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np: NU Stage 10 - Blackbird

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Jul 6, 2013.

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  1. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
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    song - recommended by treecko

    [​IMG]


    So, we got Mandibuzz from drops (though I'm sure most of you were already aware). There were some high hopes for a few other Pokemon, notably Klinklang, but nobody else cool fell through. I guess we should just be happy to be stuck with a Pokemon that manages to be slightly inferior to both Golbat and Skuntank. >:|

    This is likely the last tier shift before XY, so better get used to this metagame, folks. Feel free to use this thread to discuss anything about the new metagame, apart from cries of "pokemon x is broken". Suspect testing will be handled in approximately two weeks, at which time I will post a discussion thread and we will talk about what we think is broken, I will select what we are voting on, and everyone who has earned a vote can send their votes in to me. I am going to be much more lax than other tiers with the laddering requirement; there will be no Glicko2 or ACRE or deviation or whatever requirement. Instead, voters will primarily be chosen on the quality of their discussion in this thread and the suspect thread that follows. Additional quality posts in other threads will carry extra weight, but these two threads are essential. I will select voters; I have no criteria to shoot for like "ten good posts", so please don't worry about appealing to what I'm looking for. If you're interested in voting, just play the game and make an effort to talk about it in the forum and I'll weigh the quality of your posts. Generally, be active, post intelligently, and don't bury your points in the suspect thread under poor reasoning and "i don't like it" mentalities and you'll do fine.

    I'd like you to prove that you have a significant amount of experience playing NU, though, so I'm going to request that you have at least 100-125 (recent!) battles in NU and you provide proof of this to me. Obviously you should have a good win ratio... considering the quality of the ladder, if you don't have at least a roughly 75% win ratio, I would continue working on the ladder until you hit that point.

    Have fun discussing n_n
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2013
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  2. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    so much hate at Mandibuzz its not even that bad. Mandibuzz is super duper cool and better than Skuntank. Right now I'm loving TOUNCHER, Muk is super cool because it has great special bulk, shadow sneak and tounching everything that moves.

    I really dont think anything is overpowerd in this meta, its really balanced like NU has always been. Jynx is a top tier threat, but is checked by a lot of great Pokemon like Kanga, Tauros, Touncher, Metang (and more) so it isnt bad at all.

    Anyways use Muk its super cool :)
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  3. The Quasar

    The Quasar
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    I think the use of Mandibuzz can find the right niche because it could show to prove a excellent alternative to Skuntank, perhaps really even better than it. its typing is really good, its immunity make it really annoying, especially with Garbodor. I don't think it's broken, but definitely to evaluate it since you can use its features and its goods defensive stats.

    I think everything is focused on the use of the combo Taunt/U-Turn for a free switchin, without danger of boosting and entry-hazard. I still believe that it can be also a great weather supporter; in the coming days I would like to perform also some tests in this direction.
  4. Hollywood

    Hollywood ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ Chugga Chugga! ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    I think that Mandibuzz is a really cool Pokemon, and I look forward to trying it out on the ladder. For now though, I think the main reason for all the Mandibuzz hate is that it's not such an obvious Pokemon to play with; when Primeape dropped from RU, everyone had a pretty good idea on what sets would work for it in NU based on its more popular sets in RU, but with Mandibuzz, I don't think it's that easy. Couple that with how much most people who play NU regularly love offense, and you've pretty much got your reasoning.

    I still prefer Golbat over Mandibuzz most of the time, but I can very much see the differences between the two, which I posted in the Mandibuzz discussion thread. Really, I think that the biggest thing that our black bird has over Golbat is Foul Play. It's just such a fantastic move to have, and combined with Mandibuzz's great Speed for a defensive Pokemon, it can really help it to beat out things that may otherwise give it trouble. Slower offensive Pokemon usually don't want to take a Foul Play—Golurk, for example, is OHKOed! And faster offensive Pokemon hoping to switch into a Taunt or a Roost can be OHKOed as well.

    I also want to talk about some underrated Pokemon that have been doing really well for me lately. The first one is RestTalk Klang. When Cherub Agent first brought it up on IRC, I thought, nah, that surely must be dead weight outside of taking some neutral hits. It's really easy to think this way too; mono-Steel coverage is really terrible. But unlike Pokemon such as SubBU Braviary and CM Musharna, it really doesn't even need to boost its defenses to be effective. People usually aren't worried about having coverage moves for Steel-types on their team, so a lot of people are unprepared for it. On top of that, Klang is surprisingly bulky with the right investment. It can set up against so many things in this metagame, and thanks to the boosts in Speed that Shift Gear provides, you don't even have to set up /too/ much to beat out offensive teams. I know some people were looking forward to trying out Klinklang in NU, but if you try Klang, you want be disappointed!

    The other one I wanted to bring up was Rotom-Frost. I've been playing around with its SubSplit set since STABmons corrupted the ladder when I ran Sub/Pain Split/ICE BEAM/Thunderbolt (seriously it ruled), but even with Blizzard>Ice Beam, it's been a great member of my team. I run Blizzard over HP Ice because with Sub, you have more room for error with misses and such. It's really effective because it's so hard to wall, and even if your opponent does have something to wall it, if you are able to come in on something you can force out, you can set up a Substitute against it and Pain Split against whatever comes in to wall you. Even if you don't get a chance to set up a Substitute, Rotom-F still hits really hard with Life Orb. Obviously it still struggles against the occasional Piloswine, but to be honest, with Piloswine's huge decline in usage on the ladder, this isn't really a big deal. It's a pretty cool and totally unconventional wallbreaker that I'd totally recommend.
  5. wiitle

    wiitle Daughter of a back-alley doctor
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    Honestly, I've underestimated Mandibuzz quite a bit. It is by no means a top tier mon, however it does what it does very well. It takes random hits so well and its support movepool is really good. It can often find a place on a balanced spike stacking team thanks to its ability to shuffle around the opposing team with whirlwind and tank random hits directed at the faster more offensive mons. It unfortunately does not sport a fighting resist like Golbat but it trades that ability to be immune to psychic attacks. All in all, it does not deserve the hate it has been receiving.

    Touncher is a ridiculously cool mon and props to Zeb for hyping it up so people actually started using it. Its poison jab+poison touch combo leads to some funny poison shenanigans and it actually hits pretty hard while being an excellent check to things like serperior. Another really cool thing about it is that you dont even need to worry about jynx coming in and revenging it because shadow sneak completely wrecks it.

    Another really cool mon I've been using this meta is Swanna, a mon that ebeast got me hooked on. Its subroost offensive set is really cool and provides a great water check especially to physical Samurott because it resists all of its moves and can outspeed and hit hard with hurricane (which is also a really cool move thanks to that handy confusion chance). Substitute helps ease prediction and punishes switches while also avoiding things like Toxic from Alomomola, essentially shutting it down. It even has a base 98 speed which is really helpful considering how many mons aim to outspeed the base 95s.
  6. moonbase

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    Mandibuzz is one bulky motherfucker.


    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Torrent Samurott Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 325-383 (76.83 - 90.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Compared to


    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Torrent Samurott Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 281-331 (79.6 - 93.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    A bit more bulk with a love or hate typing. Lets see what happens with the usage stats.
  7. Plus

    Plus been cookin with the sauce
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    I've been using a SubRoost Mandibuzz set thanks to some persuasion from my good friend Fuzznip, and it is ridiculously hard to kill off. Mandibuzz does this well because it has Leftovers recovery and a very potent attack in Foul Play. I've also fiddled around with some Knock Off and Whirlwind variants, but I keep coming back to SubRoost with Toxic simply because of how it punishes many defensive Pokemon such as Alomomola, and makes choiced users think twice about using Earthquake, such as Golurk. I use it mainly as a bulky pivot to an offensive core of things like Scolipede and Jynx (which I don't understand why it isn't used as much), and works best in tandem with Spikestacking.

    Golbat is probably better for most other things, but Mandibuzz, from the matches I've already played using this set, does the Subroost strategy extremely well. I've yet to use this variant on a more defensive team, as I typically like using more offensive teams when laddering, but I'll probably give it a go before this round ends. Mandibuzz is a much better pokemon than I gave it credit for, and I expect an increase in its usage once more people see how good it is.
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  8. VoltTurn

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    I see a lot of Mandibuzz vs. Golbat, but one thing that Mandibuzz has over the annoying bat is (not just bulk) but the Psychic immunity. This allows it to (I use Taunt/ U-Turn/ Foul Play/ Roost) stop cold the annoying pivot Musharna set as well as the occasional Kadabra. I've been using it in a Golurk/ Licki/ Mandi core with a physically defensive set, and it really doesn't disappoint. The only weakness I know of (special waters) is covered by Jynx.

    Speaking of physically defensive Mandi, it's a whole hell of a lot more useful than specially defensive. With that amazing 110/105 bulk, you can prevent hazards from even mons like Gigalith, who barely has a chance to 2HKO you... with two 5-turn Rock Blasts. Seriously, this mon is great.
  9. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I find that Mandibuzz suffers quite a bit of 4MSS. Roost is a given, and Taunt is recommended as it better defines its niche, but choosing between Toxic, Whirlwind, Foul Play and Brave Bird can be tough. Toxic forms an evil combo with Taunt and reliable recovery to screw up almost any wall; Whirlwind is more than usable in Buzz's hands thanks to her sheer bulk; Foul Play makes Buzz one of the best Golurk counters in the tier; Brave Bird allows Buzz to target Taunt Serperior, Scolipede and Fightimg-types, as well as physically inept (both Attack and Defense) pokemon such as Jynx, Roselia, Kadabra and Liepard. Other moves can include Knock Off, U-turn and Substitute, making the choice even harder.
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  10. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent how lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf
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    I have to say, Mandibuzz has really surprised me. I really thought it would be a below average Pokemon, but after fiddling out with some sets (ew Nasty Plot) I've found the one that fits me like a second skin: Taunt, Toxic, Roost, Foul Play. The EVs are really customizable and I haven't yet found an ideal one, but I've mainly just invested in special bulk, but really, a physically defensive Mandibuzz is just as viable. Does anyone have some sort of cool mixed Defenses spread?

    Anyway with this set Mandibuzz is an awesome stallbreaker, which is a playstyle that I have always personally found really difficult to deal with. Taunt has such beautiful synergy with Toxic, as it prevents Substitutes, Heal Bells, Rests and recovery. It also means that the opponent can no longer set up on Mandi to try and power through her with sheer force, and this again allows her to stall them out. Roost is obviously a no brainer on such a defensive Pokemon. I definetly prefer Foul Play to Brave Bird, as Mandibuzz shouldn't be using its dreadful Attack. Foul Play also does beautifully against Golurk, especially when you consider that Mandibuzz can pretty much freely switch into it. It also makes handling Misdreavus a lot easier, and does stuff like KOing Jynx, which Brave Bird cannot. Really, Brave Bird is only useful to beat NUs Fighting types, which in my opinion Mandibuzz does poorly against anyway. Toxic powers up Guts Gurdurr, and as Mandibuzz is faster, it gets hit super effectively when it roosts. Sawk can 2HKO with Close Combat, Stone Edge and Ice Punch, and it outspeeds. Mandibuzz doesn't even have a Fighting resist anyway, so Foul Play's utility is just too good to give up. I'd much rather run physically defensive pivot musharna alongside it to take on these Pokemon (and which i have done :P)
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  11. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    My only question now is what Mandibuzz is used for outside of stallbreaking, and what EV spread would be suited for it. It's weaknesses are bothersome when it comes to walling most special threats, whereas its lack of resistances means it doesn't do a stellar job in handling physical threats. Does Buzz rely on its sheer bulk alone to stand up to threats such as Charizard or Scolipede? Is there an optimum or ideal mixed bulky spread that Buzz can use?
  12. wiitle

    wiitle Daughter of a back-alley doctor
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    With Punchshroom's question, Mandibuzz's main weakness really comes to light. Mandibuzz does have the sheer bulk to take hits from both Charizard AND Scolipede...without rocks. The main problem facing our new vulture friend is definitely the prevalence of stealth rock, turning many 3hkos into 2hkos, removing the most appealing aspect of Mandibuzz which is its sheer bulk. So, unless you are willing to run Wartortle (imo the best spinner we have this meta) or Mold Breaker Sawk or just something to keep the rocks off your side of the field, it's going to be really hard to play to Mandibuzz's strengths.
  13. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    what the fuck when did you two get back
    why are you playing my tier
    why didnt you say hi :<

    Anyway, Seismitoad, in my opinion, is far and away the best SR setter in the metagame right now. It has 2 immunities, only one weakness, and good all-around stats. In addition, it's the easiest way to deter opposing SR leads (except for Cradily I guess????) since it hits them all SE. The rain sweeper set is also really good and somewhat unexpected, since usually Ludicolo plays that role.

    I'm not sold on Mandiboner but that's probably because I've never been a huge fan of SubRoost mons in NU. I'll probably make a team with it (TREECKO GDI GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER). A good partner is probably going to be a mon that can lure out Ground or Psychic-types, maybe something like Scolipede or CB Sawk.
  14. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
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    I actually think Taunt + Toxic is the way to go on Mandi. Every time I ran SubToxic it did very well, but ultimately got set up on or failed to beat Pokemon like Audino + Garbodor (a few people watched me play against it and Mandibuzz really couldn't stop them from setting hazards or passing Wish around or just using Heal Bell) without extensively sitting there and spamming Foul Play. SubToxic certainly has its merits like being able to Toxic Mushy without having to poison yourself, but I really don't like how every hazard user in the tier comes in with little to no effort and just stacks hazards all over it, which really, really hurts for bulky offense or defensively minded teams.

    (It's still a really, really nice Golurk check to have though, considering how hard those are to find on bulky offense teams - OHKOing with Foul Play is just the best thing ever.)
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  15. Plus

    Plus been cookin with the sauce
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    Professor of B101

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    Haha, we started messing around on the ladder a couple weeks ago. Good to see you too man! =)

    My favorite SR users are probably Piloswine and Seismitoad. Eviolite Piloswine in particular's a great option to use on many teams because it can tank a hit and retaliate just as hard. Picking off weakened threats with Ice Shard is just great as well, such as Braviary and Altaria. I only started playing 5th gen NU 3 weeks ago, but the amount of SR weaknesses in this tier is really annoying. I'm not sure if it's a bad thing, as Scolipede and Jynx are really huge threats to NU and are held in check by entry hazards, but I absolutely hate how prevalent rocks are in this metagame considering how lackluster the spinners are. It seems that hyper offense would work best to this problem because of the nature of simply sacking pokemon and bringing others in, but I've seen some decent balance teams out there as well. I'm still iffy about using Stall if only because Jynx absolutely wrecks stall with the exception of a few pokemon like Metang and Munchlax, but I'm sure people more seasoned to this metagame have found something that works as I'm not convinced yet that Jynx is absolutely broken.

    I guess these pokemon are NU for a reason, because Stealth Rock makes me not want to touch a Charizard with a 20 meter stick. At least in OU I had a Forry or Starmie to spin away rocks for Volcarona and not be a complete liability, but when my best option is a Wartortle (because Armaldo's lackluster), I feel that most times more often than not spinning isn't needed, and two should really be the maximum amount of SR weak pokemon on a team without a spinner. And it sucks because it's really annoying when you have NFE mons with Eviolite whose HP is chipped gradually with every switch in, without any form of recovery. I mean, it's nice that there's a crapload of diversity in NU thanks to Eviolite -- it's just that their wear and tear is annoying to deal with.

    That's my rant about NU for now, and most of you guys posting in this thread probably know everything I've talked about already and more -- just wanted to voice my two cents about my opinion on the metagame from an objective standpoint. From what I've played at least, NU is a very fun metagame and is even better than it was 4th gen.
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  16. Hollywood

    Hollywood ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ Chugga Chugga! ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    Yeah, I feel like you pretty much pegged the NU hazard situation completely. I will add though that Charizard can be even more of a threat because of Stealth Rock. With Blaze triggering after only two switches into Stealth Rock, you can using something like Scarf Charizard and its Blaze to your advantage, switching in once to revenge kill something and then towards the end of the game to clean up with Blaze-boosted Flamethrower or Fire Blast. This is a really cool quality of Charizard, and Blaze really only makes Charizard a much bigger threat.

    NU is a really cool metagame because of how different it is though. I know some people really don't like that we have don't have any good Pokemon that have Rapid Spin (Wartortle makes for a decent spinner, but otherwise there'd be no reason to use it over another defense wall), but I find it kind of endearing. It forces you to handle hazards in other ways, be this through applying offensive pressure to the opponent's team so that he cannot set hazards or through Taunt users or however else you can handle them. I know that using Rapid Spin to take care of hazards would be more ideal, but it's just one of the qualities of NU that sets it apart from the other tiers! ☺
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  17. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Actually Zeb, Substitute does not block Synchronize from Mushy, as I have seen firsthand. I feel that Buzz can do a good job mixed walling if players choose that option, given her well rounded bulk. Agreed that Buzz is THE best switch-in to Golurk ever, what with recovery and a way to OHKO without trouble, as she can even be EVed to survive Banded Ice Punch after SR while still being primarily specially defensive. Heck yeah.
  18. Infernis

    Infernis

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    I don't know about switching in to banded ice punch. With the addition of Mandibuzz, I've been EV'ing my CB Golurks to outspeed it. Ice Punch on the switch will deal more than half, and then you use it again to finish it off. Max SpD 'Buzz takes some pretty hefty damage, to the point of being a possible OHKO after rocks, but it can even 2HKO the most bulky physical variants.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 298-352 (70.44 - 83.21%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 218-258 (51.53 - 60.99%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO

    Mandibuzz can run 56 speed to outrun it in turn, but it seriously compromises its bulk. Also, barely anyone on the ladder cares about speed creep. :rolleyes:
  19. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    248 HP EVs and 116 Def EVs are enough to survive CB Ice Punch after SR without the aid of a +Def nature (leaving 144 EVs for SDef). If Buzz chooses to run speed, she'd probably be better off with Impish off the bat, saving up a whopping 100 EVs for Defense (only 16 EVs needed), put 56 EVs into Speed and dump the remaining 188 EVs into SDef.
  20. NGC-2024

    NGC-2024

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    No love for Nasty Plot Mandibuzz? Okay, she has low special attack.. But do you know how easy it is to get boosts? There are plenty of pokes in the meta right now that can't break her sub in one hit and not a whole lot of mons can straight OHKO her. Going off of Punchshroom's EVs I'd guess the set would look something like:

    Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
    Trait: Big Pecks
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 188 SAtk / 56 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    - Nasty Plot
    - Dark Pulse / Air Slash

    Still debating on Dark Pulse vs Air Slash, myself. But I like Dark Pulse for Golurk and the annoying psychics running around
  21. Infernis

    Infernis

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    CB Sawk's Stone Edge can actually OHKO after SR if you decide to go for 16+ defense. Actually, so can Close Combat.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mandibuzz: 300-354 (70.92 - 83.68%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mandibuzz: 270-318 (63.82 - 75.17%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    You need 136 Def to guarantee survival after SR if Sawk is locked into Stone Edge, or 20 to stop the KO from Close Combat. Just a little thing, but it could save Mandibuzz users some grief.
  22. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Those EVs are mainly to take Golurk's attacks, not Sawk's. Buzz can't beat Sawk without Brave Bird anyway.
  23. Infernis

    Infernis

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    True, but there's no reason not to prepare for either. Sawk is still the second most common 'mon in the tier, and 4 EVs isn't too much more investment. After that Close Combat, a 184 SpA Mandibuzz as NGC described (with the change for a bit more defense) would thus get this calc.

    184 SpA Mandibuzz Air Slash vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 252-296 (86.59 - 101.71%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

    Enough to possibly KO even before hazards.
  24. Ashley11

    Ashley11

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    I have been using this set for Mandibuzz, and i think its really good to use on the ladder, and it checks many top threats in NU.​

    Mandibuzz@Leftovers​
    Ability: Big Pecks​
    Nature: Careful​
    Evs: 240 hp 252 spDef 16 speed​
    Taunt​
    Toxic​
    Roost​
    Foul Play​
    So, this thing beats all kinds of threats like Ludicolo, Kangaskhan, Sawk, Primape, Jynx, Gorebyss, Exeggutor, Haunter, Musharna, Other Mandibuzz, and a lot more that i didnt mention. It can wall ludicolo ice beams easily and toxic stall it, walls physical hits well too unless they are banded hits aka banded sawk, can take a jynx ice beam and come back with a one hit ko foul play, wall exegg and mushy, it speed creeps mandibuzz, and im pretty sure after a shell smash foul play will one hit ko a gorebyss if im not mistaken. Its a great wallbreaker and can completely stop walls at their prime with taunt and toxic. i speed creep on mandibuzz so you can pretty much put what ever evs you like split between hp and speed as long as you are still walling things. It literally beats over half of the entire tier, and i am loving this thing so far.​
    The only thing you have to put in mind is that you need a reliable way to keep stealth rocks away from your end of the field, or these calcs arent viable, so keep that in mind when using specially defensive mandibuzz. You also might need some heal bell support to keep away toxic.​

    Calcs :]​
    252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 212-252 (50.35 - 59.85%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO​
    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 174-205 (41.33 - 48.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​
    252 Atk Primeape Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 180-212 (42.75 - 50.35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 367-432 (87.17 - 102.61%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO​
    252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 298-352 (70.78 - 83.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
    Sidfrid likes this.
  25. Namso

    Namso
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    Oh stop it, you. /blush

    Hi tennis! I missed your tennisface!

    But really, Mandibuzz is one of the coolest Pokemon I've used in NU so far. I just find it to be a really unique Pokemon that can execute a few sets really, really well, specifically SubRoost. People say that it's contested by Golbat since it's faster and probably just as bulky as Mandibuzz with Eviolite, but there are two things that Golbat would die for: Leftovers recovery and Foul Play. Mandibuzz has the overall bulk to sponge a myriad of attacks from offensively weak Pokemon and the Leftovers recovery just makes it such a freakin' nuisance to take out. That alone makes Mandibuzz, in my experience, a far better staller than Golbat ever will become. STAB Foul Play also makes Mandi that much better. It's so nice seeing the abundant Golurk get crushed by it in one hit and pretty much any Pokemon with high Attack getting a huge chunk of their health taken out, even Pokemon that resist it (I'm looking at you, Sawk). Taunt is also cool to use over Substitute, but I feel so much more satisfaction and joy when I pop Substitute when something stupid like Alomomola tries to use Toxic, which fails, and then proceeds to flail in desperation as it tries to puncture through Big Bird's mighty bulwark. It's seriously so amusing.

    I know Plus runs a far more defensive set than I do, but I opted to go for a faster spread to ensure Mandi makes the first move on Pokemon with 269 Speed (neutral base 85 Speed) and less, such as Adamant Pinsir and Sawk, Modest Seismitoad, and Samurott. Also, because of the relatively high Speed and bulk of Mandi, it can pretty much never be OHKOed by any non-boosted attack, super effective or not, allowing it to Toxic the enemy and stall it out with Roost and Substitute, blocking the super effective effect of Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Stone Edge, and the like.

    I've also used a defensive set with Knock Off on one of my stall teams, but I just wasn't as impressed with it as I was with SubRoost. Don't get me wrong, it's a very effective set, but I feel like Mandi is a lot more threatening running SubRoost than anything else. It's just so damn good.
    Pocket likes this.
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