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np: LC - Hello Goodbye

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by v, Nov 8, 2011.

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  1. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    The tough thing about it is that once you finally figure out its moveset, it'll often be at +2 or if you're really unlucky, it could have a substitute up too. It's a tall job revenge killing her though. There's very little that can get a solid OHKO that functions well as a scarfer really and wynaut simply won't work.
  2. Methmite

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    I can agree with that spuds. Once she sets up you *need* to start sacrificing shit just to take down the sub, let alone getting to her. At the same time though; That is sort of the point of "Setting up." I think; once we find a counter that either forces her to use a 3rd attack or can deal with anything she can throw at it sort of like Bronzor (and now gligar) is to Drilbur her sub sets will stop being so gross.

    Closest I've gotten so far is Murkrow which resists the two most common moves on Misdreavus (least in my experience) being Shadow ball and HP fighting (neutral, whatever). It also gets access to priority support in the form of Roost and Substitute as well as priority STAB in the form of Sucker Punch (which is SE against Mis). The biggest problem I've ran into is that Evolite is needed which greatly takes away from murkrows "oomf." On most defensive Krow sets, this isnt an issue, when you can run something like FeatherDance/CM to compliment the increase in defense. This one is basically *designed* to say fuck you to ghosts.

    I had just thought of it while typing this post, but Stunky could make a very good Misdreavus counter.
  3. fatty

    fatty
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    yes, stunky is good at handling ghosts. pretty much the only reason why it's used.
  4. MegaKick

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    clampearl is actually really epic right now if it can pick up a rattled boost, a very underrated mon.

    So far in my experience, misdreavus seems like it fits in just fine, not really that amazing it really just sets up a sub or hits something with shadow ball. Havent seen a lot of murkrow.

    Imo, the most dangerous of these guys right now is gligar, who can go bulky or offensive and either pass or smash your face in. I'm running a scarf set atm and it does really well surprising things like hippo and duskul with aqua tail and night slash, as well as having that fast u-turn and stab earthquake.
  5. iss

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    Doesn't even come close to needing a Rattled boost. Shell Smash Clamperl on its own is excellent, as the abundance of things such as Scarf Shellder locked into Icicle Spear or Scarf Misdreavus locked into Trick are both great for Clamperl. As Clamperl really doesn't need Ice Beam in this metagame, you can run Substitute (for Sucker Punchers) or Protect (for Fake Outers) as the fourth move. With DST you kill everything anyways.

    I agree. Misdreavus isn't broken at all, it's just extremely versatile. Of course, if we leave it unbanned, people will start bitching about how it "doesn't promote diversity" (see December stats thread) by making other Ghost-types unusable. They aren't; remember double Ghost teams from DPP LC? Those could make a return these days too.

    Nasty Plot Misdreavus is really good though- with Thunderbolt, you can actually get +2 on Murkrow pretty easily with good prediction. It pretty much sweeps the tier aside from Stunky/Munchlax/faster Pokemon/speed ties. Substitute helps a ton.

    Don't know what Little Cup you've been playing. Murkrow is practically on every team, and it deserves to be. FeatherDance + CM is fantastic as usual, although not quite as good as people have really found how to deal with it. MixKrow and Brave Bird/Sucker Punch/Substitute/Roost are both really really good, MixKrow especially can get a lot of kills out of sheer surprise value.

    Maybe it's just me, but Gligar feels just barely broken. Not in the sense that it can rise up and 6-0 teams by itself, but just the sheer combination of power, speed, and bulk. FMSS and the one-item restriction are both huge limiting factors for Gligar, as Eviolite sets just feel really weak against anything you can't hit with Earthquake while Flying Gem sets are really fragile. Choice Scarf is good but weak, only certain types of teams use it well (mainly hyper offense teams, as they really enjoy the free switch from U-turn). A Gligar with a Swords Dance is scary but is easily revenge killed by Choice Scarfers, a Gligar with an Agility is scary but is easily revenge killed by anything that can take a hit.

    Yes, I'll be posting more in this thread.
  6. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    I thought I'd chime in on these words of wisdom. Honestly, Gligar can't do anything to a Pokemon like Bronzor, and residual damage and weaker priority are capable of bringing down the as you mention frailer Flight Gem set. The problem is not even its versatility (honestly, Murkrow and Misdreavus probably have more viable sets than Gligar) but the fact that it just can't be overprepared for. Nearly every player on the ladder I've seen that's peaked within the top 10 is using the combination of Croagunk or Mienfoo / Bronzor / Shellder or Snover, merely to beat the core of Gligar / Scraggy. In my opinion, the overcentralization argument is pretty stupid, and since something like Bronzor is a definite counter to all offensive Gligar sets and beats all defensive Gligar sets bar ones with like Immunity or something stupid like that, it's going to take a lot more to break Gligar than what I've seen.

    Like Sand Veil abuse.
  7. spuds4ever

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    While some of the new 3 may not be directly broken, I feel the meta-game is revolving too much around them, and while the mienfoo craze was by no means healthy, it was definitely not going to be around for too long. It's very difficult to make a successful team without one of the three at least in my opinion (or maybe I'm just being too narrow-minded). I think if one or two go, then all will have to go as misdreavus will be very tricky to check without murkrow (yes, missy has counters to murkrow, but what check doesn't she have one to?), murkrow will be tough without gligar (yes, it has icy wind, but that's still using a moveslot for one pokemon) and gligar without misdreavus as bronzong is very easy to get around anyway (magnet rise magnemite for example).
  8. iss

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    Usage determines tiers (such as OU, UU, RU, or NU). Usage does not determine banlists. Even if something had 100% usage, it would not be banned if it was not broken. Obviously there is a correlation between being "good" and usage, but one does not directly lead to the other.

    Mienfoo was simply extremely, extremely good in the last metagame. U-turn + Regenerator was simply great, and being a decent Scraggy check with the right EVs made it extremely useful in general. However, Mienfoo was not broken. It was not "not healthy" for the metagame. See my posts in the December stats thread for more explanation.

    It's very difficult to make a good team without good Pokemon. Your point?

    Murkrow is by no means a Misdreavus counter. Thunderbolt and Icy Wind wreck it completely. Will-O-Wisp helps out too. Things like Stunky are a lot better at being a Misdreavus counter, because you either kill it or force it to run an incredibly specialized set in order to beat you (limiting its other options). Banning Murkrow would not have too big of an effect on how Misdreavus is played.

    Gligar really needs to stop being hyped as a Murkrow counter. Yes, Swords Dance + Acrobatics beats Calm Mind Murkrow, but gets absolutely destroyed by every other Murkrow set in existence. Calm Mind Murkrow isn't even that common anymore, so honestly Gligar is not that great of a Murkrow switch.

    In addition, Misdreavus gets absolutely wrecked by a +2 Acrobatics unless you're running Choice Scarf, which obviously limits your options and probably should be scouted earlier in the match anyways.

    ----

    I'd like to touch on something that Crux and I had a conversation about back in the last metagame. Little Cup is not a metagame where a hard counter to everything exists. It is a metagame where your team, as a whole, has multiple checks and counters to certain sets for the common threats. I might have Croagunk for Scraggy that lack Zen Headbutt, but I also need Gligar for Scraggy that lack Ice Punch. Yes, this means that if your opponent has a Scraggy alive for the majority of the game, you must keep your checks/counters alive for the whole game. Team Preview makes this incredibly easy.

    In general, you must teambuild well, and you must play well. Sounds simple, but don't complain that you lost to Nasty Plot Misdreavus because you switched your Stunky into Gligar.
  9. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    So here's the thing. There are two types of teams on the ladder atm: teams that are underprepared for Misdreavus and teams that are overprepared for Misdreavus. Teams that are underprepared are characterized by lacking a strong special sponge, or thinking Murkrow is a great Misdreavus counter (see above post) or just plain thinking Lileep can repeatedly switch in to Misdreavus (it can't). Teams that are overprepared are characterized by Stunky.

    Honestly, I'm not sure which is worse. Stunky is virtually useless in this meta outside of checking Misdreavus, and Gligar just loves to take it on so much. The best balance I've found is the use of a bulky offensive lure (people such as blarajan and fatty, who showed me bulky Croagunk w/ Dark Pulse and Eviolite Houndour with Pursuit, respectively). I guess the moral of the story is prepare for Misdreavus, even run Stunky if you absolutely HAVE to, but if you do for goodness sakes use Bronzor.
  10. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    That's basically how it has to be because of the nature of missy and her counters. The counters are so specific and also have trouble being "that" useful in other circumstances. While if you don't over prepare you're fucked.
  11. spuds4ever

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    Some interesting points, iss. Didn't think about the metagame that way. Priority sub certainly helps with murkrow beating misdreavus but it clearly isn't the best counter out there. Anyway

    Another problem is actually hitting misdreavus in any effective and durable way. There isn't really anything that can take repeated hits from her great coverage and hit back with a decent special hit (I find physical hits are usually useless because of how common wow is) and DOT damage is usually not a great idea because she can quite easily whip out a substitute out of the blue. I think I have to agree at least partially with Heysup as one pokemon is very rarely enough to counter her. Is this a sign of being broken perhaps?
  12. Methmite

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    Some one else came up with it ( I wanna say Fatty) but things like bulky houndour have the ability to check missy and still be useful. I think saying missy is broken is a bit of a leap. Each of her sets has specific things that it cannot break depending on what its running. The problem people are running into with her is that their is no "Oh she cant do anything to this" pokemon.

    For example; Last meta, near the end. When * every* team was a sand team w/ drillbur. Bronzor shot to i think it was #5 in usage, strictly because it kept drillbur at bay, as it could not touch bronzor. The closest thing to a "bronzor" for missy would be stunky. And then you have death fodder.

    iss (and i guess crux, since he was in the convo too) put it best in that their shouldnt be "X slot for Y mon" on your team; instead it should be "XYZ slots to check ABC mons and their various common sets"

    My biggest problem this meta has been shell smashers, tbh. Its sorta like scraggy and drilbur from last: I'm so busy tring to handle the 3 new offensive threats; I dont really have a fail safe for omanyte and his smashed friends.
  13. fatty

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    it's easy to understand how that happens. the best way to deal with the shellsmashers are super fast scarfers like taillow / staryu, or good priority users like eviolite croagunk or various sucker punch / mach punch / fake out users. the problem with the latter though is that these are some of the mons / moves that the 3 new additions (glig, missy, krow) love to switch in on, just giving them more turns to wreak havoc on your team. this is also why the shellsmashers + the big 3 work so well together and why acro glig + dd scraggy + ss shellder / ss clamperl is probs the best offensive core atm.
  14. Methmite

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    Thanks for the tip fatty; I'm sure i can clockwork something together with that info.
  15. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    It's been nearly a month since we've had some honest metagame discussion, we're getting new usage stats pretty soon, and I feel like posting again in this thread for a few reasons. Let's chat.

    1. Do you guys think anything is broken? Honestly, after playing many matches, I would have to say nothing is uncounterable. Personally, I believe the meta is perhaps a more cautious one. For example, if I am running Bronzor on my team, then I have to be pretty careful not to let him take more than about 40% if the opponent has Acrobatics Gligar. In my experience, this actually puts an emphasis on smarter play rather than stronger play; Acrobatics Gligar decimates a vast portion of the tier but still, you can't just throw it out there turn one and expect to win. Conversely, I can repeatedly switch in my Bronzor, then play with a smart switch and have the upper hand without even using an offensive monster such as Gligar.

    2. Centralization, while not an argument that I deem makes a Pokemon banworthy, is definitely occuring within the current meta. Notably, I see tons of teams using the common core of Gligar and Scraggy; I also see most every team with something that can take hits from Gligar (such as Bronzor), something that can revenge Gligar and Murkrow (Scarf Snover, Shellder, or Chinchou), and something that can reliably counter Scraggy (Mienfoo or Croagunk). This is obviously due to the fact that the metagame is more offensive, but offensive Pokemon cannot consistently switch in to the three unbanned for a couple of reasons; primarily, almost nothing can outspeed the three 19 Speed-ers without a Choice Scarf, and with a Choice Scarf, everything becomes frail. This leads to teams using a defensive core that beats the offensive core of Gligar + Scraggy, an offensive core of their own, and a Choice Scarf user. In all actuality, that's probably more reminiscent of true balance teams than the last meta, AKA 6 Eviolite users.

    3. Why is Murkrow's usage on the ladder so low in comparison to that of Misdreavus and Gligar? I posited in the usage stats thread that this was likely because Murkrow needs a vast amount of team support to work, and while I think this is likely still the case, the simple fact is Murkrow is too good of a Pokemon to be as unabused as it is. I've talked to some people, and the main thing stopping it in this meta, in my opinion is the prevalence of Toxic to stop CM FD sets and the prevalence of Pokemon that can actually wear down LO MixKrow variants with Eviolite and Recovery. That leaves us with SubRoost, arguably the best set in the meta (seriously, try this with hazard and hail support...) that has trouble breaking through some mons but late game, is an absolute monster. Overall, I think it's at such a low usage due to uncreative team building / team stealing, but I'm curious what you guys think on this one.

    Just some thoughts I've had recently.
  16. macle

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    Missy and Gligar are used more since they are easier to fit into a team. Gligar and Missy are immune to better types than Krow and they aren't afraid of sr that can cause Krow problems. Overall its just easier to slap missy or gligar on a team than it is with krow.
  17. Methmite

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    @Rayjay; I havent gotten the chance in a while to really sit down and just hammer out game after game (an issue made large from the scarcity of LC games) at all since the three have been unbanned, but from what I have played, everything you said basically hits it all exactly.

    My only real complaint still remains as it's * incredibly* hard to cover all your threats and still have a team to maintain an offensive presence unless it's something really basic, "gligar/Scrags/Mienfoo/Bronzor/CSuser/missy for the fuck of it" (PPSSST TOTALLY NOT MY TEAM OR NOTHIN). I mean; I'm sure my inability to team build well is a huge factor in this, but I'm still having the issues of dealing with faster Shell smashers like Shellder (when they're played well) while still having the ability of dealing with Acrobatics Gligar well. TBH; I think Heavy Offense can really show back up in this meta just on the grounds that most "utility walls" like bronzor can't really take consistent beatings from multiple sweepers.

    I do agree wif you that I'm sorta sad to not see more diverse teams. I think this meta really has the ability to abuse *all* play styles if they're played correctly, but I think people are too intimidated by the ass-load of new threats to really.... smash that shell of familiarity (oh my god, I am so fucking clever). I know I am; though I'm attempting to move out side of it a bit - prolly gunna get my ass rocked, but what else is new?

    but yeah, TL;DR: I like the new meta, I dont think anything needs banning, but I do wish the meta would evolve a bit. I blame EM for not doing weird stuff yet (Joking)
  18. Rowan

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    I've been thinking a bit about why Murkrow is lower in usage and I think it's due to the way people teambuild. This is certainly the case for me anyway.
    When I teambuild I try to incorporate good defensive synergy and counters to the most dangerous/common threats. I always try to include an answer to Gligar, Missy, Krow, Scraggy, ShellSmashers, Chinchou/Staryu, Non-ScraggyFighters. Obviusly there are more threats but these seem to be the most prevelant for me.
    When thinking of how to deal with these pokes, Murkrow never really springs to mind. The only ones it can serve as an actual counter to are the Non-Scraggy Fighters. However, these are mainly only a threat to your team if you carry Scraggy, and when using Scraggy, Gligar is always a better sweeping partner for it and can do the job of countering the fighters.
    I don't find Krow can Counter Missy very well due to thunderbolt and icy wind becoming more common (Seems to be the case for me anyway).
    I've faced a few people that have Murkrow on their team, yet as long as I apply enough offensive pressure, it tends to stay hidden on the bench due to most teams having better counters to the more common threats.

    Having said that, in my opinion, Mixkrow is the most powerful sweeper in the whole of littlecup due to its immense coverage; It just needs a bit more support to make it worth it.

    These are just my thoughts on the matter, apologies if it doesn't make too much sense.
  19. spuds4ever

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    1. I agree with you Ray Jay, nothing is incounterable in this metagame, albeit some is very difficult to counter but is still counterable. The main problem I see is that the big three are amazing in so many fields. Gligar is a fantastic physical wall/tank, rocks setter, baton passer, physical sweeper, scout and late game cleaner, Misdreavus is an amazing special sweeper, disruptor, special tank, and scarfer while murkrow is an equally good mixed sweeper, physical sweeper, disruptor, revenge killer, and to top it off, it has the infamous feather dance+calm mind set all hitting the coveted 19 speed tier and the same in their chosen attack stat.

    With these three running around, the only jobs left which aren't out-classed by the big 3 are these, shell-smashing (it's not coincidence that nearly all teams carry one now), spike setting (which is pretty useless seeing as the three are all imune), choice scarfing (to some degree), being scraggy, and weather starting (ok, I'll give you that one).

    2. Look to post 1, I think it the meta-game over centralizes around them. Yes, there are still pokemon that can sweep very effectively like scraggy and the smashers, but that's often because teams are already packing so many checks to the three.

    Also, as meth said, I find it quite sad not really to find anything around that's actually imaginative, which was one of my favourite aspects about little cup, it's just same old heavy/bulky offense, same old pokemon. I'd really like to come back to LC, but I just don't enjoy it enough seeing how rare they are compared to how tedious all the games are.

    3. Same as everyone else said, murkrow just needs a fair bit of team support to work. Doesn't mean he's any less dangerous though.
  20. iss

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    The four Pokemon that I have seen various people claim to be broken are Gligar, Misdreavus, Murkrow, and Scraggy. Let's take a look:

    Gligar: No. While I do agree that Gligar is very very good, that doesn't make it broken in any way. Bronzor hard counters it, and it can't boost its Attack and Speed at the same time, which lowers its sweeping potential. Defensive Gligar is one of the best defensive Pokemon out there, but it isn't so good that it is broken. Baton Pass is probably the closest to being broken, but if you let Gligar get a Substitute and a Swords Dance / Agility, you probably deserve to lose the game anyways.

    Misdreavus: No. Despite all the arguments about Stunky being dead weight, it does counter Misdreavus. Bulky Pokemon such as Porygon and Croagunk can also beat it. Misdreavus would be fantastic if you could look at your opponent's team before choosing your set; as is, it is stuck doing way too much—Nasty Plot allows it to break down most common checks and counters, but leaves it wide open to Stunky and Munchlax, for which it needs Will-O-Wisp for. Aside from that, its stats just are a little bit less than what it needs—not enough defenses to avoid 2HKOs from common attacks without investment, not enough Special Attack to 2HKO common Pokemon. If Misdreavus just was a slightly bit better, maybe things would be different.

    Murkrow: Possibly. Murkrow is probably the most skill-based Pokemon in this metagame. SubRoost is probably the best demonstration of this—predict a switch, use Substitute, net a free kill. However, good teambuilding will defeat Murkrow quite easily. Murkrow really needs to be saved till lategame—against a good player, its presence will force them to play extremely conservatively, especially if they do not know what set Murkrow is running. Murkrow doesn't have a true hard counter, but with good play and teambuilding it is quite manageable. In a few aspects, Murkrow is a lot like Drilbur in the last metagame—while not necessarily broken alone, the effects it has on your opponent's play can be quite devastating. That being said, Murkrow is not quite broken (yet).

    Scraggy: Possibly, but probably not. To be honest, I've been struggling with Scraggy a lot lately. Scraggy takes advantage of the other top suspects so well—since I'm using Porygon to check Gligar, Misdreavus, and Murkrow, Scraggy has a ridiculously easy setup. Finding a solid counter to Scraggy that doesn't suck in other situations is pretty difficult. However, Scraggy is still pretty weak. Its +1 Ice Punch doesn't even come close to OHKOing Eviolite Murkrow. Scraggy is still definitely a very dangerous Pokemon, and it is certainly much more difficult to counter due to teambuilding necessitated by Gligar, Misdreavus, and Murkrow.

    It is, and this actually annoys me a lot. The metagame is probably down to about 20 viable Pokemon now, and your team practically must have six of those or you lose simply due to having worse Pokemon. Too often I can tell straight from Team Preview if this match is going to be easy or not. The main problem is that there's nothing we really can do about it. Nothing in the current metagame is extremely broken, and there is no one source of centralization that I can point to and say "oh, that's it." It's just that some threats require you to have appropriate counters, for which there are not many. Then you need an offensive presence of your own, and all of a sudden you already have six Pokemon. It's not that the current metagame is bad—it is very skillbased, which is certainly something we want to see. The question is now how do we encourage innovation and creativity while keeping a balanced metagame?

    Murkrow's most effective set, SubRoost, takes a lot of skill and practice to use properly. As such, many people either use it incorrectly and become discouraged with it or use a less skillbased set such as MixKrow, which is not nearly as effective and causes them to remove it from their team due to it not pulling its weight. Misdreavus and Gligar are both very easy to use, and are effective. As more people learn how to use SubRoost properly, I expect Murkrow usage to rise.

    Good questions as usual Ray Jay!
  21. Ray Jay

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    I think you touched on this earlier when you mentioned you've been having problems with Scraggy lately. There are so many really strong threats in the meta that just do so well that it's hard to dedicate more than one slot to countering something. The thing with that is when you only have one slot dedicated to countering something (let's say Scraggy, for example), you greatly open yourself up to hax. For example, let's say I throw out Scraggy and you bring in Croagunk. I Ice Punch in anticipation of this and I get a freeze. Now, the game has drastically changed due not only to hax but due to relatively inadequate teambuilding. The problem with this inadequate teambuilding is that it discourages offensive play as, as you pointed out, you may only get the slot for one real offensive presence on your team. Not only that, this inadequate teambuilding may be impossible to bypass if you simply don't have the slots to dedicate on your team to more counters. In other words, what was a pretty offensive metagame as soon as the 3 new guys were unbanned has actually balanced itself; I like that, others don't.
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