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np: NU Stage 0 - For What It's Worth

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by tennisace, Dec 10, 2011.

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  1. Omicron

    Omicron
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    Eelektross also functions well on a Trick Room team with his abysmal Speed if you don't like relying on Thunder Wave support.
  2. Sabinfrost

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    I'll put this in the appropriate place, I have a bad habit of tripping over red tape -

    "I find it rather hilarious that all the tools that used to reside in the UU tier (and made hail suspect) are now lingering down in NU.

    Is it any wonder the NU ladder is dominated by hail teams?

    You have Cryogonal now, a special wall and spinner with recovery.
    Snover picked up eviolite.
    Glaceon is equally capable of running a devastating offensive set or stalling now due to ice body.
    Wallrein is in the tier, the stall king himself.

    I really wish that was the end of the possible options for hail abuse but sadly it is not.

    This is not a l2p (learn to play issue). Hail is literally breaking NU, the majority of the top teams on PO in NU are Hail."

    To me it's fairly obvious hail is unhealthy to the NU metagame, it creates easy strategies for easy victories and punishes those that do not build hail teams.

    Snover is certainly not "NU," even in the sense of the term, it sees a lot of action in NU and Abomasnow is a common sight in UU. The fact hail has no competing permanent weather gives it an easy run, ideally I'd like to see all permanent weather moved to OU, but at the very least Snover should be RU.

    I use Girafarig, all the time.

    He has sap sipper (which is practically necessary due to Smeargle firing off spore) and he can pass his boosts. He also runs screens but Togetic is better at that.
  3. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    Iirc snover is actually moving up in January so we won't have to worry about it until snover possibly moves down, whenever that is
  4. Sabinfrost

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    First I've heard but it's completely necessary, it's not even really debatable, he creates too many easy ways to sweep/stall out your opponent. Even a prepared team struggles to deal with multiple walls in hail and sweepers like scarfed Rotom - Fridge, Jynx and Magneton.

    Rotom - F and Glaceon are currently seeing a fair bit of action in UU as well due to Abomasnow, they are practically mainstays, no UU mainstay should be down in NU.
  5. tennisace

    tennisace Proximity to power deludes some into thinking they wield it.
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    Or you could do what everyone else is doing and wait like two weeks for the tiers to update and Snover moves up to RU on its own. In the meantime, use Pokemon that give hail serious trouble, like Klinklang, Magneton, Magmortar, Slowking, Sawk, etc. Hail is very cohesive and is a great playstyle, but its really far from broken in this tier.
  6. Steamroll

    Steamroll resident zombie
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    which is why you need to show me that one team you kicked my ass with.
  7. The Reptile

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    I would like to state that I full heartedly agree with this post, as I think Elektross is the best electric-type in the tier. So versatile. Low speed makes me sad though. :|
  8. waterwarrior

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    @Steamroll, since I've been playing NU since the beginning (when Eelektross was in the top 10), and while its good, I've never found it to be that great.

    @sabinfrost, please stfu. In two weeks, it'll be gone for good. That, and how the hell can we ban something not in the tier? Does Scizor need to be banned from UU? The point of "Well, Rotom-F is a UU mainstay" is bullshit. For multiple reasons:
    1. If its a mainstay, why is it NU?
    2. Quagsire. Slowbro. That is all.

    Essentially, all you have to do is: deal with it for a couple more weeks.
  9. Byrne

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    Ninjask is actually pretty decent in this tier, despite the fact that like 98% of people just identify it with nub players.

    The number of potent Pokemon that appreciate a Speed Boost or two in this tier is enormous. Even things like Electabuzz enjoy it, since with a good Special Attack stat and boosted defenses from Eviolite, you can get some fairly consistent sweeps.
  10. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    id have to say, with my experience in NU, i have used and faced a huge amount of Baton Pass teams in the past two days, all the good passers are down here, something to watch out for imo.
  11. Byrne

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    Honestly, Armaldo (rocks and spin. all in one!), Ninjask, and then four sweepers has been working quite well for me. It's very simple, too.
  12. breh

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    yeah, ninjask is actually good. the only way that I get past bp teams is they play cocky when they see rhydon and don't expect roar.

    and yeah; of course all the good bpers are here. once espeon was banned, they had nowhere to go (bar celebi, zapdos, and mew) but NU.

    (please somebody use soundproof mr.mime)
  13. Byrne

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    The problem with soundproof Mr. Mime against your Rhydon is that Mime's pitiful physical bulk is easily exploited and a simple Earthquake will do massive damage.
  14. breh

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    well, not everybody uses rhydon to roar; hell, once it's been passed enough def (or uses barrier enough) its subs won't break. Mr. Mime is essentially the Mew of NU, too, getting many boosting moves (barrier, CM, and NP) to pass to its teammates.
  15. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    ive been using Swords dance sheer force mawile in NU to decent effect, after all, 2hkoing tangela after rocks and a boost with iron head is no small feat. sometimes its low stats Do let it down but in my experience, it can get two to three kills per match due to it sheer power, after a SD, most revenge killers such as braviary take 70%+ from sucker punch, really interesting mon, if you ask me.

    edit: not saying its a top threat, but its pretty legit
  16. MikeDecIsHere

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    Rock Blast shits on Ninjask all day. Why no one uses Rock Blast Rhydon is beyond me
  17. The Reptile

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    From what I've been playing, SD Leafeon is a boss. Massive attack, decent speed and defenses. But the best part is you completely rape Quagasire's face of with Leaf Blade. Not sure how good he is vs Tangela as I usually switch-in Magmortar on those, but he does get Super Effective X-Scissor on it.

    Not sure how good Physically Defensive Leafeon, as I think it might be outclassed by tangela. He does get Wish, so that might be an edge, not to mention some actual offensive presence.
  18. Byrne

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    Leafeon's draw is having Leftovers and decently reliable recovery in Wish. However, the defensive bulk really does not compare, and Tangela has Regenerator to help out with healing HP. Tangela is generally superior, but Leafeon kind of has a totally different purpose usually.
  19. Sabinfrost

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    No need to be rude man, I didn't know it was going and it's currently there isn't it, it will be gone, but it's not gone, just offering my opinion. Quagsire has a lot of counters in the tier, the curse set is rendered hopeless by anything with taunt or fazing moves/haze and there are TONS of viable grass types. Slowbro is UU, so you put your foot in your mouth there. Slowking I believe you mean has tons of checks, but is a very viable Poke which people prepare for, it's one Poke, hail can outstall/sweep even prepared teams. It's basically hail vs. anti-hail with all other teams falling on the wayside.

    Now that is out of the way, I was going to ask about Smeargle, I know SmashPass is banned but he pulls off Quiver pass sets and he still spore/spikes as well as he always has. Given how regularly he gets used in UU as a Smashpasser with Spore, you'd think he deserves to be in a higher tier, even with the likes of Magmortar with Vital Spirit not much prevents a sashed Smeargle doing it's job. Anything that can hold it's own in a variety of higher tier teams like Smeargle should probably be suspect.


    Lefeon pulls off a physical sweep with Leaf Blade o.k despite lack of coverage, he can also act as a cleric with access to wish/heal bell and a phasing move unlike Tangela, so I agree with you, Lefeon has it's place.
  20. Zebraiken

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    I think suspects would be best discussed once the tier shifts happen. As far as we know, the meta post-shift will be beautiful and fantastic and amazing (even though I'm pretty sure it won't; what's going to check Gorebyss again?). Smeargle is really fantastic and I hate how people have actually started to run Sap Sipper Miltank and Vital Spirit Magmortar just to deal with it. >:(

    Leafeon (...along with Gorebyss) is going to be superb when the tier shifts happen. It loses basically all of its important checks. Scolipede, Swellow, Braviary, Snover, Rotom-F, Klinklang... yeah, nothing is going to deal with it very well at all save maybe Magneton. And even in the scenario that you get walled by something like Magneton, all it's gonna take is a quick Baton Pass to your Magneton counter (and you might get off a +2 pass too). I'm really excited to play around with Leafeon when those shifts happen.
  21. Sabinfrost

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    Honestly Swellow/Braviary don't need to go, they die if they switch into a predicted fighting/rock move and a banded brave bird or guts boosted facade does nothing to Rhydon/Lairon. They have counters in the tier and are rock weak. Swellow in particular is incredibly frail and often revenge killed by scarfers (which also tend to switch in if it protects to trigger it's toxic orb).

    Rotom in general is not NU material, regardless of his form he's fantastic defensively or offensively, he's a pseudo legendary without Articuno's, as a legendary comparison, 4x rock weakness and shallow movepool.

    Klinklang is another case of there are lots of checks for it, it has a very shallow movepool, even boosted gear grinds do very little to bulky water types and it needs to rely on a normal move for coverage. If it had a less predictable/wider movepool I'd see the issue, but as it is it's very easy to check as you know precisely what it's going to do most times.

    Huntail/Gorebyss need discussion, especially after the tier shifts. Even without smash passing they are a huge threat after a single shell smash due to their speed. There are tons of opportunities to set up as well, they can easily come in on a scarfed Emboar knowing they can take a hit, boost and outspeed. A Huntail carrying crunch/waterfall and ice-beam can sweep a lot of teams quite easily after a single Shell Smash, Gorebyss is quite capable of it as well. I'd see them moved before any of the above, even with Smashpass banned.
  22. waterwarrior

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    Because, you know, I didn't mean that they're mainstays of OU that aren't in the tier or anything like that, kthnx.

    Also, I'm only going to say this once. It doesn't matter whether its broken in the tier or not, its how much a poke is used that determines its tier. I don't care how frail the birds are, how shallow Klinklang's movepool is, ITS THE AMOUNT THEY'RE USED IN RU THAT COUNTS.

    Ok, why the hell are you comparing Rotom to Articuno? I really must know. Anyways, I'll address the Rotoms we have:
    Spin: Its annoying to be sure with ParaFusion + Flinch shenanigans, but unless you get REALLY unlucky, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
    Frost: Without Snover, its going to be near useless. Only remotely broken for the rest of the month.

    1. When arguing something's broken, its nice to bring up something relevant. Saying more than one is also pretty nice.
    2. The example you brought up isnt even true. Flare Blitz? Yes. Superpower? Gorebyss takes 71.8-85% (and Huntail takes more), how the hell can it come in on that? Wild Charge? Pretty much the same as Superpower. Btw, those calcs were with Jolly. If you're Adamant, they'll just go ahead and get OHKO'd
    3. Gorebyss and Huntail aren't even common, and when I do see one, its easily dealt with. With Slowking gone I suppose it will be harder to deal with, but not in this round.
  23. Amarillo

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    @Sabin: you seem to be confused about how the tiers are determined. I think in PO they do indeed regulate all the mons in separate tiers in their appropriate 'power level' but Smogon simply uses the usage in their server for most of their tiering uses. In fact, that's where the tier names actually come from! Unless a mon is considered incredibly overpowered, we won't mess with the tiers determined by usage. Trust me, those who are in charge actually know something about the metagame, and we never unnecessarily ban weak things that don't break the metagame.

    Swellow and Braviary are leaving not because they're overpowered. They're really good, but if you carry an Eviolite Rhydon or something, they'll have trouble getting past it. They're leaving because they're getting more usage on the RU ladder. Huntail and Rotom-S aren't moving up a tier because it's getting little usage on the RU ladder.

    Hope I clarified something.
  24. Sabinfrost

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    No need to be so aggressive/rude.

    Perhaps it is the amount that's used, that's fine, that's what the terms mean and I get that, that wasn't my point. My point was that there are considerably higher threats in the tier and plenty of ways to deal with half the pokemon that are moving.

    I compared the Rotoms to Articuno because they have high speed and special attack for the tier without the crippling weaknesses and shallow movepool that limits the latter to lower tier status. With Snover gone Frost Rotom shouldn't be as much of an issue, currently it sees plenty of UU usage on hail teams, it will still be viable without hail, but not broken.

    I believe that argument was relevant, I took Emboar as an example (as Scarf Emboar is very common) after a single superpower on anything, they can switch in after the attack drop, if he locks himself into flare blitz, they don't mind outside of blaze range. It was a hypothetical example, the point was against a lot of common threats they have a chance to set up, and once they do it's practically GG.

    Huntail tends to be physical and ohkos Slowking with crunch, practically everything else with waterfall and a +2 icebeam (even if it's not invested) will take out common grass threats like Tangela. Gorebyss is the special equivalent and while it only has HP to deal with Slowking, it's still an incredibly threatening sweeper due to the fact it can get the equivalent of agility and nasty plot in half the turns taking up half the move slots.
  25. TickingSeedotBomb

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    Leafeon's an awesome pokemon, and so are Jynx and Rotom-S. Hopefully they rise in usage after the tier shifts
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