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Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)
- Thread starter Raseri
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YES YES YES HAZARD TIME
BUT SRSLY GUYS RAIN
the problem with Musharna wasn't really dark-types, she just struggled to find a niche with all the other Psychic-types around. Musharna doesn't have much of a niche with Uxie and Mesprit around.
I'd also like to announce that NU is out of Beta now. The ladder on showdown has had the beta tag removed :) However, I'm going to keep using this thread to discuss the metagame until the Combusken test is over, purely for convenience.
Also, some news regarding the Combusken test: As the tier shifts didn't really change the metagame to much, we will be proceeding with the vote soon. The NU Staff will be choosing the council very soon :) So for people that want to be a part of it, make sure you are active in this thread! And all over NU!!!
With Shiftry gone, hazards are bound to get even better than they already were. Another thing to look at possibly rising up in usage would be Mesprit, in particular, its offensive sets as it absolutely hated Sucker Punch from Shiftry. It's got the coverage, it's got decent enough bulk to work with, and Mesprit also has the power after a CM boost. Can't wait to test this out in theory.
The only problem I see with this is that Mesprit still gets slayed by a very common offensive threat, Pawniard. Pawniard is still a huge threat, even with Shiftry (aka pawniard setup fodder) gone. Pawn's defensive typing is still a godsend to the tier, resulting in easy setups and only a couple mons that win 1v1s with it safely (most prominently poliwrath and weezing). While I believe Mesprit is a great mon with the loss of shiftry, it has 2 checks/counters in SPiritomb and Pawniard, leaving still witha bit to be desired.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb: 230-272 (75.6 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 252-298 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
The cool thing about SpecSprit is depending on the coverage you run, neither of those want to switch in. Even with a Life Orb, you solidly 2HKO either one, and with just a little bit of wear and tear make it so that they really don't want to be switching into your coverage moves. After switching in, you basically force both into 50/50 mindgames, where they need to choose to hit you with priority or a potential Pursuit / Knock Off, and should they choose wrong you either get a kill, or a solid 80% + healthy Mesprit! Personally, I am enjoying running Psychic / Dazzling Gleam / Hidden Power [Ground] / Trick or Healing Wish, as it lets me have STAB, a method of hitting Dark Types SE, as well as a way to pressure the likes of Pawniard, Klinklang, and Probopass so that they find it impossible to set up.
Overall, Mesprit with the right coverage and predictions has no true switch ins, as even on SDef walls it can easily Sub Down and start CM'ing, or shut it down with a Trick Scarf. Again, depending on the set, Mesprit is versatile enough that it doesn't have easy switches into it.
On a non-mesprit related note, can we change the name of this tier to the rise of cacturne
y/y
y/y
On a serious note cacturne might actually see some usage now?
Some of my thoughts:
A rise in the already popular Feraligatr as a late game sweeper as shiftry was very useful in taking care of this even at +2.
A rise in the use of mismagius since shiftry resisted it's stab and most of it's coverage moves (except maybe dazzling gleam) but even then you could get out predicted with the sucker punch mind games. I've been using mismagius and havent lost yet on the new ladder. Saying that, is dazzling gleam still the best coverage move? Since the other prominent dark types liepard and spiritomb can be dealt with using a +2 shadow ball or thunderbolt.
Perhaps a rise in the use of sneasel to replace the powerful knock off's of shiftry (I've been using this as well to great effect).
Anyway just my two cents
Some of my thoughts:
A rise in the already popular Feraligatr as a late game sweeper as shiftry was very useful in taking care of this even at +2.
A rise in the use of mismagius since shiftry resisted it's stab and most of it's coverage moves (except maybe dazzling gleam) but even then you could get out predicted with the sucker punch mind games. I've been using mismagius and havent lost yet on the new ladder. Saying that, is dazzling gleam still the best coverage move? Since the other prominent dark types liepard and spiritomb can be dealt with using a +2 shadow ball or thunderbolt.
Perhaps a rise in the use of sneasel to replace the powerful knock off's of shiftry (I've been using this as well to great effect).
Anyway just my two cents
The problem with Cacturne is that Gatr naturally outspeeds it and unless you invest in max speed and gatr is uninvested in speed you will get outsped and be killed by Ice Punch. If Cacturne had a higher base speed I would use it a lot more often because of the fact you can go special or physical (having both 115 in both base attack stats). I agree Missy will probably rise in usage because with the departure of Shiftry one of its biggest checks is gone. However Spiritomb is still very common and I think it should continue to run Dazzling Gleam to hit that hard on the switch.
Combusken + Cacturne though.
Yeah spiritomb is a major issue still so dazzling gleam is still preferred. Mismagius is scared of Spiritomb especially because of infiltrator so even submagius cannot hide from a sucker punch.
This is out of the box but a few of us in the PS! NU room had a discussion about HP Fire Gatr. If not adamant it 2HKO's ferroseed majority of the time. 0 SpA Life Orb Feraligatr Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 114-135 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO. The rise in gatr use post shiftry may cause a large rise in ferroseed use and this could actually be a viable option.
I feel like Hidden Power Fire is a neat lure, but what else would it hit? Where would it fit the move on its set? Also, that's not the correct set, that's the LC spread, with 252/4 it's a guaranteed 2HKO if not -SpA, for the record. It could be cool to lure in Ferroseed, but I feel as if in a whole it sacrifices coverage, which could be better left to a teammate to take on. Certainly interesting, though.
Yeah, because Gatr totally doesn't know any strong Fighting attacks (which get boosted) to clobber Ferroseed anyway. And if you say that Seed Bomb Ferroseed beats Superpower Gatr, it also beats HP Fire Gatr, except Ferroseed can survive the 2HKO should it use Leech Seed, while +1 LO Superpower Gatr can beat Ferro within an inch of its life and still be useful against other targets like Audino and Barbaracle etc.
A good ferroseed lure i've ben using is
Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Atk
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Fire Punch
- Heal Bell
- Roar / Thunder Wave / Earthquake
Using Fire punch makes granbull less of a spikes fodder as it 2hkos fully physically defensive ferroseed most of the time after rock damage. There is also the benefit of doing a little bit more to Vileplume. Obviously you can't hit fire types but most of them won't switch in fearing eq anyway
Roar is kinda needed with fire punch or combusken shits on you even more
Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Atk
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Fire Punch
- Heal Bell
- Roar / Thunder Wave / Earthquake
Using Fire punch makes granbull less of a spikes fodder as it 2hkos fully physically defensive ferroseed most of the time after rock damage. There is also the benefit of doing a little bit more to Vileplume. Obviously you can't hit fire types but most of them won't switch in fearing eq anyway
Roar is kinda needed with fire punch or combusken shits on you even more
If we're talking about Ferroseed lures, here's something that I've been having fun with lately:
Gogoat @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk / 72 SpA / 184 SpD
Brave Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Horn Leech
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
With 72 SpAtk EV's Gogoat 2HKO's Ferroseed around 90% of the time without rocks and always 2HKO's with rocks up. It's also extremely bulky with the Assault Vest on and can live some extremely hard special hits at full health. This set can take on FerroToad and Ferroalge, however it still has trouble with Vileplume
72 SpA Gogoat Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 140-168 (47.9 - 57.5%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO
and an impractical calc just to show off bulk:
252 SpA Choice Specs Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 184 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 338-402 (87.3 - 103.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Gogoat @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk / 72 SpA / 184 SpD
Brave Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Horn Leech
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
With 72 SpAtk EV's Gogoat 2HKO's Ferroseed around 90% of the time without rocks and always 2HKO's with rocks up. It's also extremely bulky with the Assault Vest on and can live some extremely hard special hits at full health. This set can take on FerroToad and Ferroalge, however it still has trouble with Vileplume
72 SpA Gogoat Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 140-168 (47.9 - 57.5%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO
and an impractical calc just to show off bulk:
252 SpA Choice Specs Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 184 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat: 338-402 (87.3 - 103.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
While Xatu is the perfect partner for Combusken letting it get around conventional counters to Baton Pass, Combusken can also pass to other Pokemon (like Kangaskhan and Gatr) and still be really effective. I don't know if you are suggesting a complex ban or what but here on smogon the complex ban solution is only taken into consideration when the problem can't be solved in any other manner (think about the bp clause in ou).
Basically what we're saying is that xatu isn't the only good recipient, the user of busken can choose the appropriate BP recipient for the situation and that's what makes it so threatening.
Combuskens ability to pass speed boosts + defense + atk is crazy in nu. it has access to moves like fire punch and brick break to benefit from those boosts and if it has a bad matchup can just pass them to a teamm8 like stored power xatu which just wrecks after. by itself i don't feel it is a threat but its ability as a stat passer is what makes it deserve to be suspected!
Ehhh Venomoth was NU when it was banned from UU, lol.
I'll haven't really played NU in awhile, but from what I've seen from the NUPL replays, this thing look p bad :/
All in all, usage is never a factor, even if the usage is extremely low.
I'll haven't really played NU in awhile, but from what I've seen from the NUPL replays, this thing look p bad :/
All in all, usage is never a factor, even if the usage is extremely low.
I'm chill with proceeding with the vote soon, but I don't agree that Shiftry leaving didn't change things much.
Outside of being one of the most popular Pokemon in NU, Shiftry leaving changes things a lot for Combusken. Vileplume and Pawniard are both Pokemon that saw a decent amount of their usage because of Shiftry's presence in the metagame, and Combusken was so "dangerous" because it could set up on the common Shiftry, Vileplume, and Pawniard. With one of those three completely out of the meta and two of them likely seeing some drops in usage due to the lack of the first, I'm interested to see how well Combusken will fare.
I definitely still believe we should give it some more time in the metagame.
im way too lazy to make a huge wall, but Vileplume ( also used to check/counter Feraligatr/Gurdurr/etc.., was only a check to Shiftry as it can be OHKOed after SR by a +2 LO Knock Off) and Pawniard (the best Defiant user in NU) were not only used for Shiftry, if anything it was just a bonus that they could check it lol
edit: my english suck
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One thing I've noticed so far is that Combusken Pass has died down slightly, and most high ladder teams have efficient ways to deal with it. I had number 1 for a while by using it, but QueenOfLuvdiscs stall team was just too efficient in defeating baton pass that he took the throne and will have it for a long time, the way I see it. CombuskenPass has died down slightly, and I'll be honest, in all my time playing, I haven't faced it that often, maybe 1 in every 10 games. Still though, the fact that I was able to climb to number 1 with minimal effort is pathetic, and Busken has to go.
Also, on a not Chicken related note, Sun Teams are becoming a serious threat right now, with Chlorophyll Shiftry being gone. While Shiftry was here, it was on most non-sun teams, and would abuse the sun that other teams set up for it. With that non-intentional stop to sun gone, I think we can finally see pokemon like Victreebel, Exeggutor, Leafeon, Sawsbuck and Typhlosion climbing ladder in the rays of sun.
PS: I'm alt laddering with Sun as we speak on the alt "Vol Sun."
Also, on a not Chicken related note, Sun Teams are becoming a serious threat right now, with Chlorophyll Shiftry being gone. While Shiftry was here, it was on most non-sun teams, and would abuse the sun that other teams set up for it. With that non-intentional stop to sun gone, I think we can finally see pokemon like Victreebel, Exeggutor, Leafeon, Sawsbuck and Typhlosion climbing ladder in the rays of sun.
PS: I'm alt laddering with Sun as we speak on the alt "Vol Sun."
Yes, I know. None of them will become totally irrelevant in NU, but Shiftry's presence affected theirs as well.
The best Defiant user in NU is bound to become less popular when the best Defogger in NU just moved up, and with Combusken in the meta, which sets up on Pawniard, and without Shiftry in the meta, which was walled by Pawniard, its usage will probably drop. I've never thought Vileplume was very good anyways, so I'm probably exaggerating about it. But when something in the metagame threatens popular Pokemon a lot, it sees more usage. That's how the metagame fluctuates, and it can do it naturally with or without the help of bans and usage-based shifts, as it did when Combusken got popular out of no where and as it will again without Shiftry in the metagame. Combusken is a good support Pokemon, and it happened to be able to do its job really effectively in a metagame packed with things that can't threaten it much. But those things are either gone or should be less popular now (or should have never been popular to begin with). So let's see how people adapt.
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