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np: LC - Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting - now with alt verification!

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by v, Apr 5, 2011.

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  1. v

    v I'm on your six
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    This thread is for the discussion of suspects in LC. Exercise some common sense and make sure your arguments make sense. If you make an audacious claim such as “You can't even 72HKO Pawniard with Hi Jump Kick” or “Porygon OHKOes Ferroseed even with Eviolite and a hindering nature,” back them up with calculations! Bold statements are pretty useless without evidence. I also will not tolerate snide remarks or anything abrasive. Stuff like “LOL I can’t believe you think something so ridiculous!” will result in a warning. I want a civil discussion here, so keep the passive aggressive stuff and snarky little asides to yourself.

    Brief recap from the last period: Only Murkrow was banned, and via a supermajority no less, so no more Krow this round. Meditite was kept via simple majority. You can review the full arguments presented here.

    NOM STUFF:
    Bold Pokemon and/or items which you think should be made suspects for this round, and back it up with reasoning. Whether or not we accept your nominations will be determined based on coherency and sensibility. While length is not considered, we would like to remind everyone that is is always best to err on the side of detail in this case. Non-bolded nominations will not be counted.
  2. Zephyr

    Zephyr Life Stream
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    Those Fighting-Type pokemon rape this metagame fast as lightning.


    Speaking of which, the two major concerns this round are indeed Fighting-Types, Meditite and Scraggy to be exact. Both of these Pokemon are great choices for the Standard Little Cup metagame at the moment. Both of them are top tier threats and can certainly punch holes into the opponent's team; the ladder possibly even sweeping through it with a single boost along with relative ease when the conditions are met.

    Meditite is probably my favorite pokemon in this tier as far as performance goes. (and I also hate to come against it ~_~ )

    With an offensive LO set nothing can safely come into its bone crushing blows, and on a more defensive Eviolite set, its vastly dependable at checking a big number of threats and deal heavy damage with its amazing ability and can even heal itself at the same time when combined with Drain Punch.

    Scraggy is arguably the best set-up sweeper available in Little Cup at the moment, after a single Dragon Dance, very few Pokemon come into Scraggy's great movepool and stop its sweep. With access to not one, but two great abilities in the form of Shed Skin and Moxie, it even widens the chances you won't be able to make the proper move to stop this behemoth from potentially engaging in a clean sweep of your team with the right conditions.


    More to come later.
  3. masterful

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    Way to kick this off, Zeph. I agree that out of all of LC, the only pokemon I find to be potentially broken are Scraggy and Meditite. Missy is not as much of a crushing threat as it was in Gen IV, and is not helped by the advent of Speed Boost Carvanha.

    Meditite has absurd offenses, that's for sure, and has perfectly usuable defenses with Eviolite equipped, as 24 attack is no slouch even without the boost from Life Orb. With Eviolite, Meditite can run a bulky set with Drain Punch, E-punches, buffed Fake Out, Zen Headbutt, and even possibly Bullet Punch/High Jump Kick. With Life orb, he can revenge a great portion of the metagame with the combination of Fake Out and Bullet Punch with just marginal residual, or even none at all, allowing it to halt sweeps or rack up residual with Fake Out. With absurd offenses, surprisingly bulky defenses (with or without Eviolite), great coverage, and access to priority, Meditite is incredibly powerful. While he can be checked by one of the meta's greatest threats in Missy, who, despite being 2HKOd by Bullet Punch without an Oran Berry when Stealth Rocks are up, possesses a multitude of options to cripple Tite, such as Sub, WoW, or a straight Shadow Ball, he can beat on most of the metagame with his frightening neutral coverage and priority, all coming off of his massive attack stat. For this reason I find him to be significantly too powerful for the standard metagame, and possibly overcentralizing in his minute number of checks/counters.

    As for Scraggy, I find that while he can truly be a powerhouse, his ability to consistently sweep is generally exaggerated. The most common set is a bulky one with Eviolite equipped and likely Drain Punch/Ice Punch/Crunch/Dragon Dance, and I will explain later why an LO set is just impractical. With this set he reaches 24 attack and 23 speed, which is equal to that of Eviolite Meditite, to put it in perspective. This fact, combined with the low BP of his two STAB moves in Drain Punch and Crunch, which are 75 and 80 BP, respectively, leave him unable to achieve KOs on nearly anything that he does not hit super-effectively. This leaves things like Croagunk, Hippopotas, Timburr, and most fighting types able to take a Drain Punch and likely KO back with their STAB move of choice. You will also notice that at 23 speed only, Scraggy with just one DD gets easily outsped by many scarfers, notably Mienfoo, and things like Drillbur or Chlorophyll Bellsprout which can do heavy damage to him even through the Eviolite boost with their powerful STAB attacks, such as Earthquake and Solarbeam. Yet one more con to add to this pile is that he has no access to priority, leaving him incredibly vulnerable to moves like Vacuum Wave, Extremespeed, Mach Punch (notable, especially on Timburr), and Fake out, all of which can either add residual damage (in the case of Fake Out) or revenge Scraggy after prior damage from anything from Steel Thorns, Leech Seed, or Sandstorm to the attacks he needed to take when switching in to take advantage of his great defenses or setting up on a poke that cannot OHKO it. While Drain Punch may help significantly in dealing with this residual, it can be avoided by the use of switch-ins like Misdreavus or Gligar, who take extremely little damage, or none at all, from Drain Punch, and offer no hp in return when OHKOd by Crunch/Ice Punch, respectively. And while these only deal with +1 Scraggy, I find that it is nearly impossible to get up two DDs without an extreme prediction error made by the opponent, which is rare considering how cautiously players play around Scraggy as of now. For these reasons I find Scraggy to be a TOP-tier threat, but not quite broken enough to warrant a ban at this point, although he most certainly deserves to have a look taken at him, especially if Meditite is banned this round.
  4. kokoloko

    kokoloko genius cannot be contained
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    The biggest threat in the meta right now is undoubtedly Scraggy. Being bulky as fuck, it sets up on a vast majority of the metagame with a fair amount of ease. Its checks are few and far between, as well as unreliable. There's Eviolite Meditite, Timburr, Cottonee and Croagunk. Meditite is easy to wear down, as all you need to do is Crunch it once on the switch in and then kill it off when you're at +1 next time. Recover doesn't really help, since you pretty much have to Drain Punch when you come in, or risk Scraggy Dragon Dancing and proceeding to sweep. Timburr is also easy to wear down due to its Drain Punch not hitting hard right off the bat. Croagunk is even easier to wear down, since it needs Life Orb to do respectable damage and doesn't even have Drain Punch for recovery (usually). Not to mention, these all get easily countered by Slowpoke (unless Thunderpunch on Meditite / 0 Speed IVs on Timburr). Cottonee is also far from reliable, since the Scraggy player can just Ice Punch on the switch, badly hurting Cottonee, then go to a Special Attacker to circumvent Cotton Guard. In other words, Scraggy is just too good.

    Meditite is also pretty dangerous, but to be honest, its not quite to the point where I would like it banned. It still get checked much more easily than Scraggy does, due to its low Speed and inability to boost it. Also, giving free switches to Misdreavus when you Drain Punch is going to hurt like hell.

    Speaking of Midreavus, the recent surge in variety of sets that it has been running has, in my opinion, taken it from "a little too good" to "way too good." Its only viable semi-reliable check is Scraggy. Munchlax and Stunky do as good of a job as they did last gen, and we all saw how that went... I guess Cavanha does an okay job at it, but okay is not good enough with a pokemon like Misdreavus. I would do over all the sets it can run and how each fucks over different pokemon, but again, its just like it was in Gen 4.

    Anyway, in Beta we're doing a one-month test ban on Scraggy, and the metagame became vastly more varied at first, but then people started realizing Misdreavus has no reliable checks, so it centered around that instead. Based off this, I'm pretty sure Scraggy will be banned when the one-month test is over, followed by Misdreavus, and finally Meditite (since Misdreavus is its best check).
  5. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    Meditite is already broken. I hate posting calcs, so I'm just gonna rep a set.

    Meditite (M) @ Evolution Stone
    Trait: Pure Power
    EVs: 196 HP / 196 Atk / 76 Def / 36 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Recover
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Drain Punch
    - Ice Punch/ThunderPunch

    With the huge attack stat, Meditite forces tons of switches. It's bulky enough to avoid the 2hko from a lot of stuff and stall them out. 22/19/18 defenses with a 50% recovery move are not bad at all. Oh yeah, and 28 attack... Recover tite is just another one of the amazing sets meditite can run.

    And agreeing with koko. Missy is really closing in on being overpowered/uncounterable.

    And for the benefit of vader, Porygon does 23-27 damage to eviolite ferroseed with adamant life orb hp fire. Guaranteed ohko with a download boost.
  6. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I'm not a huge fan of recover tite but in general EvioTite is really fucking hard to deal with when most Pokemon can't even OHKO it anymore (ie Gligar).
  7. SkyNet

    SkyNet MediEvil!

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    I've been testing Duel punch Evolite Meditite and its been working well if you get the prediction right as it really has no counters and no safe switch-ins, previously if you saw the opponent's tite was running T-punch Gligar was a safe bet at checking it. Just by running a 2nd elemental punch over the really un-need bullet punch it can take down two of it main counters; Slowpoke and Gligar with some prediction of course.

    Dragon Dance Scraggy is the biggest threat in the metagame just as it can set up on so many pokes in this current metagame, then after a DD only a select few pokes can take a hit and still tell the tale. I guessing i'm not the only person who is sick of running Timburr on every team just to check Scraggy.

    Agreeing with koko about MissyD to a point, the recent boom in NP Missy has seen a surge of Stunky (reminds me of 4 gen days C: ) its a top teir threat but doesn't have the same level of instant force as Meditate.

    My two cents.
  8. fatty

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    I honestly don't think Scraggy is that big of a deal anymore. I dunno, it just seems there are a lot more counters to it then I originally may of thought. You have your general Fighting counters, whether they be Croagunk, Eviolite Tite / Dokkora, or pretty much any other Scarf Fighter. Then you have pretty much any Scarf Flying Mon(Flying seems like a really good attacking type this metagame, so maybe a dual flying strat in the midst?). On top of that, it seems that any relatively bulky Mon that resists Drain Punch and is neutral to it's coverage moves can check it, as shown by Koffing(who is awesome) and Shelmet(yet to try it, seems like it would do well though). Taking this into consideration, I guess the moral of the story is play smartly and don't let Scraggy get more than 1 DD. If you can keep this in mind, I don't think Scraggy is broken at all, not nearly as much as other suspects at least...

    The suspects I have in mind are Meditite and Misdreavus. Both of them have immense power on their side, making countering them incredibly tough. This, among other reasons, is why I feel both are close to being ban worthy.

    Meditite can utilize a LO set to wreck pretty much any switch-in barring Slowpoke, who can potentially be 2HKOd by Tpunch. It can also run an Eviolite set, making killing it 10x harder(Not to mention that Nails has been running a fucked up Recover Tite which is pretty tough to beat when supported right, with Toxic support for example).

    On the other hand, Missy may hit from the Special side of things, but it's still pretty much the same case. After a NP, I don't know anything that can reliably take a hit and KO back barring maybe Munchlax, who after will be severely weakened, enough for any other Special sweeper to pick up where Missy left off and sweep. It doesn't stop there though, as unlike Meditite, Missy has a bit of unpredictability to work with. What I'm talking about is that Missy also has access to WoW, which can severely cripple the common counters to the NP set, making predicting what set it is absolutely crucial.
  9. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Scraggy is not as big of a threat as EvioTite in my opinion. It has reliable switch ins where as with Meditite it can 1v1 almost any Pokemon, meaning you're forced out. If you predict wrong you lose a Pokemon every time. If you predict right you still lose a Pokemon but you damage Meditite a bit.
  10. TorchicBlaziken

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    Hmm... Hearing people talking about banning abilities on certain Pokémon in Standard makes me wonder, if Meditite is banned, if people will be talking about unbanning Telepathy Meditite.
  11. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
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    Absolutely not. Doing so would require a specific ban for Pure Power and Meditite, and I would rather not see us get so convoluted in our bans. The reason Inconsistent is banned is because it is a game-breaking ability regardless of what Pokemon is using it; I'm sure that no one will argue that Azurill is broken with Huge Power (which I know isn't the same ability, technically, but they are equivalent for all intents and purposes).
  12. Moo

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    I don't feel like writing a speech now, but...

    Meditite isnt good for LC pretty much the only poke keeping it in line is slowpoke, which can be beaten with Thunderpunch and prediction. Also, ghosties can easily switch into it, but get blown away by Zen Heabutt, which happens more often than not because it's the most obvious switch ever. Eviolite Drain Punch is a bitch. it r too strongth so it needz to go =(

    Scraggy might not seem broken, but that's because everyone spams Fighters, mainly Meditite. If Meditite goes, I think it'll become broken, since it can just run Zen Heabutt to cockblock the other fighters. Scarf Mienfoo can revenge it, but that's about it from what I can see. Oh, Cotonee can cockblock him with encore too, but that's a risky strategy, since anyone who sees cotonee knows it's coming in on a Dragon Dance. Anyways, I think I began to ramble a bit, so I'll stop.
    Edit: Forgot about gligar, but it can run ice punch.

    It's because Murkrow is gone. He kept all his Fighting bitches in line. Now he can't
  13. Elevator Music

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    I actually think one of the more threatening Pokemon right now is Carvanha. With just a few entry hazards down, it picks off most offensive teams easily, and can make short work of most other teams as well. It has trouble landing OHKOes normally, but with Stealth Rock and a layer or two of Spikes down there are only a few OHKOes that it doesn't nab. Speed Boost helps to eliminate all Scarf Pokemon as revenge killers, leaving only priority users (Timburr and Croagunk) to really stop it. It has a few counters, like Ferroseed and the aforementioned Timburr and Croagunk, but they are generally easy to wear down, especially with a layer of Spikes or two.

    I'm not quite sure it's broken, but it's definitely one of the dominant Pokemon right now.
  14. masterful

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    The only problem I frequently find with Carvanha is that he lacks the power to take out those strong priority users with Aqua Jet, allowing them to completely own himon account of his frailty, along with the fact that he is so horribly horribly walled by Ferroseed, it's really just brutal. Otherwise, he's a home-run hitter. If you take out the opponent's really bulky fightings and their Ferroseed, Vanha can clean teams up easy.
  15. SkyNet

    SkyNet MediEvil!

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    Most people know i've been an avid user of Vanha for months now, in my opinion its no where near broken with all the fighters running rampant at the moment, Scraggy, Meditite, meinfo, gunk can all deal with Vahna and not forgetting Ferroseed that hard walls Vahna.

    There are bigger threats in the metagame.
  16. Crux

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    This post is going to be a bit controversial, however, I would ask that you read all of it carefully before responding.

    I’m sure I’m not the only one who realises this, but nearly every single suspect that has ever been nominated or discussed in any of these threads have something in common. Eviolite. This single item has defined the Generation V Little Cup metagame from the start, I would go so far as to say that this item is the most influential and revolutionary thing to ever be introduced to any metagame. Whether that influence is good or not, I am no longer sure, it is up for debate. Most of you would know that I voted to keep Eviolite in our first suspect test, and was one of its more vocal defenders. Since then, I have come to think that perhaps I was wrong.

    Looking back at all the other suspect threads, Eviolite stands out as the reason behind all eventual bans, except for Moody. If multiple Pokémon are broken with an item, then it is the item that is broken. Banning anything other than a Pokémon however, is an emergency measure, especially in this case, where the item in question is arguably the most important aspect of the metagame. Eviolite makes Little Cup what it is, and banning it would change everything.

    Let’s pause for a moment and look back at our previous suspect rounds.

    In round 1, Meditite, Scraggy and Eviolite (as well as Moody, but let’s disregard that) were nominated; Meditite due to Eviolite making it too hard to KO, Scraggy due to Eviolite allowing it to set up, and Eviolite because it is Eviolite. In round 2, Meditite and Murkrow were nominated; Meditite, solely due to Eviolite and Murkrow due to its sheer versatility (which is primarily due to Eviolite, in fact Murkrow would not be broken without Eviolite.) I understand that this a little bit of an oversimplification, but I think it is also the truth.

    Looking at the current suspect thread, Eviolite once again rears its ugly head. Scraggy, Meditite and Misdreavus can all blame there brokenness on Eviolite; Scraggy and Meditite for the same reasons as before and Misdreavus because it is too easy to set up with when it holds Eviolite.

    You would have to be completely and utterly stupid to miss the common factor. The single thing that breaks all of these Pokémon is Eviolite. Eviolite is broken; I don’t think that it can even be argued that Eviolite is not broken. So why has it remained unbanned for so long?

    As I’ve said above, Eviolite is the defining characteristic of the Generation V Little Cup metagame. Banning it would likely shift the metagame from balanced/stall to Hyper Offense, much like it was in Generation IV. Making a call like that, without being able to experience the option you are moving towards first, is probably stupid. We would be moving into uncharted waters. All that is certain is that the changes will be drastic.

    That is why I would personally like to test an Eviolite-less metagame. Eviolite is broken, but we ban things because we want to make the metagame more enjoyable and more competitive. How then, can we possibly ban Eviolite without a reference point? Like rain in OU, Eviolite is an exception to the rule. It has made so many Pokémon “broken” but removing it would change the metagame completely.

    This is why a test similar to those we had in Generation IV is, I believe, necessary. Such a ban is too big of a risk to undertake without prior experience and knowledge. However, I also believe that this ban is necessary.

    I don’t claim to know how we would go about this, perhaps setting up a separate ladder, or simply banning Eviolite for a test period. However, do think that this is an absolute necessity, and needs to occur before any other bans can take place.

    Please post your support or criticisms of this post in the thread, I will do my best to answer any questions you may have.

    tl;dr? well go back and read it again.
  17. Nails

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    I support an eviolite ban. I've been talking about an eviolite ban with people on irc and I think that the meta would be better without it.
  18. masterful

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    While I honestly find eviolite far from broken and believe that when eviolite is taken away from EVERYTHING,it will become easier to sweep and to destroy teams with things like Meditite, I agree a test seems apropos. Yet I also believe that the only reason LC stall exists in any recognizable level is thanks entirely to eviolite, which allows for more variation in teams. As of now, hyper offense, balance, and stall styles all exist in LC, and removing Eviolite would just shrink that variation significantly. For me, an enjoyable metagame possesses significant variation and is a place where many things can be viable and useful to a team. For that reason, I oppose an Eviolite ban as of now.
  19. Crux

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    If anything, Eviolite restricts the metagame. It stops many things that dont have access to an Attack boosting move being useful outside of stall and gives stall a distinct advantage. If Eviolite were taken away, stall would still exist, losers like Eo would still find ways to bring it back. It was, after all, used in Gen IV. If Eviolite were taken away, countless new threats and sets would emerge, as the need to boost to kill anything also no longer exists.

    Meditite would certainly be a threat in an Eviolite-less metagame. However, it would not become easier to sweep, if anything it would become harder, since priority would once more become effective, which allows you to stop nearly all LC sweepers.
  20. masterful

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    Tell that to non-NP Missy or LO Carvanha or Scarf Mienfoo or literally every other non-boosting attacker in LC, of which there is no shortage. With good coverage and the fact that LC acts much like lvl 50 in that moves generally do more damage and you see that Eviolite simply allows for the use of balance and stall in a real sense, and does not restrict hyper offense teams as you so claim. Also, while people ike Eo and SDS may have used stall in Gen IV, it was admittedly significantly less effective than present stall and simply not up to par, in general, with the power offense teams which ran the metagame. Gimmicks can exist in any meta, and can take advantage of oversights in common philosophy and teambuilding to be effective to some extent, but rarely to the point where they can be consistently used to be as effective as simply the dominant battle styles, much like Gen IV rain in OU, which was still used by some people.
  21. Al_Alchemist

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    That's a complete oxymoron -.-, Eviolite allows the use of handfuls of Pokemon that would be unviable otherwise (such as Wooper, etc.). Sure it prevents Pokemon like Mantyke from being as useful as they once were, but if you're pushing for more weaker Pokemon to be offensively viable, I believe you are pushing in the completely wrong direction. Historically, LC has been flooded by Offensive Pokemon, and this gen Stall is actually having its day in the sun, or at least seeing some flicker of light.
    Distinct advantage my ass! Stall is still pretty much nonexistent, the most I've seen is semi-stall, which fails to work out that well. Sweepers are still arguably more powerful than what OU sweepers are to their walls, if anything we need better walls. Nails had a successful stall team back when Gen 5 LC was still starting out with no one knowing crap about the current metagame. If you look, you can see it had significant flaws, despite him probably using the best of the best (See Scraggy vs. said team). I'd like to see this so called "distinctly advantaged" stall team that has eluded my grasp.
    The amount of Pokemon that Eviolite even comes close to overpowering are very few, and are suspects themselves for much more than just their item boost. The three you mentioned that blame their brokeness on Eviolite have other qualities that well abuse Eviolite far more than other Pokemon who need it just to become viable. Scraggy has his DD + STAB perfect coverage moves and excellent stats and Meditite has his Sky High Attack Stat and above average defenses. They also benefit from Drain Punch giving them back HP, so they don't have to rely on Recover/Oran for healing.

    Misdreavus just has sky high stats as well, but doesn't even use Eviolite half of the time, it would be pretty much as effective, if not more, with Oran Berry. I suppose what I'm saying is, if you get rid of the few Pokemon that are broken with Eviolite (imo just Meditite and Scraggy, maybe Misdreavus in the aftermath), then you would find a balanced metagame, because of Eviolite helping to prevent already powerful cleaners (such as Carvanha) from completely decimating us. I can't help but feel that you are arguing for the banning for Eviolite, soley because of its shift of the metagame being able to utilize Stall (in a non gimmicky / wacky fashion such as EO Stall), which is different from last gen LC. The worst Eviolite seems to do is make Stall not a rare sight in the metagame, and I don't see what the bad part of that is.
  22. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    I was going to post, but Al_Alchemist said it better than I could have ever dreamed to.

    Tite, Misdreavus, and Scraggy are just as broken without Eviolite, simply because Eviolite gives stuff the defensive ability needed to check them. Imagine taking LO Tite without stuff like Eviolite Slowpoke to check it.

    A test of Eviolite would just turn into "i like this meta more than that". Eviolite is by far not broken. It's not restrictive (I see more Pokemon now than I did in Gen 4), and is just about as widespread as Oran Berry was in Generation 4 (that is, extremely common) or just as common as Leftovers is in OU. If anything, it balances the metagame, allowing HO, Balance, AND Stall to coexist in the metagame in a way that one could only dream of in Generation 4.
  23. fatty

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    Basically just reiterating masterful's and Al's post. I agree that eviolite defines the metagame, but I feel it's for the better due the diversity that it brings to LC. In short, I don't think it's ban worthy or near broken and should stay in LC because it makes LC that much more enjoyable to play. Also, I don't know if it's because I have a more defensive playstyle, but honestly my problem with suspects, unlike what Crux mentioned, is mostly the corresponding LO sets for Missy and Tite, not the Eviolite sets.
  24. Moo

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    I think what Crux means is that most things that are supposedly overpowered, are because of Eviolite, and getting rid of it would hit 3 or 4 birds with one (Evolution) Stone.

    But I agree with the fact that Eviolite has made the Metagame more diverse. Plus, if it was banned, that'd mean a shitload of C&C work would be gone down the drain :\
  25. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    C&C work is irrelevant to suspect testing. If something is broken, we should get rid of it!
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