NP: LC - Juiced

[Banryu]

Excuse me but Banryu, if you call taking advantage of Hail + Burn + SR cheap enough to be ashmaed off, id like to see you try and pull a semi stall team off in the current Offensive Metagame

Its qiute hard to run 4 walls on your team and rely on one scarfer + one cleanup to win in LC, unlike Stall in OU which is arguably the most sure shot way of getting wins

So yeah, if you don't even see the full situation, I dont think you have the right to criticize others

I'm not saying you're chap because you use Stall in LC, I'm calling you cheap because you rely on a glitch to keep the opponent's Berry Juice from activating and healing him, if my understanding of what you'd said is correct. So basically, zarator is right, yeah.

As it is, I would not attempt to do that because a) I've never liked stall teams, and 2) I'm not happy with the current metagame anyway, so I'm not playing LC at all right now.


I think it's great that guys like Krabby and Omanyte and such are getting the chance to shine, but I'm still concerned at how inviable other item-based strategies remain, and in consequence, how useless over half the rest of LC competitors are rendered. Berry Juice throws off the metagame too much.

Oh, and here's something interesting I found out that I didn't know before. Did you all know that Berry Juice was banned in the ORIGINAL Little Cup when GS first came out? o_0

 

[Maris]

Well you guys know that krabby with max hp has 22 hp. That means that it still would have swept in LC with oran berry. just no one used it.

 

[Heysup]

I'd like to officially bring up Bagon right now, it's terribly hard to beat at the moment, using this variant:

Bagon (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 156 Atk/36 Def/196 Spd/116 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Fang
- Hydro Pump / Outrage.
---

With these EVs and minimal support, Bagon is essentially guaranteed at least 2 Dragon Dances with Berry Juice. I played 15 matches with a team i made (I just plugged Bagon into my "normal" team (though i used a different lead)) and lost one due to Bagon getting Paralyzed by an Elekid's static. So if you want to be technical, the best Bagon check I had seen in those matches is Elekid who has a 10% to check Bagon.

My matches all played out practically the same. On turn 4 (After Reflect, Light Screen, and Encore), I just Dragon Danced a minimum of 2 times, and started OHKOing shit with Dragon Claw. Aron is shot down in flames by Hydro Pump over half of the time, but if you run Bagon with Screen support (highly recommended), you don't even need to use Hydro Pump because you 2HKO Aron with Dragon Claw + Outrage. Bronzor is obviously Fire Fanged to death while also not being able to do shit to Bagon at all.

All in all I'd say Bagon is definitely a candidate for suspect / ban status.

Krabby is pretty damn unstoppable too, but it's not as clear as Bagon atm.

 

[Dubulous]

Well you guys know that krabby with max hp has 22 hp. That means that it still would have swept in LC with oran berry. just no one used it.

The fact that it can fully heal itself no matter how big of a hit it takes helps it out tremendously. With Oran it would only be able to heal about half of its Max HP, which left it at about 13 or 14 hp most of the time. With Berry Juice it guarantees two turns of set up (an Agility and a Swords Dance) at which point the only thing that can take it out is priority.

 

[little gk]

Bagon is really a force right now, especially when using encore users to open up some turns of set-up. After doing so there isn't much you can do as you're going to get swept.

Krabby has been doing extremely well also because Berry Juice is letting him use his defenses while he's setting up. He was good before this, but now he's tearing things apart although Chinchou can stop him fairly well

 

[Maris]

gahh i remember facing your bagon. and exploting the elekid. That bagon can be beaten by a scarfer or a priority user like ghastly.

 

[Heysup]

What Scarfer can outspeed Bagon after 2 DDs? Diglett? Elekid? Yes use Scarf Elekid so I can set up Gligar for free. Though Diglett is a decent scarfer now since everything hits 28 Spe, and Chinchou is showing up.

 

[Matthew]

gahh i remember facing your bagon. and exploting the elekid. That bagon can be beaten by a scarfer or a priority user like ghastly.

Actually after playing Heysup's DS Bagon team I would have to agree that Bagon is maybe a bit too strong with such support, though without it Bagon is still just above average.

Krabby has counters, being Snover and Chinchou off the top of my head. Though pokemon such as Turtwig can also survive the Return and hit back with a STAB Grass-type move.

 

[Heysup]

Actually after playing Heysup's DS Bagon team I would have to agree that Bagon is maybe a bit too strong with such support, though without it Bagon is still just above average.

Krabby has counters, being Snover and Chinchou off the top of my head. Though pokemon such as Turtwig can also survive the Return and hit back with a STAB Grass-type move.

If we agree Bagon is broken under those conditions which, lets face it, are stupid easy to set up, Bagon should really be banned. Unless we want to ban Abra, Bronzor, Turtwig, <anything with Screens>, I think we are almost forced to ban Bagon. It fulfills the offensive characteristic perfectly. Little Cup doesn't really have an answer to dual screen + Berry Juice at the moment, and Bagon abuses that like no other.

Even against the best players of LC (yourself included), I had no trouble setting up Bagon and ripping apart most of their team (you had weather, so I only managed to KO like 4 Pokemon ^_^ before I was in KO range from Sucker Punch).

 

[Matthew]

If we agree Bagon is broken under those conditions which, lets face it, are stupid easy to set up, Bagon should really be banned. Unless we want to ban Abra, Bronzor, Turtwig, <anything with Screens>, I think we are almost forced to ban Bagon. It fulfills the offensive characteristic perfectly. Little Cup doesn't really have an answer to dual screen + Berry Juice at the moment, and Bagon abuses that like no other.

Even against the best players of LC (yourself included), I had no trouble setting up Bagon and ripping apart most of their team (you had weather, so I only managed to KO like 4 Pokemon ^_^ before I was in KO range from Sucker Punch).

My question is more of a question to everyone, but after we ban Bagon, are there any other pokemon in the Berry Juice metagame that are too strong? I know some of you have complained about Snover, but he can be handled by a Fire-type or even a Steel-type like Bronzor, not to mention Munchlax. Barboach really needs a minimum of 2DD's to hurt anyone. Chinchou can be beaten with Munchlax (though he is a crafty bastard), while Krabby has some very solid counters.

Honestly if there are no more pokmeon which are too powerful in the metagame then I would propose we keep Berry Juice, and rightfully test the new suspects which are: Bagon, Dratini, and Wynaut and we of course we will test the old ones to which are: Misdreavus, Gligar, Yanma, Meditite, and Clamperl (and possibly Murkrow given if enough people want it tested).

 

[v]

guys look i found smogon!!

My experiences with Berry Juice have been interesting, to say the least. On the question of whether it's broken or not, I don't have a definite stance as of now. Intellectually, I believe that it is wrong on principle to ban an item that all Pokemon have access to, but I will not allow that to affect my vote if I am granted one.

Some old favorites of mine have taken a huge hit with the introduction of Berry Juice, namely Elekid, Anorith and Carvanha. These three relied on their ability to 2HKO most opposing Pokemon. Thanks to Berry Juice nearly eliminating such circumtances, this is no longer the case. Elekid is basically a non-issue, particularly with all of the stat-boosting going around. It's simply outclassed. Anorith cannot compete with Krabby, Chinchou and Mantyke for speed boosting anymore -- their better typings, movepool and defensive stats make it an inferior choice on all fronts. Phanpy solidly outclasses it as a SR lead and Squirtle remains the best spinner, though whether you want to spin in this environment is questionable, at best,

Set-up becoming more powerful is a little irksome to me, as the metagame has become "set up or die." Choice Scarf is rarely used in favor of speed boosters, just because there is virtually no risk involved due to Berry Juice. Formerly, the lack of a turn of set-up and additional moveslot were choice items' main attraction, but because Berry Juice has all but removed the turn of set-up's weakness (being put into KO range for Priority) it makes it almost too easy to sweep.

On the question of Bagon, I am not entirely certain that it warrants a ban or test. The fact of the matter is that, with Dual Screens, nearly everything in the metagame can set up, not just Bagon. Bronzor can, barring the use of Taunt, set up Dual Screens. I would therefore like to remove it from the Berry Juice metagame. With DS up, things like Krabby have literally nothing stopping them from setting up and destroying the opposing team. As it's been said numerous times, SD/Agility/Crabhammer/Return simply cannot be stopped with Dual Screens up. Magnemite, while not always as effective as Bronzor is, can explode after setting up its screens. A free switch-in to dual screens is game, basically.

A strategy I'd like to talk that's been working for me is also on the edge imo: Gligar BP to Poliwag. This takes no luck or skill whatsoever. Bring Gligar in on a Choice Scarfed Mankey or something. As they switch out, Rock Polish. After that, they infalliably bring something like Krabby in. BP to Poliwag, who encores their agility or crabhammer of what have you and then Belly Drums. 38 speed, 48 attack, gg. It works, seriously. Factor in an easy DS and you've won.

 

[little gk]

With Berry Juice, Bronzor has become very very very consistent in set-up of dual screens. Its set up just allows whatever you want to set up, be it mantyke, chinchou, or any of set up sweeper. I'd like to back Vader in his request to remove it from the Berry Juice metagame for this reason, filling the support charictaristsic easiley.

 

[Heysup]

My question is more of a question to everyone, but after we ban Bagon, are there any other pokemon in the Berry Juice metagame that are too strong? I know some of you have complained about Snover, but he can be handled by a Fire-type or even a Steel-type like Bronzor, not to mention Munchlax. Barboach really needs a minimum of 2DD's to hurt anyone. Chinchou can be beaten with Munchlax (though he is a crafty bastard), while Krabby has some very solid counters.

Honestly if there are no more pokmeon which are too powerful in the metagame then I would propose we keep Berry Juice, and rightfully test the new suspects which are: Bagon, Dratini, and Wynaut and we of course we will test the old ones to which are: Misdreavus, Gligar, Yanma, Meditite, and Clamperl (and possibly Murkrow given if enough people want it tested).

We are too close to having the "5 broken Pokemon" in the metagame in too little amount of time to say "OK Cut-off time". Right now I'm actually find many many Pokemon do similar things Bagon is doing with this set up. This is what I've been thinking pre-Bjuice: do we have an answer to these set up Pokemon that will run rampant? And unfortunately for Berry Juice, I don't believe we do. It's simply "too" good on a select few Pokemon imo, and in due time (actually, now), I'm sure there will be more "discoveries" of broken Pokemon. The Ubers list is going to get a little ridiculous soon.

A good example of this "discovery" thing I was talking about is the current Dual Screen + Set up sweeper strategy. We can't ban the best screeners or the best stat uppers, because then we would have reached our 5 limit. Just my thoughts anyway.


@GK:

With Berry Juice, Bronzor has become very very very consistent in set-up of dual screens. Its set up just allows whatever you want to set up, be it mantyke, chinchou, or any of set up sweeper. I'd like to back Vader in his request to remove it from the Berry Juice metagame for this reason, filling the support charictaristsic easiley.

I addressed this. We can't just ban Bronzor, because there are so many Pokemon who set up Screens just as (if not more) reliable as it. If we ban Bronzor, there is no reason we shouldn't also ban Pokemon like Abra and Turtwig.

It's becoming almost overwhelming that we NEED to do something about either Dual Screens, or Pokemon like Chinchou, Krabby, Bagon, Mantyke, Bellywag etc. Either way, it seems like we are getting closer and closer to our limit. I guess it's a matter of what we want to look at more: the support characteristic or the offensive characteristic.

The metagame is essentially exploding with bannable Pokemon now.

 

[Banryu]

One argument that can be made in favor of Berry Juice, and which could also make Choice Scarves still somewhat viable, is the use of moves like Trick, Knock Off, etc. I actually made a team based around these moves, and it seems to be a fairly effective anti-juice strategy. Trick a Scarf onto something like Krabby, stealing his Berry Juice, and switch into a Water absorber like Mantyke, Paras, Croagunk etc if it uses Crahammer or a Ghost-type if it is is using Return, and so on. The lead Shuppet on this team actually singlehandedly managed to rob his foes of 2-3 juices in one game. Knock Off on guys like Anorith also helped.

Having said that, I still feel that Berry Juice is broken and should be banned, but I also thought that should be mentioned.

 

[Heysup]

One argument that can be made in favor of Berry Juice, and which could also make Choice Scarves still somewhat viable, is the use of moves like Trick, Knock Off, etc. I actually made a team based around these moves, and it seems to be a fairly effective anti-juice strategy. Trick a Scarf onto something like Krabby, stealing his Berry Juice, and switch into a Water absorber like Mantyke, Paras, Croagunk etc if it uses Crahammer or a Ghost-type if it is is using Return, and so on. The lead Shuppet on this team actually singlehandedly managed to rob his foes of 2-3 juices in one game. Knock Off on guys like Anorith also helped.

Having said that, I still feel that Berry Juice is broken and should be banned, but I also thought that should be mentioned.

Trick a scarf onto a +2 atk Krabby? Great idea! Knock Off does shit all. You are better off attempting to 2HKO rather than Knocking off a berry juice, it takes the same amount of time. So Bagon will still set up like 2-3 DDs on your Lickitung / Anorith.

I sort of read on IRC that Berry Juice is in fact being banned? Could someone clarify / post about it here?

 

[Banryu]

Trick a scarf onto a +2 atk Krabby? Great idea! Knock Off does shit all. You are better off attempting to 2HKO rather than Knocking off a berry juice, it takes the same amount of time. So Bagon will still set up like 2-3 DDs on your Lickitung / Anorith.

I sort of read on IRC that Berry Juice is in fact being banned? Could someone clarify / post about it here?

Like I said, you can pull that off without getting touched if you do it right. >.> Do it while he Agilitys or SDs, and he's stuck on that and forced to switch, Berry Juice gone, sweep ruined. Do it on Waterfall or Return, an your Tricker is toast, but you can switch in someone immune to either move, still ending the sweep.

Yes, I heard that as well, and I too would like some clarification in this matter... let the ordeal be over already. D:

 

[Heysup]

Like I said, you can pull that off without getting touched if you do it right. >.> Do it while he Agilitys or SDs, and he's stuck on that and forced to switch, Berry Juice gone, sweep ruined. Do it on Waterfall or Return, an your Tricker is toast, but you can switch in someone immune to either move, still ending the sweep.

Yes, I heard that as well, and I too would like some clarification in this matter... let the ordeal be over already. D:

That's a big if. If you screw up (aka come in on an Agility), you basically lose.

 

[Banryu]

That's a big if. If you screw up (aka come in on an Agility), you basically lose.

Well, then chances are that without a SD, the Krabby won't be strong enough to OHKO, (depending on the scarf-tricker) in which case you can still catch it locked into a move and potentially prevent it from sweeping. But yes, that's right, if you mess it up then you're screwed.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yeah. Between Doug getting tired of banning fucktons of stuff (which would be necessary to continue testing) and the idea that dual screens probably would either need to be broken, limited, or have the best users banned, in addition to an impromptu vote from the vast majority of the community that Berry Juice should be banned, it was obvious how this would end. To take some of the strain off of Doug and allow us to move on with real testing, the official decision has been reached.

Berry Juice has been banned. Please remove it from your teams. Anyone using it on the ladder before the implementation of Berry Juice clause may be kicked from the server. As a result, Wynaut, Dratini, and Bagon have been unbanned. You may use Bagon, and Wynaut and Dratini will be unbanned when the CAP server is updated.

At the moment Berry Juice is still allowed on the ladder while Dratini and Wynaut are still banned. For the time being please remove Berry Juice from your teams, if you see someone using it report it to a Mod or a Driver, who will ask the person to forfeit the match and fix its team. If they do not reply they will be kicked.