generation.

    Therefore, Wynaut is not uber this generation.

    Anyway, the only beef I have with anything is Murkrow.

    For the reasons listed about, fast, strong on both sides, strong priority, nothing counters it, three good abilities, three good sets, Salamence 1.2, totally kills me team, and stuff.

    I've tried Drought out myself, and I think it's a lot more meh without Bulbasaur. Everything's either too frail or too weak, and EM's right, it's got plenty of counters.

    Unlike a certain murky crow.
  13. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Yea, no.

    Since Encore got mechanically forked by Gen 5, any Pokemon that can either KO Wynaut, switch out (via U-turn), Taunt, or even set up vs Wynaut can technically beat it. This is well over 50% of the top Pokemon that I see in my matches (where are stats when you need them...). Just consider the Dark-types who are running rampant (Murkrow, Vanha, Dour, Komatana) for a nice little snapshot of just one portion of the popular metagame.



    This is the most absurd argument I have seen in a while (no Gen 5 UU thread yet).

    Let's say I have no room in my fridge and I have some beer. Let's apply your logic.

    When it's cold out, I leave my beer outside to keep it cold.

    Beer doesn't change when you buy it in cold whether vs hot weather.

    Therefore, my beer will still be cold if I leave it outside in hot weather.

    See the problem?

    The only, only way your argument would ever hold weight would be if you could prove that Gen 4 = Gen 5 in all aspects (yea....good luck).

    The difference between Salamence (circa Gen 4) and Murkrow is that when you mispredict with Salamence....you can still 2HKO most Pokemon. If you Heat Wave something like Pururiru, good luck. If Salamence (Gen 4) Fire Blasts something like Heatran...Earthquake boom still dead. There aren't surefire counters like Murkrow has (Gligar, Hippopotas, etc).

    Evolution Stone gives LC Pokemon superior defensive capabilities compared to those of Gen 4 OU.

    I've gotten to 1310 on the ladder (#1) and I've not had any trouble with Murkrow, and I don't even carry a surefire counter. It's a threat, like other threats.
  14. SlimMan

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    Oh I thought you said that Wynaut kept Murkrow in check. lol
  15. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    Just asking-How is Meditite broken at all? Run Slowpoke, run Natu, run Exeggcute (who has Harvest + Oran which is hawt), run Baltoy, even Spoink...Pretty much any Psychic-type that can 2HKO it checks it.
  16. AlphaJolt

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    I'm going to agree with EM that Murkrow is the biggest suspect. He has many good sets that he can run, and due to the fact that some are offensive, some are support, and some are defensive, there is no hard counter which can handle all of his sets. Yes, there are counters for each of his sets, but I don't want to dedicate half my team just to check him.

    Drought is annoying, but it's not terrible to play around. I've used both an offensive and a defensive team so far. The defensive one handled it fairly well, and the offensive one strugled a bit, but could still beat it. I would like to see it banned just because it over-centralizes the metagame. Almost half the teams I see are sun teams, and it just gets old.

    I can't see how Meditite is broken. Slopoke walls him to kingdom come; as Charmander said, Natu, Exeggcute, and several others wall him; and Misdreavous can handle non Bulk Up sets. He's not that hard to revenge either.
  17. fatty

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    More than half of those are hit SE by Ice Punch versions, and Spoink's shit defense makes a LO HJK still hurt like fuck.
  18. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    HJK sucks and ghosts can switch in on it. Pretty much just use any Psychic-type =-) Plus Natu has Roost if we're getting details like that.
  19. fatty

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    Ok, thanks for your opinion on the move HJK, too bad not everyone else thinks it sucks due to the immense power it has. Also, I don't have calcs handy, but can Natu take a LO Ice Punch on the switch-in, then take a following BP? (and that's not even factoring in the possibility of SR).
  20. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    Sorry- Meditite, while being immensly powerful, is just too slow to net anything more than one kill (unless you scarf it, which makes the game basically prediction). Slowpoke also hard counters it unless you run ThunderPunch, which is dumb?

    lol heysup (open)
    beerrrrrrr
  21. NeoSeth

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    I agree that Drought needs to be tested. There are plenty of Pokemon out there that can abuse Sun, like Bellsprout (Who's effing dangerous), Exeggcute, and any Fire-type with decent offensive stats can wreak havoc. Considering that a Sun-team can easily be full of these Pokemon, it leaves any counter you may have easily susceptible to being worn down and KOd, leaving you wide open. You have to run multiple counters to truly beat it, and even so, each one of these Pokemon are incredibly powerful in their own right.

    I also can't say I that I think Murkrow is broken. He hasn't been that dangerous in my experience. Nor Meditite, since he can be played around/countered very easily and HJK is a very risky move (Regardless of it's high power).

    Then there's Zuruggu. Zuruggu is a very powerful Pokemon, and is capable of bashing teams with a single turn of set-up. I don't feel it's nearly as bad as sun, but it's still grossly powerful in comparison to the rest of the metagame. It is very comparable to Mence last gen in OU, and like Mence, you can't switch into an attack without being KOd by the next move. Hippopotas? Ice Punch. Gligar? Ice Punch. Tesshido? Drain Punch. I was against banning it last test, but after another month and it's power still being undiminished, I think it'd be nice to have a metagame without Zuruggu.

    EDIT: OR We could unban Scyther (lol) or Yanma and watch the Zuruggu usage drop heavily.
  22. Moo

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    Will you be posting the requirements soon?
    Also sorry about what I said about Wynaut. I had just played a few games with it and was under the impression it was broken as shit.
    I retract the nomination :p
  23. Heysup

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    I've seen some weird Evolution Stone Meditite with Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Bullet Punch be quite effective.
  24. Elevator Music

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    Yeah, that's been popping up recently to deal with Zuruggu. I think kokoloko started using it first (idk)? I find it works well, however it's kind of a waste of Meditite when you could have so much more power, and that it's pretty much only good at checking other Fighting-types....
  25. Brawler1235

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    EM basically summed it up in his post. Murkrow is the most dangerous threat as it is the most unpredictable because it can run so many different sets so effectively. It has a wide move pool with great coverage for the LC metagame, making it very difficult to check, let alone counter.

    I also think that zuruggu is also a big threat in the metagame as well, although not nearly as dangerous as murkrow. With dragon dance, 3 extremely powerful coverage moves, and moxie as its ability, zuruggu has the potential to sweep though teams like its nothing. It can also run more of a defensive set with evolution stone and some HP EV's invested, which is also very difficult to take down.
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