NP: LC - Juiced

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Now that Berry Juice is now available on the CAP server (more importantly the Little Cup Ladder), it's time for testing to get officially underway!

Post here regarding your experiences in the new Berry Juice metagame. Anything you feel may be improved, less effective, underpowered, overpowered, etc.

Certain Pokemon may be preemptively removed from the ladder if it becomes clear that they are broken with the inclusion of Berry Juice. Remember the official "Characteristic of an Uber" for an item such as Berry Juice:

If the inclusion of an item requires an inordinate number of bans to balance, or requires the implementation of Item Clause or any other form of subjective restriction, it will be banned.

The word "inordinate" is subjective, but if Berry Juice renders broken at least twice as many "suspects" as there are at the current moment, it may be either banned or put up for a vote with standards for earning a vote decided at a later time.

Pokemon banned from the ladder during Berry Juice testing will be listed at the end of this post.

Get cracking!

CASUALTIES TO DATE:

- Dratini
- Wynaut

 

[Heysup]

I think there is already an impressive amount of Pokemon that are almost undeniably broken with Berry Juice. I'm not going to bore people with calcs, you all probably know the calcs anyway.


Wynaut: First and foremost....broken. Wynaut has a monstrous amount of Health, and Berry Juice restores something like 74% of it. The reason Wynaut wasn't banned before (with just Oran berry) is because it didn't resemble Wobbufet. It wasn't THAT bulky, and leftovers are garbage. Now, with the recent increase in popularity of Wynaut (probably due to the excessive amount of new set up sweepers, and the excessive amount of choice scarfers needed to stop these Pokemon), it was really getting to be on the more powerful side of the LC spectrum.

Once Berry Juice came into play, Wynaut, more than any Pokemon, got nearly impossible to deal with properly. Going from a total HP of 37 with Oran Berry, to 47 is ridiculous. It can now survive stupid amounts of damage, and throw it back double at the opponent, or Encore it. It can even survive Dratini's LO Outrage, bulky DDTini's +1 Outrage (most of the time)...so you get the point.

That's only half of it. Wynaut breaks a huge chunk of the metagame via countering Choice Scarfs and using Encore. It breaks...well....almost every bulky stat upper. Going as low as Krabby, who can Agility up and sweep with ease at 22 Attack, and going as high as Gligar Missy and Dratini who can all set up and destroy any team.

It's been said by everyone for obvious reasons on IRC, this is just off the top of my head.

Dratini: Oran Dratini was ok. Life Orb Dratini is almost (well, due to Wynaut it's probably broken..but that's not the point) considering for suspect status. Berry Juice Dratini...you get the point. With a bulkier EV spread, Dratini can take advantage of its decent HP stat, defenses, and most of all, its typing and movepool. With Berry Juice, Dratini can set up on shit like non-NP Missy, Houndour (more effectively, as in get 2 DDs), and others quite easily. After 2 DDs, or even one, Dratini because nearly unstoppable. After one DD, Dratini is really only revenge killable by Scarfed Explosions from things that resist or are immune to Exstreme Speed. The odd bulky Pokemon can survive (Bronzor, maybe Lickitung), but can't KO back. This is the definition of sweeping with little effort.

Bagon: Bagon is basically Dratini but more physically bulky, with Dragon Claw and Fire Fang, but without ExtremeSpeed. Bagon's advantage is really that it doesn't need to commit to Outrage when faced with a foe such as Munchlax. Other than that, it's the same shit as Dratini. Dragon Dance once or twice easily with berry juice (it's not even 2hKOed by Mankeys CC), and sweep away.

Munchlax: Albeit, Munchlax isn't as broken as the current suspects + the 3 Pokemon above, but it is definitely gotten passed the point of "good bulky Pokemon". With Scarfed Fighters literally being not viable for this metagame, Munchy is home free from OHKOes. With 53 HP, an excellent Attack, great coverage, and respectable defenses at its disposal, Munchlax becomes what i like to refer to as "too strong for Little Cup". This is hard to 'put into a characterstic' because it doesn't "sweep", it just stupid hard to KO. Like, Munchlax is something that can KO most Pokemon twice over before they can even think about KOing it. You guys probably know what I'm talking about.

Phanpy: I know, I know. It's Phanpy. I'm just going to say, that with 48 HP, Stealth Rock is really easy to set. If the Pokemon somehow did over 25 damage to Phanpy (like, a lucky Overheat Houndour can OHKO it...that's it) then that's unfortunate, but that doesn't really happen. The opposing Pokemon will have a ton of trouble even with Phanpy losing as turn to Stealth Rock! For example, Voltorb 3HKOes (yes, 3 Super effective Hidden Powers on base 10 SpD) Phanpy, so Phanpy can Stealth Rock, Earthquake, then Ice Shard and still have like 34% HP left. That's enough to take a good chunk of another Pokemon. You can tell it's not the Pokemon being broken in this situation...heh.

I'm starting to see a pattern here. Pokemon that have bulk: with either lots of HP, or an awesome set-up move are pretty ridiculous. Thank God we don't have recycle...yet.

 

[Matthew]

Munchlax: Albeit, Munchlax isn't as broken as the current suspects + the 3 Pokemon above, but it is definitely gotten passed the point of "good bulky Pokemon". With Scarfed Fighters literally being not viable for this metagame, Munchy is home free from OHKOes. With 53 HP, an excellent Attack, great coverage, and respectable defenses at its disposal, Munchlax becomes what i like to refer to as "too strong for Little Cup". This is hard to 'put into a characterstic' because it doesn't "sweep", it just stupid hard to KO. Like, Munchlax is something that can KO most Pokemon twice over before they can even think about KOing it. You guys probably know what I'm talking about.

It's really kind of irksome that you're saying Munchlax is too strong because it can take a hit, that is pretty much saying that Blissey is too strong because no special attack is going to 2HKO it (same logic!). Munchlax still has pokemon which can switch into it, and we may see a rise in Fighting-type pokemon with this introduction. If you cannot seem to put it into a characteristic than it cannot be very broken then can it! Honestly when I was playing matches with Berry Juice Munchlax was not on the list at all of pokemon that are threatening.

Phanpy:I know, I know. It's Phanpy. I'm just going to say, that with 48 HP, Stealth Rock is really easy to set. If the Pokemon somehow did over 25 damage to Phanpy (like, a lucky Overheat Houndour can OHKO it...that's it) then that's unfortunate, but that doesn't really happen. The opposing Pokemon will have a ton of trouble even with Phanpy losing as turn to Stealth Rock! For example, Voltorb 3HKOes (yes, 3 Super effective Hidden Powers on base 10 SpD) Phanpy, so Phanpy can Stealth Rock, Earthquake, then Ice Shard and still have like 34% HP left. That's enough to take a good chunk of another Pokemon. You can tell it's not the Pokemon being broken in this situation...heh.

Then you simply OHKO Phanpy with a faster pokemon. Just because now Phapny is now better than the old leads, it does not mean it will be better with a rise of new leads. I would also like to mention that Snover completely crushes your Phanpy.

I think that Dratini and Wynaut are the only pokemon that are too strong right now, I'm unsure of Bagon because of it's base 50 Speed stat, which leaves it open to revenge by a lot of other pokemon, and Bagon lacks priority.

 

[Heysup]

It's really kind of irksome that you're saying Munchlax is too strong because it can take a hit, that is pretty much saying that Blissey is too strong because no special attack is going to 2HKO it (same logic!). Munchlax still has pokemon which can switch into it, and we may see a rise in Fighting-type pokemon with this introduction. If you cannot seem to put it into a characteristic than it cannot be very broken then can it! Honestly when I was playing matches with Berry Juice Munchlax was not on the list at all of pokemon that are threatening.

Examples? My point was: barely anything can switch in. If I need to put it into a Characteristic it would either be offensive or a more LC friendly variant of the defensive Characteristic.

Then you simply OHKO Phanpy with a faster pokemon. Just because now Phapny is now better than the old leads, it does not mean it will be better with a rise of new leads. I would also like to mention that Snover completely crushes your Phanpy.

Snover does, but those are a) extremely rare, and b) force you to use Hail. There are few Pokemon who function in the lead position who can OHKO Phanpy.

I think that Dratini and Wynaut are the only pokemon that are too strong right now, I'm unsure of Bagon because of it's base 50 Speed stat, which leaves it open to revenge by a lot of other pokemon, and Bagon lacks priority.

That's after 4 days. Just wait.

And btw, "only" having enough speed to outspeed everything after a DD is not an argument for it being not-broken.

 

[Banryu]

...um... are other people allowed to post in here too...? ._. Yes? Well if not you can delete me, but...

I haven't done much with it yet, as I've only just been playing a new team I've been testing, but the biggest thing I'm noticing is that it feels like it's monopolizing the field in terms of held items. It allows holders to turn 2HKOs into 3HKOs and so on, allowing them to outlast Life Orbers and especially Choice Scarfers, completely taking away the effectiveness of the latter... (I was using a Trick Room team packed with Oran Berries, and then Juice as I learned of its legality; when I went up against a team packing 5 Choice Scarves it was no contest at all, I destroyed him without hardly trying.) Not that my opinion matters much to you guys, but based on what I've seen so far, I'd definitely call this broken according to the definition put forth.

 

[Heysup]

Testing things is nearly impossible lately, for one reason. There are 15-20 (maybe) actually "good" Pokemon in the metagame at the moment. That's barely anything. The 20 Pokemon consist of the suspects, almost suspects, and some counters.

This is where I think "Find 5 broken Pokemon" is a seriously flawed concept when talking about something as big as Berry Juice. It's nearly impossible to do when the metagame itself is broken limiting you to the use of a select few Pokemon.

And please don't use an "I use this and that, so there are more than 20", because there really aren't much more than that and it's irrelevant what 'you' use. Whoever you may be...

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Mantyke is hilariously good right now, by the way. With Berry Juice, it takes attacks like an absolute monster with a great typing, defenses, and top-notch power.

Also, Omanyte is extremely effective as a lead with the following set:

Omanyte @ Berry Juice
Ability: Shell Armor
Nature: Modest
EVs: 76 HP / 116 Def / 76 Spe / 196 SAtk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Stealth Rock

With 19 Special Attack and 21/18/12 defenses, This beats or is neutral with so many leads that it's not even funny. The only leads that can solidly "beat" it are specific anti-leads such as Machop and Voltorb that don't really attempt to set anything up.

Earth Power can go over any of the moves, for the most part. However, without HP Electric you lose to Mantyke, without Ice Beam you lose to Dratini, without Surf you might as well not use a Water-type. It's a matter of preference, though.

 

[Heysup]

Omanyte is the definition of an anti-metagame lead at the moment. It beats a lot of the standards and doesn't lose too badly to anything (as in, it gets SR up but is still forced out). Though in time I think it will just get metagamed like Phanpy was by Omanyte.

I will also vouch for Mantyke being awesome, even if it only has a 50% chance to OHKO Bulky Tini with Ice Beam.

 

[Banryu]

Testing things is nearly impossible lately, for one reason. There are 15-20 (maybe) actually "good" Pokemon in the metagame at the moment. That's barely anything. The 20 Pokemon consist of the suspects, almost suspects, and some counters.

This is where I think "Find 5 broken Pokemon" is a seriously flawed concept when talking about something as big as Berry Juice. It's nearly impossible to do when the metagame itself is broken limiting you to the use of a select few Pokemon.

And please don't use an "I use this and that, so there are more than 20", because there really aren't much more than that and it's irrelevant what 'you' use. Whoever you may be...

If by the 'metagame at the moment' you mean with the inclusion of Berry Juice, then I totally agree. I was trying to touch on that, actually, but I wasn't sure how to say it. o_o So I'm glad you kinda said it for me.

Yeah, that's the other huge problem... Virtually all the BL and UU Little Cuppers are rendered nigh-useless by the addition of Berry Juice bulking everything up. Things like Gible, Buneary, Wailmer, etc. lose 99% of their effectiveness when they can't 2HKO things with their Scarves, not to mention all of the other sets which rely on a certain item that are made inviable. Life Orbers, Guts-Flame Orbers, etc. all suffer and ultimately lose out against something holding Berry Juice, particularly because when there are so few viable options anyway. Does that make sense?

Ehh, in any case, I'm not finding the current metagame to be much fun. I'll take up LC again when something happens about getting rid of Berry Juice. >.>

 

[Matthew]

Testing things is nearly impossible lately, for one reason. There are 15-20 (maybe) actually "good" Pokemon in the metagame at the moment. That's barely anything. The 20 Pokemon consist of the suspects, almost suspects, and some counters.

ok first off, the first thing is we're testing the pokemon which are extremely good with Berry Juice, that is what the testing is at the moment. So those 15-20 pokemon which you are suggesting are too strong (I would like a list please too) are all up for being truly suspect. Right now whenever I play all I see is Wynaut, Dratini, and Misdreavus, those are the two new suspects and a previous one. Right now I'm only seeing 17 out of 20 pokemon that are suspects. Sure Bagon may prove to be too strong, but no one is using it at the moment with Dratini still able to use. As for the almost suspects, that is irrelevant, as you're supposed to use the best of the best to win, whether that means the pokemon are almost broken and not just quite there, that does not determine if Berry Juice itself is broken or not. As for the counter comment, you ran counters to the top sweepers in the pre-Berry Juice metagame, I don't see why that would change with Berry Juice.

This is where I think "Find 5 broken Pokemon" is a seriously flawed concept when talking about something as big as Berry Juice. It's nearly impossible to do when the metagame itself is broken limiting you to the use of a select few Pokemon.

Those select few pokemon are known as 'Ubers', or too good, the metagame is obviously going to revolve around the most broken pokemon, or the top sweeper.

And please don't use an "I use this and that, so there are more than 20", because there really aren't much more than that and it's irrelevant what 'you' use. Whoever you may be...

I love the shot at me, but right now you did just say 20 without backing up anything. This is a brand new metagame, of course there will be new suspects which the metagame revolves around, Take Gligar for instance. Gligar used to be on almost every team, yet in this new Berry Juice metagame he is no where to be seen, that doesn't comment on whether he is more or less broken, but if a pokemon which was used on almost every team is now outclassed, it's obviously a much different metagame.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Dratini and Wynaut will be banned from the ladder soon due to being too powerful when used in tandem with Berry Juice. Round 2 of testing starts now.

 

[little gk]

With Wynaut gone Mankey has really really been awesome. This is especially since he can outspeed +2 aron with a scarf and +1 babroach (might be +2 i don't really remember) Part of this is probably the fact that neither slowpoke or gligar have been around much since they're the best things that can switch in to him now.

 

[franky]

This metagame is unstable right now. I could be wrong, only laddered for 2 days and I'm loosing more than pre-berry. I don't know, maybe I need to adjust but its definitely broken right now for me.

 

[Matthew]

With the removal of Dratini and Wynaut the metagame has gotten extremely enjoyable. Nothing is outright broken, though their may be a pokemon or two, namely Krabby and Bagon. Bagon hasn't been too strong in my experiences with it. It has done almost nothing in terms of sweeping, and maybe it will get rid of one pokemon max. Krabby itself is dangerous, especially the Agility Swords Dance set which, if you can set up, is almost impossible to stop. Though setting it up is hard, and priority still can stop it from sweeping rather easily (Croagunk's Vaccum Wave for instance, or a Houndour's Sucker Punch at around 50%). So I'm torn on the matter of Krabby, either it does really well or nothing at all which is really a kind of "=/" feeling for me.

 

[Heysup]

Krabby was definitely next on my list, it's defense, Speed, and and 22 Atk are pretty well out of control. Try using it with Diglett, who can beat out most priority users.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with Wynaut gone. This will either pwn the metagame, or balance it out a ton.

I do have a question though:

Why are Dratini and Wynaut banned before Missy and Gligar? I mean, they are definitely more broken than Dratini, and probably at the same level as Wynaut.

Gligar is almost impossible to OHKO without using a Scarfed Ice Beam, and we all know how rare that is / hard it is to use in this metagame. With either a SD / RP (BP or not) set, or a flat out SD set, Gligar is almost impossible to stop. Misdreavus is similar, but has better coverage etc.

And furthermore, do they count towards the "5" now?

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

1: Dratini and Wynaut were the most common and most obviously broken.

2: Misdreavus has issues standing up to boosted physical attacks (most attacks in the metagame), and Gligar is simply outclassed. Krabby has less weaknesses and more power than Rock Polish Gligar, and Dragon Dancers like Larvitar, Bagon, and Barboach can boost both Attack and Speed in a single move, making it *much* easier to sweep after a single boost.

3: Since Gligar and Misdreavus were suspects pre-Berry Juice, they do not count toward the 5. Gligar's the only one that "might", and that's iffy.

 

[Black Buddha]

Berry Juice is turning out to be great for ghosts like Duskull. Also I love just abusing Hail and Burn on my team to lower HP below half without the Juice activating due to the Shoddy Glitch. It might be considered chep, but whatever, there are much cheaper tactics out there

Of course, its was then endlessly awesome to clean up with a Dratini of my own.

Yeah, apatr from Wynaut and Tini I dont see much else that is broken here, maybe Bagon, but it wont be easy finding a free set up turn methinks, especially with Wynaut gone.

 

[[Hero]]

Rock Polish Gligar is just amazingly overpowered with the inclusion of Berry Juice. It can setup on almost all of the metagame thanks to Berry Juice and it's resistances. With it's 23/17/13 defences it's taking a few hits too.

I do think that removing certain Pokemon from the ladder is pointless. But thats just my two cents.

With Wynaut being the centre of the CCAT, and the addition of Berry Juice, what will be happening to the CCAT? If Berry Juice is voted to stay in the metagame then it becomes obvious that Wynaut needs to be banned...

 

[Matthew]

Rock Polish Gligar is just amazingly overpowered with the inclusion of Berry Juice. It can setup on almost all of the metagame thanks to Berry Juice and it's resistances. With it's 23/17/13 defences it's taking a few hits too.

I do think that removing certain Pokemon from the ladder is pointless. But thats just my two cents.

With Wynaut being the centre of the CCAT, and the addition of Berry Juice, what will be happening to the CCAT? If Berry Juice is voted to stay in the metagame then it becomes obvious that Wynaut needs to be banned...

I think the problem with Rock Polish Gligar is that all the 2HKOes it used to get are now nonexistant with Berry Juice. Gligar without Swords Dance or a Life Orb just doesn't hit hard enough, and Life Orb removes the survivability of Rock Polish Gligar. On a similar note Swords Dance Gligar really got a boost in power, it's a fantastic wall breaker and can even sweep if the opponent's Choice Scarf user is gone.

 

[franky]

I've yet to try out a dual screen team, in theory it could work and could be broken with Berry Juice.

 

[Banryu]

Berry Juice is turning out to be great for ghosts like Duskull. Also I love just abusing Hail and Burn on my team to lower HP below half without the Juice activating due to the Shoddy Glitch. It might be considered chep, but whatever, there are much cheaper tactics out there

. . . >:[ Really? Like what else could be considered cheaper than that? Go on, I'm listening...

Keh, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Black Buddha]

Excuse me but Banryu, if you call taking advantage of Hail + Burn + SR cheap enough to be ashmaed off, id like to see you try and pull a semi stall team off in the current Offensive Metagame

Its qiute hard to run 4 walls on your team and rely on one scarfer + one cleanup to win in LC, unlike Stall in OU which is arguably the most sure shot way of getting wins

So yeah, if you don't even see the full situation, I dont think you have the right to criticize others

 

[Maris]

Im wondering if we should look at totodile. With aqua jet and DD it is like a dratini with a 60 power priority move. Its probably not broken, but it should be semi considered.

 

[zarator]

Excuse me but Banryu, if you call taking advantage of Hail + Burn + SR cheap enough to be ashmaed off, id like to see you try and pull a semi stall team off in the current Offensive Metagame

Its qiute hard to run 4 walls on your team and rely on one scarfer + one cleanup to win in LC, unlike Stall in OU which is arguably the most sure shot way of getting wins

So yeah, if you don't even see the full situation, I dont think you have the right to criticize others

I think he deems it cheap because it abuses a glitch in Shoddy... just my 2 cents.

 

[Kannon]

I like the fact that berry juice opens up the possibilities of things like SD/Agility Krabby and such where a pokemon doesn't have to worry so much about damage when it's sweeping. LC with Berry Juice is like a completely different metagame and it's very fun to play.