NP: NU Stage 0 (Beta) - Bring The Noize (Cofagrigus is Banned)

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I agree that Tyrarantrum is a major threat to the current NU metagame right now. Adding to the aforementioned points, I'd just like to draw the analogy (if any of you play SM OU) of Tyrantrum to Zygarde in SM OU -- it is the #1 offensive threat in the tier right now, and failing to prepare your team adequately against it will ensure that your team will never rise above 1300 on the ladder. Tyrantrum's awesome bulk (relatively for this tier) allows it to set up easily, and with one Dragon Dance in its belt, it can easily OHKO most relevant Mons in the tier with its dual stabs and/or Z- Earthquake/Outrage. Sure, the majority of physical walls such as Rhydon and Steelix give it a hard time, but remove those few counters from the opponent's team and Tyrantrum finds an easy time sweeping.

Tyrantrum is an offensive threat that I believe is even a cut above the other S-tier pokemons, Sneasel and Necrozma. It may even deserve a special S+ rank, don't you agree?


It's not just on paper. In practice, Tyrantrum can run multiple choice sets, instead of the already dangerous Dragon Dance sweeper set, to disrupt opponents further. Definitely worth looking into.
 

Teddeh

They say I'm up and coming like I'm fucking in an elevator.
is a Tiering Contributor
I agree that tyrantrum is a borked dino:
Without adding too much to what has been said, as a player who builds from a bulkier standpoint, its checks are far and few between with amazing typing that means that it can switch in on most things either allowing for free breaking opportunities or can threaten to sweep from early to late game. Whilst having the most destructive stab in the game, it can break any neutral wall that doesn't resist rock, whilst having the bulk to chew 90% of hits from any defensive wall, as it chews eq's from steelix. This means that it can take advantage of any slow team that has a "counter" - i say "counter" but we all know that they don't exist for this pokemon.
That being said, for an offensive stand point, it threatens a choice scarf set extremely well which means it can a) either force a switch for a free DD or b) kill your sneasel which you have switched in to revenge kill, but for the face that dinosaur is scarfed it can outspeed and hence bop.

These two points are what make me feel that it's an extremely unhealthy presence for the tier, without going into too much detail, i would definitely prefer to see it gone.

Talking about necrozma, it also has similar versatility, but i always find that with necrozma, there are counters and also the coverage that necrozma has as a psychic type is far and few between dark pulse / psychic or if it wants to run a physical set (which is actually pretty mediocre) then it has eq / x scissor, but that's it. It reminds me of a better mesprit, but i'm on the no ban side of things for it. I feel that we have plenty in the tier to deal with it, with actual counters, also mono psychic typing is pretty meh.

tl;dr ban borked dino, no ban on weird alien thingy
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive

Uxie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Trick
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic

Here is a set I used at the beginning of ORAS and am really enjoying again, so I figured I would share it. Lead Scarf Uxie is basically designed for HO teams that are predicated on set up mons such as Shell Smashers and DDers etc. This set works wonders as you can generally trick something into hazards T1 and get your own hazards. Paralyze a couple things, and all around be a menace.

Pretty straightforward, but really cool set that helps a different team archetype in "Set up Spam" really flourish.
 

Kiyo

I'm curious.
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Hi, the next round of voting is in the books! You can find out how each of the council members voted below.

Necrozma and Tyrantrum have been banned from NU through council voting. The Immortal Most of the discussion in this thread gives a pretty good indication as to why the two were banned, but if you want a quick run down Hootie and Disjunction have done us a favor and written up some quick reasoning for the bans.

Necrozma: Necrozma was banned for a combination of bulk and incredible versatility that made it difficult to scout for what set it may be. Checks to Necrozma could matchup very well versus one set, but lose to another, which makes it constraining to prepare for while forming a team. Its bulk alongside its ability made taking it down a task too, many teams relied on Toxic in order to keep it at bay. Dark-types in the tier checked it, but many are easy to wear down and Necrozma can outlast them as a result thanks to having a fairly reliable form of recovery in Moonlight. All of these traits deemed Necrozma as being too much for the current NU metagame to handle consistently.

Tyrantrum:
Tyrantrum possesed an overwhelmingly strong offensive niche in the meta game as a wallbreaker and sweeper because of its powerful STAB Head Smash with Rock Head and diverse coverage options. Dragon Dance sets were powerful because of Tyrantrum's ability to pick between what item and Z Move let it get past its common checks easiest depending on its teammates. Choice Scarf sets made checking Tyrantrum offensively that much harder if you were trying to prevent a Dragon Dance and Choice Band sets made switching into Tyrantrum with your Rock-resistant Pokemon significantly more difficult. Tyrantrum's overwhelming offensive capabilities are too much for the current NU metagame to handle.

Thanks everyone for the awesome discussion we've been seeing in this thread! I'm looking forward to tier shifts coming up as we move to an official tier and I hope all of you guys stick around for a while to come.
 
As much as I'm personally annoyed by the ban, because I've been abusing broken Dino and broken Alien so much, on the whole I'm quite heartened that the bans have taken place. As some of you may notice from my posts, I don't believe Sneasel is that broken (until I test it for myself, but I haven't got around to doing it because of my opinion on it), but Tyrantrum was a staple on literally all of my teams; I didn't realise how reliant I was on it until I realised that I have to change all my high-ladder NU teams, because all of them had Tyrantrum in it (and one had Necrozma too!).

I hope that these bans will see drastic changes in the metagame, as those two top tier threats required extreme preparation and severely restricted team archetypes. I am excited to see how NU will change from these bans, as we prepare for official tier opening.
 
I mean, this will impact things quite a bit. Honestly, Necrozma going will BENEFIT offense - they struggled a lot to take it down without darks and even then darks aren't reliable enough. It was just too bulky. Tyrantrum going ofc will benefit defensive teams that had no switch-ins, but so will Necrozma going. I can see more defense rising but it'll still be an offensive tier with the offensive psychic/dark/fighting core at heart.
 
Can we talk about hail? I've been using a shitty hail team and it's pretty effective in this meta. First, we have some really solid hail setters. Both Abomasnow and Vanilluxe are considered usable mons even outside of hail. Having 2 decent setters of a weather within a meta is almost unheard of. I assume Aurorus is terrible, idk, haven't used it. But then you have the fact that both of the good hail setters have solid offensive synergy with hail sweepers. Sandslash for instance is really good at breaking shit, but struggles with bulky waters like Jellicent. So Vanilluxe has Freeze Dry and Abomasnow has grass STAB for these mons. They can also both break Steelix, which can give Sandslash a bit of trouble. But Snowslash alone is such a good mon in this meta when backed up by hail. Adamant is fast enough for this meta, and LO Slash 2HKOes most things with its stabs and EQ, and of course outspeeds everything.

Beartic is actually not bad. Its band set breaks everything, and Aqua Jet comes in handy for when hail isn't up or somebody frail is trying to Mach Punch you. Run Shadow Claw. You need it for Slowking and Jellicent and shit. Beartic has 130 attack, it hits hard enough.

I've been using a two setters / two sweepers / rocker / fast fighting resist schematic. Yes you're stacking weaknesses like mad, but you have to play pretty offensively for hail to work anyway due to the 8 turn window, so you're going to be sacking shit.

Anyway my team is bad but it's still done really well for me, so I'm curious if any of you have tried hail / have suggestions.

team here (please ignore abomasnow's evs they're stupid)
 

Kiyo

I'm curious.
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Can we talk about hail? I've been using a shitty hail team and it's pretty effective in this meta. First, we have some really solid hail setters. Both Abomasnow and Vanilluxe are considered usable mons even outside of hail. Having 2 decent setters of a weather within a meta is almost unheard of. I assume Aurorus is terrible, idk, haven't used it. But then you have the fact that both of the good hail setters have solid offensive synergy with hail sweepers. Sandslash for instance is really good at breaking shit, but struggles with bulky waters like Jellicent. So Vanilluxe has Freeze Dry and Abomasnow has grass STAB for these mons. They can also both break Steelix, which can give Sandslash a bit of trouble. But Snowslash alone is such a good mon in this meta when backed up by hail. Adamant is fast enough for this meta, and LO Slash 2HKOes most things with its stabs and EQ, and of course outspeeds everything.

Beartic is actually not bad. Its band set breaks everything, and Aqua Jet comes in handy for when hail isn't up or somebody frail is trying to Mach Punch you. Run Shadow Claw. You need it for Slowking and Jellicent and shit. Beartic has 130 attack, it hits hard enough.

I've been using a two setters / two sweepers / rocker / fast fighting resist schematic. Yes you're stacking weaknesses like mad, but you have to play pretty offensively for hail to work anyway due to the 8 turn window, so you're going to be sacking shit.

Anyway my team is bad but it's still done really well for me, so I'm curious if any of you have tried hail / have suggestions.

team here (please ignore abomasnow's evs they're stupid)
First things first I'm the realest I think Abomasnow is the worst Hail setter of the three with Aurorus and Vanilluxe ranked pretty close depending on what else your team needs (Aurorus provides Stealth Rock and Vanilluxe is generally more useful as an offensive Pokemon).

I see what you're trying to say about the Snow Warning Pokemon having offensive synergy with Sandslash on paper, but I doubt it would go a long way in practice against more skilled opponents. You mention Sandslash struggling with bulky waters such as Jellicent, and I'll go ahead and throw in Slowbro, Slowking, Poliwrath, Vaporeon, and Seismitoad. That list actually gets longer if you decide not to run Tectonic Rage or another Z-move on Sandslash. But I fail to see how The Snow Warning Pokemon having a favorable matchup versus a few of those is helpful for Sandslash (they can outright lose to AV Slowking or Vaporeon or at the very least get a few hail turns burned). I'm not ever going to be switching into Abomasnow, Aurorus or Vanilluxe with my Jellicent or Slowbro because I know I'm not winning that matchup ever. In a similar vein I'm not going to be switching my Steelix into a Vanilluxe any time soon, especially if I recognize my opponent has a Sandslash I'm going to need it to check.

I strongly disagree with the your statement about Sandslash being a good Pokemon in this meta as its simply checked by far too many common Pokemon, despite outspeeding a majority of the metagame. The one thing you fail to mention about Sandslash that I see as its only redeeming quality is that Aurora Veil is fucking busted and Sandslash acts as a great setter by basically setting it up with Light Clay, potentially getting a Rapid Spin off, and then dying as quickly as possible for a teammate to abuse the screens and set up. The great thing about Light Clay Sandslash is that it still loses to all the same things SD would, but it also still beats a ton of the things SD is beating without needing Life Orb.

I also think Beartic is bad for the same reasons as Sandslash, its simply walled by Pokemon that are far too common in the metagame and lacks the speed to function outside of Hail even if it could accumulate enough boosts to break through them. You mention running Choice Band which I personally feel is a waste, although gaining Shadow Claw is kinda cool I'll admit. That being said, CB Shadow Claw doesnt 2HKO CM Slowbro after Leftovers so it'd be simple for the opponent to recognize the damage as choiced and switch out to a resist.

I think you hit the nail on the head at the end of your post by saying you're stacking weaknesses very quickly by committing to hail, and frankly I don't think the opportunity cost of making your team so weak to Fire, Fighting, etc. is worth it considering you have such limited turns to work with and can't be forced out if you want to use them effectively.

While I don't think hail abusing archetypes are very good I want to reiterate that Aurora Veil is fucking stupidly good and it should be a focal point of every hail team because it makes them suck about a thousand times less.
 
What's the consensus on Shuckle?
I played a lot of PU and NU last gen, and I used Smeargle soooo much.
Shuckle has pretty much replaced him, although he doesn't get access to Magic Coat and Spore/Nuzzle(not really worth it after the Para nerf), the defenses+toxic knock-off have made him pretty useful. You can also (from what I've seen) pretty reliably run leftovers. Don't see too many people using taunt, especially not on their lead mon.
I hope this is a collapsible one, don't use the forums too often... Where do I sign up to write the guide for a pokemon actually? I'd like to do Shuckle's if he doesn't drop.
 

-Davon

I believe in science!
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

Samurott @ Rindo Berry / Lum Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Megahorn
- Waterfall
- Swords Dance

One of my favorite sets right now, it's lots of fun and really effective. SD Samurott tends to get revenge killed by the plethora of faster grass types, but using a rindo berry can turn a whole game around when the opponent thinks they have their Virizion chillin in the back. You get lots of setup opportunities; Steelix, Rhydon, fire types that get scared out by Aqua Jet, I'm sure you can find more. The idea of using SD Samurott came from noticing everybody using Slowbro and Slowking as their water resist.

+2 252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 313-369 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 273-322 (104.5 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 322-380 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
i think a more important discussion right now in regards to hail is the ability to setup aurora veil, a move which i legitimately believe may be unhealthy for the tier

the combination of aurorus + sandslash-alola, while taking up two teamslots, still provide a healthy amount of support for its teammates. aurorus of course, sets up hail, which allows for aurora veil to be used successfully. it also provides rocks support so another team slot doesn't need to be dedicated for that purpose, and aurorus can very well hold it's own against some common hazard setters. aurorus can 2hko steelix, 2hko rhydon, ohko omastar (dies after hail damage with sash), ohko phys def seismitoad, etc. sandslash-alola, of course, can setup aurora veil, being faster than everything common except scarf delphox, which makes it quite easy for it to setup aurora veil (lo hitmonlee can be a preventive measure as well, since it can ohko, but it is a roll). it can also spin if necessary, but otherwise it is usually deadweight because it's not too good offensively if it's running aurora veil + spin, but the important takeaway is its ability to setup aurora veil quite easily.

with aurora veil up, a number of setup pokemon can effectively setup while also potentially being difficult to revenge kill, allowing such pokemon to dent holes in opposing teams, which may open opportunities for other setup sweepers to clean up (with 8 turns of aurora veil, it is very plausible for two or more pokemon to setup while it is active). this in particular is very effective against offensive builds, as some pokemon such as barbaracle, turtonator, and minior become extremely dangerous since they find a number of opportunities to setup with aurora veil up, and proceed to either outspeed and ohko with shell smash speed boost, or avoid being revenge killed due to aurora veil being active.

i feel aurora veil is problematic as it is quite easy to win with. even if the opponent leads with a fighting or fire-type and knocks out aurorus and sandslash four turns into the game, most of the time rocks and aurora veil with be up, which is definitely sufficient support for the rest of the team to win. aurora veil isn't necessarily easy to remove either, since defoggers such as golbat and skuntank will take healthy damage if they want to defog against sandslash, and if they try and defog against other team members, it is more than likely that they have already safely setup. the ability to mindlessly lead with aurorus, setup veil with sandslash, and setup with other pokemon and still being able to win does take away some skill aspect of the game i believe

obviously the problem is with aurora veil itself, not hail. i'm not personally a fan of full hail offense, but it is still a viable playstyle that isn't unhealthy for the tier.
 
i think a more important discussion right now in regards to hail is the ability to setup aurora veil, a move which i legitimately believe may be unhealthy for the tier

the combination of aurorus + sandslash-alola, while taking up two teamslots, still provide a healthy amount of support for its teammates. aurorus of course, sets up hail, which allows for aurora veil to be used successfully. it also provides rocks support so another team slot doesn't need to be dedicated for that purpose, and aurorus can very well hold it's own against some common hazard setters. aurorus can 2hko steelix, 2hko rhydon, ohko omastar (dies after hail damage with sash), ohko phys def seismitoad, etc. sandslash-alola, of course, can setup aurora veil, being faster than everything common except scarf delphox, which makes it quite easy for it to setup aurora veil (lo hitmonlee can be a preventive measure as well, since it can ohko, but it is a roll). it can also spin if necessary, but otherwise it is usually deadweight because it's not too good offensively if it's running aurora veil + spin, but the important takeaway is its ability to setup aurora veil quite easily.

with aurora veil up, a number of setup pokemon can effectively setup while also potentially being difficult to revenge kill, allowing such pokemon to dent holes in opposing teams, which may open opportunities for other setup sweepers to clean up (with 8 turns of aurora veil, it is very plausible for two or more pokemon to setup while it is active). this in particular is very effective against offensive builds, as some pokemon such as barbaracle, turtonator, and minior become extremely dangerous since they find a number of opportunities to setup with aurora veil up, and proceed to either outspeed and ohko with shell smash speed boost, or avoid being revenge killed due to aurora veil being active.

i feel aurora veil is problematic as it is quite easy to win with. even if the opponent leads with a fighting or fire-type and knocks out aurorus and sandslash four turns into the game, most of the time rocks and aurora veil with be up, which is definitely sufficient support for the rest of the team to win. aurora veil isn't necessarily easy to remove either, since defoggers such as golbat and skuntank will take healthy damage if they want to defog against sandslash, and if they try and defog against other team members, it is more than likely that they have already safely setup. the ability to mindlessly lead with aurorus, setup veil with sandslash, and setup with other pokemon and still being able to win does take away some skill aspect of the game i believe

obviously the problem is with aurora veil itself, not hail. i'm not personally a fan of full hail offense, but it is still a viable playstyle that isn't unhealthy for the tier.
Aurora Veil is honestly just a bullshit move to begin with. Sure, Hail kinda needed a buff. But this was not the way to do it. Seriously, the only reason people use Alolan Ninetales is because of Aurora Veil.
 

Sir Kay

Pack your meat bicycles, we're going to the moon.
is a Pre-Contributor
I disagree with it being an issue. There hasn't been any wide spread positive results of hail teams taking the meta by storm. In theory its good but there hasn't been any solid results to prove it being an issue in NU. And besides that Memento basically does the same thing for set up sweepers anyways, and you don't need to dedicate 2 mons to doing it. The reason its so good in other tiers is because Alolan Ninetales both auto set Hail and set up Aurora Veil, and it could do it more then once. With this lead Aurorus + Sandslash-Alola you're basically giving yourself one shot at it, which in all honestly isn't even that great given what you're investing into using this strat.



With that I'd like to talk about a mon that has really been under the radar that I've really been enjoying. Sliggoo is something I slapped on to one of my stall and I was really impressed with what it did. It has the raw bulk to take on majority of the fire types in the tier such as Houndoom, Delphox, Charizard, and Typhlosion. On top of that its ability Sap Sipper allows it to wall out things such as Lilligant and Vivilon special Sceptile with ease. Last gen Rest Talk + Curse was the go-to set but I haven't felt that set has been that good this gen with all the new faries we have. Instead I've been running a Sp.D set with Dpulse, Sludge Wave, Rest, Sleep Talk/Toxic. Very cool mon and I hope that people give it a shot because its actually really neat right now!
 

Kiyo

I'm curious.
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I disagree with it being an issue. There hasn't been any wide spread positive results of hail teams taking the meta by storm. In theory its good but there hasn't been any solid results to prove it being an issue in NU. And besides that Memento basically does the same thing for set up sweepers anyways, and you don't need to dedicate 2 mons to doing it. The reason its so good in other tiers is because Alolan Ninetales both auto set Hail and set up Aurora Veil, and it could do it more then once. With this lead Aurorus + Sandslash-Alola you're basically giving yourself one shot at it, which in all honestly isn't even that great given what you're investing into using this strat.
Just want to point out that the ladder had at one point 4 meeps alts and 2 other users of his "hail" team in the top 10 for a 2 week period (with 4 of them being the topmost accounts). literally everyone its been passed to has seen massive success with it.

i also want to point out for anyone who may bring this counter argument: aurora veil is the problem because of the ease in which you are able to set up both light screen and reflect without the threat of the opponent 2hkoing you or knocking off your light clay before you can get the second screen. i've run screens offense with memento mons in this meta and its ridiculously inconsistent when compared to aurora veil teams

the rest of this post is going to be based on anecdotal evidence from laddering with and seeing people play with meeps's team for ~2 weeks:

I think you're underplaying how good 8 turns of Reflect+Light screen really are in the eyes of a set up sweeper, especially considering how many good ones we have at the moment. Also while I do think Sandslash functions much better when you can sack it as your veil goes up, its not exactly difficult to switch out of something after getting a veil up, and keeping a sash aurorus alive to activate hail again if need be is a matter of reading the matchup at team preview and deciding whether going for chip with blizzard is more important or having the utility of screens more than once. when we already have pokemon such as virizion and cofagrigus that can sweep through teams given one free turn, aurora veil packs even more of a punch.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

With that I'd like to talk about a mon that has really been under the radar that I've really been enjoying. Sliggoo is something I slapped on to one of my stall and I was really impressed with what it did. It has the raw bulk to take on majority of the fire types in the tier such as Houndoom, Delphox, Charizard, and Typhlosion. On top of that its ability Sap Sipper allows it to wall out things such as Lilligant and Vivilon special Sceptile with ease. Last gen Rest Talk + Curse was the go-to set but I haven't felt that set has been that good this gen with all the new faries we have. Instead I've been running a Sp.D set with Dpulse, Sludge Wave, Rest, Sleep Talk/Toxic. Very cool mon and I hope that people give it a shot because its actually really neat right now!
Sliggoo's indeed pretty fat, though I imagine Drampa would give this a lot of competition since it also has Sap Sipper, but also has a much wider movepool, namely better coverage such as Flamethrower or whatever types of attackers you wish Drampa to hit, as well as various defensive options such as Roost, Glare, even Dragon Tail, in addition to workable special bulk and more power to just 2HKO most of the threats it wants to check, making it more self-sufficient. Being weak to Focus Blast can be an annoyance, though both bulky Dragons tend to fit in teams that already carry a bulky Water and Poison mon to help ease the load against Typhlosion and Sceptile anyway.

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Aurora Veil offense has established itself as one of the most mechanically effective archetypes in NU, and if Kiyo is right about meeps's success, it was good even during Drought's stint in NU, so it's only going to be even better in the upcoming metas. Aurorus as a lead not only has Stealth Rock, but has the tools to discourage setup (such as Rock Tomb, Encore, even Thunder Wave) and just enough offensive presence to force most offensive mons to KO it quickly as well as deter Taunt. Whether Aurorus is taken down or manages to be preserved for later, Alolan Sandslash can then use its blistering Speed to set up an 8 turn Aurora Veil, use its Ice STAB to threaten basically every notable Defog user (as well as Earthquake for Skuntank), and even has decent hazard resilience + a fast Rapid Spin to remove any entry hazards that were set up against Aurorus, setting the opponent even further back. From there, the tier's multitude of dangerous setup sweepers are put in an extremely prime position to just start cleaning house. From what I can see, this strategy is very difficult for many variants of offense to overcome.

With that said, my question here would be if it is just this specific combination of Aurorus + AlolanSlash that makes Aurora Veil a potential problem, or if Aurora Veil as a whole should be looked at. After all, part of what makes this combo so powerful is that Aurorus is capable of thwarting most opponents' turn 1 advantage (especially attempts to boost Speed, should the opponent intend to outspeed and KO AlolanSlash) + AlolanSlash's stupid fast 8 turn Veil and Rapid Spin. Any other method of setting up Aurora Veil that I can think of has some very exploitable downside(s), such as being set up on, being vulnerable to entry hazards, having only 5 turns of Aurora Veil, or even just being outsped and KOed before Veil can be set up, making this strategy not any more of an issue than simple Dual Screens at that point. Thus, my suggestion to remove the problematic part of Aurora Veil as opposed to getting rid of Aurora Veil entirely would be a complex ban of Slush Rush + Aurora Veil.
 
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Sir Kay

Pack your meat bicycles, we're going to the moon.
is a Pre-Contributor
Just want to point out that the ladder had at one point 4 meeps alts and 2 other users of his "hail" team in the top 10 for a 2 week period (with 4 of them being the topmost accounts). literally everyone its been passed to has seen massive success with it.
This is a very big feat to do and I wont try to argue it, but is one person topping the ladder like this enough to call for a complex ban? And I understand other people have been passed this team and have done well with it, but is that just because this style has a very good ladder match up similar to how rain is, or is it because the strategy itself is broken? I think its way too soon to try and suspect it or complex ban it. I'd like to see more people explore it and counter it then to just see someone doing well with it and figure that its broken without much more thought then that.

Aurora Veil offense has established itself as one of the most mechanically effective archetypes in NU
Again, one person using it on only the ladder without people trying to combat it doesn't mean its established itself as one of the most effective archetypes in the tier. It needs more time to be explored and for people to know its out there and to build with it in mind and THEN see how it works.
 

Rwby

@g change my smogon name to lalala memes :33
is a Pre-Contributor
I'm posting from my phone so I can't go in to too much detail, but Aurora Veil is extremely good at the moment. Meeps is probably the most prestigious person to use it but I've seen it used by a lot of other users in tours and ladder with a great rate of success. I'd say it's match up based but nothing like rain or sun because most matches it has the positive match up. I really just think that the move itself needs to go.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
This is a very big feat to do and I wont try to argue it, but is one person topping the ladder like this enough to call for a complex ban? And I understand other people have been passed this team and have done well with it, but is that just because this style has a very good ladder match up similar to how rain is, or is it because the strategy itself is broken? I think its way too soon to try and suspect it or complex ban it. I'd like to see more people explore it and counter it then to just see someone doing well with it and figure that its broken without much more thought then that.

Again, one person using it on only the ladder without people trying to combat it doesn't mean its established itself as one of the most effective archetypes in the tier. It needs more time to be explored and for people to know its out there and to build with it in mind and THEN see how it works.
While the notion of the meta being at a fairly young state attributing to Veil's success is a valid assumption, it's also not impossible for one guy to craft such a mechanically fluid team that it simply doesn't have much counterplay (by counterplay I don't mean stopping the setup sweepers under Aurora Veil since that is team dependent, I mean stopping Aurora Veil itself from going off), has room to adapt to potential counterplay, and is largely effective for anyone who tries it. You know, like dENnIsSsS's Baton Pass. While nowhere near that extreme, the idea exists in that it is extremely difficult to stop the core strategy from going off, without resorting to less practical means or the occasional surprise factor.

Stopping Aurora Veil actually has a similar element of '1 vs several' that it shares with combating Baton Pass, in that your Pokemon must be able to bypass Aurorus relatively unscathed and stop AlolanSlash from setting Aurora Veil (if you have to switch to your AlolanSlash answer after beating Aurorus, you'd have already lost momentum and AlolanSlash already has gotten Veil up). Aurorus is extremely capable of slowing down/outright KOing your fast Pokemon (btw, you need to be Scarf Delphox fast to outrun Jolly AlolanSlash) and thwarting any attempts of speeding up, whereas every relevant Defogger has a poor matchup against AlolanSlash. From what I can come up with, the only reasonably consistent answer is Fighting-type priority from Hitmonlee, Toxicroak, and even Poliwrath (Gurdurr doesn't OHKO AlolanSlash with Mach Punch, but it can't Bulk Up against Sash Aurorus as it gets 2HKOed by Blizzard + Hail), particularly Hitmonlee since it can even spin away Aurorus's Stealth Rock. However, Aurora Veil teams can (and already do) use Cofagrigus to combat Hitmonlee and the like, and all the Veil user has to do is force out your Fighting priority user and get AlolanSlash back in and set it back up again. You can shut down the strategy by leading off with a Brick Break mon (that isn't Ice weak) or carrying Defog Lumineon / Prinplup, but as you can tell this is encroaching 'impractical' territory.

If Aurora Veil is this consistent to set up and most teams' counterplay against it is hoping they are able to fend off the 4 remaining members with Dual Screens up, then the dangerous implication here is that the Veil user has a lot of room to work with when selecting their sweepers. You're right in that it's pretty early to decide a course of action against it atm, but I still want to throw my prior suggestion out there should Aurora Veil persist to be an issue.
 
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I’ve been following NUPL a lot recently, the battles have been really fun and it’s been a great learning experience on what’s really thriving in NU at the highest levels. This is the biggest thing I’ve noticed, and what I want to talk about in this post:


Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam
- Toxic / Roar

Slowbro @ Waterium Z
Ability: Regenerator
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind / Thunder Wave
- Psyshock
- Slack Off

Drapion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake


This is THE Bulky Offense core rn. Of all the replays I have available to me atm, at least two of the mons in this core were used 13 times. That’s also discounting the amount of times it was Steelix + Slowking or Steelix + Skuntank, which are very similar in nature, so keep that in mind. This core (or variants of it) has been used so often that both Steelix and Drapion were the two most used pokemon in week 1 of NUPL, with Bro being tied for fourth with Scep, Meloetta, and Cofag. And when you look at it, it’s not hard to see why it’s so popular. Steelix and Slowbro have amazing defensive synergy, Bro spongeing the fire and water attacks for Lix while he blocks the electric and dark attacks for Bro. Drapion acts as a glue mon by revenging the offensive threats that threaten this core, namely offensive grass and ghost types. While it IS good, it isn’t unbeatable, and I want to shine a light on some mons that can be a massive thorn in this core’s side.


Meloetta @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Hyper Voice / Focus Blast
- Focus Blast / Shadow Ball


Originally I thought Meloetta to be a tad overrated, but after seeing it put in work in NUPL, I can admit I was WAY off on the mark with this one. CM Colbur in particular is it’s best set imo, as it puts in the most work against this core. Slowbro is more or less setup fodder, Lix is an unreliable answer due to Focus Blast, and Drapion can’t even reliably revenge kill it due to Colbur neutering its dark stab. Subbing out Slowking for Slowbro can help deal with this, AV King specifically, but that’s what Shadow Ball is for.


Houndoom @ Life Orb / Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power [Water]


Slowbro may seem like a good water resist on paper, but in reality, most fire types in NU have a way of getting around him, and this is the best one for the job. Between his amazing stab coverage, Houndoom shreds this core, only being stopped by Drapion, who, at worst, is gonna force you out or get like 30% off if they Pursuit for some unknown reason. Shuca may seem like a weird option, but it prevents the OHKO from Drapion’s eq, which is nice if that’s their only way of rking Doom.


Machamp @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade
- Bullet Punch


Shockingly, this pokemon has zero switch-ins. Even Slowbro has a chance to be 2hko’d by Facade with rocks up, a chance that’s in Machamp’s favor. Add that to the fact that Champ takes advantage of Drapion being locked into a dark move, and he absolutely destroys this core.

In closing, it’s been interesting studying the path the NU metagame has been taking lately. Originally I guessed the tier would be far more offensive, given the sheer amount of nigh unwallable offensive threats we have. However, it’s taken a more bulky route that, while not flawless in stopping the powerful breakers of the tier, does its job reliably enough to cement itself as one of the most popular cores in NU. The meta’s still young, and with the variety of mons in this tier there’s always room for innovation (Alolan Raticate doing 50 to Steelix with Breakneck Blitz LOL) so this won’t be set in stone, but I am excited as to which direction NU takes next. Shoutouts to the NU council for making such a cool tier for us to enjoy, and for the teams in NUPL for giving us a window into what potential NU has as a metagame.
 
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