canno
formerly The Reptile
Why not run both? Unless it screws up with coverage, I see no reason to not run both.
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np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak
- Thread starter tennisace
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They generally do, but Golem still provides a relatively solid counter for it as it will kill you with Sucker Punch if you attempt to Seed Bomb it. Linoone has no coverage anyway, it just e-speeds everything that isn't Ghost or Rock, Seed Bombs rock Pokemon and Shadow Claws ghosts. The only issue is if it's not using E-Speed it risks getting outsped and killed by Scarfs or enemy priority as it dies to a stiff breeze.
Belly Drum is also VERY obvious, so it invites the same counters such as Haze and Roar that Gorebyss does
A Sucker Punch from Golem with max investment doesn't even 2HKO 0/0 Linoone, while Seed Bomb with max investment 2HKO's max def Golem.
Edit: Golem with an Atk boosting nature has a very low chance of a 2HKO with Sucker Punch.
Edit: Golem with an Atk boosting nature has a very low chance of a 2HKO with Sucker Punch.
You're considering the fact Linoone is at full health, it wont be, due to rocks and the fact it halves its health to set up Belly Drum.
Believe me, it dies. Without investment Golem has 110 base attack, Linoone has 60 defense.
Changing the topic, does anyone else think offensive Regice is a good idea as of now? Unresisted bolt beam, with stab on ice beam, coming off of a base 100 stat is nothing to scoff at. With Lanturn and Slowking out of the way, it seems really good. Rock polish could better it's base 50 speed, and then it could run a hidden power of choice or focus blast. Food for thought I guess.
EDIT: thinking about it rotom fridge is way better in an offensive role.
EDIT: thinking about it rotom fridge is way better in an offensive role.
1) Golem with 252 Atk and Adamant nature does 42.76-50.51% damage to Linoone with 0 HP and 0 Def.
2) If Linoone is behind screens like Molk suggested, Golem's going to be doing 21.55-25.59% with Sucker Punch, which would just activate Sitrus Berry, basically nullifying the damage. You'd basically need SR and some Spikes down to completely kill it off.
3) WITHOUT Belly Drum, Seed Bomb is a 2HKO. Period. WITH Belly Drum, and factoring in hazards, it's an OHKO.
EDIT: Nvm, Golem is taking 3-4 Seed Bomb's without Belly Drum. So basically Golem can take you out if you switch into it with screens, but it can't switch into you if you've Belly Drum'd up.
DOUBLE EDIT: Oops, on that last edit I had Reflect up for Golem, disregard it. Linoone is taking him out either way.
2) If Linoone is behind screens like Molk suggested, Golem's going to be doing 21.55-25.59% with Sucker Punch, which would just activate Sitrus Berry, basically nullifying the damage. You'd basically need SR and some Spikes down to completely kill it off.
3) WITHOUT Belly Drum, Seed Bomb is a 2HKO. Period. WITH Belly Drum, and factoring in hazards, it's an OHKO.
EDIT: Nvm, Golem is taking 3-4 Seed Bomb's without Belly Drum. So basically Golem can take you out if you switch into it with screens, but it can't switch into you if you've Belly Drum'd up.
DOUBLE EDIT: Oops, on that last edit I had Reflect up for Golem, disregard it. Linoone is taking him out either way.
canno
formerly The Reptile
Putting up some calcs up in this bitch.
Seed Bomb max attack +6 LO Linoone vs max defense Golem: 239.6% - 282.4% (wrecked)
Seed Bomb max attack +0 LO Linoone vs max defense Golem: 54.9% - 64.8% (2HKO)
Seed Bomb max attack +0 LO Linoone vs 252/0 defense Golem: 73.6% - 86.8% (2HKO)
Extreme Speed max attack +6 LO Linoone vs max defense +Def Nature Boost Golem: 40.7% - 48.1% (2HKO after rocks)
Extreme Seed max attack +6 LO Linoon vs 252/0 defense +Def Nature Boost Golem: 49.5% - 58.2% (solid 2HKO)
Extreme Seed max attack +6 LO Linoon vs 252/0 defense Golem: 44.8% - 52.7% (solid 2HKO)
Sucker Punch max attack Golem vs 0/0 Linoon: 49.7% - 58.5% (2HKO, will kill Linoon if he's at half health and rocks are up)
Sucker Punch no attack investment Golem vs 0/0 Linoon: 40% - 47.3% (3HKO, 2HKO if Linoon is at half health)
So what this tells me is that Golem is a solid counter AFTER a Belly Drum. Before that, Golem get's its shit wrecked.
EDIT: Calcs for the lulz
Earthquake no attack investement Golem vs 0/0 Linoon: 61.2% - 72.1% (Solid 2HKO)
Earthquake max attack Golem vs 0/0 Linoon: 92.7% - 109.4% (Almost OHKOs, OHKOs after rocks)
Seed Bomb max attack +6 LO Linoone vs max defense Golem: 239.6% - 282.4% (wrecked)
Seed Bomb max attack +0 LO Linoone vs max defense Golem: 54.9% - 64.8% (2HKO)
Seed Bomb max attack +0 LO Linoone vs 252/0 defense Golem: 73.6% - 86.8% (2HKO)
Extreme Speed max attack +6 LO Linoone vs max defense +Def Nature Boost Golem: 40.7% - 48.1% (2HKO after rocks)
Extreme Seed max attack +6 LO Linoon vs 252/0 defense +Def Nature Boost Golem: 49.5% - 58.2% (solid 2HKO)
Extreme Seed max attack +6 LO Linoon vs 252/0 defense Golem: 44.8% - 52.7% (solid 2HKO)
Sucker Punch max attack Golem vs 0/0 Linoon: 49.7% - 58.5% (2HKO, will kill Linoon if he's at half health and rocks are up)
Sucker Punch no attack investment Golem vs 0/0 Linoon: 40% - 47.3% (3HKO, 2HKO if Linoon is at half health)
So what this tells me is that Golem is a solid counter AFTER a Belly Drum. Before that, Golem get's its shit wrecked.
EDIT: Calcs for the lulz
Earthquake no attack investement Golem vs 0/0 Linoon: 61.2% - 72.1% (Solid 2HKO)
Earthquake max attack Golem vs 0/0 Linoon: 92.7% - 109.4% (Almost OHKOs, OHKOs after rocks)
Which is pretty much what I figured as I've actually killed a Linoone with a Sucker Punch from Golem after Belly Drum (the Linoone was Lum Berry, not Sitrus) and took rocks damage, I switched into the predicted Belly Drum.
It's also worth noting Golem has Sturdy, if he's at max health he's going to be able to EQ and then Sucker Punch Linoone if that's unbroken.
Onto other checks for Linoone, Scarf Haunter is immune to e-speed, outspeeds it and can quite easily take it down with Sludge Bomb or HP Fighting (common enough on Haunter for steels). While you can't switch into Shadow Claw, Linoone setting up Belly Drum tends to be quite obvious, giving you the opportunity to come in and wreck it.
Who runs HP Fighting on Haunter when HP Ground is superior in every way imaginable?
Also, Linoone outspeeds Haunter and easily OHKOs with Shadow Claw (I don't think he even needs the Belly Drum for this OHKO). Regirock is a better counter than Golem, and so is Probopass. In my experience, defensive Golem is really mediocre and offensive variants are the only Golem worth using.
Also CrazyBacon, do remember that Linoone will Espeed and your Sucker Punch will be null and void. It still does enough even when resisted.
Also, Linoone outspeeds Haunter and easily OHKOs with Shadow Claw (I don't think he even needs the Belly Drum for this OHKO). Regirock is a better counter than Golem, and so is Probopass. In my experience, defensive Golem is really mediocre and offensive variants are the only Golem worth using.
Also CrazyBacon, do remember that Linoone will Espeed and your Sucker Punch will be null and void. It still does enough even when resisted.
if golem switches in as linoone belly drums, it takes SR damage and leftovers heals him back too full health. Sturdy then activates and keeps golem from being OHKOED allowing him too use EQ/SE + Sucker punch.
I wrote Scarf Haunter didn't I? He outspeeds Linoone.
HP Ground is obviously not superior in "every way imaginable" given Fighting hits Normal types harder which are immune to one of your STAB moves and gets super-effective damage on Steel as well without needing to worry about Levitate or Flying types coming in. Fighting at least hits Normal/Flying for neutral who are immune to HP Ground/Shadow Ball.
It also hits Dark harder, which is useful if you predict Absol to come in and try Pursuit trap you or set up as you switch out fearing the Sucker Punch.
If Linoone Belly Drums, it can Seed Bomb Golem down to 1HP then use Extreme Speed.
If Linoone went after Golem, which it wont, it doesn't let you skip Golems turn
Golem switches into Belly Drum
Linoone Seed Bombs triggering Sturdy
Golem EQs killing Linoone
Golem takes 6.25% from Rocks.
You get 1/16th life back from Leftovers.
Hai Protect.
metang with full HP/defence investment with evolite takes about 3-4 hits too kill, it's a pretty safe bet. 33-39%, alternatively after the first hit metang can safely set up reflect and then beat linoone 1 on 1, I realise that after this metang is practically useless but hey...
canno
formerly The Reptile
I know, I fucked that post up. :\
Ok, it's a KO without Reflect up for Linoone, my bad. I think you need to have up Reflect if you're using Linoone in the first place though...
canno
formerly The Reptile
Rotom-F used to be amazing, however, not that hail is gone, he has to rely on Blizzard for Ice STAB, which is pretty inaccuracy.
Offensive Regice could work. Unfortunately, he's slow as fuck, with 50 Base Speed.
with regards to linoone, as long as you assert a decent amount of offensive pressure, linoone won't get the chance to set up, a fast taunt can also end its sweep prematurely, as can burning it, paralysing it is sort of a lesser option but if you have a sturdy rock or a ghost pokemon you can beat it.
I think the linoone situation is very hard too anlayse by simply using theory, it needs to be tested in practice first before we all jump to massive conclusions.
EDIT: One final point on the linoone issue, quagsire ignores belly drum via unaware and is 2HKOED by seed bomb, maxing out at 60% damage, so you have a chance to take it out.
I think the linoone situation is very hard too anlayse by simply using theory, it needs to be tested in practice first before we all jump to massive conclusions.
EDIT: One final point on the linoone issue, quagsire ignores belly drum via unaware and is 2HKOED by seed bomb, maxing out at 60% damage, so you have a chance to take it out.
Thank God someone found a way to end that.
Could Fridge-tom still run a SubSplit set? I don't think he's completely lost his viability without Hail. Blizzard is kinda shaky, but so is the accuracy on moves like Stone Edge and Focus Blast and you still see people relying on them.
canno
formerly The Reptile
I think the SubSplit set should still be viable, but not as good as some other SubSplitters since Ice/Electric is horrible defensive typing (thank god for levitate).
He's definitely still viable, but he's not as good as he used to be, due to blizzard having bad accuracy (It is as reliable as Focus Miss, but people use that because most don't have a better option for a fighting-type move. I know I would run Aura Sphere in a heartbeat if some Focus Blast pokemon had access to it). The issue he has is a miss is pretty much the end of him, seeing as Ice/Electric is horrible defensive typing.
I know this is probably a stupid thing to ask, but does Hidden Power-Ice get STAB boost? Not sure how STAB works with Hidden Power, but it would be a BP 105 move if it did get the boost. Not as much as Blizzard, but reliable I guess?
And does anyone think eviolite Lombre has any potential? It has pretty good special bulk, can SubSeed, and resists everything that Gorebyss can do, while also having STAB Giga Drain and Scald for healing and burning things respectfully (although it's SpAtk stat is pretty bad).
And does anyone think eviolite Lombre has any potential? It has pretty good special bulk, can SubSeed, and resists everything that Gorebyss can do, while also having STAB Giga Drain and Scald for healing and burning things respectfully (although it's SpAtk stat is pretty bad).
Yes it does.
Pwnobi used to run a defensive Rotom - H back in Gen 4 with HP Fire.
The only type that can't get a STAB HP is Normal.
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