Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)

[EonX]

Sun has all the tools it needs to succeed tbh. On my phone, so can't go much in-depth, but here's a quick breakdown as I see it

Setters: Uxie, Liepard, Mesprit, Volbeat
Abusers: Victreebel, Pyroar, Typhlosion, Exeggutor, Sawsbuck, Leafeon

 

[soulgazer]

The best Defiant user in NU is bound to become less popular when the best Defogger in NU just moved up, and with Combusken in the meta, which sets up on Pawniard, and without Shiftry in the meta, which was walled by Pawniard, its usage will probably drop.

dmg calc vs 0/0 Pawniard

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 84-100 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pawniard: 169-199 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Shiftry 2HKO 0/0 Pawniard, which in my experience is the most used spread (It needs Speed to beat some stuff).

dmg calc vs 252/0 Pawniard

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 84-100 (28.5 - 34%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO

SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pawniard: 169-199 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not 2HKOed 100% of the time, but if Pawniard switch on a Knock Off, Shiftry can easily just switch out and 2HKO is later as Pawniard can no longer switch on it.

So yeah I wouldnt say Pawniard walled Shiftry lol, but don't worry I know the main point of Pawniard is to obliviously force your opponent to not use Defog (I used Pawniard a lot for a while now). It does better against SD Shiftry , and honestly when I think of defoggers I think of Togetic or Vullaby. edit: what im trying to say with all of this is that Pawniard wasnt only good because of Shiftry

EDIT:

... as it did when Combusken got popular out of no where and as it will again without Shiftry in the metagame. Combusken is a good support Pokemon, and it happened to be able to do its job really effectively in a metagame packed with things that can't threaten it much. But those things are either gone or should be less popular now (or should have never been popular to begin with). So let's see how people adapt.

Combusken was really good back when Doublade, Virizion, and Durant were NU by the way, and has been good since (yes, even when Fletchinder was in the tier). I think I said it a few days ago, but I have been adapting since ~May and I seriously don't think one or two more week will be enough to adapt when Combusken can easily set up on its 'counters' with a little change in its set (Substitute>Attacking Move) or use different EV spread to set up on what you need it to set up on (Physically Defensive or Specially Defensive.. You can even make it Offensive with SD if you need it to be able to sweep too lol). Oh and don't make me start about all the teammates that can also support Combusken to make its job easier.

 

[Ares]

I think even with Shiftry leaving the tier there are still a ton of things in the tier that Combusken can set up on. And while things like Plume and some other things were used to counter Shiftry, I dont fore see their usage dropping because they were also used to check/counter various other things in the tier. As far as counters to Shiftry go, I didnt specifically put a certain counter on my team just for Shiftry, it was more I put a wall on my team for physical threats and then one for special threats. If I needed to adjust them afterword for Shiftry, fine thats part of the team building process, but for the most part I didnt need to specifically put a pokemon on to counter Shiftry. So as far as Shiftry getting moved up out of the tier I dont think that it will be affecting Combusken to much. I still see Combusken as a problem and I agree with Soulgazer, that while Combusken has only been recently popular with the Bulk up Xatu set I have been using it and adapting to it (just not on such a big scale). However now that everyone is using Bulk Up and making an entire baton pass team it has gotten much worse because it has been refined and people have thought of various ways to adapt to the the checks and counters that Combusken has.

Edit: also above when people said this thread was dying out, I agree with the above posts that it was more everyone talking about how over powered Combusken was had already said and resaid what they had to say multiple times, and no one new had come up with a good argument to keep Combusken in the tier.

 

[g]

Alright, the discussion on this thread has begun to die down and I was just wondering. It appears that Combusken isn't really a problem, or at least the people don't really care about it. The most that people are discussing it looks something like the post above this.

The most recent usage stats have it at around 3% in NU(beta), and, although I know that usage shouldn't denote need for ban, it really does seem, to some extent, irrelevant.

Opinions?

The usage of something in the metagame doesn't really matter when considering a ban. In the past Smogon has banned Pokemon like Venomoth and Gothorita who were broken despite not receiving more than 1% usage. The same thing also happened the nearly unused but not less "uncompetitive" strategies that lead to the application if the endless battle clause.

Also, like people already said, while Shiftry was one of the main Pokemon Combusken could setup on there are still 10+ Pokemon only looking at A/B rankings on which Combusken can setup at least 1-2 Bulk Ups and there is a pretty big chance that the Combusken user can find one or two in the opposing team.

 

[Raseri]

Hi everyone, the Combusken council is ready! The following people will be voting on Combusken

Raseri
Zebraiken
galbia
Punchshroom
Soulgazer
This Is Fearsome
scorpdestroyer
Orphic
coolking49
Aladyyn
Shuckleking87
Montsegur
NotHyunation
Brawlfest
FLCL

You may notice that DTC isn't on this list, even though he's an NU mod. He removed himself from the list of voters due to internet issues, meaning he didn't experience a lot of the Combusken metagame.

Protocol for the vote is the same as last time. Send me a PM of your vote, with a paragraph that clearly outlines your thoughts and position on Combusken. The votes will be posted in the tiering info thread once they have all been received. If you feel you are not qualified to vote, vote Abstain. Otherwise, make a decision. 8/15 people will need to vote ban in order for Combusken to be banned.

If this is your 4th vote or 8th vote, please also send me a link to all the votes you've done, and tiering related posts you've made. As you may qualify for the tiering contributor badge.

Thanks everyone!


edit: added FLCL to council

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Combusken really just needs to be banned asap as it provides way too much support for it's other team members; literally anyone can use it and get easy wins as all you need to do is set up on a free switch-in and BP out when you have enough. Because of that, it's too centralizing; if you're using, it's fine and if you're not, you're trying to counter it, by being forced to use Haze and phaze Pokemon (this sounds a lot like OU when BP Clause wasn't a thing).

With these 2 reasons alone, keeping Combusken is extremely unhealthy for NU. And as much as I would like to put a counterargument down, I cannot, as there is no valid reason for it to stay.

 

[Karane]

I defiantly (geddit) agree with Hollywood's proposal of giving the meta more time to adapt but I think its a bit too late for that. However, one set I used to counter such teams was :

Samurott @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Dragon Tail

Hits super hard with Life Orb'ed Hydro Pumps and phases BP while being viable.

 

[glock in my toyota]

I defiantly (geddit) agree with Hollywood's proposal of giving the meta more time to adapt but I think its a bit too late for that. However, one set I used to counter such teams was :

Samurott @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Dragon Tail

Hits super hard with Life Orb'ed Hydro Pumps and phases BP while being viable.

No. People don't understand.

0 Atk Life Orb Samurott Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Eviolite Combusken: 53-64 (16.4 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO

Substitute Combusken dude. Dragon Tail doesnt send the opponent out if the substitute isnt broken. Combusken can then proceed to set up on you/get a free baton pass. No Dragon Tail user can consistently phaze Combusken.

 

[Ares]

No. People don't understand.

0 Atk Life Orb Samurott Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Eviolite Combusken: 53-64 (16.4 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO

Substitute Combusken dude. Dragon Tail doesnt send the opponent out if the substitute isnt broken. Combusken can then proceed to set up on you/get a free baton pass. No Dragon Tail user can consistently phaze Combusken.

I don't think you understand the point of samurott. The point of this set is that you come in and break the sub with hydro pump threaten Combusken out with another Hydro and Dtail on the switch. you aren't ment to be breaking subs with it.

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't think you understand the point of samurott. The point of this set is that you come in and break the sub with hydro pump threaten Combusken out with another Hydro and Dtail on the switch. you aren't ment to be breaking subs with it.

You'll still have to predict well against Combusken, who may well decide to SubTect your Hydro Pump PP away since none of your other attacks can break its Sub. If you mess up even once and Dragon Tail against its Sub, or not Dragon Tailing the BP recipient, your momentum will slip away faster than a +6 Combusken @3@

Which brings up the issue of phasing move predictions against Combusken + Xatu + bulky teammate: if you win the prediction, big whoop for Combusken (who's taken no damage from you predicting it), but if you lose the prediction, you're in for a world of hurt.

 

[Ares]

You'll still have to predict well against Combusken, who may well decide to SubTect your Hydro Pump PP away since none of your other attacks can break its Sub. If you mess up even once and Dragon Tail against its Sub, or not Dragon Tailing the BP recipient, your momentum will slip away faster than a +6 Combusken @3@

Which brings up the issue of phasing move predictions against Combusken + Xatu + bulky teammate: if you win the prediction, big whoop for Combusken (who's taken no damage from you predicting it), but if you lose the prediction, you're in for a world of hurt.

Well yeah if you predict wrong you are in a world of hurt, but staying in on a LO hydro pump isnt to smart. And if the Combusken user subs down that just limits the amount of times it can come back in. Not saying its perfect but its a decent set for the problem.

 

[EonX]

The one thing I've noticed about Combusken in the little bit I've started to play with NU is that it's a very low risk, very high reward Pokemon. It's super easy to take advantage of its support, and you don't incur many drawbacks from using it. There's plenty of physical sweepers to take advantage of the boosts and even special attackers can take advantage of the Speed boosts if you don't have time to get some Bulk Ups going. Very easy to use, nice for new people getting into the tier, but very annoying to deal with imo.

 

[This Is Fearsome]

Inspired by Swagalge I decided to make a Combusken artwork also

[not a representation of my experience with Busken pass]

 

[Raseri]

Hi everyone. Combusken has been banned from NU overwhelmingly. You can read why the council voted the way they did here. With that, I will be closing this thread and posting stage 1 of NU shortly!